Hand planes

[Reed Gray]

Turning forever, but trying to get into flat work, which I gave up because I was a better turner. Anyway, I have a number of planes, and the soles on them are all slightly concave. Is this a design element? I always thought they were supposed to be dead flat. These include a Stanley jointer plane, some Lie Neilson planes, and even a Bridge City 12 inch plane.

I do have one cheap maroon Stanley one that was really bad, and got it dead flat on a granite stone with 80 and 220 grit abrasives.

robo hippy

[Jim Koepke]

I have a number of planes, and the soles on them are all slightly concave. Is this a design element?

To the best of my knowledge it is not a design element. It may have been caused by someone trying to lap the sole without knowing what they were doing.

There is likely to be as much disagreement on this point than there is on sharpening.

The biggest problem with a concave sole, imo, is the blade will not engage until it is advanced enough to touch the wood. Then it will dig in and take a much thicker shaving than intended. Otherwise, with downward pressure the blade will engage but disengage if the pressure is decreased. It is enough to make a person want to give up trying to plane a piece of wood.

What are you using to check the sole and how concave is "slightly concave?"

My preference is for my smoothers to be able to take a very fine shaving. My jointers are fine if they can take a moderately fine shaving, about 0.003" or so, as long as they do not have the problems mentioned above.

jtk

[Keegan Shields]

Might be a silly question, but have you verified your straight edge is straight? I wouldn’t think all of those planes would be out of flat given the manufacturers. Did you buy them new?

[Richard Coers]

Japanese hand planes use 2 different patterns on the working surface, one for truing and one for smoothing. They definitely not dead flat. Western planes do work better with flat and what you have was not intentionally a design element. If the Lie Neilsen is way off, call them and they will make it right.

[Mel Fulks]

I think the concave surface is usually from planing dirty wood . You know ,boards that were first into the truck bed sand pile. Old timers I
worked with had no patience for guys who would plane grit.
Worker: It’s My plane.
Boss: But you are re-sharpening on my time !
Some say that needless wear causes tear-out from from ‘rock peeling’ ( worn down steel front that won’t hold down wood surface down ,because of careless wear.

[Jim Koepke]

Old timers I worked with had no patience for guys who would plane grit.

Any piece of wood that looks dirty, even just cobwebs gets brushed off before a plane touches it. Sometimes it is a wire brush, sometimes not.

Even after sanding the wood should be cleaned before planing.

jtk

[Tom Trees]

Just wondering if you meant the opposite and the planes are infact convex?

Are you checking with a clean surface plate with feelers or doing similar stuff like hinging.......

Or did you check the pattern left from the abrasive with the plane turned upside down, and you see shined up toe and heel before anything else?

The latter should be the case if they are actually flat, as abrasion favours the edges,
and if you've done so, then chances are the plane is now slightly convex, by like a sheet of paper, which is around where one wants to be.

Going further will throw it out of whack if using a larger surface area of abrasive, than the plane is long,
and the only way to put that right is spot working with various methods,
I lay an abrasive strip not quite as wide, or as long as the particular plane being worked, and stack another identical size strip on top of that,
some prefer to use a wooden block and test on the plate afterwards with some blue or permanent marker.

If you still think otherwise, note that no one will show the results honestly which involves a surface plate and feelers.

What I'm talking about ain't for rocket science tolerances, but depending on how eager one might be,
one could unknowingly remove a good few pages and the cover! worth of material from toe and heel by believing a complete scratch pattern
means flat.
Just saying check the plane on something clean, and take note of toe and heel, could you slide anything under?
Keep an eye on that, as it's a lot of work to put right again.
484685
Tom

[steven c newman]

First off..throw the dang feeler gauges back into the drawer with rest of the Car Ignition tools, let me know when you are done with that


Dis-regard all you hear from the Flat Sole Group.....class them over with the Flat Earth Group.


