Shaper selection

[Mark e Kessler]

So I am looking at shapers for my big Interior shutter job, 78 - 42”x7”x1” raised panel both sides and 34 same dimensions movable louvers in Qsawn Red Oak which will be painted by others.

After this job it will have low use and I mostly only do furniture sized projects, I do plan on trying to get some short run biz from local woodworkers/contractors like i do for widebelt sanding.

Tilting Spindle
I have it set in my head that I need a tilting spindle for longterm versatility but to tell you the truth not really sure it’s necessary and it limits the inventory of used shapers, is tilting something worth holding out for?

Sliding table
The last shaper i had was an scmi with a slider but it’s been so long I can’t remember the pros and cons, the one con that i can think of is running pieces that bridge the slider and cast, do you just shim the cast or is it not an issue? I don’t plan on doing exterior doors, possibly interior. Also there is the question of aluminum slider over cast iron slide is one preferred over the other?

Fence
I also have it set in my head that I want a memory fence (pins) and mechanical readout on both fences, My scm definitely didn’t have this so I have no real world experience if it’s worth having but sure seems like it, opinions?

Shapers
Used - Have been looking at Scm’s t110 and t130, the t110s won’t have the memo fence and haven’t found any with sliders. I have found a 2003 t130 with power feed for 5k, fixed spindle no slider. I could add a bolt on slider from scm but that adds another 2k.

New - I don’t really want to spend all the money I am making on this job on a new shaper but i am not depending on it for income so i could.

If i wanted everything that i think i want then it is the SCM TW 55ES about 11-12k with Delivery in Nov/Dec, that’s pretty quick considering it’s a new machine but late for the client, I would have to get them to agree to a new date.

What about Cantek, I typically stick with Euro built machines but they have been pushed on me several times, they do look built well but… they are available in slider with fixed spindle, tilt spindle no slide and special order tilt,slide in a month or two. Kicker is the tilt, slide is actually more than the SCM.

I know you can get by without tilt/slide ect but kinda looking at long term one time buy, i am ok with being slightly inconvenienced like oh it takes a little longer to setup without the memo fence and readout but you won’t miss having it as opposed to it reduces time, test runs and frustration for example


Thanks for your thoughts, Mark

[Jeff Roltgen]

Tilting spindle:
On a relatively new Felder F900z, I've recently used for molding such as crown back angles. A 45 degree angled bit with tilt = angles that used to be almost impossible without buying/setting up another knife set. Also used for coopered doors. I'd say depends on if you think you'll be doing these things a few times a year, otherwise, somewhat of a luxury feature.

Sliding table:
I love this on the F900z. Wonderful for cope cuts on any door. Firm enough with my coping sled integrated with slider that no concerns exist regarding that few thousandths height variation. I will say, I do panel-raising on the non-slider, simply because of that slight height variation. I'm sure it would work, as well as I'm sure I'd be sanding out the shiner lines left by the edge of the slider as the panel is fed past the bit.

Fence:
F900z has the memory pins, my 2nd fiddle (Laguna 5hp) does not, and neither machine has readouts. Still haven't had the time to remedy this, but would dearly love DRO's to retrofit.

No experience with Cantek, but we're all fairly well aware now, you can change the label, paint, and a couple features and it's just another Laguna, Grizzly, Shop Fox, Powermatic, Jet, etc. ...
All I can say is, the Laguna came first, and I thought I had arrived as a true professional. A few years later, the Felder arrived, I took an advanced shaper joinery class with Joe Calhoun, and my shop was instantaneously transformed by the whole European paradigm. Now the Laguna is viewed as a bit of a bumpkin. In it's favor, I will say: If you have / need to use smaller spindle bits, the Laguna has the advantage, as it will run 1.25", .75", .50", and even router bits in 1/2 and 1/4" shank (though I've never wasted time with the router bits yet, but nice having the assurance that I could if needed).
Every time I use the Felder, I long for the day that a second machine of it's caliber finds it's way into the shop. The Taiwanese machine is looser, louder, rougher, and I'm inclined to limit RPMs to 5-6K, and expect I'd feel the same about it's cousins of the same class. Certainly serviceable, but once you've tasted the higher end, the price differential makes complete sense, if you have the budget/work lined up.

In conclusion: If door/window/shutter work is your aim, seems seeking a tilt/slide would make sense, especially if running a single machine, for utmost flexibility.
Naturally, two is better, and a fixed, non-slider is well suited to this subordinate role.

