Is 5 hp really necessary?

[Dan Rider]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for several months, and finally decided to join. There's a wealth of good information here, and I hope to participate where I can.:o

I've been doing woodworking as an amateur/hobbyist for nearly twenty years, but in the last year or so, I've been getting serious about it. So now it's time to upgrade from my contractor saw to a cabinet saw. I've already decided on the General 350, and I was leaning towards the 3 hp version, but I can't help wondering if I'll regret not getting the 5 hp. I expect to be using this saw for another 20+ years.

If 3 hp is enough, why do PM, Delta and General all offer 5 hp in their 10" cabinet saws?:confused:

BTW, I already have 3 circuits of 240v/20a, and it would be no problem to add a 240v/30a. Electrical supply for either motor is not a problem.

[Jim Becker]

In most cases, a 3hp cabinet saw is more than sufficient. If you plan on ripping very thick material day-in, day-out, the higher horsepower will have more value and it will for general usage over time. To date, I have not found a need for more power with my 3hp Jet saw...and have never stalled it. Most cabinet saws are 3hp standard. The 5hp is offered, but you'll find a significantly lower percentage of those "on the street".

Welcome to the 'Creek, Dan!!

[Nate Rogers]

Dan,
First of all let me be the first to welcome you!! As for your question I guess it comes down to what you plan on doing with the saw. I debated this very subject a few months ago, I ended up going for the 5hp delta. All I can say is that you can get by with less power if you need to, but it is real nice not to have to worry about it. If you are going through all the trouble to buy a really nice saw spend the extra and get 5 hp you will never regret it.

Nate

[David Abel]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for several months, and finally decided to join. There's a wealth of good information here, and I hope to participate where I can.:o

I've been doing woodworking as an amateur/hobbyist for nearly twenty years, but in the last year or so, I've been getting serious about it. So now it's time to upgrade from my contractor saw to a cabinet saw. I've already decided on the General 350, and I was leaning towards the 3 hp version, but I can't help wondering if I'll regret not getting the 5 hp. I expect to be using this saw for another 20+ years.

If 3 hp is enough, why do PM, Delta and General all offer 5 hp in their 10" cabinet saws?:confused:

BTW, I already have 3 circuits of 240v/20a, and it would be no problem to add a 240v/30a. Electrical supply for either motor is not a problem.

3hp is plenty of power for even a serious hobbiest.

[Barry O'Mahony]

When I bought my Unisaw, the 5 HP was a small upcharge, so going for it was a no-brainer. Since I've never had a 3 HP cabinet saw, I can't comment on the difference.

Plowing wide dados is going to tax the saw more than anything else. I do 3/4" wide dados without the saw slowing down at all.

The downside? Even though the shop and house are on separate meters, the house lights blink when the motor starts up. Obviously the utility transformer is a bit undersize, but my power company says this is normal for 5 HP single phase motors.

[Dev Emch]

If you have a chance, get the 5 HP model. The 2 extra ponies really make a difference and if you dont get it now, your not going to drag yourself to upgrade later. Do it now and be done with it.

[Jim Becker]

The 2 extra ponies really make a difference...

I think you really need to qualify this, Dev. Make a difference with what? It's important!

[Dave Falkenstein]

To answer your question directly, no, 5HP is not needed in a hobbyist shop, IMHO. As a home shop woodworker, I went with the 3HP Jet and have never been concerned that I had too little power. I cannot recall ever hearing the motor even begin to strain. The contractor saw I had previously did strain on thick material rips. I think 5HP saws are intended for use in commercial shops where they are used all day every day in strenuous applications.

[Keith Outten]

You might need the extra 2hp if you are prone to using dull blades :)

3hp is more then enough IMO.

[Mark Rios]

May I ask here? Would this "3 hp being plenty argument" apply to bandsaws? Say the G0566 21" Bandsaw? Or would there be a need for the 5 hp for cutting logs into slabs for example?

Thanks.

