WorkSharp - going from disk to stones

[Monte Milanuk]

I've had a WorkSharp 3000 for a few years now. When I initially got it, I set up a few disks with the WS branded higher-grit sandpaper, and a few with coarser (and cheaper) sanding discs from the local hardware store for 'grinding'. As time went on, I added a few goodies here and there - wide blade attachment, tool rest bar, leather strop wheels, etc. Even CBN discs when those became available.

For the most part, I've been pretty happy with it - as long as I stayed inside the original envelope, or ecosystem, using sand paper. Stepping outside of that has been... frustrating, to say the least. Change discs to something other than the OEM glass discs with sand paper, and the thickness changes, which throws off the WBA table adjustments. Even when sticking with the glass disks and sand paper, with the WBA adjusted as flat / true to the disk surface as I can using a straight edge... if I take a blade/iron, mounted in a Veritas Mk II honing jig, from the WBA down to a diamond plate, without changing the angle or adjusting anything... the bevel angle is different. Every time. Super aggravating.

I realize that when I'm going from the sandpaper to the stones/plates, it's essentially going from grinding the primary bevel to honing the secondary bevel, so it shouldn't *really* matter if they match up exactly. In theory, if I flip the cam adjust on the roller for the honing jig, it'll definitely be different. But it's driving me nuts (short trip, I know) that 25 degrees up on the WBA isn't the same as 25 degrees down on the plate.

Those of you who have the WBA - or a shop-built version thereof - is this the experience you've had? Or do I have something mis-adjusted somewhere?

[Tom Bain]

How often are you changing the primary bevel? I have a work sharp but I only use it when a chisel (or very rarely a plane iron) gets a bad chip or ding. I keep a fairly coarse grit on the plate to grind the primary bevel, then switch to stones. For intermediate sharpening and touch ups, I don’t go back to the work sharp. Just the stones.

[Mike Henderson]

I do the same as Tom. I create my primary bevel on the WorkSharp and then go to stones to finish - with a secondary bevel. So I put about a 25 degree primary bevel on my chisels with the WorkSharp and then perhaps a 30 to 35 (depending on what I'm working) with the stones.

If the primay bevel is not exactly 25 degrees, it doesn't matter.

Mike

[Monte Milanuk]

I get that... and that's generally what I want to do, too.

But am I being unrealistic, expecting the bevel angle should remain the same from one surface (the WorkSharp wide-blade platform) to the the other (diamond plate, water stone, etc.)?

I fully intend to change it, for the sake of honing a secondary microbevel, as you mention. But I want it to be under *my* control - not just something that 'happens' by dint of moving from one surface to another.

[Prashun Patel]

I use the worksharp and I have after market cbn discs that are great. They only go up to 1200 so like the others I use it for the primary bevel. My platform is home built. The nature of the spin also means it’s sometimes hard to get a straight bevel. I use an mk2 Veritas jig. It’s just table stakes for me to have to tap the blade to get a square grind. I just live with it. I have the same issues with a grinding wheel too. I am willing in both cases to trade precision for speed.

I make it up on the stones, which I free hand. As long as I get a good burr, I don’t care whether I am precise or not.

[Monte Milanuk]

Not having an issue with square/straight.

[Larry Frank]

I use the diamond disks on my Worksharp and hone with green compound. It is god enough for me. It seems everyone has a need for a different level of sharpness.

[Chris Parks]

I had a WS and after grinding the primary bevel I simply hand sharpened a mini bevel at a slightly higher angle around 30 degrees. Of course you could use a jig to do the mini bevel and that would guarantee the 30 degrees. I used diamond plates on it which seemed to work OK and cost a whole lot less. They simply sat on the glass disc that WS supply with no adhesive at all.

[Mike Henderson]

I used diamond plates on it which seemed to work OK and cost a whole lot less. They simply sat on the glass disc that WS supply with no adhesive at all.

