Dovetail waste help sought

[Tony Wilkins]

As an outgrowth of my dovetail guru question I thought I'd ask about my stumbling block. It sounds silly but clearing out the waste has been what has traditionally given me trouble. I have tried both using a fret saw and a chisel only. I went through a full package of Pegas blades and didn’t get a saw done when I used my fancy Knew Concepts fret saw.* Chiseling: the first time I gave it too much Welly one joint and went paste the baseline. Then I used a different wood** to go to soft pine and it crumbled like anybody’s business. It just seems that though I know how I should do it, I always screw up in some small (or large) way.

Help me Obe Wan?

* I got lots of suggestions of what I was doing wrong but it was beyond me to actually make my hands do what I needed. I do now have a coping saw and wooden turning saw.

** It was very thickly planed 4/4 birch. This is also what I tried the fret saw on.

[steven c newman]

I have watched Paul Sellers do his dovetails.....and he always cuts a little back from the baseline....from each face...until the chops meet in the middle. Peels a bit up to the knifed line, to give the bevel a bit of room to push waste away...He also leaves a bit of a "porch" out on the end, for support. Once 99% of the waste is gone, he then pares away the remaining 1%...

The ONLY time I use a coping saw...I use it like a rasp, to clean and level things out...coping saw blade can get into places a normal chisel can't...

A fret saw is nice ( and some are $$$) but really useless in doing half blind sockets...

Was working with 3/8" thick Maple on the last project...

[Jim Koepke]

4/4 is pretty thick stock to get any speed out of a fret saw. One would have to cut slow and careful to prevent snapping a blade.

My experience with the Knew Concepts Fret Saw was very much different than yours. The Knew Concepts saw made it easier to get blades up to a respectable tension, they should ping when plucked. I haven't purchased any Pegasus blades yet. The blades at Lee Valley have worked well. The blade life with the KC saw is much longer than what my other fret saws have done.


Then I used a different wood** to go to soft pine and it crumbled like anybody’s business.

This sounds like your chisel might need a good sharpening. One test of an edge's sharpness is how it pares softwood:

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Trying to take all the wast in one cut can cause crumbling.

If you can come up with a couple spare 1/4" chisel you might want to make a pair of skew chisels:

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These are good for getting into the area at the bottom of pins & tails.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

4/4 is pretty thick stock to get any speed out of a fret saw. One would have to cut slow and careful to prevent snapping a blade.

My experience with the Knew Concepts Fret Saw was very much different than yours. The Knew Concepts saw made it easier to get blades up to a respectable tension, they should ping when plucked. I haven't purchased any Pegasus blades yet. The blades at Lee Valley have worked well. The blade life with the KC saw is much longer than what my other fret saws have done.



This sounds like your chisel might need a good sharpening. One test of an edge's sharpness is how it pares softwood:

486307

Trying to take all the wast in one cut can cause crumbling.

If you can come up with a couple spare 1/4" chisel you might want to make a pair of skew chisels:

486308

These are good for getting into the area at the bottom of pins & tails.

jtk

Think my issue with the fret saw was the lack of control/feeling in my hand but who knows. I had the same thought with with sharpness and it would work for about one socket and I’d have to sharpen again. Of course the particular white pine I had was super, super marshmallowy.

[David Bassett]

OK, a lot going on. Maybe I can offer some insight into some of it.

First, I've never used a fret saw, but with coping saws I have to fight my inclinations and reduce pressure on the blade and just let it cut at it's own rate. If I press "down", (to the side when clearing dovetails,) any number of bad things can happen.

Next, with a Knew Concepts saw, since they're stiffer, it's tempting to cut on the familiar push stroke. The saws do tension the blade better and allow this. But, for me, that only works while I can maintain perfect control. I am much more successful when I cut on the pull stroke, even with the Knew coping saw. (It only feels weird until you have practiced it for a while.)