[David Abel]

If you have a chance, get the 5 HP model. The 2 extra ponies really make a difference and if you dont get it now, your not going to drag yourself to upgrade later. Do it now and be done with it.

Please be specific exactly HOW a 5 HP model will improve your cutting experience over a 3 HP unit? Just WHAT are you cutting? I'm as picky as the next guy, and my 3HP never breathes hard going through anything that a 10" blade can cut.

I'm all ears now...

[David Abel]

To answer you question directly, no, 5HP is not needed in a hobbyist shop, IMHO. As a home shop woodworker, I went with the 3HP Jet and have never been concerned that I had too little power. I cannot recall ever hearing the motor even begin to strain. The contractor saw I had previously did strain on thick material rips. I think 5HP saws are intended for use in commercial shops where they are used all day every day in strenuous applications.

Exactly!

...

[Perry Holbrook]

I think it's interesting that your question included the word "necessary". The word means different things to different people, mainly whether you are a hobbist or pro.

Basically, if wood working is a hobby, necessary means do I want it and have I got the funds. That's what a hobby is. Kind of like, "is it necessary to buy a $40,000 boat to go bass fishing?"

If woodworking is your business, you evaluate your needs, determine the pay back for the need and make a business decision.

Just thought I'd throw that in.

As for me, I make my living in my shop and use a 20 year old 1 HP Craftsman contractor saw with the original fence. It's done everything I "need" so far.

Perry

[Mark Singer]

I never got it on my PM66 and I really never missed it! Plenty of power and I have cut some big hard stuff...Wenge, Jatoba ,Ipe, Maple...

[Jeff Singleton]

In the patternshop we had a 5 and a 7 1/2hp saws. Of course we were ripping 10/4 & 12/4 mahogany. I used 3 hp Unisaws for years with very little problems until it came time to rip. 8/4 oak, maple, cherry and walnut are hard on a 3 hp. I have a PM 66 5hp and have yet to bog it down. Just finished a pattern to extend the right table to 50" with cast iron. Casting will take about 8 weeks for the foundry to pour. Go with a 5 and never worry about bogging down again.

Jeff Singleton;)

[Andy London]

I personally do not think it is necessary and I have a General 350, 5 h.p. version currently in the shop, have used the 3 h.p. version and even ripping 2 1/4" Birdseye or exotics I haven't seen any difference, just keep your blade sharp. For 15 years I built ten's of thousands of dollars worth of cabinets and projects using a 2 h.p. contractors saw and even then I can count on one hand when the extra power would have been handy.

I think the extra power might be handy if you were cutting very deep dado's on a regular basis in very hard wood.

[Allen Bookout]

Is there any diffecence in electrical cost to run a 5 hp when a 3 hp would would be plenty for what you are going to use it for most of the time?

[Jim Becker]

Is there any diffecence in electrical cost to run a 5 hp when a 3 hp would would be plenty for what you are going to use it for most of the time?
I'm sure there is since the math would equate to more KwH, but it's likely not going to be noticable!

[lou sansone]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. If 3 hp is never needed why is it offered by the companies ?

2. How much extra is the 5 hp motor ?

3. This may be more difficult to determine, but is there any increase in the overall quality of the 5 hp motor as compared to the standard 3hp motor. In other words, is the 3 hp motor "standard duty" and the 5 hp " heavy duty" rated or are they both the same duty rating. You might want to consider those issues.

4. I have had a 3hp unisaw and as others have said it always seem to cut pretty well and I don't personally remember stalling it, but I always ran thin kerf blades.

5. I recently had a conversation with the cabinet shop next store to my day job and the owner really liked the 3hp saws because he felt they were safer than the more powerful 5+hp saws. He felt that you could actually stall the blade if need be as a safty feature ( kicking the stop button at the same time ) but you would never stall the 5 hp units.

lou

[lou sansone]

Is there any diffecence in electrical cost to run a 5 hp when a 3 hp would would be plenty for what you are going to use it for most of the time?

