Dovetail guru influence question

[Tony Wilkins]

I know this won’t apply to those of you who learned in person through family, job, etc,. For those of you who learned from the internet & one of the many gurus, which one did you follow? How has your practice evolved since?

with my health woes, I get to watch a lot more woodworking than I get to do. The good (and bad) if that is I’ve seen a lot of variations on how to cut dovetails - Charlesworth, Schwarz, Roy, Sellers, et al. I read Kirby on advice of a member here. I’ve played with a lot of the methods. There’s a lot of little nuances. An upcoming project will require a lot of dovetails (Monticello bookcases). I’m thinking of trying the full on Cosman 2.0 on the DTC I’m working on now. All that exposition to say that I’m curious of us internet learners if you stuck with the original method or evolved?

[steven c newman]

Roy Underhill, then Paul Sellers...then adjusted to match me limited skills...:rolleyes:

[Prashun Patel]

I learned this craft entirely from the Internet. Your method will ultimately be some hybrid of multiple techniques. I am partial to many of the techniques Derek Cohen (he has is own site) and Mike Pekovich (Fine Woodworking) talk about.

I ended up using a bandsaw and a jig for the tails, hand cutting the pins, and using a trim router to get flat bottomed pins, and paring the rest.

I suggest also that you will get wonderful tutelage right here. Just start a thread titled "Hand cut dovetails, how am I doing?" and post your pictures and questions. You'll get 10 great teachers giving you advice; you'll be smart enough to figure out what's right and relevant for yourself.

Dovetailing joints are like drywall joints. You have to practice and keep practicing. You'll probably get great by the end of your project, then not have to do it again for a few months, and then will have to practice again to get your legs back.

[Tony Wilkins]

I learned this craft entirely from the Internet. Your method will ultimately be some hybrid of multiple techniques. I am partial to many of the techniques Derek Cohen (he has is own site) and Mike Pekovich (Fine Woodworking) talk about.

…

I suggest also that you will get wonderful tutelage right here. Just start a thread titled "Hand cut dovetails, how am I doing?" and post your pictures and questions. You'll get 10 great teachers giving you advice; you'll be smart enough to figure out what's right and relevant for yourself.

Dovetailing joints are like drywall joints. You have to practice and keep practicing. You'll probably get great by the end of your project, then not have to do it again for a few months, and then will have to practice again to get your legs back.

Most Likely will post as I go along. Like most of my woodworking, it started with CS (though I also watched a bunch of Roy). There was a couple of tips from Sellers that really made my sawing tick. Of all things dovetailing, the one thing that I’ve never found comfort with is removing the waste. Ive tried chisel and fret saw and I always struggle for some unknown reason with both/either.

[Mark Rainey]

Ian Kirby's book is the best resource available. He starts with the basics and gradually advances. I know of no other quality, small, concise book on the subject.

[Tony Wilkins]

Ian Kirby's book is the best resource available. He starts with the basics and gradually advances. I know of no other quality, small, concise book on the subject.

Being a visual learner, I liked t(e book but I wish there was a video detailing his method in a walk-through.

[David Bassett]

... Dovetailing joints are like drywall joints. You have to practice and keep practicing. You'll probably get great by the end of your project, then not have to do it again for a few months, and then will have to practice again to get your legs back.

This!

A useful tip I picked up somewhere was mark your tails/pins then warm up in the waste before you cut to your lines. The transfer your marks for the pins/tails and practice the new angle in the waste before cutting those to the lines. Yes, it takes a little extra time, but you'll be able to make corrections and get a feel for the angles you need to hold to match before it counts, (and it make clearing the waste a little easier.) Of course you skip this step after your first dozen or so of the day.

[chuck van dyck]

Christian Becksvoort’s video by Fine Woodworking. There is no verbal explanation but just watching his process really helped me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7qDWkbyZEZQ

[Jim Koepke]

Kind of an echo of something from above. On my projects my tendency is to cut the dovetails that won't show first and work my way toward the ones on the show side.

Derek Cohen's website is at > http://www.inthewoodshop.com < a lot of good information there.

Here is a box project of mine where my experience with making dovetails was explained > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?259750

One major item learned since was how shop workers centuries ago would cut the sides of tails and pins beyond the baseline to make clearing the waste easier. One of the common problems with baseline gaps is the corners at the base of the pins not being fully removed. Cutting beyond the baseline meant workers getting paid by the piece could get work finished quicker.

Another practice that helped me get better was to cut a 1X4 in to two foot lengths and practice joining them together with dovetails. Then the joint would be cut off and done again. On each joint my errors would scrutinized for what could be done to improve the joint.

