What’s a fair price for powermatic 4224?

[Jay Barker]

Hello everyone-I have an opportunity to buy an older model Powermatic 4224. This is the old style without a movable headstock. Seller says the lathe works fine. He seems like a very honest guy and told me about multiple issues though. He states the plastic shield over the headstock display looks beat up, The spindle lock index wheel has been completely removed by a previous owner so it is missing and needs new parts to make that feature functional. Glass over LED display has been replaced with a home made piece because the original was broken. Reverse does not work. He also mentions that if the machine is left unplugged for a long period of time (several days or more) when you go to turn it on, a code pops up that says “OC”(overcurrent). He then unplugs the machine, plugs it back in, and then it starts just fine. I’m awaiting pictures of the machine. He is asking $4500. What do you think? I know the new ones (4224B) are fetching in excess of $9000. But this one sounds far from new. Seller states everything works perfectly aside from the above mentioned issues. Let me know your thoughts. Thank you kindly!
-Jay

[John K Jordan]

Hello everyone-I have an opportunity to buy an older model Powermatic 4224. This is the old style without a movable headstock. Seller says the lathe works fine. He seems like a very honest guy and told me about multiple issues though. He states the plastic shield over the headstock display looks beat up, The spindle lock index wheel has been completely removed by a previous owner so it is missing and needs new parts to make that feature functional. Glass over LED display has been replaced with a home made piece because the original was broken. Reverse does not work. He also mentions that if the machine is left unplugged for a long period of time (several days or more) when you go to turn it on, a code pops up that says “OC”(overcurrent). He then unplugs the machine, plugs it back in, and then it starts just fine. I’m awaiting pictures of the machine. He is asking $4500. What do you think? I know the new ones (4224B) are fetching in excess of $9000. But this one sounds far from new. Seller states everything works perfectly aside from the above mentioned issues. Let me know your thoughts. Thank you kindly!
-Jay

I know nothing about that model. That sounds like a few potential problems. The OC error might be the beginning of death of the VFD. (I had a 1642 that had those symptoms and eventually had to replace the VFD.) The reverse might just be a switch or loose wire but could be something worse. For an older lathe it might be good to check the spindle bearings. Is the tailstock quill in good condition. Come with the OEM accessories, tool rest, knockout bar, faceplate, etc? Threaded 1.25x8?

Do you need one with that much swing? A used PM 3520B with everything working will still turn large diameters outboard, has a longer bed, and a sliding head which gives a lot of flexibility. I've seen them for $3k or less. I paid about that for one with some extras and an 18" bed extension.

JKJ

[Jay Barker]

Hi John –
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I do believe it comes with most of the accessories. It at least comes with four separate tool rests which is nice. Comes with a lot of turning blanks too which is nice, but really doesn’t make a big difference to me since I live in the woods. Your comment about the VFD being on its way out initially really concerned me, because it looks like it’s about $700 for a new one. However, I saw on another one of your posts that it doesn’t necessarily need to be replaced with the exact same piece. Looks like you can buy a less expensive one off Amazon. I saw one for about 90 bucks that can operate a 3 hp motor, so I am now a much less concerned. i’m pretty good at fixing stuff, but I’m certainly not an electronics guru.
To answer another one of your questions: no, I definitely do not need a full 24 inch swing, but I doubt that I would ever regret having it. I’m not in a huge hurry to get a big lathe, but I would like to step up to a bigger one eventually. Thanks again for the info. Any other input is welcome and much appreciated.
-Jay

[David Walser]

Jay -- I don't know the market price for a used Powermatic 4224 in good condition. I do know that the one you're describing isn't in good condition and that I would demand a substantial discount from the 'good condition price' before I would assume responsibility for all the problems this particular lathe might have. As John said, some of these issues could be serious and fairly expensive to fix. Let's take the VFD for example. Suppose it goes out and you need to replace it. You say a replacement from Powermatic might cost $700 (assuming it's in stock and you don't have to wait weeks for one to arrive from the Far East). Or, you might find a suitable replacement on Ebay -- and be responsible for learning how to program it for use with the PM 4224. Given those options to fix the potential problem, I'd want a reduction of at least $700 below the 'good condition price' for the lathe. If the VFD goes out and I choose to go the Ebay route, at least then the lower price would compensate me for my time and hassle in fixing the problem.