You will need both of your index fingers....one for each end of the plane. one on the heel, the other on the toe...First, have them diagonally to each other..and press down...any wiggle? Next have them right in the center line, repeat the pressing down...any wiggles? If not, just shine the sole up, sharpen the iron, and put them back to work.

Has worked for me for about 50 years, so far.....

Wood bodied planes MIGHT warp...highly unlikely that cast iron will.....unless they had been in a fire at some time ( Fire Sale! )....

[Reed Gray]

Okay, several things here. First attempts to use the planes left me with a big arc, convex along the length of the board. Figured out that was mostly because of too much pressure on the nose when going off the end of the board. I also had a 10 or more degree angle to the top of the board. So, all pressure on the heel of the plane when going off the end of the board, and learned how to get the blade square to the plane body. Solved those problems, well mostly, still need more practice... I have been trying to take down a couple of boards, doug fir, and alder, to nothing but shavings, using low angle jack plane, jointer plane, 45 degree plane. Some times all goes well with a single full width shaving, and some times I get shavings that are full width to start, then switch to one side or the other of the board before I get to the end. Some of this was from the blade being too loose. Some of it seems to be from the sole of the plane not being flat across. This was worse with the Bridge City plane which I sent back. To check them for flatness, I place a straight edge nose to tail, and hold it up to my ceiling shop lights to see how much light shows underneath. Almost all of them have the heel and nose higher than the center of the plane. I lay a straight edge across the sole, and get similar results, with the outsides being higher than the center, which to me would explain the side to side shavings. I did use the 24 inch straight edges from Bridge City, and got identical sightings from all 4 sides of 2 rulers. I used a couple of their squares and straight edges to sight across the sole of the plane. The alder board started out 6/4 by about 6 inches tall. Now it is 3 1/8 on the starting end, and 2 3/8 on the finish end of the cut. Best guess is that since the tails on the planes are all a bit proud of the flat line, that is raising the heel of the plane as it goes off the board. The surface is not dead flat, but close enough so that if I was jointing some 4/4 boards, I could squeeze them into perfect allignment.

Getting the irons sharp has been the simple part. Diamond lapping plates and jigs. No one makes any kind of 'what am I doing wrong' videos on You Tube about what you will have to go through to learn to use the planes.... Have any of you watched Face Edge Woodworking from over in the UK? He sharpens on an old Norton India stone, strops with auto polish and that is his finished cutting edge. No jigs, all by hand and eye. I tried it on a 220 grit diamond plate and stropped. It actually cuts very nicely, though not as polished as if I used the 15000 grit diamond paste from DMT. Also watched Stumpy Nubs, Johnathon Katz Moses, Rob Cosman, and Matt Estlea from the UK.

The adventure continues....

robo hippy

[Scott Clausen]

I think most of your taper is due to technique. It took a lot of work to make me put full pressure on the toe at the start and zero at the end of the pass a habit. I also still need to do some stopped passes to adjust on the fly in some cases. Most of my old users show more wear on the leading edge of the toe than anywhere else but it doesn't seem to cause much trouble. If the flatness is bothering you go ahead and flatten it. The scratch pattern will quickly reveal how off it is. Leave the iron and frog in but retract the iron so the plane will be at its normal "flex". I usually only do this if I am doing a full rehab. I like using a granite countertop back splash to do this because it gives me a longer ramp to work with.

[Jim Koepke]

The scratch pattern will quickly reveal how off it is. Leave the iron and frog in but retract the iron so the plane will be at its normal "flex". I usually only do this if I am doing a full rehab.

As one who used to advocate the lapping of soles, my position now is to only lap them if it can be proven there is a need to lap a sole.

Many have likely done as much to distort the sole of a plane as have actually corrected a distorted sole.

If a plane's sole has a slight convexity it is very easy to increase the convexity with misdirected effort to flatten.

The cast iron of a plane's sole is quickly removed by abrasives. The particles of iron get caught up between the particles of abrasive and influence the work.

It is important to remove the powdered iron regularly, a large magnet wrapped in paper works for me.