Lastly, the go to blade these days seems to be Pegas. But which tooth pitch is recommended often seemed to be different from what was sold when I was looking. I've found the 18 tpi skip-tooth model to work well for me. TFWW sells it, and I see LV now sells Pegas blades and has it too. I was privileged to take a class with Chris Gochnour and he hoards a stash of (Craftsman?) blades he bought over 20 years before and are now discontinued. But he grabbed my saw to demonstrate an answer to a question and like the Pegas I was using well enough to take note of the brand and model.

[David Bassett]

Think my issue with the fret saw was the lack of control/feeling in my hand but who knows. I had the same thought with with sharpness and it would work for about one socket and I’d have to sharpen again. Of course the particular white pine I had was super, super marshmallowy.

Oh, another thought. I think Derek has an article on his website about making a new handle for a Knew Concepts saw. Maybe a different size or shape would help?

[Thomas McCurnin]

If you are crushing fibers, then your chisel is not sharp enough. I think I would concentrate on using only a chisel until I got that method down, then move on to more sophisticated methods, like a Coping Saw, Dovetail Alignment Board, Offset Method, and the like.

I spent a week learning Paul Sellers' method, so I am partial to that.

[Derek Cohen]

As an outgrowth of my dovetail guru question I thought I'd ask about my stumbling block. It sounds silly but clearing out the waste has been what has traditionally given me trouble. I have tried both using a fret saw and a chisel only. I went through a full package of Pegas blades and didn’t get a saw done when I used my fancy Knew Concepts fret saw.* Chiseling: the first time I gave it too much Welly one joint and went paste the baseline. Then I used a different wood** to go to soft pine and it crumbled like anybody’s business. It just seems that though I know how I should do it, I always screw up in some small (or large) way.

Help me Obe Wan?

* I got lots of suggestions of what I was doing wrong but it was beyond me to actually make my hands do what I needed. I do now have a coping saw and wooden turning saw.

** It was very thickly planed 4/4 birch. This is also what I tried the fret saw on.


Hi Tony

Using the Knew Concepts fretsaw should set you up for easy waste removal. I should be claiming some authority here since I have used one longer than any other person, with the exception of the late Lee Marshall, since he and I developed the saw together for woodworkers. If bored, that story is here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html

Anyway, I set mine up with the Pegas blades to cut on the pull. You do NOT use these saws to cut on the push. Secondly, you hold the fretsaw the saw way you hold a dovetail saw - very light grip - and you let the teeth do the work …. if the blade is bending, you are applying too much force.

There are two steps to achieve easy waste removal:

The first is to undercut the baseline and create a chisel wall ….

https://i.postimg.cc/P5dHvxHs/26310615-7578-4-A59-9322-1-BFAA4632-CEF.png

Only THEN do you use the fretsaw to remove the waste. And you do this leaving about 1mm above the baseline …

https://i.postimg.cc/T3Q6V62y/975-E375-B-80-F6-4-ACC-A6-DD-075336725-EC0.png

This is the result …

https://i.postimg.cc/DyrFzGtP/87-F5-FDD2-CE85-445-B-AD3-E-8-EFE876-FC175.png

If you attempted to add the chisel wall after cutting away the waste, you might struggle to do so since you now lack enough of a sight line. Do the chisel wall first!

The purpose of the chisel wall is to prevent the chisel being pushed back over the baseline. I mentioned this in your other post (which if you had read, these points would be obvious :) ).

When you chop out the waste, the obvious thing is that you need sharp chisels, but this is not enough to prevent crumbling. You must take THIN slices …

https://i.postimg.cc/v86bpkhj/98917-E6-A-D64-B-413-F-A846-2-E4-E446-A4-AAF.png

If you do all this, I am confident that you will end up with precision dovetails. Someone wrote that good dovetails require practice. I think that is nonsense - I never practice. What I do is apply rules that involve release cuts and secure boundaries. I learned a lot of this from David Charlesworth. Try and get hold of the last two editions of the Quercus magazine, in which I have articles about his heritage.

EDIT TO ADD: note that you only chop halfway from each side. Also, I work from the non-show side first. This protects the show side from an unfortunate slippage of the chisel blade.