Here is a shot of some of my recent dovetails, dang it has been over a year:

486224

My tendency is to cut my pins & tails proud and then either shape them for their look or to trim them flush.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

I don’t think that there is one dovetailer guru who does it all the best. If you are able to recognise what is, or what is not, good technique, then you will borrow this-and-that from several. For example, I learned a lot from the early Rob Cosman (before his silly aids which aim to reduce the hand-involved work). I also learned from David Charlesworth, who was not a great handtool dovetailer, but was a great exponent of efficiency and precision.

Today I would immodestly say that I can hold my work up with good guys - which basically means that I get a decent fit 99% of the time off the saw and need minimal adjustments.

Break down dovetailing to determine what is needed.

For a start, the tools are important, but it is the hand and eye that dominate. How you hold a Western backsaw, and how you start a cut with either a Western or Eastern saw is also capable of making or breaking the result. How you stand relative to the work, sawing at a comfortable height … again all important. But none of these are as vital as the next item …

The most important factor in good dovetailing is (1) your sense of aesthetic and (2) accurate and clear marking. There are some who eschew marking gauges or templates and say just saw by eye. Personally, I think that this macho stance is all posturing and the resultant work looks like crap. Jim Krenov taught about positioning of dovetails, both for strength and looks. It does not take longer to mark all carefully, and the result is going to live with you a long time. But it is not enough to mark aesthetically - you need to be able to see the marks and cut to them. Many years ago now, as my eyes began to age, I developed the blue tape method to transfer tails to pins. I am a supporter of handwork, and the tape does not reduce handwork. It just aids the eyes. I have developed a number of other methods, and even work-holding fixtures, but they are all geared towards transferring marks and marking. This area is make-or-break for accurate fits.

There are techniques for sawing, both the diagonals and the horizontals, using dovetail saws and fret/coping saws. Sawing and chopping waste need to be seen to be integrated acts. For example, creating a chisel wall at the baseline, then sawing out the waste from the tail socket, and these together, in that order, facilitate chopping out the waste to the baseline … and not over it. I have many articles/pictorials on this on my website. There are recent articles I wrote in the last two editions of Quercus magazine.

Here is some bedtime reading: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AnotherCoffeeTable2.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/The140TrickisDead.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PeeningDovetailsinWood.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakeKerfingChisel2.html

Plus, the recent-ish set of articles on the “Underbench Cabinet” was a journey through case dovetail joinery, and then building drawers Scroll down this page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html

There are also articles on my website for making drawers with bow fronts, which necessitate compound dovetails. Example: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheApothecaryChestWeekend9.html

I hope that this helps.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Ellenberger]

I found the Paul Sellers videos very helpful. He has plenty of free ones, and after you’ve made a few things his paid site has lots more useful content.

The basics aren’t that complicated though. Once you’ve already watched a few videos and made one or two test joints, the best thing is just to make lots of dovetails.

I recommend getting some poplar (or other inexpensive hardwood) and make lots of little caddies or storage trays for around the house and shop. If they don’t come out perfect you’ll be fine and you’ll get better with every box.

486225

Another handy idea! A box sized to fit the rectangular 1 quart solvent cans. I have one that fits about 5 or 6 and it is really convenient to grab the whole box and take it out for a project, rather than deciding ahead I’d time exactly what I need.

[steven c newman]

Besides, one can hear from a dozen "Gurus" about the "proper way" to cut and fit Dovetails....and..each one will be different....the task is to take a few gems from each way, and come up with a way that works for you...

And, remember...to always mark the waste, and saw on the waste side of a line....one can always pare away a little bit for fit....rather a bit hard to ADD some...

[Prashun Patel]

(as if more needs to be said) Don't be tempted to practice on cheap wood that bears no semblance to the project wood you'll ultimately work with. That is, don't practice on pine or 2x4's if you intend to make a case in white oak. You'll feel the species differences in wood compression, splintering, and hardness most acutely when you chisel.

[Chris Parks]

I read somewhere, most probably FWW that the first thing you should do when you walk into the workshop is cut a dovetail for practise. And here is another exponent which I rather like, quick with no waffle he just gets on with it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix3mphsKGJg&amp;ab_channel=JohnBullar

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Chris

I like John Bullar a lot, but his approach here is not to be recommended for someone starting out as he gets quite casual about the work, which may be fine for someone very experienced. What really stands out is that his work here is sub-standard. Yes, I know it looks good, but I took a couple of screen shots to illustrate my points.

