Martin T45 T54 Tersa vs Spiral

[Joel Gelman]

This was discussed back in 2018 and for the T54 jointer in particular. Perhaps people have a different preference when it comes to the planer.

I am curious if there are any new thoughts based on current experience with the Tersa vs X-plane spiral cutters. If you take ease of changing knives out of the equation. Cost of knifes out of the equation, and it is all about the quality of cut in a non high volume application, including highly figured woods, I was wondering what you all think of Tersa vs X-plane spiral for the planer and the jointer.

[Albert Lee]

would it matter? I mean, you still have to sand it, whether a piece of timber that has been planed using X-Plane or Tersa.. you cant skip the sanding?

[Jim Becker]

For highly figured material that's prone to tearout, the spiral head might be the better bet, but Tersa is no slouch for a straight knife and easy and faster to keep sharp.

[Patrick Kane]

Joel, i dont have an idea of the Martin x-plane surface finish, but fresh tersa knives leave a VERY nice surface finish. If you are fine spending the money to swap knives when they begin to degrade, i dont think you will be disappointed in the surface finish. I have the poor man's version of the T52, and fresh Tersa M42/M+ knives leave a glassy surface. Its honestly unlike any other planed surface i have experienced. Keep in mind, my experience is limited to straight knife DJ-20, straight knife Grizzly 12" jointer, and a powermatic 20" byrd head.

You are buying one of the best jointers ever conceived, so i think either option will meet your standards. If you want to swap Tersa knives after 100bdft and then send me your gently used tersa knives, ill be happy to take them : )

Im with Jim, its all about avoiding ANY tearout. Minimal tearout adds time to sanding. Moderate tearout can be 1/16" deep, and that requires a ton of sanding. If you have the room and budget for a widebelt, then i see this as a moot point.

[David Zaret]

joel - i migrated from Byrd heads to tersa, and i'll never go back. that said, i think both are viable, and will provide excellent results.

[Joel Gelman]

Interesting how spirals include Byrd and now Martin had "SHELIX" as their spiral option and now it is X-plane. Not sure if the current X-plane makes a difference. The spiral X-Plane is an upchage. Surely no one would pay that because they like to spend the extra time changing knives. So, was just wondering why people will pay X-tra for X-plane as it is my understanding that the X-plane is currently the most often selected option. I figure perhaps less tear out, especially in figured wood and quieter. Also I read that for the jointer, a potential an issue over maintaining perfect coplanar knives with outfeed, but that was just 1 post on an old thread. The old threads took things into account like price of knives and ease of changing knives etc. and I was trying to appreciate the difference with those factors out of the equation.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I don’t personally think that Byrd helical is apples to apples with high end manufacturers versions of spiral or helical carbide insert heads. I have had more issues and frustration with Byrd heads in particular (in other shops) that I would never want to own one. I would certainly consider a high end version (Hermance, etc.) and would say it’s a totally different level of quality than Byrd, but no real experience with the high end helicals. Is Martin’s version proprietary in some way?

I have a Terminus (equivalent of Tersa) 4 knife head on my Oliver jointer and I love it. The finish with sharp knives is among the best I’ve seen.

You’re saying to take cost, ease of setup, etc out of the equation but that actually is part of the equation in reality and how you perceive it once the honeymoon phase of acquiring the machine is over. Tersa is a great option in my book and has outright better finish quality than helical in most cases excepting *maybe* loads of highly figured / crotch figure type stuff, which is not something i typically deal with.

[Jim Becker]

One other thing to look at, Joel, is that spiral and helical are not necessarily the same thing...a lot depends upon how the knives are setup to engage the material with a shearing cut being the best. I seem to recall there was a big discussion about that here some time ago.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Hi Joel,
I've been told by Felder sales rep that they and several other European manufacturers approached Byrd in the early days, when they were still loading their machines with Byrd, as it was the only option. They had a list of requests / suggestions for upgrades and improvements. Byrd would have none of it = they all seem to have developed their own version of spiral/helical heads. "Zylent""x-plane", etc. Take a look at an image of a Byrd vs. these newer, refined options now offered in-house by Martin, etc. and you'll see quite different machining.

My jointer is still running a Byrd head that I converted to years ago and still love it. New SCM planer was manufactured with Tersa, but they allowed me to have them swap out for the spiral head prior to shipping. Of course, it does a fantastic job, and of course, I can detect slight ridges of a few thousandths, even on a brand new machine, but as others have stated, it gets sanded after jointing /planing.
With straight knives, all it takes is a small defect in a board, and you've got a chip in the knife. Standard reply is; "that's the beauty of Tersa - you can shift the knives sideways and it will eliminate the ridge" Yes, I remember those days with my first Delta planer, shifting knives. And frustrated when after just a few more boards, another ding and now either live with it or swap them out. Either way, more time working on machines instead of lumber...

FFWD> In my pro shop, I'd run my old Grizzly planer 18-24 months without touching the carbide. In an hour or two, I could loosen/clean/rotate/ re=torque carbide bits on that 15" head. No way I could convince myself to go back to a straight blade after that track record.