Not unless you are really drawing full current on the 5 hp motor, othewise watts = volts x amps
lou

[Charles McKinley]

Welcome Dan,

IMHO spend the extra money on good blades and keep them sharp. I have a 3 hp PM66 running a full kref blade and haven't noticed a need for a bigger motor.

[Dan Rider]

Thanks everyone for your quick responses.


I think it's interesting that your question included the word "necessary". The word means different things to different people, mainly whether you are a hobbist or pro.

Perhaps necessary was not the best word. I meant, "Am I likely to encounter a cutting situation where I'll have wished I had 5 hp driving the blade." I've had my 1.5 hp contractor saw for 14 years, and I've built some pretty decent projects with it, but it has also bogged down and even stalled :mad: a number of times on some tough cuts. (45 degree bevel rips in 2" stock, in my days before using thin-kerf blades)


3. This may be more difficult to determine, but is there any increase in the overall quality of the 5 hp motor as compared to the standard 3hp motor. In other words, is the 3 hp motor "standard duty" and the 5 hp " heavy duty" rated or are they both the same duty rating. You might want to consider those issues.

As far as I can tell, both motors are rated "continuous duty" with a service factor of 1.00.

In any case, everyone's comments have given me something to mull over.
Last week I had only discussed pricing with my local dealers on the 3hp saw. This week I'll throw a 5hp into the mix and see what I come up with. (IIRC, MSRP is usually about $300 Cdn difference between the two.)

[David Fried]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. If 3 hp is never needed why is it offered by the companies ?

lou

Why do auto manufacturers offer cars with 400 HP?

[Peter M. Spirito]

I've had a Grizzly G1023ZX 5hp for over a year now. the 3hp was $1050, the 5hp was $1150. Whats another hundred bucks to never have to say I'm sorry.:p

[Mark Carlson]

3hp is plenty. If your ripping 8/4 stock all day you might want to get the 5hp.

[Gary Herrmann]

I just upgraded to a cabinet saw. If I'd found a deal on a 5hp, I may have sprung for it. I didn't really pursue it too much tho. At most I'll but cutting what, 3.5"? I ripped 8/4 cherry on a benchtop Dewalt. It wasn't fun, but I did it.

My MM16 has 4.8 hp. I can resaw 16". Haven't yet, the thickest has been 5". No problem. I know the physics of the tools are different. I asked several pros, and none of them felt that a 5hp motor was necessary for a hobby shop or even a lot of pro shops for a TS.

I do like over-engineering. But, I guess I didn't think it was important enough to order a 5hp General 650.

Like most things, it probably boils down to personal preference.

If you look at tool specs, there is probably a rule of thumb for TS blades size vs hp. Like the 1hp per 4" of jointer width I've seen discussed.

[David Abel]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

1. If 3 hp is never needed why is it offered by the companies ?



lou

Profit margin. There's next to no NEED for a 5 HP motor for the majority of woodworkers. In a production capacity, the 5 HP would be prudent for continuous duty applications.

[Dev Emch]

I think you really need to qualify this, Dev. Make a difference with what? It's important!

I too had a 3 hp unisaw. In fact my first saw was Norm Abram Special with the chrome handles and the unifence and they even threw in a blade. It had a three horse power motor.

First I must say that I dont fully understand this but an oliver 232 will cut harder and faster than a unisaw. The optional motor was a 3 hp louis allis. Deep in my bones I have to question this rating. I personally think it was more. It would not be the first time. The northfield #3 was actually a #4 in which a 3 hp tag was attached to the motor. It wasn't until years later that Jeff M. told me about what his grandad had done. They needed to sell machines to the CA votech schools and they had a rule prohibiting 5 HP. No problem. Just retag the motor to 3 HP and change the model number from #4 to #3.

But when you need to muscle through 8/4 maple without burning and with minimal saw marks, your going to need the power. My old martin T-17 can slice through 8/4 maple faster than a mortal can shove it. Its like cutting 1/4 inch plywood on a unisaw. It cuts 12/4 oak like nobodys business. And unless your at the 2 inch thick or thicker mark, you dont even hear the slight drop in RPM loss. I can cut 1 inch pine with absolutely no discernable drop in RPM from idle to load to idle as fast as I can shove the lumber through it.