He advocates chopping once before the line and then the second chop on the line. I say do not do this, as it will push the base line back. In the actual case, he not only pushes the baseline back, but he chisels in a way that repairs would be difficult ...

https://i.postimg.cc/t472PRnv/Buller-1.png

These videos are presented to disguise the gaps at the baseline, which must eventuate from the errors above. That does not fill me with confidence ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2800VLyB/Buller2.png

I have made a few videos, but one really needs to be desperate or have low entertainment standards, or insomnia, to watch them. If you are all of the above, here is one on the fitted parts to show you what I mean by disclosure ...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh4_iCVjyhU&ab_channel=DerekCohen

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

Hi Tony

When I started work I didn't have to cut hardly any dovetails. I think one of the projects I did as an apprentice had some. I've been drowning in variations of mortice and tenon joints instead!

I liked books, not fancy ones, often basic ones. I have "Practical Home Woodworking Illustrated" from 1951. Perhaps I could rebrand it "Mutinous Woodworking" 😂.

Despite its humble name and objective it has clear information on preparing joints. As Derek mentioned, there is good information out there but there is also a lot of people who are looking for the next bit of click bait or to sell a gimmick (that's fine, most do this for fun).

Bullar's method is fine, I would just worry that someone inexperienced would slip with the chisel and cut their hand when marking the base line. A gauge or knifed line is more reliable. Hope you get some shop time soon.

[Jim Koepke]

A story so old, it is possibly new to the younger readers here; An anxious and confused looking young man is walking in Central Park, NY. He walks up to an older gentleman and says, "excuse me sir, can you tell me how to get to Carnegie Hall?" The older man looks at the young man and says, "practice young man, lots and lots of practice."

It is the same with dovetails. There are many approaches to dovetails and most of them work.

There is also one's style vs goal to consider.

John Bullar's method "quick & easy" comes off like "Fast & Furious" yet functional. (other names might be "down & dirty" or "quick & sloppy")

At the other end is "precise & artistic". This goes beyond mere function and to many indicate a high degree of attention to details.

Many of my earlier dovetails had the "fast & furious' look. They are still around as examples to remind me to take a little more time and work in a methodical manner instead of working in a panic.

The best thing for me to do before trying to cut dovetails after not having done so for a while is to practice as much as is needed before starting a dovetailed project. It is like a fine tuning of my tools into the overture.

jtk

[Reed Gray]

I recently got back into 'flat work', after many years more on the lathe. I first watched Roy Underhill. Now days, you can go to You Tube and there are a bunch out there. Stumpy Nubs, Johnathan Katz Moses, Rob Cossman, Matt Estlea. They all have their own methods, which are fairly similar. Precise lay out and sharp chisels are every thing. Took me about 10 tries to actually get one set that look like I almost knew what I was doing.

robo hippy

[Phil Gaudio]

OK, so here is the trick (lets keep this between ourselves: if word of this gets out everyone will be cutting nice dovetails): cutting square to the face of the board when cutting your tails (tails first) and then cutting plumb and square when cutting your pins. In my opinion, the challenge of dovetails is in the sawing. Looks easy, but unless you are a sawing savant, its not. It comes after practice, practice, and more practice. One other helpful detail: make some sample cuts and use a square to check if your cuts are indeed square to the face and the pins are square to the end. It helps an awful lot to be able to accurately saw to a line. Practice/check/correct mistakes/more practice.

[steven c newman]

It also helps to use the knuckle of my left thumb, to guide the saw....yes, I have a flat spot, now.....Thumbnail rides against the saw down at the kerf.

[Scott Winners]

Plenty of good advice here.

One thing I haven't seen yet: When you have cut a dovetail you don't like, figure out why. At what step did your execution stray from the perfection you visualized? For me I had to become more vigilant about getting my stock s6s before layout. Without square stock the whole thing is going to go off the rails no matter how well you saw.

I do like having a couple books on paper to take out to the shop with me rather than install a video monitor in the shop.

[Mike Henderson]

Ian Kirby's book is the best resource available. He starts with the basics and gradually advances. I know of no other quality, small, concise book on the subject.

That's how I learned to cut dovetails - from his book. Recommended.

I have a few tutorials on dovetails - see here (https://mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm), here (https://mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm), here (https://mikes-woodwork.com/SecretDovetail.htm) and here (https://mikes-woodwork.com/FullBlindDovetail.htm).

Mike

[Charles Guest]

Ian Kirby's book for its completeness. You might end up doing things differently after a time but if you're new and you follow his steps, you'll be able to make the joint. Ditto his treatment of mortise and tenon joints in the old black and white years of Fine Woodworking.