It is important to check the work often and be able to remove metal from small isolated areas.

One of my old users was lapped by previous owners to the extent the sole was too thin to remain stable. Variations in the shop temperature would cause tensions between the frog and the base, causing the sole to change. All the other parts on the plane are good, but the sole can be a problem when the weather changes.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

As one who used to advocate the lapping of soles, my position now is to only lap them if it can be proven there is a need to lap a sole.

Many have likely done as much to distort the sole of a plane as have actually corrected a distorted sole.

If a plane's sole has a slight convexity it is very easy to increase the convexity with misdirected effort to flatten.

The cast iron of a plane's sole is quickly removed by abrasives. The particles of iron get caught up between the particles of abrasive and influence the work.

It is important to remove the powdered iron regularly, a large magnet wrapped in paper works for me.

It is important to check the work often and be able to remove metal from small isolated areas.

One of my old users was lapped by previous owners to the extent the sole was too thin to remain stable. Variations in the shop temperature would cause tensions between the frog and the base, causing the sole to change. All the other parts on the plane are good, but the sole can be a problem when the weather changes.

jtk
Yeah, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I have never had an issue with a plane (I think I have almost sixty now) that I would feel the need to alter the sole to cure. It was more about making it shiny as a secret Santa project but while I was at it I might as well make it dead flat. Not sure why but as the paper filled with iron filings I would use the shop vac often to remove them, never thought about the buildup changing the pattern. And good God, if someone laps a plane to the point of making it too thin they are using power to do it or they feel the need to do it every time they hone the iron IMO. I can remember a Wood Talk episode where one of them attempted to "fix" a LN plane. The LN rep took one look at it and said "what did you do to this plane!"

[Tom Trees]

As one who used to advocate the lapping of soles, my position now is to only lap them if it can be proven there is a need to lap a sole.

Many have likely done as much to distort the sole of a plane as have actually corrected a distorted sole.

If a plane's sole has a slight convexity it is very easy to increase the convexity with misdirected effort to flatten.

The cast iron of a plane's sole is quickly removed by abrasives. The particles of iron get caught up between the particles of abrasive and influence the work.

It is important to remove the powdered iron regularly, a large magnet wrapped in paper works for me.

It is important to check the work often and be able to remove metal from small isolated areas.

One of my old users was lapped by previous owners to the extent the sole was too thin to remain stable. Variations in the shop temperature would cause tensions between the frog and the base, causing the sole to change. All the other parts on the plane are good, but the sole can be a problem when the weather changes.

jtk

The same thing will happen with a clean lap, it's not the loose grit that causes the issue,
Not saying that it doesn't amplify what's happening, but same deal would happen if the lap were upside down.

Just like a file will do the same, no matter how careful one is
484745
https://postimg.cc/dhGgXVXq


@Reed I'm reading plenty of issues with technique, may I suggest the late great David Charlesworth,
particularly some snippets regarding "stopped shavings"
He made some videos, one of which was and still is the best planing video I've ever seen to date.
It was the old one at a gathering, not a newer one which I've not seen.

He's one of the only ones who don't have bad habits, and was both extremely precise and honest,
It's been at least a decade, and no one has come close to making a video that's even half as good.


Tom

[chris carter]

Unless I missed the information, I think the most important question is: did you purchase all of these planes new? Or from a third party who many have screwed them all up trying to “tune” them with bad info? The defect you are describing is so utterly bizarre that I cannot imagine the same defect coming from different makers and all going to the same customer. Which is why I ask if this collection of planes previously belonged to the same person.

I only have two metal soled bench planes, a newer Stanley Sweetheart and a Veritas LAJ. I just checked and they are both dead flat. The vast majority of my bench planes have wood soles and they are all dead flat because I periodically flatten them to make sure they are dead flat. When they get out of flat they do not cut well.

