Raised panel doors

[Mark Stutz]

Well, another question from a novice. I'm planning, maybe should be hopeing, to do raised panel doors for my tool cabinet. I have never made raised panels either by hand or with electrons. How high should the panel be?

My dilemma involves constructing the frame. I had planned for traditional mortice and tenon using the groove for the panel to house the mortice, allowing there to be a haunched tenon on the rail. I'm concerned that unless I use a 1/4 in. groove centered on the stock, I risk blowing out the side of the mortice when chopping it. This means there is only 1/4 plus (stock should end up etween 3/4 and7/8) height left for the "raise" in the panel unless it is proud of the stiles. I don't have anything to compare to.

The other way is to simply chop the mortice and then groove the stiles and rails, but this would require stopped grooves on the stiles, doable but more work. This would allow me to use a thinner groove closer to the back and have the panel more raised.

I hope I have described things clearly enough. What say you, Oh learned Galoots!:D

[Alan DuBoff]

Mark,

My mind has been going through a similar thought process, as I prepare to create a common set of joinery and construction to use on various projects. For the panels I'm planning to use a No 48 plane, it will handle both the tongue and grooves. The panels can be t&g'd together also, or just glued up along the grain, but shouldn't be glued on the top, after inserted. Some folks use those small space balls to fit in the groove, so that the panel floats snugly. As long as the panel can float with climate changes, there shouldn't be a problem.

Modern frames and panels which are done with power tools use a cope and stick router bits. The stiles, rails, and mullions are connected that way. I plan to use m&t for those and to do my joinery by hand. I like draw bored tenons also, you can even use them and not have to use glue, but I plan to use glue I think.

Another way to put the panels in is to rabbet the edge inside the frame and inset the panel inside of it. If one goes this way you would need to use pocket screws or other way to secure the panel as they really shouldn't be glued on all sides. I like the idea of using t&g better, and acquired a Stanley No 48 for this very purpose recently. For a rabbet, the Stanley 78 would be a decent tool.

I was asking about a kinda similar question on the oldtools list, and many folks use the Joyce, "Encyclopedia of Furniture Making", book as a reference to solve this type of problem. I ordered a used one from Amazon but it hasn't arrived yet. I've looked through it and there is a lot of good info in regards to the question(s) you pose.

Another book that's pretty good, that I found used as well ($3.73;-) is a book by Ralph Yoder, called "Handcrafted Cabinetry". I got this book a few days ago, it has a lot of projects in it and talks about various ways to build furniture using traditional joinery. This one you'll need to weed through the power tools, but the designs are there from various craftsmen that yoder examines.

Many folks reccomend the Moser books, and I've looked at these. These are good with lots of projects in them, but less in the way of how to go about designing from scratch, which is what I was more after.

[Bob Smalser]

I'm concerned that unless I use a 1/4 in. groove centered on the stock, I risk blowing out the side of the mortice when chopping it. This means there is only 1/4 plus (stock should end up etween 3/4 and7/8) height left for the "raise" in the panel unless it is proud of the stiles. I don't have anything to compare to.

The other way is to simply chop the mortice and then groove the stiles and rails, but this would require stopped grooves on the stiles, doable but more work. This would allow me to use a thinner groove closer to the back and have the panel more raised.


Do the mortising first...3/8" is typical but 1/4" is adequate using today's glues, if you are concerned about damaging your stiles. Leave the stiles long and trim to length after the mortises are cut, to protect the end grain at the top of the mortise.

The groove is cut after the mortises....the groove doesn't stop - it goes from mortise to mortise....this won't be difficult. Offsetting this groove to the back edge of a 3/8 mortise to make a deep-set panel also is doable.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/38401087.jpg

For flush panels, bookmatch and reverse them like above. Otherwise there's not a thing wrong with them standing proud of the frame, if you don't want to go too thin with them....and that's what I'd do for the first time out.

[Alan DuBoff]

Bob,

Does that panel have a tongue on it, and if so, how do you groove the arch?

Do you glue the panel at all, or let the entire panel float?

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Mark. I would either make my panel thinner or rabbet the backside to allow the raised portion to be flush at the same height as the stile and rail. Personally I don't like it when the raised portion is above the stile and rail. Peter

[Jerry Palmer]

Traditionally, the raised portion of the panel is flush with the rails and stiles. A 1/4" raise in 3/4" material looks like a lot more. Rabbeting the back of the panel leaves the needed stock to fit into the grooves on the rails and stiles.