[Edward Weber]

Dovetails have been used for thousands of years and yet here we are still talking about, which method or methods are the best.
The amount of material available on the subject can be overwhelming.
A dovetail in its basic form is a quite simple joint, consisting of a few basic woodworking skills, combined to form a strong self squaring joint.
If you know what style of joint you want to use in your upcoming project, I say just go practice and don't devote too much time watching how others make them.
You have to do the cutting, chopping and paring, none of the books and videos can't do that for you, only practice.
JMHO

[Jim Koepke]

Dovetails have been used for thousands of years and yet here we are still talking about, which method or methods are the best.
The amount of material available on the subject can be overwhelming.

Yes, maybe we should move on to more important matters such as pins or tails first… That would surely get the thread heated and likely closed. :eek:

jtk

[David Bassett]

Yes, maybe we should move on to more important matters such as pins or tails first… That would surely get the thread heated and likely closed. :eek:

jtk

Duh, Tails! ;)

(Mostly 'cuz I was taught that way and because you can gang cut tails in both sides and have fewer cuts to screw up. :) )

[steven c newman]

Done pins first...
486297
Because that works for me...I get tighter joints.

[Tony Wilkins]

Done pins first...
486297
Because that works for me...I get tighter joints.

Tried it one and kinda liked it. However, the siren call of gang cutting for the many dovetails on the upcoming Bookcases is pulling me to tails first.

[Reed Gray]

It might be Johnathan Katz Moses who has acrylic jigs with magnets in it and an off set device to compensate for saw kerf, so you can pretty much cut 'perfect' joints for angles and straight cuts when making dove tails. Can't remember...

robo hippy

[Tony Wilkins]

It might be Johnathan Katz Moses who has acrylic jigs with magnets in it and an off set device to compensate for saw kerf, so you can pretty much cut 'perfect' joints for angles and straight cuts when making dove tails. Can't remember...

robo hippy

Yes, he does have the acrylic jig with magnets (have one in a box to try along with the LV one) but it does not have the functionality to do the offset as far as I know. (I’d be cool if I was wrong). It’s Cosman that does the saw kerf offset and sells a couple of jigs (Shawn Shims) to accomplish this. My current plan is to use a round gauge to do this.

[Reed Gray]

Found the video. Apparently there are several variations of magnetic jigs for cutting dove tails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWZp5DRkRi4

robo hippy

[Jim Koepke]

One thing that I try to remember is to gauge the smallest waste to be cleared to be a little bigger than any chisel to be used.

Having a very small pin may look nice, but it can be a pain if your chisel isn't small enough to pare the waste.

jtk

[Tony Wilkins]

Found the video. Apparently there are several variations of magnetic jigs for cutting dove tails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWZp5DRkRi4

robo hippy

There was a Fine Woodworking article recently on different guides. Think they had 5 or 6 of them.

[Tony Wilkins]

One thing that I try to remember is to gauge the smallest waste to be cleared to be a little bigger than any chisel to be used.

Having a very small pin may look nice, but it can be a pain if your chisel isn't small enough to pare the waste.

jtk

I definitely aim for wide sockets on the toolbox I’ve been working on. But I also have a 1/8” chisel because, well, I like chisels and I’m a bit of an addict.

[Edward Weber]

Yes, maybe we should move on to more important matters such as pins or tails first… That would surely get the thread heated and likely closed. :eek:

jtk

Well everyone knows it's tails first, I don't know why you would ask such a silly question :rolleyes:
Now to more serious questions, what saw and number of teeth?

[Prashun Patel]

I use the Lie Nielsen dovetail saw. 14tpi. For me this is the sweet spot. Easy enough to start but aggressive Enough that you are t tempted to push down .
Ymmv, but I prefer westerns to Japanese for dovetails. Faster and easier to cut straight w.

[Derek Cohen]

There are two related issues that come up and really irk me. The one is the use of dovetail guides for sawing, and the other is the idea that practice makes perfect.

If you really want to improve your dovetailing accuracy, and any joinery for that matter, then you need to recognise that the heart and soul of this work is understanding what makes for precision.

As I have written earlier, marking out is very important. Linked to this the approach to sawing, which will maximise accuracy. It is really quite simple: work against a line and saw to two adjacent lines at the same time. Here is the only example I can find quickly …

https://i.postimg.cc/h4NRC7MK/TheVeritas20ppiDovetailSaw_html_m654f2955.jpg

I have written in the other thread about setting up baselines.

Relief cuts are why I use the Kerfing Chisel for clearing sockets.