Burn marks happen for a reason. Horrid reference edge reasons aside, the next reason is feeds and speeds. Maple and cherry are among the worst. The faster and smoother you make the cut, the less sanding and final finishing. Often, I can make straight line glue rips on the martin. Its pointless to have to rejoint some of these cuts.

And I have found that 5 hp is really an ideal speed along with a 1 inch saw arbor. Just my two cents worth.

[Dev Emch]

In the patternshop we had a 5 and a 7 1/2hp saws. Of course we were ripping 10/4 & 12/4 mahogany. I used 3 hp Unisaws for years with very little problems until it came time to rip. 8/4 oak, maple, cherry and walnut are hard on a 3 hp. I have a PM 66 5hp and have yet to bog it down. Just finished a pattern to extend the right table to 50" with cast iron. Casting will take about 8 weeks for the foundry to pour. Go with a 5 and never worry about bogging down again.

Jeff Singleton;)

Amen Jeff!

When you get a chance, show us the pattern and the rough casting. We love the photos.:)

[Steve Stube]

I think this entire discussion would be more meaningful if you stated the amperage rating and duty cycle with the HP number. Just as in the Sears vacuum HP debate and Peak developed HP ratings grabble gook it is more important to determine if your 3 HP or 5 HP motors are in fact REAL 3 and 5 HP units or an advertising gimmick. If you have a 5 HP, 23 Amp @ 220 volt, continuous duty rated motor, then you probably have a REAL 5 HP motor. It can get even more complicated than this when you consider motor RPM, but I suspect (have seen) the mythical HP ratings creep into more than the vacuum and air compressor markets. Even the name brands we have come to trust (such as Leeson and Beldor) have joined in to produce motors to fit the bragging rights markets. These motors use to have an indication of slipping away from the "normal" HP rating curve with such verbiage as special duty (Spl. D.) on the name plate. Then there is the import market with 2 pole vs. 4 pole motors. I know this may make me unpopular with some but my intention is to help those making a decision to consider motor selection more carefully than a simple HP number.

[Brent Beelby]

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

5. I recently had a conversation with the cabinet shop next store to my day job and the owner really liked the 3hp saws because he felt they were safer than the more powerful 5+hp saws. He felt that you could actually stall the blade if need be as a safty feature ( kicking the stop button at the same time ) but you would never stall the 5 hp units.

lou

I wouldn't want to be standing behind a 5hp kickback. The special stalling feature on my 1hp tablesaw is the only feature I like on my saw.
Brent

[Dev Emch]

I wouldn't want to be standing behind a 5hp kickback. The special stalling feature on my 1hp tablesaw is the only feature I like on my saw.
Brent

What should I say? The old martin is pushing 6.6 horsepower and the oliver 88-DM is pushing a full bore louis allis 7.5 horse power! Not craftsman compressor horsepower but real fully rated ponies!

But the funny thing is that I had kickbacks with my old unisaw. I have never had a kickback with either the oliver or the martin. NEVER! The martin fence is so solid and so accurate that you never get any form of binding. Furthermore, you used to running the stock through with a chicken stick or other form of push stick. So this minimizes the opportunity for the blade to ride up which is what propels a kickback.

But of equal importance is this. With a low power blade and given the chance for the stock to ride up, the blade can engage the stock and hurl it backwards. The blade works more like a gear in a gear train than a saw cutting wood.

When the blade kerf is of a standard thickness and the blade is propelled by some serious horsepower, the blade is moving so hard and with such fortitude that it simply continues to cut. It never really gets the chance to dig in and transfer kinetic energy to the work item.

These factors combine to actually produce a much safer saw. Agree or disagree, I challenge you nay sayers to simply take the pepsi challenge.

