Stupid Chisel Question

[James Jayko]

Hi All,

I've got a set of Lie Nielsen chisels which I like, but the stupid socket design is sorta driving me crazy.

I was looking at that Narex Richter set and it reminded me that they're metric and then in imperial (ish); IE 1" = ~25MM. Would anyone care about this, like, when you use an imperial router bit that's exactly an inch but your chisel is slightly oversized? Am I just thinking WAAAAY too hard about this?

What tang style chisels do you like?

[Jim Koepke]

Hi James, is the part of "the stupid socket design" driving you crazy about how the handles tend to slip off?

Part of the problem with this, my suspicion, is the insides of the Lie Nielsen sockets are smooth. This makes it difficult for a handle to stay put. The old solution to this was to apply a spray of hairspray to the inside of the socket to make the handle grip better.

Most of my chisels are socket chisels. For me it is easier to fit a new handle. In the past a few of my handles were regularly loose. After a bit of careful trimming of the taper on the handle's tenon this problem hasn't occurred for the last few years.

In theory if the taper of the socket and tenon are a perfect match the fit between the two shouldn't come loose.

With an older chisel it is easy to address this issue. The oxidation on the inside of the socket will leave a dark area on any high spots on the tenon. A pass or two with a smooth file will soon lead to a perfect interference fit. With the Lie Nielsen sockets you might need to use a dusting of graphite powder to mark the tenon. It might also help to spin some sandpaper inside the socket to rough it up a little.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

To answer your question about if anyone cares about the metric to imperial conversion, it does not matter if we care, it's if you care.

I guess the only time I worry about the exact width of the chisel is when cutting mortises or some sort of groove, but you normally would size the marking gauge to the chisel. I guess width isn't as important as accurately laying out and sizing parts to fit. This is all dependent on how you work though. If you are only using the chisels to clean up after machines, the width of the chisel matching you router bit or dado stack may be more important.

Jim offers good suggestions to combat the fact that socket handles fall out. I have a set of Stanley 750's and I love them. I guess it's personal opinion.

[Rafael Herrera]

Hi All,

I've got a set of Lie Nielsen chisels which I like, but the stupid socket design is sorta driving me crazy.

I was looking at that Narex Richter set and it reminded me that they're metric and then in imperial (ish); IE 1" = ~25MM. Would anyone care about this, like, when you use an imperial router bit that's exactly an inch but your chisel is slightly oversized? Am I just thinking WAAAAY too hard about this?

What tang style chisels do you like?

You don't like them because they are coming loose or you don't like the balance of the LN chisel?

Unless you choose to do so, there's no compelling reason to have the chisel measure exactly a specific width. It's the other way around, you use the chisel width as reference if you need to cut something in that width. Also, there is no rule that mandates that something must be exactly 3/4" or whatever, you work with what you have.

I like tang chisels with octagonal bolsters.

[Scott Winners]

Now that I have a fair selection of each, I prefer the socket style to the tang style. Mine socketed ones tend to get loose towards the end of my dry season unless I keep using them regularly over the winter.

As Jim K already pointed out, it is relatively easy to make a handle contour that fits your hand better. Also, though I have not yet broken one, if I ever do making a replacement (since I do own a lathe) will be fairly straight forward.

The most important part of a chisel is a good edge. If a chisel won't take a good edge it is worthless.

[James Jayko]

I really like the chisels, but its 100% the handles falling off. I'm well invested in them at this point so the hairspray/sand paper is probably a good idea. But in hindsight, I'm not exactly sure I would buy socket chisels again for that reason.


You don't like them because they are coming loose or you don't like the balance of the LN chisel?

Unless you choose to do so, there's no compelling reason to have the chisel measure exactly a specific width. It's the other way around, you use the chisel width as reference if you need to cut something in that width. Also, there is no rule that mandates that something must be exactly 3/4" or whatever, you work with what you have.

I like tang chisels with octagonal bolsters.

[Rafael Herrera]

I really like the chisels, but its 100% the handles falling off. I'm well invested in them at this point so the hairspray/sand paper is probably a good idea. But in hindsight, I'm not exactly sure I would buy socket chisels again for that reason.

I would suggest you look at them this way, the handles come from the factory needing just a bit of fitting, why assume they are a perfect fit, they're mass produced? A bit of sandpaper or rasp should close the gap in fitting the handle and you're set. I don't use mine often, I prefer other chisels, but I've not had issues with the handles coming loose with the change of seasons, properly fitted they will stay put.