Blue tape helps me see a line; it does not alter that I am the one holding a saw and making the cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Monte Milanuk]

Yes, he does have the acrylic jig with magnets (have one in a box to try along with the LV one) but it does not have the functionality to do the offset as far as I know. (I’d be cool if I was wrong). It’s Cosman that does the saw kerf offset and sells a couple of jigs (Shawn Shims) to accomplish this. My current plan is to use a round gauge to do this.

I might be mis-understanding something here (probably)... given my relatively minimal experience with dovetails... but from what I can tell from watching Katz-Moses' videos on his jig, and playing with one in my shop... if you lay out the pins from the tails, using a pencil and mark your waste, then everything between - and including - the lines is 'waste'. If you position the guide so it just covers the line, the saw kerf should be exactly where its supposed to be already. The guide keeps it from moving over where it shouldn't be - so I'm not sure I see where the shim would come in?

Now, if you are cutting free-hand and tracing with a marking knife, and then putting the saw *in* the knife line, I could see the saw kerf being ever so slightly 'over the line', so to speak, and I could see the argument for an offset, whether by eyeball, marking gauge or shim. Or if you are tracing the pins with the tip of your DT saw (or that fancy kerf marker thingy that Cosman sells), I can see that kerf being on the wrong side of where you want it to actually be, unless you offset it.

But with the guide... I think if you mark with a pencil, and position the guide on the correct side of the line (i.e. on top of it)... you should already be there.

Either that, or I just got really lucky :D Pine does smoosh together pretty nicely, so maybe I did. I failed pretty miserably at chiseling the base line, though. Still need more work on that. :rolleyes:

[Tony Wilkins]

I might be mis-understanding something here (probably)... given my relatively minimal experience with dovetails... but from what I can tell from watching Katz-Moses' videos on his jig, and playing with one in my shop... if you lay out the pins from the tails, using a pencil and mark your waste, then everything between - and including - the lines is 'waste'. If you position the guide so it just covers the line, the saw kerf should be exactly where its supposed to be already. The guide keeps it from moving over where it shouldn't be - so I'm not sure I see where the shim would come in?

Now, if you are cutting free-hand and tracing with a marking knife, and then putting the saw *in* the knife line, I could see the saw kerf being ever so slightly 'over the line', so to speak, and I could see the argument for an offset, whether by eyeball, marking gauge or shim. Or if you are tracing the pins with the tip of your DT saw (or that fancy kerf marker thingy that Cosman sells), I can see that kerf being on the wrong side of where you want it to actually be, unless you offset it.

But with the guide... I think if you mark with a pencil, and position the guide on the correct side of the line (i.e. on top of it)... you should already be there.

Either that, or I just got really lucky :D Pine does smoosh together pretty nicely, so maybe I did. I failed pretty miserably at chiseling the base line, though. Still need more work on that. :rolleyes:

You are correct. If I use the guide I wouldn’t want to use the offset. That is unless I do the saw through the kerf method of marking the pins. Then it becomes more interesting and it depends on how deep I ‘mark’.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony, you may wish to change the heading of this thread from "dovetail guru" to "dovetail guided". These are two different concepts and mindsets.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

I look at dovetails as a good strong everyday joinery task. Part of the strength is redundancy. A well done single tail is strong more tails make it a bit better. I do mine in a fashion that Derek would likely call sloppy. I mark the baseline from the opposing piece with a sharp pencil. I saw the pins by eye, just to the edge of the baseline mark, no marks for the pins. I chop the waste with sharp chisel. I mark the tails from the pins with a sharp pencil. Saw leaving the line. Chop the waste with a sharp chisel. Put it together. These are some I did a few weeks back to warm up after a long layoff from tail cutting. I did use them for a small tool box to protect a new machine tool. Easy to fix a couple of chips. Not something you wouldn’t see in the normal course of work. Pins first bad, no marks bad. Look as good or better than what I’ve seen on 150 year old “quality” work.
Jim

[Edward Weber]

There are two related issues that come up and really irk me. The one is the use of dovetail guides for sawing, and the other is the idea that practice makes perfect.


With respect,
Guides can help introduce muscle memory.
While practice does not make perfect (I never said it did) One needs to practice to actually make dovetails.
Far too much time and effort is often put in watching others mark, cut, chisel, etc. At some point, regardless of the method you choose, you need to practice, actually pick up tools and make some sawdust.

If a guide helps someone saw accurately until they get the feel for it, great.
If a practice joint helps people keep their skills honed, great.
There is no one single correct way to make this joint.

[Tony Wilkins]

With respect,
Guides can help introduce muscle memory.
While practice does not make perfect (I never said it did) One needs to practice to actually make dovetails.
Far too much time and effort is often put in watching others mark, cut, chisel, etc. At some point, regardless of the method you choose, you need to practice, actually pick up tools and make some sawdust.