[Brent Beelby]

But the funny thing is that I had kickbacks with my old unisaw. I have never had a kickback with either the oliver or the martin. NEVER! The martin fence is so solid and so accurate that you never get any form of binding. Furthermore, you used to running the stock through with a chicken stick or other form of push stick. So this minimizes the opportunity for the blade to ride up which is what propels a kickback.

But of equal importance is this. With a low power blade and given the chance for the stock to ride up, the blade can engage the stock and hurl it backwards. The blade works more like a gear in a gear train than a saw cutting wood.

When the blade kerf is of a standard thickness and the blade is propelled by some serious horsepower, the blade is moving so hard and with such fortitude that it simply continues to cut. It never really gets the chance to dig in and transfer kinetic energy to the work item.

These factors combine to actually produce a much safer saw. Agree or disagree, I challenge you nay sayers to simply take the pepsi challenge.

Darn Dev, Now there's nothing I like about my saw!!

[J.R. Rutter]

If you think you'll ever put a power feeder on it. Say to run a house full of trim, or whatever. Then go for the 5 HP. If you have the feeder ensuring positive forward motion, then you don't want to stall the TS.

I can agree with the posts on kickbacks and HP. You can actually stop a board binding on a 3 HP saw (barely). But it is annoying to have to slow down, or have the thermal overload kick in, on 8/4 rips.

Boils down to your usage. If you will be gentle on it - sharp blades, easy pace - then 3 HP is plenty. If you are trying to make $ with it, then 5 HP is the way to go...

[Steve Stube]

Brent,

Darn Dev, Now there's nothing I like about my saw!!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Repaint it a color you like!

[lou sansone]

Why do auto manufacturers offer cars with 400 HP?

Gee I thought it was because we all needed 400 hp:)


lou

[Mark Singer]

Gee I thought it was because we all needed 400 hp:)


lou

Now you hit on something important and useful!:eek:

[Steve Stube]

Why do auto manufacturers offer cars with 400 HP?

Gee, I thought it was to keep us distracted from clean air and fuel economy.

[Tyler Howell]

I've had a Grizzly G1023ZX 5hp for over a year now. the 3hp was $1050, the 5hp was $1150. Whats another hundred bucks to never have to say I'm sorry.:p

Same with my PM66. For years I've been under powered with Cman and borg purchases. Selecting the right TS was such and agonizing process for me, I spent the extra $100.00 and put 2 more horses in my stable. Never regreted the investment, never missed the C note. :D

[Mark Rios]

Why do auto manufacturers offer cars with 400 HP?

No, the 400 horses are there so that when we crash the car it will be totaled and then we buy another one.


:D

[tod evans]

dan, at the risk of sounding redundant, cast iron and horsepower....02 tod

[Dev Emch]

There was once an ad campaign that said... Ask the man who owns one...

Well kiddies, do you need 5 HP? Just ask the man who owns 5 HP. Ask him if he will ever go back to three?

Been lots of postings on this thread. NOT A SINGLE ONE has come forward and said, Oh man, I have 5 HP and now I regret it. If I had only opted for the three horse power unit. Next time when I buy a better saw, I am getting that three hp motor instead. You'll see.

Yah, right!

[Dave Falkenstein]

There was once an ad campaign that said... Ask the man who owns one...

Well kiddies, do you need 5 HP? Just ask the man who owns 5 HP. Ask him if he will ever go back to three?

Been lots of postings on this thread. NOT A SINGLE ONE has come forward and said, Oh man, I have 5 HP and now I regret it. If I had only opted for the three horse power unit. Next time when I buy a better saw, I am getting that three hp motor instead. You'll see.

Yah, right!

Kiddies????

[Frank Chaffee]

But of equal importance is this. With a low power blade and given the chance for the stock to ride up, the blade can engage the stock and hurl it backwards. The blade works more like a gear in a gear train than a saw cutting wood.
This may be very important and pertinent info.