Lastly, I made a godawful video demonstrating the technique with fretsaw …


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M6O4rY_0zQs

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Richard Coers]

I'll suggest that wood species is never the problem. All wood can be sawn and cleaned up with a chisel. Of course some species are easier than others, but proper tooth count on the saw blade and sharpness of the chisel make the task work.

[Mike Henderson]

Oh, another thought. I think Derek has an article on his website about making a new handle for a Knew Concepts saw. Maybe a different size or shape would help?

Here's a web page (https://mikes-woodwork.com/KnewHandle.htm) on making a new handle for the Knew Concepts fret saw.

I have not had any problems using the Knew Concepts fret saw to saw out dovetail waste.

Mike

[David Bassett]

Here's a web page (https://mikes-woodwork.com/KnewHandle.htm) on making a new handle for the Knew Concepts fret saw.

I have not had any problems using the Knew Concepts fret saw to saw out dovetail waste.

Mike

I'm sorry Mike, that's probably the page I so vaguely remembered. (My excuse is that I've never felt limited by the Knew Concept Saw's handle, just my own lack of skill, so I didn't need to remember your how to rehandle it article.)

[Tony Wilkins]

I’m not sure rehandling is necessary. As far as push vs pull, I’ve tried both directions but started pull and that’s been the predominant attempts.

[Derek Cohen]

Re-handling is helpful, even important, but not the vital issue in using the Knew Concept fretsaw.

Here is one of mine with old ones in the background ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XqbtT49X/KC10-zps7e29a5d2.jpg

Here's another I made, influenced by Blue Spruce ...

https://i.postimg.cc/m2bVvZYc/New-handle3.jpg
Regards from Perth

Derek

[Prashun Patel]

Non neander method: I use a pin router and a pattern bit. This gives the cleanest, sharpest bottoms with no blow out.

[Scott Clausen]

I have the Knew saws and tried that. I then watched Paul Sellers and tried that method with chisel only. I ended up liking Paul's method better for now but I often change my mind on what is best for me. At the end of the day it really came down to crisp knife or marking lines and sneaking back to that line with a chisel strike. I am far from perfect but can get away with it.

[Jason Buresh]

Someone wrote that good dovetails require practice. I think that is nonsense - I never practice. What I do is apply rules that involve release cuts and secure boundaries.

I would like to respectfully disagree.

In my opinion, dovetails, or any other joinery for that matter, all comes down to how well you can perform the fundamentals. Sawing to lines, layout of the joint, squareness of the stock. All these things contribute to the quality of your joint.

Sure there are guides and other techniques that can help, but no saw guide is going to help with a cupped board or poor layout.

I believe the best way to learn is repetition. The only way to do that is through practice.

A craftsman of your skill level, which I deeply respect, has these fundamentals mastered. Cutting a dovetail may not need to be practiced for someone of your caliber because you can repeatedly perform all the tasks accurately from your years of experience.

Aaron Franklin of Franklin BBQ in Austin Texas, the highest rated brisket in the country, said the only way to make good BBQ is by making bad BBQ first

[Jim Koepke]

Aaron Franklin of Franklin BBQ in Austin Texas, the highest rated brisket in the country, said the only way to make good BBQ is by making bad BBQ first

Another way of saying that is one has to learn from their mistakes.

People who haven't made mistakes probably haven't made much else. --not sure who said that

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I also disagree. It takes practice for some people. For others maybe not. For me it took and still takes much practice. I have searched for a silver bullet but for my time and way of working, none exists. Ymmv.

[James Pallas]

I don’t think you call it practice. More like a little warm up like a little shoot around before a basketball game. Just to make sure you’re on your game. It is especially so if you have changed something, a new or sharpened saw different bench height, things like that. Even different shoes can put you off a little. A chisel with a steeper bevel can put you past a baseline very quickly. That muscle memory is a very real thing.
Jim

[Derek Cohen]

What I am saying is that you have to consider what you must do. It is possible to break the task down to much smaller parts than you realise. Working with each part makes the task so much simpler, easier, and leads to accurate work. One can practice … and practice mistakes and repeat poor technique. That will not move you forward.

It is not so much about practice, but about practicing correct technique.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

I find I do need the practice as I tend to switch back and forth between dovetails, and Finger/Box Joints....so, each time, that first corner might look a little..rough...so...yes practice do help...