Bottom line: it seems to boil down to personal preference. Also seems related to what you're finishing with. The advocates say it's the cleanest, smoothest finish ever. Okay, are they relying on skipping the sanding prep work and going straight to the finish room out of the planer/jointer? If so, I get it. As a pro, that just isn't reality, so I'm a spiral carbide head convert, likely for life.

If you recall, we used Joe Calhoun's Martin's for stock prep in class, and yes, I do remember how very smooth and clean things came out. The Tersa does have an advantage in that regard, and based on your usage, I wouldn't discourage you're desire for that grade of cut right off the machine. I guess I'd direct you to that plain and simple truth: A Tersa knife will give you a smoother, flatter surface than any spiral head. On close inspection in a hard raking light, you will be able to detect ridges generated by a hundred carbides individually raking across your finished lumber. We're talking single digit thousandths, but indeed, they're detectable, if you're looking for nirvana. Nothing wrong in that at all.

Good luck - hope all is well with you!

Jeff

[Joe Calhoon]

I’ve been curious about this also. Martin has a spiral head T54 at the show. I made a few passes edging a piece of 10/4 hard maple. I could detect no ridges but my eyes are poor and the light not so good. Compared to my T54 with Tersa running 2 knives back pressure seemed about the same, noticeable quieter than the already quiet Tersa and the cut quality about the same as fresh Tersa knives. My takeaway is the quiet is nice and probably the spiral would be a little better than Tersa for difficult grain. The only downside being the longer knife change. This is probably not a issue in a low volume shop.
I don’t plan on making any changes from the Tersa but if I were would give the spiral serious consideration.
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[Joel Gelman]

I started out with a Delta jointer decades ago straight knives. Not much to be impressed with LOL. Then I had a Knapp JP with straight knives, and this was just before the spirals started to gain popularity being promoted as way quieter than the straight knife option and producing a cleaner cut especially in future woods. It was promoted as an upgrade. Of course that is not to imply this can be said of Tersa vs X-plane on a Martin T45-54. That Knapp had so many problems with the table being warped where they went out of business and Laguna was of zero help, I went with the TP300 spiral, although not the "X-plane. A drag to rotate knives but not something to do with any frequency and so not a factor for me. Again, unable to compare Tersa vs X-plane.

as an FYI, on the Martin price sheet, the X-plane is $2,770 more than Tersa and on the Jointer, it is $2,550 more. I did say, I wanted to compare with price out of the equation as so not to risk crying twice due to trying to save money. On the other hand, not need to cry even once for no reason.

Surely for this amount of an extra charge, where I am told this is selected by most buyers, there should be a clear advantage, I figured perhaps this X-plane compared to prior spiral-helical versions offered the advantage of quiet opeionrat and less risk of tearout in highly figured hardwoods and I was curious if anyone could compare. Of course the best comparison would be from someone that has personal experience with both rather than someone who has one vs the other and is happy.

[David Zaret]

joel - certainly finding someone with direct knowledge of that specific comparison could be tricky. i might suggest you reach out to Al Briggs - he's both a woodworker/cabinetmaker, and the martin tech expert in the US... al might have an opinion that's more valuable.

i mitigate the "slide the tersas over" by using carbide tersas in the planer. great cut quality, long life, and no shifting due to nicks. YMMV. either way, the martin is an incredible machine, and i'm sure you'll love it.

-- dz




I started out with a Delta jointer decades ago straight knives. Not much to be impressed with LOL. Then I had a Knapp JP with straight knives, and this was just before the spirals started to gain popularity being promoted as way quieter than the straight knife option and producing a cleaner cut especially in future woods. It was promoted as an upgrade. Of course that is not to imply this can be said of Tersa vs X-plane on a Martin T45-54. That Knapp had so many problems with the table being warped where they went out of business and Laguna was of zero help, I went with the TP300 spiral, although not the "X-plane. A drag to rotate knives but not something to do with any frequency and so not a factor for me. Again, unable to compare Tersa vs X-plane.

as an FYI, on the Martin price sheet, the X-plane is $2,770 more than Tersa and on the Jointer, it is $2,550 more. I did say, I wanted to compare with price out of the equation as so not to risk crying twice due to trying to save money. On the other hand, not need to cry even once for no reason.

Surely for this amount of an extra charge, where I am told this is selected by most buyers, there should be a clear advantage, I figured perhaps this X-plane compared to prior spiral-helical versions offered the advantage of quiet opeionrat and less risk of tearout in highly figured hardwoods and I was curious if anyone could compare. Of course the best comparison would be from someone that has personal experience with both rather than someone who has one vs the other and is happy.

[Jim Becker]

New SCM planer was manufactured with Tersa, but they allowed me to have them swap out for the spiral head prior to shipping. Of course, it does a fantastic job, and of course, I can detect slight ridges of a few thousandths, even on a brand new machine, but as others have stated, it gets sanded after jointing /planing.
With straight knives, all it takes is a small defect in a board, and you've got a chip in the knife. Standard reply is; "that's the beauty of Tersa - you can shift the knives sideways and it will eliminate the ridge" Yes, I remember those days with my first Delta planer, shifting knives. And frustrated when after just a few more boards, another ding and now either live with it or swap them out. Either way, more time working on machines instead of lumber...

Just keep in mind that shifting a Tersa knife over a smidgen takes only a few seconds and most of that time is finding something to whack the gibs down for that knife.