[Jim Koepke]

I really like the chisels, but its 100% the handles falling off. I'm well invested in them at this point so the hairspray/sand paper is probably a good idea. But in hindsight, I'm not exactly sure I would buy socket chisels again for that reason.

A well made handle on a socket chisel should hold on well. With current production of socket chisels the makers may have erred by machining the inside of the socket smoother than needed. Having never had my hands on a Lie Nielsen chisel my theory is only speculation.

This image was taken over a decade ago:

483730

Many more have been added since then. Over at the top right there are two skew chisels. Both were made from 1/2" Witherby chisels. The shorter one has a damaged socket and the tenon on the handle is less than 3/4" and still holds on tenaciously. After perfecting the fit, the few that used to come loose have held on tight for the last few years.

Hopefully soon I will find some time to make some handles and demonstrate how to adjust the tenon for a solid fit.

jtk

[chuck van dyck]

I would suggest you look at them this way, the handles come from the factory needing just a bit of fitting, why assume they are a perfect fit, they're mass produced? A bit of sandpaper or rasp should close the gap in fitting the handle and you're set. I don't use mine often, I prefer other chisels, but I've not had issues with the handles coming loose with the change of seasons, properly fitted they will stay put.

I agree. If they had to spend the extra labor to make perfect fits they’d be even more expensive. You’re paying for good steel, the rest is wood, which is our realm.

[Tom Blank]

As Jim noted with an oxidized socket, remove the dark mark made on the high spot on the tenon and fit it again. With new chisels, give the socket a coat of magic marker and insert the handle straight in and pull straight out. LIGHTLY sand or file off the mark left on the high spot(s). Rinse and repeat, the high spot marks will increase in size with each fitting until the handle seats all the way around. Then you have a tight handle.

[Rob Luter]

I really like the chisels, but its 100% the handles falling off. I'm well invested in them at this point so the hairspray/sand paper is probably a good idea. But in hindsight, I'm not exactly sure I would buy socket chisels again for that reason.

Hmm? I've had a set for several years and my handles stay put. As others have said, hairspray or other mild adhesive should fix you up.

[chris carter]

Some folks will never have problems with their socket chisels. Others will have constant problems. Much of it has to do with the humidity changes in your shop. Where I live we have absolutely wild humidity swings. The summer is a swamp. The winter is very dry and with the heat running nonstop it can really shrink wood dramatically. I can easily visibly see the movement on my bench. I only have a few socket chisels – all older ones and one I re-handled. They are all for turning on my pole lathe, although the 2” wide bevel edge one gets occasional use at the bench. I’ve gotten in the habit of banging them on the bench when I take them out because I don’t want to have one bite the dust on the concrete floor – or worse – my foot. Hair spray does help, but it’s not bullet-proof. If I lived somewhere without such wild humidity swings, it probably wouldn’t be much of an issue.

[John Kananis]

I like that the handles come off my socket chisels. Easier to sharpen for one, you can fit a longer handle when needed, etc. I just make sure I tap my chisel on the bench before I use it - backwards with blade pointing up and handle impacting the bench. Holds it secure for as long as needed. As others have said, rough up the inside of the socket and make sure the handle fits properly.

[Jim Koepke]

Another thing is my handling of socket chisels is to be aware the handle may slip off. This avoids the unexpected.

As has been said before, "trust but verify."

jtk

[steven c newman]

have also found...that IF I would trim a little bit off the end of the handle's tenon.....then a couple whacks against the bench top...tightens most socket chisel handles right up.....sometimes, the handle will "bottom out" inside the socket....usually an 1/8" trim will do the job...

[Jack Frederick]

I have the LN chisels as well. SOP for me is to pick up the chisel and give the handle a rap on the bench. One of the things i like about the sockets is I have one of the long handles and there are times I prefer that long handle to the standard and it is simple to alternate.

[Tony Shea]

I have just about all the sizes of LN socket chisels as these are by far my favorite chisels I've used. The balance is so nice and the steel is just about perfect for easy re-sharpening but lasts long enough. I have had these chisels for over ten years at this point and still love them like I did when I got my first LN. I also live in Maine where humidity swings between summer and winter are very drastic and I never have issues with the handles falling off. If I want the handle off just a few wacks on my bench top and it pops right off. I really like this feature of socket chisels and prefer it over tang style. Most tang style chisels seem a bit off in the balance, other than Japanese chisels. I also love the feel of Japanese chisels but I just don't like the laborious task of sharpening them.