If a guide helps someone saw accurately until they get the feel for it, great.
If a practice joint helps people keep their skills honed, great.
There is no one single correct way to make this joint.

I haven’t used the guides but there is a reason I have one. I have a lot of dovetails on the upcoming project. If my hand isn’t working right, I don’t want that to prevent me from complete project.

[Jim Koepke]

These are some I did a few weeks back to warm up after a long layoff from tail cutting. I did use them for a small tool box to protect a new machine tool. Easy to fix a couple of chips. Not something you wouldn’t see in the normal course of work. Pins first bad, no marks bad. Look as good or better than what I’ve seen on 150 year old “quality” work.
Jim

Agree, most of us who work wood here in the twenty first century are not concerned about cutting enough dovetails in a day so our family can have food to eat. A century and a half ago the dovetails needed to be good enough to function without looking perfect. Those of us who do woodworking for a living today likely make enough off of the work to take time to produce the "air tight" dovetails upon which everyone seems to be focused.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

The issue I have with a guide is that it stops you thinking about what you are doing. It combines a few steps into one. The end result may look good, and that is fine if all you want is the end result as quickly as possible, but if you want to learn a skill - one that may be generalised to other forms of joint cutting - then you need to look at what you are doing, break it down into small bites, and deal with each in turn. This is actually quite easy to master - I have written about it many times - and the result is not only fine looking joinery, but one that is implemented faster than setting up a guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

the result is not only fine looking joinery, but one that is implemented faster than setting up a guide.

The being faster without using a guide was my reason to abandon trying to use a guide on dovetails or sharpening.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

The issue I have with a guide is that it stops you thinking about what you are doing. It combines a few steps into one. The end result may look good, and that is fine if all you want is the end result as quickly as possible, but if you want to learn a skill - one that may be generalised to other forms of joint cutting - then you need to look at what you are doing, break it down into small bites, and deal with each in turn. This is actually quite easy to master - I have written about it many times - and the result is not only fine looking joinery, but one that is implemented faster than setting up a guide.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Derek, I don't disagree with the premise of breaking the process down to its basic elements but saying things like "quite easy to master" is an individual viewpoint. If it were that easy, we wouldn't be having yet another discussion about how to cut a few millennia old joint.
For some, it can be extremely difficult. The same can be said about "faster than setting up a guide" this is simply not true for everyone.
Jigs and guides can be used like training wheels, they don't stop you from thinking about what you're doing. On the contrary, they force you pay attention and to follow where and what you should cut. Guides are just that, guides, they are not foolproof. They are more of a teaching tool than anything else you can use them until you've reached a point where you no longer need them.
i'm not advocating for or against them, only that there should be no stigma with using them.
JMHO

[Charles Guest]

One can only hope that the pendulum starts to swing away from all the joinery being exposed. There was a time when exposed dovetails, other than on drawers which aren't really exposed at all, would have been considered crass.

However you cut them, use what you need to -- guides or whatever, do try to resist designing everything around the fact that you've managed to learn to cut a creditable joint. That stuff can be a real yawner. This is akin to every idiot that owns a chainsaw mill thinking he's going to be the next Nakashima. You'll have a breakthrough in dovetail cutting, and you'll probably go through your "dovetail period" where you can't wait to show the world that you're a world class dovetailer. Just don't let the next fifteen years revolve around that fact. Let nuance and restraint be the order of the day.

[Prashun Patel]

Here here, Charles. Sage advice.

[Eric Rathhaus]

I've always thought they language we use in discussing joints misleads. I'm sure the OP can, in fact, make a dovetail joint. He may not be happy with how it looks, but first and foremost should always be does the joint work in its intended use. The rest is just a matter of learning to find your own acceptable level of refinement.

[Tony Wilkins]

I've always thought they language we use in discussing joints misleads. I'm sure the OP can, in fact, make a dovetail joint. He may not be happy with how it looks, but first and foremost should always be does the joint work in its intended use. The rest is just a matter of learning to find your own acceptable level of refinement.

I can and really have been impressed with how they’ve come out. The reason I asked the question is two fold. First, out of curiosity of how y’all’s skills developed. Second, I’ve played around with variations of how these various personalities teach it and, with many dovetails between my next two projects, I’m trying to decide on how to approach them. I’ve always assumed I’d take ‘the best’ of each person I’ve learned from but I’m a little concerned that I’d get into it and run up against some little incongruity that would set me back. I’m taking the DTC as a chance to get my skills zeroed in since it’s been a while but maybe also to try some things from Cosman that I’m curious about*.