[Bob Smalser]

The problem with rabbeting the back of the frame is mounting the panel so it floats properly. The only pinning panels get if they are pinned at all, is a brad in the center top and bottom so the panel edges can move seasonally. Glue it in a rabbet...and it'll eventually crack, so if I used a rabbet, I'd use buttons to hold the panel in place. That wouldn't make the back side of the door very appealing.

Keep in mind that these panels don't have to be any thicker than 1/4" - 5/16" or so, as they aren't structural. They just have to be freefloating. So they can easily be made both flush with the frame and mounted in a groove, especially if you go 7/8" on rails and stiles, which for a tall door is recommended anyway.

In my Victorian copy above, the groove in the top rail was cut with a slotting cutter and shaper....exactly like the originals were.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Mark,

There are several ways to make the raised panel and rails/stiles by hand.
What I most often do is to thickness stock to a little below 1" for the rails and stiles. I determine which sides will be the fronts/backs. I make the fronts a reference face and gauge everything from the face.

I leave the rails/stiles a little over length and thickness. I mark the mortises off the face and they are set back about an 1/8" from the final thickness--final thicknessing will be performed from the back. Final thickness I usually use is 3/4", though on larger work it is 7/8". By leaving the thicknessing to the end I ensure that the thin portion beside the mortises is thicker until I am done. By leaving the extra length I ensure I will not pop out the end grain from levering the mortise chisel and the outboard end of the mortise.

I most often drill out the mortise, which is either 1/4" or 3/8" depending on whether the final thickness is going to be 3/4" or 7/8". The levering at the end of the mortise is usually because of the swan neck chisels I use to clean the bottoms out or to deepen them. However, if I just whack the mortises in--which is what I do if there are only a few, the extra length helps hold the end in place.

After the mortises are in, I connect them by cutting the panel groove. In the past I used either my 45 or 55. As I've sold these planes in my quest for less, I decided to make a plow plane before I go back to needing it. Saws are consuming me at the moment so it's not a big deal.

Once the grooves connect the mortises--your 98/99 will come in handy btw for widening the grooves to match the mortises--I make the raised panel. I usually use my moving fillister to make the raised panels unless I have a bunch of them. Then I use the shaper--sorry <g>.

The moving fillister needs a batten as a fence to guide it. Derek has a good photo of using a #140 and it is also very capable--he's made wonderful raised panels with it. The tongue of the raised panel is cut first--at least that's what I do. I use a panel gauge to determine where the top of the raised panel will be in the field of the panel. I then just chamfer/bevel between the end of the tongue and the gauged line, starting on the end grain first, then the long grain sides.

The distance between the back side of the groove to the front of the rails is what determines the thickness of the panel. On a 3/4" rail/stile that makes the final thickness of the panel 5/8". On a 7/8" R/S it is 3/4" thick.
Also, I usually gauge the field of the panel as stated above. But I usually gauge it slightly inside of the desired final field size. Why? Well, because I leave the panel a little thicker until after the chamfer is cut and plane it down a little to final thickness after the bevels are cut into the panel. That cleans up the top of the panel and brings it down to the height of the R/S.

I have some pictures somewhere if they haven't been tossed. If I cannot find them I can take some to illustrate any sticky points or where I haven't communicated clearly enough--it's one thing to do it, another to communicate what one doesn't really think about while doing it for the 50th time.

Take care, Mike

[tod evans]

mark, here`s some pics of how i go about doing traditional raised panels. as bob says, keep the styles long to avoid blowout......02 tod

30283

30284

30285

30286

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Mark,

For the panels I'm planning to use a No 48 plane, it will handle both the tongue and grooves.

Alan, remember the nr. 48 centers the groove on a board 7/8" thick so you will end up with a pretty thick panel.

[Jerry Palmer]

Tod,
Very cool doors. The top piece is beautiful, neat design. Gotta ask, though, how you did the raising on the top edge?

[Tom Scott]

After the mortises are in, I connect them by cutting the panel groove. In the past I used either my 45 or 55. As I've sold these planes in my quest for less, I decided to make a plow plane before I go back to needing it. Saws are consuming me at the moment so it's not a big deal.


Mike,
Why do the mortices first? It seems like it would be easier to plow the grooves first and then mortice so the mortices are centered. What am I missing?

BTW, I agree about leaving the stiles long to prevent blow-out.


Tom

[tod evans]

Tod,
Very cool doors. The top piece is beautiful, neat design. Gotta ask, though, how you did the raising on the top edge?

with a combination of power and hand tools, same on the straights, the profile is 7/8" wide and as we know spinning cutters will not give sharp inside corners. if a fellow was dead set on no electrons he could carve the whole scalloped profile but most of my clients really want fast if they can have the same finished product......02 tod

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Tom,

I usually do the mortises first so I can do a stopped groove without a stub tenon.

