saw sharpening with a micro-bevel

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have not sharpened many saws.

On a whim, I was watching Paul Sellers cutting fresh teeth into a saw (rip cut)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTqZTGPPRj0

and then I watched sharpening a saw (rip cut)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA5DixEaaUo

In this second video, Paul added a micro-bevel (25 to 26 minutes in). I think Paul used a diamond file. The claim is that the saw can do two to three times the cuts in his school before it must be resharpened.

I have not previously seen anyone suggest adding a micro-bevel to a saw after sharpening.

[steven c newman]

Have one you can practice on...
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Just arrived today...Disston D-23...8ppi.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Have one you can practice on...
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Just arrived today...Disston D-23...8ppi.

Nice..... Just need to arrange for the timing...

In one week I hope to go see my Father. He just had a heart attack and would like to see him before my appointment with the surgeon. Probably cannot drive after my surgery, not that I know what that will be scheduled. :-(

[Charles Guest]

Look! a new navel at which I can gaze.

[Jim Koepke]

Look! a new navel at which I can gaze.

LOL!

jtk

[steven c newman]

All cleaned up ( and lint removed...)
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Keystone...
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Bolts have been clocked, handle refinished....saw plate has been straightened, via hammering...(24 oz hammer vs the top of the bench's leg) all the rust removed..

Waiting on a vise....whether to use the old Wentworth No. 1,
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Or, the Disston No. 3
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Saw has plenty of set, teeth are a bit worn, is all....

[Edward Weber]

In this second video, Paul added a micro-bevel (25 to 26 minutes in). I think Paul used a diamond file. The claim is that the saw can do two to three times the cuts in his school before it must be resharpened.

I have not previously seen anyone suggest adding a micro-bevel to a saw after sharpening.

That's quite a claim, I would have to see some proof or measurable evidence before I could get on board with that.
The funny thing is that he says he doesn't advocate micro-bevels on anything else, but then goes on to explain the benefits in exactly them same way as someone who puts a micro-bevel one on a chisel would.

[William Fretwell]

The diamond file may just sharpen better than the usual steel file. The sharper edge lasts longer. The micro bevel may be irrelevant.

[Richard Coers]

That's quite a claim, I would have to see some proof or measurable evidence before I could get on board with that.
The funny thing is that he says he doesn't advocate micro-bevels on anything else, but then goes on to explain the benefits in exactly them same way as someone who puts a micro-bevel one on a chisel would.
I completely agree. Hand saws have been found and dated as long ago as 1,500BC. Amazing that one guy just found a way to make them cut 300% longer.

[Jim Koepke]

The diamond file may just sharpen better than the usual steel file. The sharper edge lasts longer. The micro bevel may be irrelevant.

After watching some of the video it shows Mr. Sellers putting a back bevel on the saw's teeth, not a micro bevel on the cutting edge. This may reduce wear from the saw being drawn back. My tendency is to lift the saw on the back stroke.

It did make me feel better about my own saw sharpening. Some of his teeth look about as misshapen if not more so than some of mine.

He does a few other controversial procedures to evoke the passions seen in any discussion of sharpening.

I will occasionally reduce set on a saw in a vise, but not after setting it. My tendency is to under set and then add a hair more if needed.

Hitting a saw between two hammers is definitely a NO NO in my book of safe working. If one wants to hammer on saws, get an anvil.

It is also goes against my grain most of the time to hold a metal object in a vise with wooden jaws, use a metal working vise. A small one can be mounted on wood to be held in a woodworking vise if space is a consideration.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Meanwhile...
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and the files...
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I used the red handled one...
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26" is a LOT of teeth...until I got to the last couple inches..
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I just used the existing pattern, wasn't anything wrong with the teeth, other than the tips were worn a bit...

Cuts like a dream, again....hand hurts from holding the file handle....maybe 15 minutes of work....including moving the saw twice.

YMMV...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

After watching some of the video it shows Mr. Sellers putting a back bevel on the saw's teeth, not a micro bevel on the cutting edge. This may reduce wear from the saw being drawn back. My tendency is to lift the saw on the back stroke.

Interesting. It was not clear to me where he was placing that micro-bevel.




It is also goes against my grain most of the time to hold a metal object in a vise with wooden jaws, use a metal working vise. A small one can be mounted on wood to be held in a woodworking vise if space is a consideration.

Pardon my lack of knowledge. Is there a specific reason? Is the same true for a saw sharpening vice? I have not built, but have seen many plans for, wood saw sharpening vices.

[steven c newman]

Many of the older, portable saw vises ( where the fellow would set up out on a sidewalk, and sharpen any saws while you waited...like at a train station) where made of wood, usually with a strip of leather to line the jaws with. Also, I believe that The Woodwright's Shop even had an episode about how to build just such a saw vise.

Andrew: IF you need/want a saw vise...I have that No.3 Saw Vise you can have.....
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The one on the right...I'm keeping the Wentworth No. 1

[Jim Koepke]

…

Pardon my lack of knowledge. Is there a specific reason? Is the same true for a saw sharpening vice? I have not built, but have seen many plans for, wood saw sharpening vices.

My comment is about a vise with wooden jaws not being used to hold metal is aimed mostly at protecting the jaws from being crushed by the metal. It may have been clearer if instead of saying wooden jaws my statement was to not clamp metal in a woodworking vise. Maybe even to be careful about clamping metal in a woodworking vise. I have clamped planes in my woodworking vises.