Based on Dev’s observation, I have thrown away the keys to the four cylinder Mitsubishi and the Holley fed 400 is warming up now. Gonna shop for a hummer!
Frank

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

I have both a 3hp and a 5hp Unisaw. I would never purchase another 3hp...not that it does not have enough power for 99% of what I do, but because it does not have enough power for the other 1%.

Example, I frequently machine 3/4 Red oak with a combination ripping blade and a stacked daddo of 1/2" to use up fall down. With the 3hp saw I was having to feed much slower and therefore experienced some burning. On the 5hp, I can't bog the saw down!

Doug

[Barry O'Mahony]

But of equal importance is this. With a low power blade and given the chance for the stock to ride up, the blade can engage the stock and hurl it backwards. The blade works more like a gear in a gear train than a saw cutting wood.

When the blade kerf is of a standard thickness and the blade is propelled by some serious horsepower, the blade is moving so hard and with such fortitude that it simply continues to cut. It never really gets the chance to dig in and transfer kinetic energy to the work item.My anecdotal experience tends to support this. The hardest-to-use, most kickback-prone circular saw I have is a little 12V Makita handheld that I use for cutting plywood. First couple of times I used it was scarey. If you are not very careful, it will stall out and/or grab and throw itself backward quite violently. I feel better when using the big gas-powered Stihl than I do using this thing.

[Ed Bamba]

What should I say? The old martin is pushing 6.6 horsepower and the oliver 88-DM is pushing a full bore louis allis 7.5 horse power! Not craftsman compressor horsepower but real fully rated ponies!

But the funny thing is that I had kickbacks with my old unisaw. I have never had a kickback with either the oliver or the martin. NEVER! The martin fence is so solid and so accurate that you never get any form of binding. Furthermore, you used to running the stock through with a chicken stick or other form of push stick. So this minimizes the opportunity for the blade to ride up which is what propels a kickback.

But of equal importance is this. With a low power blade and given the chance for the stock to ride up, the blade can engage the stock and hurl it backwards. The blade works more like a gear in a gear train than a saw cutting wood.

When the blade kerf is of a standard thickness and the blade is propelled by some serious horsepower, the blade is moving so hard and with such fortitude that it simply continues to cut. It never really gets the chance to dig in and transfer kinetic energy to the work item.

These factors combine to actually produce a much safer saw. Agree or disagree, I challenge you nay sayers to simply take the pepsi challenge.

Dev, I was watching a novice ripping an eight foot 2x4 on a Northfield table saw at an Air Force base wood hobby shop. There wasn't a blade guard or a splitter on the saw, and it had a Biese fence on it (not that it matters). Luckily no one was standing behind him because the table saw shot the piece back about 10 feet. It put a pretty good dent in the chain link fence that secures a shop storage area. It was quite frightening since I was just passing behind the idot a few minutes prior. Needless to say, I stayed away from the moron, and the shop attendant had to stop the fool from continuing. I do belive that the saw had at least a 5HP motor in it.

Not discounting your point, nor will I ever doudt your expertise. Just wanted to let others know that I have seen a kickback occur on a 5HP saw. Other factors probably played a part in this scenario (i.e. dull blade, operator's inexperience, no anti kickback pawls, etc..)

Take care, Ed

[Phil Maddox]

Ever heard the phrase "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

Same thing applies to electric motors.

Too much is just enough!

BTW - I am about to order a Unisaw, it will have a 3hp motor.

[Dev Emch]

Ever heard the phrase "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

Same thing applies to electric motors.

Too much is just enough!

BTW - I am about to order a Unisaw, it will have a 3hp motor.

O.K. I am loosing it tonight. Is the last phrase a typo or are you arguing in favor of more power? Your first phase usually refers to someone shoehorning a 454 big block into a vega. So why order up a unic-sow with 3 ponies?

[Anthony Yakonick]

Ever heard the phrase "there's no substitute for cubic inches"?

Same thing applies to electric motors.

Too much is just enough!

BTW - I am about to order a Unisaw, it will have a 3hp motor.

There is no replacement for displacement!!