* Two things - using the offset marking technique based on the width of the saw & doing the tape wall he now recommends.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Rob Cossman's method is pretty meticulous and organized in a precise method.

I learned the Paul Sellers method in Waco, Texas, and is what I use now. I will emphasize that a sharp chisel solves a whole host of problems. Also some wood is more forgiving than other kinds. To me, pine is terrible and being so soft, likes to crush and smoosh together. Black walnut is like carving soap or a potato with nice clean cuts. A joy to use.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I don't disagree with the premise of breaking the process down to its basic elements but saying things like "quite easy to master" is an individual viewpoint. If it were that easy, we wouldn't be having yet another discussion about how to cut a few millennia old joint.
For some, it can be extremely difficult. The same can be said about "faster than setting up a guide" this is simply not true for everyone.
Jigs and guides can be used like training wheels, they don't stop you from thinking about what you're doing. On the contrary, they force you pay attention and to follow where and what you should cut. Guides are just that, guides, they are not foolproof. They are more of a teaching tool than anything else you can use them until you've reached a point where you no longer need them.
i'm not advocating for or against them, only that there should be no stigma with using them.
JMHO

Edward, I am aware that we have a range of standards, from beginner to expert, in woodworking. It is wonderful that we have a stream of newcomers joining in. My message about using guides should not be read as absolute, and there are many different types of guides, some of which are used by those at the highest levels.

Personality comes into all this as well. While we share a love of woodworking and building, which is why we are here, there are many tastes in furniture (if furniture making is your bag), preferences for hand- and power tool use, the choice of joinery (as Charles points out), and how to make this …. the list is long. The issue of personality is about the motivation or drive to master skills. Some make the effort, and some do not.

For myself, I take a rather more (but not exclusive) traditional approach to building furniture. I love using handtools, but supplement them with machines. The machines do waste removal … grunt work … not shaping, if I can help it. I enjoy the challenge of joinery by hand. I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it. Bottom line: I enjoy challenges, and on these pages seek to inspire others to do the same. That is why I stand up against unnecessary guides and jigs.

There are some essential guides and jigs. Sawing slightly away from a line, and then using a guide block to pare to the line has been part of high end Japanese joinery for centuries. This is not the same as sawing the joint with a guide block. In the former, one is eking out the last bit of accuracy to make a compound joint fit together. In the latter, one is removing all risk (read David Pye on the Workmanship of Risk).

The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved. You can only do this by taking the risk of sawing by hand. Consequently, I encourage others to do so whenever I can.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

There was a time when exposed dovetails, other than on drawers which aren't really exposed at all, would have been considered crass.

From many sources it has been claimed the woodworkers for centuries made their tool chests with the intent of showing off their dovetails. The tool chest was like a portable portfolio. Good joinery and impressive construction was more likely to garner employment.


The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved.

Au contraire, our mistakes is one of the things from which we learn. As you said:


I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it.

After learning how to hide or repair mistakes we will likely find our skills improved. Learning what is wrong and correcting it is possibly as important as getting it right. Being able to figure what went wrong if and when something doesn't come out right is what separates the better workers from the lesser workers in many walks of life.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

Edward, I am aware that we have a range of standards, from beginner to expert, in woodworking. It is wonderful that we have a stream of newcomers joining in. My message about using guides should not be read as absolute, and there are many different types of guides, some of which are used by those at the highest levels.

Personality comes into all this as well. While we share a love of woodworking and building, which is why we are here, there are many tastes in furniture (if furniture making is your bag), preferences for hand- and power tool use, the choice of joinery (as Charles points out), and how to make this …. the list is long. The issue of personality is about the motivation or drive to master skills. Some make the effort, and some do not.

For myself, I take a rather more (but not exclusive) traditional approach to building furniture. I love using handtools, but supplement them with machines. The machines do waste removal … grunt work … not shaping, if I can help it. I enjoy the challenge of joinery by hand. I am not afraid to make mistakes, as the next challenge comes from correcting and hiding it. Bottom line: I enjoy challenges, and on these pages seek to inspire others to do the same. That is why I stand up against unnecessary guides and jigs.

There are some essential guides and jigs. Sawing slightly away from a line, and then using a guide block to pare to the line has been part of high end Japanese joinery for centuries. This is not the same as sawing the joint with a guide block. In the former, one is eking out the last bit of accuracy to make a compound joint fit together. In the latter, one is removing all risk (read David Pye on the Workmanship of Risk).

