LagunaP12 vs. Felder K3

[Joseph Mazey]

I imagine the sliding table saw topics have been seriously beaten up on here. I am after more of am i comparing apples to apples here. Have an online business. Currently have a Grizzy hybrid cabinet saw and cut a lot of 1/4" MDF core white melamine. If there is a mealmine blade in existence i have tried them all. Some are awful, others pretty good. The one thing i know i get in a slider is a scoring blade and it is hands down the cleanest cut in melamine. My saw runs with dust collection both underneath and overhead. I dont need a full sheet compacity cutting but my pieces i work with are 16x48 so the slide would be beneficial from a control standpoint. These are the links to the 2 saws i am looking at.

https://lagunatools.com/industrial/panelsaws/p12-5/

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/products/sliding-table-saws-c1947/sliding-table-saw-k3-p579501

Felder a few $$ cheaper but like the dust collector setup on the Laguna. Also know they use different slide mechanics.

Appreciate any feedback.

[Aaron Inami]

My comments are not from direct experience, but from reading a whole lot of threads/comments and experience with other different levels of machines.

I think the Laguna machines are mostly all going to be Chinese copies of something. For example, their DB12|6 belt/disc sander is an exact copy of the Grizzly ShopFox W1712. Their edge sander is an exact copy of the Jet edge sander which is an exact copy of the Baleigh low end edge sander which is a copy of the Axminster edge sander. lol.

I don't know what their slider is based on, but it really reminds me of a cross between a Cantek P305 and Cantek P30 with a shorter sliding table.

My understanding from many others is that the Chinese import machines are very good for the money, but they are all going to have some small annoyances here and there. However, if I were in your position, there are several things that may tilt my preference towards the Laguna:

- All the parts are going to be much heavier duty (crosscut fence, crosscut stops, outrigger table, etc.)
- Machine is very hefty at 1400 lbs (Hammer is just over 600 lbs).
- Crosscut fence allows for extremely wide sheets (77" with extension up to 140") - this allows you to crosscut full sheets if you need to, but you can still only straight-line cut about 50"
- Much bigger outrigger table - better support / manageability for larger sheets or pieces of wood
- Overhead dust collector / guard (while not as good as the Cantek, it's better than what you would get with Hammer). The Hammer K3 dust hood is a pain to use and not effective at all.
- A little beefier main saw motor
- Separate motor for scoring (Hammer scoring blade runs off main saw motor via a belt and is always running, which leaches power from the main motor).
- Table can be locked in many positions when sliding forward-to-back (I believe the Hammer slide can only be locked in center position or fully all the way back).

The only thing in my mind that might be better on the Hammer is a longer sliding table. With fence/clamps, the Laguna only give you about a 50" cut. The Hammer table is 79", which will give you about a 65" cut. The Hammer might be slightly better made, but all the components are going to feel like toys compared with the Laguna (based on what I know). The Hammer is also easier to move around with their mobility kit. The Laguna will require a pallet jack if you want to move it around.

I know it's not going to be conclusive, but watch the following video. It's a third party review of a Grizzly slider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIOGCeLsBlU

I know Grizzly is different than Laguna, but it will give you an idea on a Chinese made saw. Actually, looking closer, the Laguna P12|5 looks very much like that Grizzly G0699 but with a short slider and smaller 5HP motor.

Here's a video of the Hammer K3 (which he describes some annoyances in the Hammer as well):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6sDBjty6jo

I hope others who have direct experience with these machines can comment more.

[Jim Becker]

You may also want to add the SCM/Minimax SC3C to your consideration list. The Laguna you ask about does have the advantage of the native overarm collection and not standard on the Felder/Hammer or SCM/Minimax units. But a $400 overarm setup from Grizzly is available that to me is pretty attractive for the purpose.

[Joseph Mazey]

You may also want to add the SCM/Minimax SC3C to your consideration list. The Laguna you ask about does have the advantage of the native overarm collection and not standard on the Felder/Hammer or SCM/Minimax units. But a $400 overarm setup from Grizzly is available that to me is pretty attractive for the purpose.

I did get a quote back on the Minimax and price was good. The biggest issue with them is their lead time currently is mid-Oct. Felder had one coming in at the end of this month. Laguna not sure though can only wonder how one would move a 1500lb saw where it needs to be.