I'd take a similar approach to the non-cosmetic issues. I want the reverse switch to work. I also want the built-in indexing to work. I would deduct the cost of those repairs from the 'good condition price' or I wouldn't buy the lathe. I would only take the cosmetic issues into account as evidence that the lathe may have been abused -- which may or may not mean other issues might arise that affect performance of the lathe.

I would also take into account that I don't need a lathe that large. Given my small shop, I wouldn't buy a new PM 4224 even if it were the same price as a new PM 3520. You might be in a completely different situation. If you need that bed length and that much swing for what you want to turn, then a good condition PM 4224 might be a good buy.

I just don't see this particular lathe, given its condition, is worth $4,500. Yes, it's about half of what a new model sells for. But that new model is a much better lathe -- in terms of features -- than this used one was when new. The new one has a sliding headstock and a built-in vacuum system for vacuum chucking. The new one also has a better indexing system, better spindle lock, and Powermatic made numerous ergonomic improvements over the older model. I don't think it's fair to base the price of the used lathe on the retail price of a new one. They may have the same model number, but they aren't the same lathe.

Good luck!

[Greg Parrish]

If you truly need that bed length capacity and want to stay around the $4500 mark, check out the Harvey T-60S. It's on sale right now for $4,299. It would be brand new and just like Powermatic, it would be made off shore but by a respected importer. I haven’t had one but they appear to be as nice as the Laguna, Jet, Powermatic offerings. https://www.harveywoodworking.com/products/t-60s?currency=USD&variant=31578097451123&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6p_o4bDl-QIVqGxvBB2IpwuhEAYYAyABEgKOkvD_BwE


If you are looking for the 24" swing capacity and don't need the bed length, as in for bowls, then also consider one of these if you can find a used one: Oneway 2416, Robust AB, or Vicmarc VL300.

[William C Rogers]

I would not buy that lathe even at a reduced price. Too many issues and maybe more hidden issues. I had a lathe I had to constantly “fix” and that is no fun. Greg P suggestion of a Harvey T60S above would be a better option and it will have some warranty.

[John Kananis]

A brand new Laguna 24/36 will only set you back 4k. You can extend the bed to whatever length you need.

[Jay Barker]

Thanks everyone for the advice. 12 hours ago, I was pretty much set on getting this thing but I think you have brought me back to reality. I appreciate the expertise of this group.

[Richard Coers]

I'd offer him $3500 as a starting point suggesting you may have to put $1,000 into it. $500 is more likely what the parts will cost when you buy a generic VFD. It's a lot more machine than any Laguna in my opinion. Saving the tax compared to a new machine is a major consideration.

[John Kananis]

It's a lot more machine than any Laguna in my opinion.

Hi Richard, can you expand on this a little? I did mention the 24/36 specifically which is a beast but my turning experience is more limited than many of you so I'd like to hear the why of it if you have a moment to do so.

Edit: I took a look at the new 4224b, wow, that really is a lot of machine. That said, I see some differences between this and the 24/36 but I'm not experienced enough to understand (maybe) how the cost doubles and why.

Edit 2: I did a little more research and I think I understand now. The additional mass alone is a nice benefit I imagine. I still wouldn't mind hearing perspective.

[Ricc Havens]

Even if you think you might buy it - be sure to take a moment and call Powermatic to see if the parts you need (reverse switch, index wheel, etc)are even available. Yes, you can get an after market VFD but you might not be able to get some parts after market. I have a 5yr old PM3520B. Needed a new quill. Took 6months for PM to get them back in stock. Wasn't available anywhere else. The older something gets the less replacement parts the manufacturer will continue to re-supply.