[Jason Buresh]

What I am saying is that you have to consider what you must do. It is possible to break the task down to much smaller parts than you realise. Working with each part makes the task so much simpler, easier, and leads to accurate work. One can practice … and practice mistakes and repeat poor technique. That will not move you forward.

It is not so much about practice, but about practicing correct technique.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I 100% agree it is more about practicing correct technique.

But you are failing to take into account experience. You can break down a task and memorize proper technique but muscle memory, fluidity, and confidence can only be gained through experience and practice.

There isn't a sports team or athlete that doesn't go through workouts, training, and practice before competing. Musicians and singers have to practice songs before going on stage. Surgeons use simulators and practice dummies before cutting open a patient. Even historically in the trades people started out as apprentices and journeymen before becoming master craftsman.

The more experience one has, the less one has to rely on practicing the fundamentals before attempting a particular task, but it is unrealistic to expect perfection without practice.

I agree it may be more beneficial to practice cutting plumb and square with a saw before attempting a dovetail, but even then when you go to cut a dovetail you have to hold the saw at angles, and there is no denying that muscle memory and experience can help improve your craftsmanship.

[Derek Cohen]

Jason, we will agree to disagree. We way I see it is that many are told to practice, practice, practice. Now I agree that practice is needed, but we amateurs may go for a spell between opportunities for (say) dovetailing. Many use this as a reason not to advance their skills, saying "what's the point - I do not do it often enough". My view is more positive, and probably appeals more to those with a little adventurousness. That is, each joint requires basic operations, which rely more on recognition of the steps than actual practice, per se. It is analytic rather than emotional. By-the-way, I do not cut dovetails all the time. The opportunity to do so is as much as the next person.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

Jason, we will agree to disagree. We way I see it is that many are told to practice, practice, practice. Now I agree that practice is needed, but we amateurs may go for a spell between opportunities for (say) dovetailing. Many use this as a reason not to advance their skills, saying "what's the point - I do not do it often enough". My view is more positive, and probably appeals more to those with a little adventurousness. That is, each joint requires basic operations, which rely more on recognition of the steps than actual practice, per se. It is analytic rather than emotional. By-the-way, I do not cut dovetails all the time. The opportunity to do so is as much as the next person.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Thanks for the clarification! After reading I don't think we are so far apart. I realize now I made it sound like I was suggesting that someone cut dovetails in every piece of scrap that passes through the shop to learn.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if you are new to cutting dovetails or even if you haven't cut them in a while or often, even if you understand the basics and steps of the joint there should be no shame in cutting a practice joint or even a warm up before starting your actual project.

And the more experience one has with their tools or basic techniques the less necessary it is to practice.

Some of my favorite time in the shop has been familiarizing myself with my tools too. Flattening a piece of scrap with my plane or sawing to lines. Being able to practice on a piece of wood without the pressure of it being used for a project eliminates the stress of making mistakes and gives you the experience without the risk.

[Jim Koepke]

there should be no shame in cutting a practice joint or even a warm up before starting your actual project.

As mentioned before, one thing noticed during my projects was the dovetails improved from the ones first to last ones cut.

One time a piece of 1X4 scrap was cut into two pieces and used for dovetail cutting. This did help me "warm up" to better dovetails as they were cut, examined, then cut off of the 1X4 pieces, dated, tossed into a box and then repeating the process. During the colder months they also were a good "warm up" when they were tossed into the wood stove.

The one time practice caused me to look at my mistakes, diagnose them and then correct them on the next set of dovetails cut. It did help to better understand the process of cutting the joint and improved my dovetail cutting since.

Now, if dovetails haven't been cut for a while it helps me to cut a few "warm up" joints to get my mind aligned.

This works for me. Others may find that focused thought on cutting a joint during their morning coffee or tea works for them.

Just like some of us learn from books and internet videos, others find taking a class from an instructor has helped them enormously.

Different paths to the same destination.

jtk

[steven c newman]

A "Practice" Piece..
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Would this be a "Learning Curve"?
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