[Jim Becker]

I did get a quote back on the Minimax and price was good. The biggest issue with them is their lead time currently is mid-Oct. Felder had one coming in at the end of this month. Laguna not sure though can only wonder how one would move a 1500lb saw where it needs to be.
Yes, I'm aware of the mid-October date as I have one on order. :) For me, that's perfect timing as my new building will be up so I have a place to put it when I pick it up and it's a "familiar" machine to me as I had one of their larger machine in my previous shop.

As to moving, once it's at your shop, a pallet jack is your friend. If the machine will stay in one place once located, a rental makes sense. If you will likely move it again from time to time, buy a pallet jack. Just check the specs so that the pallet jack is appropriate to the specifications of the machine you decide to buy.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Are you only considering new machines?

If considering used look for a SCMI SI-12. Has around ~60” or stroke IIRC, will be built better than anything on your list, and will be half the price or less. 12” blade with separate scoring motor. I have seen a few nice/complete ones for sale recently in the $3-4K range. They will be 3 phase, though...maybe you’re trying to avoid that.

I looked up the Laguna P12/5 and it does look reasonably well built for what it is. I wonder who actually makes it. Seems a pricey way to go for a short stroke slider just to cut melamine, but *shrug*.

The Felder K3 looks like a toy to me, but I tend to like heavy machines.

[Joseph Mazey]

I have tried to weigh the idea of need as well. My grizzly cost me $1100. It has done worked but the fence is garbage. Theovehead dust was awful and replaced that right away with a shark guard. I do like the grizzly overhead as it is 4" port. As i have read in other posts most melamine blades produce a good side and that is what i have now. I try to be a perfectionist with the white but as others have said one side normally down and once you put crap on it no one going to get right on top of it and analyze it. It also comes down to revamp my current saws fence and get an incra or spend the money on a saw that though it may not have its full use now, down the road it may and then why invest making a old saw better if it eventually goes.

[David Stone (CT)]

I am after more of am i comparing apples to apples here. These are the links to the 2 saws i am looking at.

As someone who's had a Hammer K3 for a long time, considers it an old friend and is very familiar with its characteristics (and just skimmed through the specs and manual for the Laguna machine), I feel confident in saying the answer is no, you're not comparing apples to apples. The K3 is a machine optimized for hobbyists and maybe some solo craftspeople looking for a compact sliding table saw that is generally well executed and accurate for what it is but also comparatively lightly built and probably not the right platform to lard up with features or subject to the beatings of a commercial environment. While I don't have a scoring saw on mine and so can't speak from direct experience, I'd tend to suspect the scoring saw feature offered on the K3 is pretty rudimentary and I'd be a little skeptical it's the right choice for someone whose principal purpose in upgrading is to better handle melamine. Also, I would not expect meaningful above-the-table dust collection as it comes from the factory. (And, btw, I'd bet these comments hold true for whatever are the comparable Minimax model(s), though I don't know their line specifically, since it's really about this class of machines, not the brand.) This is not to suggest the Laguna machine is therefore better for everyone --I've never even seen it and anyway I can't imagine trying to deal with a 1,400 pound saw in my little shop. But it sure looks like a different paradigm.

[Aaron Inami]

The only other potential saw here is the Maksiwa BMS.1600.IR. It's priced at $5k plus freight shipping. Based on specs, it appears to be a light-weight version of the Laguna (somewhere in between the Hammer K3 and Laguna P12). Separate scoring motor. Weighs about 800 lbs. Not sure about quality or performance. There's not much feedback out there on Maksiwa. The Laguna looks to have better designed features (such as cross-cut stops, overhead dust, etc.).

[Mike Wilkins]

I have had a Laguna Pro 6' sliding saw for about 8-10 years. I couldn't go larger due to the limited shop size. Lots of power, scoring saw powered by a separate motor, heavy/robust outrigger set-up. I have not used the scorer much but it's great for sheet goods. I can't rip a full sheet of plywood, but have not had a need to do so (my track saw can take care of that). It is a well built machine comparable to the 12/5 model they now sell. I can't comment on the Hammer saw, but I do have their 16" jointer/planer machine and a Hammer shaper currently on a ship crossing the Atlantic.
Either should be good shop companions.

[Jim Becker]

I did get a quote back on the Minimax and price was good. The biggest issue with them is their lead time currently is mid-Oct.
Following up on my previous...my SC 3C was due in early to mid October. It's now arriving at the port in Savannah on the 15th of this month based on an email I received yesterday. (I'm having to scramble so I have a place to park the crate because my building doesn't go up until mid-September) Now if I actually "needed" it...it would have been delayed for sure. LOL

[Derek Cohen]

I suspect that Laguna is made by Harvey. For example, their table saws look identical.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Aaron Inami]

I suspect that Laguna is made by Harvey. For example, their table saws look identical.