The times I do a stub, I do the groove first. Which after rereading Mark's original post, is how I should have answered...thanks for catching that.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan, remember the nr. 48 centers the groove on a board 7/8" thick so you will end up with a pretty thick panel.Dennis, yes I did know that, but haven't played much with the 48 yet as I just got it. I was planning on using 3/4" stock, will I need to modify something? Seems if I stay on the right side, the distance will be the same when I flip the cutters around. Is there a better hand plane for t&g? I've been told the 45 is more complicated to use, and they're more expensive to boot.

I was planning to t&g the panels also, seemed like a good idea when assembling the actual panel. But was planning to let the entire panel float inside stiles and rails.

[Jerry Palmer]

Oh no, I don't have a problem with murdering a few electrons now and again. Don't know that I could do as much handwork as I do without killing a few (or more) cranking the compressor on the AC hanging out the window of the shop. :)

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Dennis, yes I did know that, but haven't played much with the 48 yet as I just got it. I was planning on using 3/4" stock, will I need to modify something? Seems if I stay on the right side, the distance will be the same when I flip the cutters around. Is there a better hand plane for t&g? I've been told the 45 is more complicated to use, and they're more expensive to boot.

I was planning to t&g the panels also, seemed like a good idea when assembling the actual panel. But was planning to let the entire panel float inside stiles and rails.

Alan, you can do it, but its not as brainless as it would be if you used 7/8 stock. Just register off the same face all the time. I was making bead board with mine and got confused regularly. Ended up with a lot of extra scrap. The 45 is definitely harder to use than a 48 for making tongue and grooves. A set of wooden match planes works best for me. They don't even have to be the same manufacturer since the irons are straight you can grind them to match.

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks to all for your replies and help.

Bob,
I probably wasn't too clear. I have the stiles 2" long on each end, but was concerned about the sides if I did not center the mortice, but Mike suggestion of thicknessing after the mortices are cut sounds like it will work. I had planned to use 1/4 because that's the chisels that has a handle! I'm not as fast at making them as you!:D ;) I think there is a 3/8 that I can get functional. Do you think it will make much difference? I will probably draw bore them as well.

Mike,
Thanks for the tips. I think that will take care of not blowing out the side. The end I had covered.:D I'm still not clear how to do the groove. I can't envision a 45 being short enough to work without a very long mortice.

Tod,
Those are beautiful. Maybe someday.

Alan,
Have you played around with the #48 yet? I found the the T&G didn't fit well and had to be tweaked quite a bit. I wasn't sure if it was the nature of the beast or if I was doing something wrong in the set up of the cutters.

Will keep you posted with the progress. Hope I haven't bitten off more than I can chew!:eek:

Mark

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan,
Have you played around with the #48 yet? I found the the T&G didn't fit well and had to be tweaked quite a bit. I wasn't sure if it was the nature of the beast or if I was doing something wrong in the set up of the cutters.I haven't had a chance to use it too much yet, and have not sharpened the blades. I just got it a couple days ago.

I have been thinking about this and it seems that you might have been planing on the wrong side of the board? IOW, even if the tongue wasn't centered, wouldn't it still work out the same as long as you planed on the proper side to reflect the same distance as the tongue? By planing the opposite side, unless the material was exactly 7/8" (what the 48 was intended for), the groove and tongue would be off, I think.

[Mark Stutz]

Alan,
As long as you reference off the same face it will work. You can use different thickness boards for example, and as long as you reference off the "front" that side will be flat. The problem I was having was that the tongue was thicker than the groove. I just took some off the back side of the groove to make it fit, or you could thin the back side of the tongue.

Hope this comes out clear. I didn't take any close up pictures but I will later this week if I can get the time.

Mark

[Alan DuBoff]

The problem I was having was that the tongue was thicker than the groove. I just took some off the back side of the groove to make it fit, or you could thin the back side of the tongue.That sounds like the cutters were not aligned properly, or that something is off in the angle of the blade maybe? The mechanism that holds the blades in seems a bit crude, but works. I can see how the blades could get out of alignment though, and might need to be adjusted to match the proper width, for the groove.

If the tongue is too large, wouldn't it be easier to take the tongue down with a rabbet plane? Should still be plenty strong. Either way would work.

Better would be to make sure the width of the tongue (i.e., distance between the two blades) matches the exact width of the blade that is used for the groove (both *should* be the same size). I thought you need to adjust each time, or at least check it.