Question about laminate bending

[Mike Henderson]

I've done some laminate bending for a few projects, such as the rockers for a rocking chair. I was talking with a woodworking friend about laminate bending and he asked me what glue I was using. When I told him I was using Titebond glue, he commented that Titebond was a poor choice because it would creep. He recommended urea formaldehyde glue (plastic resin glue).

What's your experience with glue for laminate bending? It's hard to imagine Titebond creeping that much.

Is my friend blowing smoke at me?

Mike

[Chris Dodge]

I use a urea formaldehyde glue for all of my bending so I can't say from experience if titebond creeps. Urea formaldehyde works great though.

[Lee DeRaud]

I would have thought that the relatively short open time of Titebond would be the real problem in that application.

[Vaughn McMillan]

No smoke, Mike. Like you, I'd heard about Titebond II creeping, but hadn't seen it show up in anything I'd built. Then, about a month ago I did a cutting board glue-up where part was glued with plastic resin glue (Weldwood/DAP) and the other part was glued with Titebond II. Fast forward a month, and even though the board surface was sanded down to 400 grit, you can now feel each of the Titebond joints, whereas the plastic resin joints are still "invisible" to the touch. Keep in mind, this is in a flat piece...I suspect a ccurved piece under stress could exhibit more creep than this.

As an added bonus, the plastic resin glue has a bit longer working time, which helps reduce the need to rush things along when gluing everything together.

Hope this helps -

- Vaughn

[Steve Clardy]

I laminate up staircase bending rails, curved shoes, etc, and have no problem using Titebond original glue.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Mike, I used polyurathane glue for chairs. It was a pain with all the foaming and everything, but it gave me the open time I needed to arrange all the laminations. On the recommendations of people here, I'm switching to the plastic resin glues in the future.

[Don Henthorn Smithville, TX]

I have made at least a dozen or more Walnut Lincoln rockers with laminated curved upper and lower back rails using Titebond II and never had a problem.

[Richard Wolf]

For all my bent laminations I use Uni Bond 800. It is a urea formaldehyde glue which has a long open time and work great for laminations and better in vacuum bags.

Richard

[Jamie Buxton]

For many years I made bent laminations with Elmer's yellow glue. I never noticed the curves moving. However, I've read the same argument against PVA, and now use urea-formaldehyde.

[Keith Christopher]

I have had no problems using Weldwood. With titebond it simply doesn't have the open time I need so I don't use it.

[Dev Emch]

Your buddy is absolutely correct with some caveats.

First, titebond is not the glue to use in general. If your curves are shallow and your lamina very thin, you can get away with it. The more you bend and the more you squeeze into shape, the more residual energy is left behind. Something has to power this creep phenomenom right?

When I can get away with it, I prefer to use resourcinol. Its vintage epoxy that cleans up with soap and water and is waterproof once cured. They used it during WWII to build wooden boats and the mosquito bomber. The drawback is that it leaves a dark red glue line. Not a problem with walnut but visiable with maple. Its also used to glue the strips of bamboo flyrods together because the lack of creep does not affect the resulting action of the rod.

Another possible option would be plastic resin glues as described but I have not used these persay. Lastly, there is always one of the epoxy glues that may work.

[tod evans]

pmichael, your buddy is not blowing smoke. just about any glue other than pva will work for bent laminations. i generally use polyurethane glue if i want a fairly quick set and a urea if i want a slower set. i don`t use much epoxy because of the cost and no real benefit for what i do......02 tod

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I'll use plastic resin glue in the future.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I had the privilege of visiting with Sam Maloof today and took the opportunity to ask him what glue he uses for his laminate bending. He said that he uses Titebond III for dark woods and Titebond I or II for light woods because Titebond III leaves a dark line.

While his rockers are not bent that much, the slats on the cradle (see picture) are bent pretty tight. Of course, they're pinned on both ends after he installs them.

BTW, he gets $40,000 for a cradle and had at least six in process while I was there. He is also building a dining table and 14 chairs. The table is $100,000 and the chairs are $20,000 each. I'd be happy to sell one chair for that.

Mike

P.S. Sam is 90 years old now!

[Lee DeRaud]

I'd heard about Titebond II creeping, but hadn't seen it show up in anything I'd built. Then, about a month ago I did a cutting board glue-up where part was glued with plastic resin glue (Weldwood/DAP) and the other part was glued with Titebond II. Fast forward a month, and even though the board surface was sanded down to 400 grit, you can now feel each of the Titebond joints, whereas the plastic resin joints are still "invisible" to the touch.I've had instances where I thought that was happening and others where it didn't.

Upon further review, the places where I could feel the joints were between different woods, never where the same wood was glued to itself. (Note: this is not a cross-grain situation.) I don't know if that qualifies as "glue creep", but clearly if the pieces at a glue joint are expanding/contracting at different rates, something is going to give. Personally, I'd just as soon it was the glue, and "creep" is certainly a more graceful failure mode than "break".

In Sam Maloof's case, it's usually a one-species glue-up, although he does sometimes put an accent strip in the rockers. And the open time isn't as much of an issue for him as it would be for most of us: he typically has about 6-8 hands involved in clamping up those things.

[Al Willits]

fwiw David Marks on his Wood Worker show on the DIY program just did a project with laminates and recommended the plastic resin glue over the yellow glues because of creeping and glue set up time.

A

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

No he is not blowing smoke. Polyvinyl gloes are prone to cold flow ( creep). They are just plastics and when you push on a plactis it will over time respond by flowing in the direction of the presure.

Epoxy can present the same problem to some degree. Some more than others, some not too badly at all.

Hyde is excellent as it tends not to flow. Ureformaldahide is excellent for the same reasons.

The phenol glues they use in Plywood construction are great but quote hard to do out of a factory

Another option might be to use a caltalyzing resin.