That may be true for there cabinet table saws as they do look exactly the same. However, I actually think their sliding table "panel saws" are slightly better versions of the Grizzly sliders (such as G0820, G0699, G0764Z). If you look carefully at the components, such as over-head blade guard dust collector, outrigger table, outrigger support system, sliding table shape/size, eccentric clamps -- they are all exact carbon-copies of the Grizzly saws. However, Laguna components have some better configuration, such as magnifier glass line for the cross-cut stops, better on-off control buttons and emergency stops, etc. I also think the Laguna paint job / finish looks nicer than the Grizzle green.

[Jim Becker]

Arron, a lot of tools are made in the same physical facilities, so despite the paint and feature differences, there "could" be a relationship.

[Aaron Inami]

Arron, a lot of tools are made in the same physical facilities, so despite the paint and feature differences, there "could" be a relationship.

Yeah, totally understood that these saws are likely made in the same Chinese factory. It's not necessarily "Harvey" that is making them, but the same people making both Harvey/Laguna cabinet saws almost exactly the same but with some minor differences. Just as likely that the Chinese factory is making the Grizzly and Laguna sliding panel saws but, again, with some differences.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Aaron

Harvey is the factory. They produce machines under their own name. They build machines for others as well. The also make all the Bridge City tools (which they own).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Becker]

That's a good point, Derek. The company marketing as Havey has been a long-time contract manufacturer who decided to sell some gear under their own name, two, awhile back, as well as buy the Bridge City brand and keep those things flowing to the marketplace. Part of their own-brand strategy also includes their innovative dust collection systems in addition to the more "typical" major tools and accessories.

[Joseph Mazey]

Want to add one more comment to this as I have not got the straightest of answer from Felder. They are telling me the scoring blade is a little thicker than the main blade. The issue I have with that is I run my 48" boards through to cut 3 pieces at 15". If the scoring blade is wider and say in alignment with the main blade on the right side, this means on the left side there is a hair difference. After the first piece cutout I have a square edge on both side, but the next piece on the right side, would it sort of look the scoring blade shelfed my board? They did say I can order the scoring blade the same size as the main blade 484132

[Aaron Inami]

My understanding is that there are two types of scoring blades. The first type is a single blade which is a conical or tapered blade. This means the width of the blade tooth is smaller at the tip than it is as the base. See the picture on this page here (difference between B3 and B4 width):
https://www.scosarg.com/omas-scoring-blade-d-150-b3-4-3-b4-5-5-z-36-d-50

It can be a pain because you need to use a digital caliper on the blade tooth and only raise the scoring blade up enough so that the blade cuts a width that matches the width of your main saw blade. The downside is that the scoring blade has to be centered with the main blade. The problem here is that not all saws allow side-to-side adjustment of your scoring blade which means the scoring blade is going to be a little bit off center.

The second type is a stackable/adjustable scoring blade. It comes with two very thin scoring blades and a set of shims you can place in between to make the cut thicker to match the main saw blade. It almost looks like a micro-dado set. Example here:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Tungsten-carbide-tipped-adjustable-scoring-blade_1600187554346.html

Make sense?

[Robyn Horton]

My Hammer K3 does have the scoring option and uses the 2 thin blades and the required number of shims to match up with the main blade. It does also have side to side adjustment to center it up with the main blade. Super easy to do
Once you have it set up Correctly both of the pieces that you cut will be the same .. just a good straight 90 deg edge

[Joseph Mazey]

@Aaron Inami (https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?248906-Aaron-Inami) - that makes sense. The first option sounds painful with a cut/adjust cycle. Thank you for the breakdown.

@Robyn Horton (https://sawmillcreek.org/member.php?4885-Robyn-Horton) - thank you for confirming. That at least allows me the control to align on center or adjust as needed.

Want to thank everyone for their responses. I did pull the trigger on the K3 Hammer as availability was end of this month. I might have gone after the SCM if it was available sooner but as we approach October, busy season starts and wanted at least a quiet month to get up to speed on use and features.

[Jim Becker]

Want to add one more comment to this as I have not got the straightest of answer from Felder. They are telling me the scoring blade is a little thicker than the main blade. The issue I have with that is I run my 48" boards through to cut 3 pieces at 15". If the scoring blade is wider and say in alignment with the main blade on the right side, this means on the left side there is a hair difference. After the first piece cutout I have a square edge on both side, but the next piece on the right side, would it sort of look the scoring blade shelfed my board? They did say I can order the scoring blade the same size as the main blade 484132

One must choose a scoring blade that matches the kerf width of the main blade or a scoring blade that is adjustable width. IMHO, they must be identical kerf for best results. I own a scoring blade that is an exact match for the Forest blades I use in the main position, for example.