[Jim Bell]

For $4500.00 I'd be looking elsewhere.

[Richard Coers]

Hi Richard, can you expand on this a little? I did mention the 24/36 specifically which is a beast but my turning experience is more limited than many of you so I'd like to hear the why of it if you have a moment to do so.

Edit: I took a look at the new 4224b, wow, that really is a lot of machine. That said, I see some differences between this and the 24/36 but I'm not experienced enough to understand (maybe) how the cost doubles and why.

Edit 2: I did a little more research and I think I understand now. The additional mass alone is a nice benefit I imagine. I still wouldn't mind hearing perspective.
The accuracy of my concerns needs a little research to confirm since my memory isn't what it used to be. The bed of the Laguna is fabricated steel and has less vertical height. That makes it more flexible. The Laguna uses 2 single row bearings (and here is the question in my memory) the Powermatic uses a double row in the front bearing and a single row in the back. The Powermatic had heavy input of Rude Osolnik, a world renowned turner during the design and test phase.

[John Kananis]

Thanks for replying, Richard. I'll look into the points you've made - I appreciate the input. In spite of a lot of the differences, which I'm coming to understand, I think the laguna still offers a pretty incredible bang for buck at less than half. Whether that's enough, I have no idea as my experience is limited. I do understand that powermatic and robust are pretty much the standard for best new. That said, I hope I get many years out of my current machine before I "need" to upgrade to that level of equipment.

[Kevin Jenness]

[QUOTE=John Kananis;3211057I do understand that powermatic and robust are pretty much the standard for best new. [/QUOTE]

I would add Oneway and Vicmarc. Not that you need one, but if you are in the market for a top-end used lathe they should be in the mix.

[Greg Parrish]

Another one, assuming they are still in business, is Serious lathes. Don't hear much about them on forums but they appear to have a heavy duty locomotive of a lathe. LOL

http://www.serioustoolworks.com/wood-lathes.html

[John Kananis]

Geez, locomotive is such a spot on comparison.

[Richard Coers]

Thanks for replying, Richard. I'll look into the points you've made - I appreciate the input. In spite of a lot of the differences, which I'm coming to understand, I think the laguna still offers a pretty incredible bang for buck at less than half. Whether that's enough, I have no idea as my experience is limited. I do understand that powermatic and robust are pretty much the standard for best new. That said, I hope I get many years out of my current machine before I "need" to upgrade to that level of equipment.
I've been buying machines for almost 50 years. Way back, one company would send out a questionnaire after a purchase. Question #1 was; "For the price you paid, are you satisfied with the machine". Ranks right in there with bang for the buck. I have yet to be disappointed with any premium quality machinery I have purchased. I can not say the same for machines purchased solely on the price. But my case is usually different, and I have more than paid for my Oneway that I bought in 1998. It didn't cost me money, it made me money. But not everyone sells.

[Jay Barker]

For what it’s worth, the seller dropped the price by $2000. The price is now $2500. He is moving, he moves in less than 10 days and he is desperate to sell. he’s an older gentleman and doesn’t have a smart phone. He is unable to send pictures but states it needs a paint job. Sounds like the thing is pretty beat up, but the new price reduction has me reconsidering…

[andy bessette]

...The price is now $2500…

At that price I would be a buyer. It is a nice, heavy duty machine at a fraction of replacement cost.

[Thomas Wilson80]

Does it come with any tools or extras? Given the history of multiple issues, this sounds like a pretty beat up lathe. Do you need 24" for turning?
He may be desperate to sell - You could offer him $1500-$2000 and given all the issues, I don't think that is low-balling. I would still be wary until I'd seen it in person.

Just to consider, for $2500 you could almost get a new laguna 1836 when they go on sale ($3000 new but often have 10% off sales). I have had the Laguna 2436 for 3 years and really like it, though the powermatics are nicer overall, just not sure that this particular one is.