Holding a hammer in a woodworking vise tight enough to pound on a saw plate with another hammer is surely not going to be nice to the wooden jaws.

Wooden saw vises are fine, I've used them in my own shop at times.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I think a lot of Historians, and News people get to this point. When they don't have something real to pass on, they make something up.

[steven c newman]

You'll have to ask Roy Underhill about that saw vise, though......

[Tom M King]

I had looked for an Acme vise for a long time, but wasn't willing to pay $350 for the one that I finally saw. I did find a no name that's big enough to only have to move a 26" handsaw once. I bought it from The Best Things, but they had never seen another one like it either. It works great, and no, it's not for sale.

I thought I had a picture of it here, but will have to take another one. It probably weighs 6 to 8 times what a Disston or Stearns weighs, and is probably twice as wide.

[Jim Koepke]

After working with a few different "vintage" saw vises it was decided to just bite the bullet an purchase one from Gramercy:

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It was mounted on a wooden frame so it would be easy to hold in my bench vises. It comes with steel handle to operate the jaws, the wooden handle was added.

It works very well and is easy to stow away.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Here's my current vise. I bought it from Lee at the Best Things, and he had never seen another one like it either. It has no name or number on it anywhere, but judging by the threads and big fancy thumbscrews, it's pretty old. Next to a more common Stearns no.5. I only have to move a 26" handsaw once, with every tooth fully supported, and no movement needed for backsaws other than the 28" miter box one. It holds really securely with no vibration. The jaws are really thick.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have a rather new modern saw vice.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Here's my current vise. I bought it from Lee at the Best Things, and he had never seen another one like it either. It has no name or number on it anywhere, but judging by the threads and big fancy thumbscrews, it's pretty old. Next to a more common Stearns no.5. I only have to move a 26" handsaw once, with every tooth fully supported, and no movement needed for backsaws other than the 28" miter box one. It holds really securely with no vibration. The jaws are really thick.
Tom there is another big saw vice that isn't that heavy. Chris Shwartz showed his one time when he was at popular woodworking. I have one too and I see them on craigs list from time to time. It was made by Lodi Manufacturing Company.

[Tom M King]

I actually had my hands on one of those a long time ago, but I really didn't like it enough to buy it. It seems fiddly to me, and not that stable. I like heavy and stable. I sharpen a saw pretty fast, and don't like it to move at all. It's not so bad moving one once.

[steven c newman]

Could always pick up (Barely) an ACME Saw Vise? Would not have to move the saw at all.....same one the Shop Sharpening Services use....

I Like my Wentworth....because, when not in use, it stores quite well up on a shelf. Bought it a few years ago..for $10....I can stop by Menard's or about any Hardware store, and pick up a pair of 6" X Slim Saw files, for around $6 or so.....Can usually sharpen 3-4 saws out of each file.

This was the 5th saw for that file...about time to get a new one?
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I also have a 4" XX Slim File for the finer teeth.....The red handle...I can just change out the files, handle has a chuck to hold the file's shank. The 4" File? I use it for the 9-11ppi back saws...

Have seen some older saw vises, where a length of rubber hose was slit, and then slipped onto each jaw of the vise.....Usually just a length of old air hose. Was supposed to cushion the grip, and reduce vibrations....and keep the saw from slipping in the vise....

IF you are leaving file marks on the vise's metal jaws.....it is because you have the saw too low in the jaws. Gullets need to be above the jaws a bit, because when the file is done, it is still just above the tops of the vise's jaws. That way, you are not also filing the jaws AND the bottom of the gullets....your file will last longer, that way.

[Tom M King]

The file marks on my vises were all there when I bought the vises. I had one old guy that worked for me back in the '80's that always hit the vise because he filed at so much of an up slope with the file. He was a really good carpenter though, and a lot older than me then, so I never argued with him about it.

[steven c newman]

I did see a Wentworth No. 2 saw vise today.....

[Mike Evans]

With any edge there is a compromise between being more acute or being more durable. The smaller included angle may cut easier (depending on application) but it will not last as long before dulling. What Mr. Sellers does is to add a back bevel to the tooth extending the life of the edge. You can extend the life of the edge of a hand plane blade by increasing the bevel angle, but it makes it harder push through the wood. Whether or not the extra effort is worth it is strictly in the up to the user.

[Edward Weber]

Changing the "back" bevel on a saw or bevel down plane does not change the cutting angle and therefore does not change the amount of force it takes to make the cut. A standard bevel down plane is set at a 45-degree bed angle. No matter what angle the iron is ground to, it cuts the wood at 45-degrees. The same can be said for saws, changing the back bevel does not change the cutting angle.
Creating a back bevel is only designed to leave more material behind the cutting edge, adding support in order to avoid chipping or increase longevity, as some believe.

[steven c newman]

Maybe after I clean this jig up...
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I can find out what all it can do....$1 at a garage sale this morning.

[Rafael Herrera]

Widening the angle of the saw teeth should increase the life of the edge of the teeth. I don't know if it's new or not, on japanese saws is called triple ground. Whatever the story is, it just goes to tell you that trying something new sometimes yields a benefit.
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[Edward Weber]

With Japanese saws being used opposite of western saws, the extra bevel works to ensure that the thin blade of the saw doesn't bind and or bend on the forward stroke.

[steven c newman]

Jig has been cleaned up..
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Can be set for both fleam and rake.....Add the saw file of choice...and go for it. Made by E. C. Stearns.


I'll stick with free-handing mine....