The planing problems described do not sound like concave sole problems. They sound like “practice has yet to make perfect.” While I have no experience with how out of flat metal soles affect planing, I have plenty of experience with wooden soles that are not flat and they don’t behave the way that was described. And although the corners can get worn down (not really all that important), the biggest issue is hollowing out near the mouth, meaning concave along the x and z axis (sorta like the OP described). Instead, they just become very finicky cutters. They will cut fine until the board gets pretty flat and then suddenly stop cutting. They will stutter cut. The cut will go from not cutting to cutting way too deep. Stuff like that. Luckily on a wooden sole, this is fixed in just a few minutes.

[Robert Hazelwood]

A concave sole is no good for a bench plane. Even a tiny amount of concavity that is within a high-end manufacturer's tolerance can cause problems. L-N's flatness tolerance is +-0.0015" which is very good, but you can notice even 0.0015" concavity when you try to create or maintain a straight surface. It's always wanting to take too much off at the ends. I think it also leads to issues with chatter, or inconsistent cutter engagement. On the other hand, a slightly convex sole isn't a big deal. I'd rather have a plane that's 0.005" convex than 0.0015" concave.

It's true that beginners will tend to plane too much on the ends until they develop better technique, but the equipment can be limiting as well. How does the Stanley that you flattened perform now? Can you tell a difference?

The good news is that its generally easier and less work to flatten a concave sole than a convex one. But when lapping you cannot use heavy pressure or you will flex the concavity right out. Use minimal pressure and keep the abrasive fresh and sharp.

[Reed Gray]

Well, the responses have given me a lot of food for thought. Never thought about keeping the blade in so the 'tension' stays the same as it would be if I was using it. Also, should have thought of keeping light pressure while flattening the sole since, being on the Brute Squad for all the Princess Bride fans, I could cause the plane to flex more. Seems like it will take a lot of repeated sessions to get the soles pretty much dead flat. Just can't focus for that long....

I did get my Lie Nielson planes new, gifts from my dad. That was maybe 5 years ago. All things considered, I think it best to fix them on my own. I may be being too fussy. Oh, Bridge City plane is supposed to be flat to .0002. I did try a .015 feeler gage and it wouldn't fit under the straight edge, though there was more light showing under the straight edge than I think is appropriate. Bridge City is concerned that I may mess up the smooth finish on the sole of the plane. No clue as to how fine it is, but I would guess that after enough abrasive sessions I could use my diamond lapping plates, which go to 8000 grit.

The old ugly Stanley cuts excellently now, a far cry from how it used to cut. I still need to spend more sessions on the sole of the plane to get it dead flat. No problem understanding the concept that if your sole isn't flat, then you will have a really hard time getting a straight edge on any board... I have lots of work to do...

robo hippy

[Brian Deakin]

Hi Reed
The best source of information I can reccomend for planning and handtools is

https://www.youtube.com/c/DavidCharlesworth/videos

David also has a range of videos and books which are excellent

https://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/

Davids videos may be available through Lie Nielsen in the USA

Please see tuning a handplane (Please note most of these steps would be not required for a Lie Neilsen plane)

https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/41436/011172036.pdf

[Charles Guest]

Well, the responses have given me a lot of food for thought. Never thought about keeping the blade in so the 'tension' stays the same as it would be if I was using it. Also, should have thought of keeping light pressure while flattening the sole since, being on the Brute Squad for all the Princess Bride fans, I could cause the plane to flex more. Seems like it will take a lot of repeated sessions to get the soles pretty much dead flat. Just can't focus for that long....

I did get my Lie Nielson planes new, gifts from my dad. That was maybe 5 years ago. All things considered, I think it best to fix them on my own. I may be being too fussy. Oh, Bridge City plane is supposed to be flat to .0002. I did try a .015 feeler gage and it wouldn't fit under the straight edge, though there was more light showing under the straight edge than I think is appropriate. Bridge City is concerned that I may mess up the smooth finish on the sole of the plane. No clue as to how fine it is, but I would guess that after enough abrasive sessions I could use my diamond lapping plates, which go to 8000 grit.