Good luck.
Tom

[John C Bush]

Hi Jay,
I have that model lathe and it has been a great machine. I got it as part of a complete hobby shop I bought from an estate sale. Still had cosmoline on the ways.
I was going to suggest the $4500 was a bit high for the noted wear and tear issues but for $2500 I think it is a great deal. My headstock faceplate has faded and has begun to delaminate but not a functional issue-the LED "window" is part of the plastic faceplate so likely no problem(replacement for the faceplate "no longer available") The reversing function is important for sanding and finishing-not sure if the switch is bad or if it is a VDF issue. I usually leave mine unplugged and very rarely I need to unplug/replug in to get it to fire up. I had issues with start ups for a while but found the remote emergency switch just needed the sawdust cleaned out. No problems since. Never used the indexing system and use the arbor lock to remove chucks but haven't needed it for indexing. Hopefully your deal includes several chucks!!!! The lathe weighs over 900#s IIRC and I have turned some beastly blanks with no problem--well, my techiques not included--,motor has lots of power. I find I don't turn as many large bowls now but when I get a nice big blank the lathe can handle it. As far as the style of lathe-I haven't used a movable headstock lathe and there have been times I think a rotating heastock would be easier/kinder on my back when working on the inside of large bowls--ignorance is bliss. Hopefully this info helps and I think buying at that price os a great deal. Good luck.

[Jay Barker]

Well, better late than never...
I thought I would follow up and let you all know what happened. I did buy the lathe for $2500. It was a beast to disassemble, transport, and reassemble. A ton of hard work. And then…..it didn’t work at all lol.
John Jordan was first to reply and his answer was spot on. The VFD was definitely on its way out. I think being jostled around in the transport finished it off. After a fair amount of painful troubleshooting, I was able to determine the VFD was junk. Got that rebuilt for about 250 bucks. Worked great for a day then the lathe stopped working again. Luckily, this time is was only the main power switch. Reverse worked fine after replacing the reverse switch for $7. All in all, it was a time consuming pain in the butt, but I learned a lot and now have a great lathe. Thanks to all for the advice!
-Jay

[Robert Hayward]

Got that rebuilt for about 250 bucks.

Where did you have the VFD rebuilt? I am looking for a repair place for a VFD for my jointer. My barn took a direct lightning hit three days before Christmas.

[Jay Barker]

It was a company called up-fix on eBay. I would give them a rating of “OK.”
The price was slightly more than originally quoted. There seems to be poor communication within the company so I was getting mixed messages at times. But in the end, they did what they said they were going to do and it works well now.

[Brice Rogers]

Richard Hayward,

I'd suggest taking a look directly at the circuit board. In my experience, a direct lightning strike can cause a lot of damage that may have gone beyond the power supply. If you see parts that look swollen (primarily electrolytic capacitors), charred parts, missing circuit board copper traces, it would make the most sense to toss it. But if (with a bright light and a magnifying glass) you don't see any physical damage, maybe you'll be lucky. There is likely a fuse or fuses on the circuit board - - maybe the kind that can easily be replaced or maybe the kind that are soldered in place. If you see a fuse, make sure to ohm it out. (This would be in the "lucky" scenario). Or if there is a circuit breaker, ohm that too.

[Robert Hayward]

Richard Hayward,

I'd suggest taking a look directly at the circuit board. In my experience, a direct lightning strike can cause a lot of damage
I did all that before I ordered a new VFD. The building took the direct hit. Almost everything in the building that was plugged in took a major surge. Because I live in an area considered one of the lightning capitols of the world I unplug electronics like the VFD when I am finished using them. The day prior I had been back and forth between my garage shop and the jointer in the out building. Had no idea I had left it plugged in, expensive mistake. The hit took out all my exterior Christmas lights on both the barn and the house. Even blew up a bunch of low voltage LED landscape light bulbs in the front yard.

In the attached picture you can see the smoked area on two sides of the device with the thermal grease on it. That is the only visible damage I can see. You are correct according to my experience with lightning strikes and more damage than the eye can see.