That's what I do. For the port that sharpens on the bottom of the disk, the position of the abrasive is not changed by using a diamond plate. But on the top, if the diamond plate is thicker than sandpaper, your angle would be slightly affected. And especially if you have a diamond plate on both the top and bottom of the glass plate.

I think perhaps you're concerned about something that really doesn't make much difference. If you're doing a secondary bevel, the exact angle of the primary bevel is not that important. If it's a couple of degrees one way or the other it won't affect the use of the tool.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

I get that... and that's generally what I want to do, too.

But am I being unrealistic, expecting the bevel angle should remain the same from one surface (the WorkSharp wide-blade platform) to the the other (diamond plate, water stone, etc.)?

I fully intend to change it, for the sake of honing a secondary microbevel, as you mention. But I want it to be under *my* control - not just something that 'happens' by dint of moving from one surface to another.

Monte, I do not have a WS, nevertheless what you are wanting to do - keep the primary bevel the same as the honing angle - strikes me as being very inefficient, unless you are working with Japanese chisels or plane blades. The latter are laminated steel, with the soft layer easy to abrade. Consequently, honing the full face is not an effort, and this is the traditional way to hone Japanese blades.

Western solid blades, on the other hand, are not suited to be honed on the full by hand. Of course, one can do this, but it is inefficient. A better strategy with these blades is a secondary bevel by hand or honing guide, or hollow bevel and honed directly on the hollow (which is what I do). In both the latter instances, you are reducing the amount of steel to hone. This is what makes it possible to sharpen hard or abrasion-resistant steels.

Many of these so-called “sharpening machines”, such as the WS and Tormek, are really grinders. They do not create a high enough grit level to warrant being a sharpening machine. I typically go to 13000 grit on waterstones. Sometime higher.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

I have no idea how those things work, but there are many different angle setting methods that won't give the same results. There is only one way to transfer an exactly accurate bevel to every edge, for any chisel or plane iron, and that's to measure the angle from the top of the angle (back of the chisel/iron)in any jig, to the sharpening media surface. Projection methods, and such, don't account for different thicknesses of cutters.

For me, the primary bevel is just to get it out of the way of working the edge bevel. The edge bevel can take over as much of the primary bevel as you allow, but the main function is still to clear the way to sharpen the edge.

[Randy Heinemann]

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with sharpening a primary bevel with the WS, then hand sharpening a secondary bevel with stones. There are at least 2 reasons for the secondary bevel. First, and most significant, I think, is that re-sharpening the secondary bevel with stones is a quick and easy method to get a sharp tool rather than re-sharpening the entire primary bevel. While re-sharpening a secondary bevel would probably take 5 or 10 strokes on possibly up to 2 different grits (usually less; maybe even just the final finest stone), re-sharpening the primary bevel on a Woksharp or by hand requires much more effort and time. The second possible reason for a secondary bevel is that it is easier to change the angle on a secondary bevel for a special use of a tool than to regrind the entire primary bevel.

I owned a WS3000 for a long time and was always very happy with the result until I started understanding more about sharpening and that hand sharpening was really very easy with a honing guide and some good stones up t0 8000 grit. I would polish the back of a chisel to 8000, but if I ever had to put it back on the Worksharp for major sharpening, I would have to start all over again on polishing the back. Then I'd polish it and it would get scratched from the sandpaper on the tool rest. It was vicious circle. I just gave up on it altogether and have gotten much sharper tools with much less work with hand sharpening and using secondary bevels instead of resharpening the primary bevel over and over. I think this is the flaw in the whole Worksharp system when it comes to finer woodworking tools.

[Chris Parks]

The other flaw is that if you don't sharpen using the top surface of the disc then when using the bottom port only a small amount of the disc is used and the rest is wasted when the track that is worn no longer sharpens. I sold mine and now hollow grind on a CBN wheel, two water stones and under five minutes and the job is done. Watch David Charlesworth's video on sharpening a chisel to see how easy it is.