[Rod Sheridan]

Want to add one more comment to this as I have not got the straightest of answer from Felder. They are telling me the scoring blade is a little thicker than the main blade. The issue I have with that is I run my 48" boards through to cut 3 pieces at 15". If the scoring blade is wider and say in alignment with the main blade on the right side, this means on the left side there is a hair difference. After the first piece cutout I have a square edge on both side, but the next piece on the right side, would it sort of look the scoring blade shelfed my board? They did say I can order the scoring blade the same size as the main blade 484132

Hi Joseph, We set the scoring saw blade 0.1mm wider than the main blade, and centered on the main blade. Buy the split scoring saw that’s adjusted by shims, do not buy the conical blade as the kerf varies with blade elevation.

The scoring saw is only above the table when cutting melamine (typically), and is only high enough to cut the melamine. It does not result in boards with tapered edges, if you look at the cut with a magnifier you’ll see a rebate about 0.05mm in dimension.

There, now you’re receiving an answer from Felder (Felder-Group Canada).��

Regards, Rod

[Aaron Inami]

It will be interesting to get your feedback on this K3 once you have it in place. This is the 80mm adjustable/stackable scoring blade you want for that machine:

https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/scoring-units-sc91901/adjustable-scoring-blade-sp91907

(https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/scoring-units-sc91901/adjustable-scoring-blade-sp91907)I would recommend getting the outrigger table (if you haven't). It looks like the K3 79x48" is on sale right now. 20% off!

[Mike King]

Want to add one more comment to this as I have not got the straightest of answer from Felder. They are telling me the scoring blade is a little thicker than the main blade. The issue I have with that is I run my 48" boards through to cut 3 pieces at 15". If the scoring blade is wider and say in alignment with the main blade on the right side, this means on the left side there is a hair difference. After the first piece cutout I have a square edge on both side, but the next piece on the right side, would it sort of look the scoring blade shelfed my board? They did say I can order the scoring blade the same size as the main blade 484132

you say "board" -- when I hear board, I think lumber stock. I'd never use scoring with lumber; rather, scoring is for laminates (like melamine and veneer faced sheet goods). The purpose of scoring is to pierce the chip susceptible laminate/veneer. A very slight difference in kerf width between the laminate and the substrate is usually not a problem...

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Mike, while I don't use scoring the majority of the time with solid stock, I have employed it occasionally for something that it was critical for me to get a very clean cut both top and bottom. It's less likely to have a zero clearance setup on a slider so having the option is nice. It's the same principle as with delicate sheet goods as you describe.

[Mike King]

Mike, while I don't use scoring the majority of the time with solid stock, I have employed it occasionally for something that it was critical for me to get a very clean cut both top and bottom. It's less likely to have a zero clearance setup on a slider so having the option is nice. It's the same principle as with delicate sheet goods as you describe.

That's interesting, I've never thought about using scoring for lumber. Then again, I don't think I've ever had an issue with chipping on the bottom of my lumber cuts, but that may be due to the sharpness of my blades and their cleanliness.

That being said, I don't use scoring on my CF741. I recently bought the correct size of scoring blades, but the Felder requires using a smaller main blade on the 700 series saws when using scoring and I don't have a 250mm crosscut or ripping blade...

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Yea, it's not something that might be immediately intuitive, but scoring capability can sometimes be a "problem solver" and I'm looking forward to the new slider I bought for the new shop which includes that feature. I have felt so constrained using a cabinet saw as well as all too often being in the "line of fire" when cutting, after having a slider for so many years and getting used to being off to the side.

[Rod Sheridan]

That's interesting, I've never thought about using scoring for lumber. Then again, I don't think I've ever had an issue with chipping on the bottom of my lumber cuts, but that may be due to the sharpness of my blades and their cleanliness.

That being said, I don't use scoring on my CF741. I recently bought the correct size of scoring blades, but the Felder requires using a smaller main blade on the 700 series saws when using scoring and I don't have a 250mm crosscut or ripping blade...

Mike

Hi Mike are you sure that you can’t run a scoring blade with a 315mm main blade?

I don’t remember the 700 series having an issue with that…..Regards, Rod