The old ugly Stanley cuts excellently now, a far cry from how it used to cut. I still need to spend more sessions on the sole of the plane to get it dead flat. No problem understanding the concept that if your sole isn't flat, then you will have a really hard time getting a straight edge on any board... I have lots of work to do...

robo hippy


Well, we've lost, or are about to lose, another soul to the tool-tuning devil.

Stop what you're doing and build something. Quit fettling premium planes. Quit buying planes. Buy some wood. Buy your wife dinner, but just quit buying planes.

[Tom Trees]

Cannot edit my post above.
I didn't realise this screenshot might not be viewable to the OP
https://postimg.cc/dhgKGJHChow

Once a plane is this flat, it shouldn't take but a few rubs and be good to go, no mad sessions necessary
If it were badly convex or had a trench, real bad rust, uneven thickness in width or whatever one found displeasing for whatever reason, it would take a lot of work to get it somewhere around the above stage,
so it can then be lapped with but a few licks on the full surface thereafter to gently make it convex, not by much.
A few licks will show up the abrasion favouring the toe and heel near instantly, good enough I think.
Checked by the above method would make that obvious, and is the only time the scratch pattern will correlate with what is actually happening
regarding convexity or concavity.

If the plane has a movable mouth this may not be a good idea to want anything but flat, so I wouldn't touch a premium tool sole with that function.

Get used to the "stopped shaving" exercise and see how well you can do with some cigarette paper. ala Charlesworth
Note that one needs to do this to some extent, which can be reduced, but not by lapping planes, but using the cap iron ala Weaver
Get used to Charlesworth tips first for accuricy's sake

Tom

[Jim Koepke]

Well, we've lost, or are about to lose, another soul to the tool-tuning devil.

Stop what you're doing and build something. Quit fettling premium planes. Quit buying planes. Buy some wood. Buy your wife dinner, but just quit buying planes.

My planes were fettled (tuned by the devil, me) years ago. Since then a lot of wood has been bought and used to make things and some have been sold for a profit. My wife, family and friends have also been taken to breakfast, lunch and dinner on the money saved from buying a good jointer for fifty bucks or less instead of paying $500 or more (current price at Lie Nielsen) for a jointer. A smoother will set a person back over $300. I have purchased a couple good Stanley smoothers recently for less than $150 for the two of them. Neither of them needed much more than a sharpening of their blades to get them working to my liking. One did have an old style frog replace an ogee style frog.


Cannot edit my post above.
I didn't realise this screenshot might not be viewable to the OP
https://postimg.cc/dhgKGJHChow
…
Tom

Tom, this got me to:

485316

With some advertising below. I think you wanted the URL to read > https://postimg.cc/dhgKGJHC

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

I have been thinking about this and I don't think I have ever checked any plane for flatness with two exceptions, 1) the one I was rehabbing and had already planned to lap and 2) my LV LA shooting plane to check for square. I check my planning progress with gage marks, strait edge and square. I can always achieve flat and square with any vintage plane, which I have never checked for flat, I pick from the litter. Maybe one day I will have trouble with it and start looking for an imperfection. Three things come to mind, don't sweat the little stuff if all is good, if not good suspect technique first and lastly start checking plane adjustments and flatness.

[Jim Koepke]

I have been thinking about this and I don't think I have ever checked any plane for flatness with two exceptions…

Three things come to mind, don't sweat the little stuff if all is good, if not good suspect technique first and lastly start checking plane adjustments and flatness.

Good advice along the lines of not trying to fix problems that are not there.

An important concept in life is learning to work with what you have whether it be finances, mechanical equipment, food in the pantry or another person.

Another important thing to learn in life is how to trouble shoot problems whether they be finances, mechanical equipment, food in the pantry or another person.

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgM-V2KpsRA(starting about 2:30) is a good illustration of scraping a surface flat in a controlled way.