[Monte Milanuk]

Monte, I do not have a WS, nevertheless what you are wanting to do - keep the primary bevel the same as the honing angle - strikes me as being very inefficient,

Derek, I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm saying. I was trying to go from say, 25 degree primary on the WorkSharp, to a +2 degree secendary bevel (~27 degrees) on the stones... but finding that if anything, I was hitting the *heel* of the primary, not honing a microbevel. When I adjusted the cam back to what should have been 25 degrees, the problem was exacerbated. So no, I don't want to hone the secondary bevel at the same angle as the primary bevel... but it irritates the ever-loving crap out of me that 25 degrees isn't 25 degrees, period.

I've made it work in the interim by re-setting the stop on the honing guide to 30 degrees, and just leaving the roller cam adjustment alone. Currently going from the 1200 grit CBN disk on the WorkSharp @ 25 degree primary bevel, to a DMT 8000 grit diamond plate to hone a secondary bevel @ 30 degrees, followed by stropping with green compound. Seems to work, in terms of getting hair-shaving sharp. Still irritates me that it's not working the way I *expect* it to, though.


I owned a WS3000 for a long time and was always very happy with the result until I started understanding more about sharpening and that hand sharpening was really very easy with a honing guide and some good stones up t0 8000 grit. I would polish the back of a chisel to 8000, but if I ever had to put it back on the Worksharp for major sharpening, I would have to start all over again on polishing the back. Then I'd polish it and it would get scratched from the sandpaper on the tool rest. It was vicious circle. I just gave up on it altogether and have gotten much sharper tools with much less work with hand sharpening and using secondary bevels instead of resharpening the primary bevel over and over. I think this is the flaw in the whole Worksharp system when it comes to finer woodworking tools.

Simple solution... don't use the chisel port. Or replace the original 400 grit paper on the port with something finer.

[Dave Zellers]

Simple solution... don't use the chisel port. Or replace the original 400 grit paper on the port with something finer.

Or remove it all together. For serious sharpeners, it's a gimmick. For others, maybe it's useful. The WS 3000 is fantastic for re-establishing the (usual) 25º bevel. Crazy fast. After that you move to your favorite system of secondary bevelism. Right off the WS, I go to the very high stones at only a few degrees more than 25. Future honings get progressively higher until it's back to the WS.

The WS 3000 is insanely useful for me. But it's the beginning of sharpening, not the end. I imagine Tormek (sp?) users feel the same roughly.

[Derek Cohen]

I was hitting the *heel* of the primary, not honing a microbevel.

The angle setter on the WS is clearly different from that of your honing guide (which sounds like it may be the Veritas). I trust the Veritas far more than the WS. Check the angle of the primary bevel after the WS.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Heinemann]

Derek, I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm saying. I was trying to go from say, 25 degree primary on the WorkSharp, to a +2 degree secendary bevel (~27 degrees) on the stones... but finding that if anything, I was hitting the *heel* of the primary, not honing a microbevel. When I adjusted the cam back to what should have been 25 degrees, the problem was exacerbated. So no, I don't want to hone the secondary bevel at the same angle as the primary bevel... but it irritates the ever-loving crap out of me that 25 degrees isn't 25 degrees, period.

I've made it work in the interim by re-setting the stop on the honing guide to 30 degrees, and just leaving the roller cam adjustment alone. Currently going from the 1200 grit CBN disk on the WorkSharp @ 25 degree primary bevel, to a DMT 8000 grit diamond plate to hone a secondary bevel @ 30 degrees, followed by stropping with green compound. Seems to work, in terms of getting hair-shaving sharp. Still irritates me that it's not working the way I *expect* it to, though.



Simple solution... don't use the chisel port. Or replace the original 400 grit paper on the port with something finer.

Actually the simpler solution was to sell my Worksharp and start hand sharpening. I bought a great sharpening guide from Lie Nielsen and some coarse diamond plates. I already had fine Shapton stones. My chisels are immeasurably sharper and, with the Lie Nielsen guide and their suggested guide for setting specific angles, my life is much simpler. I never found the Worksharp to be quite the single answer that is marketed. Sharpening always involved more than one process and these processes aren't always compatible. So, hand sharpening gives me better results and the process is simpler.