The fear of screwing up is really only dealt with by mastering the action involved. You can only do this by taking the risk of sawing by hand. Consequently, I encourage others to do so whenever I can.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Derek, I don't really think we are that far apart.
The only point I was trying to make is that "guides" come in all forms and shapes. It's up to the individual to determine how and when to use them or not.
When you mark out your dovetails, you use some type of straight edge as a guide for your pencil. Some may use their thumb as a guide when beginning a cut and so on. Guides and jigs are all around, whether you recognize them or not.
Not everyone wants their joinery to be a challenge, as you put it. Some are simply looking for an aesthetically pleasing end result. A simple saw guide can help them towards this end.
Also, guides are not foolproof, you can still make errors and learn from them.

Working primarily with hand tools should not preclude the use of guides jigs and fixtures, you simply can not "freehand" everything. Woodworkers for thousands of years have been using and improving all kinds of devices to hold the wood or cutting blade securely to improve their work.
I suppose everyone has to determine for themselves where they see a distinction between a normal method of work and what would be unnecessary guides and jigs, as you call them.

[Thomas Wilson]

I’m a heretic. When I have a lot of dovetails to do, I use a dovetail jig and router. Skill and experience are needed for machine dovetails too.

In the hand tool shop, I use guide blocks, miter saws, magnetic saw guides. Nothing is sacred when it comes to achieving accuracy. My method is largely my own, but I do like the layout method using a pair of dividers. I probably first saw it years ago in Fine Woodworking. I never used it until I took a class from Megan Fitzpatrick. She includes tricks to fix mistakes which are helpful.

[Mike Henderson]

I’m a heretic. When I have a lot of dovetails to do, I use a dovetail jig and router. Skill and experience are needed for machine dovetails too.

In the hand tool shop, I use guide blocks, miter saws, magnetic saw guides. Nothing is sacred when it comes to achieving accuracy. My method is largely my own, but I do like the layout method using a pair of dividers. I probably first saw it years ago in Fine Woodworking. I never used it until I took a class from Megan Fitzpatrick. She includes tricks to fix mistakes which are helpful.

I agree that when you have a lot of dovetails to do - with the same setup - a dovetail jig is the way to do it. For example, if I were building drawers for kitchen cabinets, I'd definitely use a dovetail jig. The drawers are a standard size so for one setup, I can do most of them.

But if I'm doing drawers for a chest of drawers, I'll do them by hand. Each drawer is usually a different size (biggest at the bottom) so you'd have to go through a setup for each drawer. Also, for something like a chest of drawers, I want to show that the dovetails are hand cut. Anyone who knows dovetails can easily identify machine cut dovetails. I want to "show off" to the generations that will use that chest of drawers I made for my niece (for example).

Mike

[Andrew Alexander]

I have always followed Rob Cosman’s approach to the craft of dovetailing for quite a number of years (from the DVD days).

As an aside, this past week I bought one of his dovetail markers with the saw kerf - wanted to give that gimmick a shot. Yesterday at lunch my phone rings with a call from New Brunswich. Thinking it was a scammer I answered hesitately. It was Cosman calling thanking me for the order…I was shocked and very pleasantly surprised. I thanked him for the Purple Heart Veterans work that he has going on. More small businesses should do more calling on customers like that, it will garantee that I will at least look at there product offering.

[Jim Koepke]

More small businesses should do more calling on customers like that, it will garantee that I will at least look at there product offering.

Possibly the best way to have a customer remember a business is to give the customer a warm feeling of being remembered by the business.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

My method I learned myself.

It generally involves carefully marking everything and then STILL winding up with two sets of pins or tails, or pins/tails matched up to the wrong piece, sometimes even having been carefully fitted first.

How I manage to do it every time, I still don't know. I guess I'm just that good.

:D

[Jim Koepke]

My method I learned myself.

It generally involves carefully marking everything and then STILL winding up with two sets of pins or tails, or pins/tails matched up to the wrong piece, sometimes even having been carefully fitted first.

How I manage to do it every time, I still don't know. I guess I'm just that good.

:D

Also mostly self learned on dovetails. Also had misalignments. Finally what helped was coming up with a system for marking the pieces to keep them straight.

When the pieces are cut to size before laying out the joinery they are set on the bench as they would go if the box was unfolded. Then the two ends are marked with the same letter in the area of the joint. Eventually it came to me to mark this on the inside where the pins and tails will cover them when the joint is assembled. Sometimes an arrow pointing to the top of the box is drawn:

486684

Then each joint is marked with their own letters. Then when it is time to glue, the pieces are lain out again. Makes for much less confusion when putting things together.

This system helped when putting this box together:

486685

It even made the lightbulb go off about aligning the grain around the corners.

jtk