As Jim mentioned it is all about the fit of the handle into the socket. You should be able to mark up the inside of the socket with pencil lead and pound the handle in. You should see where the high spots on the handle are and knock those down. The other tip about removing a bit of the tip is also a good one. Your handles might be bottoming out before making a good fit. A tapered socket should give you a really secure fit that lasts for some time. Morse taper drill chucks NEVER fall out unless you want them to, this is not by accident.

When you install the handle in the socket, hold onto the chisel as tight as you can and wack the handle hard! Obviously only hard enough that you don't lose your grip of the chisel but the taper of the socket should enable you to get a really tight grip. That's how I insert my handles and I never have them fall off, and I mean never. My chisel rack supports the chisels by the metal socket and not the handle, this is very important to keep in mind! Like I said, I love my LN chisels and always pick those up over any other brand I own. I own 1 offs of Veritas (PMV-11), Blue Spruce, Two Cherries, multiple different Japanese chisels, Ashley Iles, and multiple different antiques.

[Jim Koepke]

Here is one thing to check when installing a handle on a socket chisel, lightly insert the tenon in to the socket. Then wiggle it back & forth every which way. There should be no looseness. If there is, that means your taper is not correct or the socket may be damaged.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Maybe just USE the chisel..
484089
Haven't had any issues with this one...

[Jim Koepke]

Haven't had any issues with this one...

Just the one?

Since taking a little time to fine tune the fit on my socket chisels there hasn't been a problem with any of them:

Not with the Buck Bros or the various makers of my short chisels:

484099

Though the three crank neck chisels have tang handles.

Not with my spare or special chisels or gouges:

484100

Two or three of these are tang handled chisels or gouges.

Looks like there is a socket without a handle, may need to make one when time allows and post on making it fit to stay.

Not in my box of chisels & gouges:

484098

There are a lot of gouges in with the chisels. All of these are socket chisels & gouges with a few tanged mortise chisels in the mix.

All of these are gouges with tangs except the one socket without a handle.

484101

The empty socket is most likely on a gouge. Another one to use for a demonstration on fitting a socket handle when time allows.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

I have the L-N chisels for years and all I would suggest, in addition to the above good advice, is to be careful with them if handling one that has not been used for awhile. I always try to pick them up by the socket, rather than the handle. This helps avoid the two separating and the blade heading to the floor. This is also a good reason to not work in sandals. This all reminds me that it is time to again follow the suggestions in the preceding posts. Thanks.

[Jim Koepke]

I have the L-N chisels for years and all I would suggest, in addition to the above good advice, is to be careful with them if handling one that has not been used for awhile. I always try to pick them up by the socket, rather than the handle. This helps avoid the two separating and the blade heading to the floor. This is also a good reason to not work in sandals. This all reminds me that it is time to again follow the suggestions in the preceding posts. Thanks.

Good advice Mike. We work with tools that can be very dangerous.

We should never work with our tools when we are not able to give our full attention to working safely.

In the Make a Joint Stool book there is one image of a blade being set or removed from a wood body plane. The caption says something to the effect of one only has to have a blade falling from the plane towards their foot once to teach them about always keeping the tool above the bench during this procedure.

So do your best to ensure a socket chisel handle is fit properly but always treat it as if you suspect the handle and chisel might separate.

jtk

[steven c newman]

A rack of user chisels...
484124

[steven c newman]

And...what got used, today...
484152
for 8 mortises...

[Luke Dupont]

I have the L-N chisels for years and all I would suggest, in addition to the above good advice, is to be careful with them if handling one that has not been used for awhile. I always try to pick them up by the socket, rather than the handle. This helps avoid the two separating and the blade heading to the floor. This is also a good reason to not work in sandals. This all reminds me that it is time to again follow the suggestions in the preceding posts. Thanks.


I also pick socket chisels up by the socket, for precisely that reason. A really good habit to get into.

If one does come at your toes, I don't think shoes will offer much protection against a razor sharp chisel falling from 3 feet up, though.

Another really good habit to get into was taught to me by my Filipino Martial Arts instructor. You see, we practice disarming bladed weapons. The two things I was taught very quickly were to:

1. When you or your opponent are disarmed / somebody loses hold of a weapon, promptly slip your lead foot out of the way of the falling weapon.
And,
2. Don't ever get in the habit of disarming your training partner, and then handing the weapon back to him. If you retain it, put it down on the floor and let him pick it up.

#1 has come in handy... I've saved my toes multiple times just by being aware that something is falling, and instinctively doing that footwork. It's a sort of awareness that you build, and then it happens automatically.

In regards to #2, well, you do what you train to do. There are more than a few stories of people defending themselves against a blade, and handing it back to their attacker without thinking... Are those stories true? No idea. Not keen to find out the hard way.