[Monte Milanuk]

The angle setter on the WS is clearly different from that of your honing guide


The angle setter on the WS was never part of the equation - it doesn't fit plane irons easily or well.

[Monte Milanuk]

Actually the simpler solution was to sell my Worksharp and start hand sharpening. I bought a great sharpening guide from Lie Nielsen and some coarse diamond plates. I already had fine Shapton stones. My chisels are immeasurably sharper and, with the Lie Nielsen guide and their suggested guide for setting specific angles, my life is much simpler.

I'd gone kind of a similar route... scary sharp, then the WorkSharp, then moved away to diamond plates/stropping... but I'm still at the point in my 'journey' where I'm getting in new (to me) tools from time to time that need the primary bevel reground, or existing tools that need the primary bevel changed and/or 'fixed' for whatever perceived reason. Doing that by hand, on a coarse diamond plate or water stone... I've done it enough times to be over it. Electrons for the win when it comes to grinding, as far as I'm concerned. Free-hand (no jig) sharpening is on my to-do list, but nowhere near the top.



I never found the Worksharp to be quite the single answer that is marketed. Sharpening always involved more than one process and these processes aren't always compatible. So, hand sharpening gives me better results and the process is simpler.

On that, I would mostly agree. As long as I was willing to stay within the original envelope of sandpaper on glass disks, it worked pretty well. The edge from the 6k grit wheel is pretty sharp to most people who aren't hand-tool/edge geeks ;) So the marketing wasn't so much "wrong", as we just expect "more".

[glenn bradley]

I get that... and that's generally what I want to do, too.

But am I being unrealistic, expecting the bevel angle should remain the same from one surface (the WorkSharp wide-blade platform) to the the other (diamond plate, water stone, etc.)?

I fully intend to change it, for the sake of honing a secondary microbevel, as you mention. But I want it to be under *my* control - not just something that 'happens' by dint of moving from one surface to another.

You are correct that the change in abrasive causes a change in thickness and therefor the blade to abrasive intersection. I tend to use the wide blade platform and use the same jig / setting when I move to diamond stones. I use the built in micro bevel do-funny on the Veritas MK-II between WS3K and stones.

[Randy Heinemann]

For chisels, I don't see any good reason to change the primary bevel. Just put a secondary bevel on the tool that meets your needs. I tend to make all my chisels the same grind, although occasionally do change one. The same applies to plane blades; no real good reason to change the primary bevel. Just pick a common secondary bevel and hand sharpen/hone to that. Polishing the backs is possibly a different matter. However, I still have found that the only way to polish the back of a chisel or hand plane blade is by hand. Sometimes it takes awhile to make the back perfectly flat, but it's worth it in the end. I found that transitioning from the Worksharp to stones just never worked well. I'm not sure what else you sharpen but, for me, chisels and plane blades are it. My turning tools I sharpen on my Tormet or for a couple of hollowing tools, just by hand without a jig using a diamond handheld card-types. My life is simpler without the Worksharp.

[Dave Sabo]

I think the WS is really meant for the quick and dirty (good enough) crowd like onsite carpenters or those that just want sharp edges quickly.

One look at it should tell you it's not meant for the same micro honing .5 deg. triple bevel samurai crowd that buys their waterstone holders from Veritas or woodpecker and inspects their work at every step with an electron microscope. By the time those guys have taken the lids off their ponds, the WS man has already touched up his chisel and is back making chips or shavings. And is just as happy.

We should prob. feel sorry for the Tormek guy :cool:

[Warren Lake]

off a wheel gives a hollow grind. Then rest that on whatever you use to sharpen and it rests on the two high points. Hone that side and back. when you are getting dull hone the same way till you work back and eventually the hollow grind is gone. Then grind again. Ive done oil water and now prefer stick on auto body sandpaper. I dont want a honing gizmo, if im on site somewhere and need a sharp chisel dont want to be crippled from what I dont have. Dont like working on site anyway. Shop has five ways to do anything.