Good luck!

Jeff

[Michael Schuch]

I have a cheap Chinese sliding table shaper. It is great for cutting the end grain of rails on cabinet doors. Other than that I personally haven't found too much use for the sliding feature.

I had an opportunity to upgrade my sliding shaper to a tilting shaper at a great price... after a lot of reading and research I found the it was not worth it for me. I am just a hobbyist though, this is not a business for me.

[Patrick Kane]

My shaper is a saw/shaper, which means i have a long sliding table attached to the shaper. On a stand alone shaper, i would go bolt on tenon/sliding table like SCM and martin have, or no table at all. I assume 90%+ of what you will want the sliding table for is coping cuts on cabinet doors. This something easily done on a coping sled, homemade or purchased.

I havent worked with the $25,000+ machines, but i actually like using a relatively low tech approach to the shaper. I like zero clearance fences for most operations, and i often make jigs for different operations. I am a fairly low use guy, and its mostly profiles, cope/stick, and dadoes/rebates that i dont want to handle at the table saw. Given your projected use, you more than likely wont be spinning 300mm tenoning discs, so i dont know that you need to go overboard with build quality. Its hard to have too big or too nice of a machine, but I think $12k for your projected usage is crazy town. I definitely wouldnt spend $12k on a shaper, because its something i use 4-5 times a year.

I prefer used euro, but thats just me.

[Albert Lee]

I have a SCM TI145EP with side sliding table, good thing about these side sliding table is that its not in the way if you are profiling, it comes with memory fence/shaft/tilt, I bought it new. great machine, cost a lot of $$$ but well worth every cent everytime I need to change the cutter cos I've forgotten that one piece... there is no belt to change.

the shaper is heavy, it weighs 1100kg, or 2400lb.

Now, about your questions.
1. tilting
I dont think its necessary to have tilting function. depend on what you do. there are occasions where you will need it but its not very often and there are ways you can make things work.

2. sliding table
Ideally you want cast iron, aluminium is too soft, you wont bend it with wood but over time, I have more faith in cast iron, you need to bear in mind the cast iron will be certain height over the table of the shaper, the travel of your shaft is important, the more you have the more room for your cutter.

3. Fence
if you are busy and hate setup, buy the one with electronic fence. no frustration about that 1mm or 1/16 of an inch, no template needed.

4. Other bits and pieces.
I was in your shoes 2 years ago, I just needed a shaper, decided to go electronic cos I absolutely hate setting up the shaper. you can make your money back easily if you choose the right market.

Here are some pics of the shaper and a video that I did when I first got it, thought it will be handy for someone considering a SCM shaper. there is not a lot of information about them online.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j00aPTETMYQ



483398483399483400

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mark, I was just making some sash a couple of days ago, tilted the spindle a few degrees, made a clearance bevel for the sash to swing.

Earlier I used the tilting spindle to bevel the window sill.

I also used the sliding table with a tenon table and hood to make bridle joints for the sash. I use that feature often to cut tenons for furniture.

My fence doesn’t go back in the same position as it has No locating pins, it would be nice but not a deal breaker. I do have safety fingers, very useful.

I only have a readout for spindle elevation……..Regards, Rod

[Patrick Kane]

Mark, where in Vermont are you? This is an off the wall idea, but this machine is polish made, I think, and a very close copy of the Gomad design, which is a very close to the Martin t23. It’s hard to see it, but that shaper has the side mount beam and sliding table. Also has a feeder. It’s a very heavy vintage machine. You might not be looking for a project machine, but if you are close that is one of those tool brand that offer serious bang:buck. Even if you have the spindle rebuilt with new bearings, you still have thousands in the bank for tooling. It’s unfortunate, but you need $1000-1500 upfront to get a couple cutters.

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item/704761373927778/?ref=browse_tab&search_query=Shaper&tracking=%7B%22qid%22%3A%22-5906227092562112862%22%2C%22mf_story_key%22%3A%225 311200148968349%22%2C%22commerce_rank_obj%22%3A%22 %7B%5C%22target_id%5C%22%3A5311200148968349%2C%5C% 22target_type%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22primary_position%5 C%22%3A-1%2C%5C%22ranking_signature%5C%22%3A0%2C%5C%22comm erce_channel%5C%22%3A503%2C%5C%22value%5C%22%3A0%7 D%22%2C%22ftmd_400706%22%3A%22111112l%22%7D

[Mitch schiffer]

I have a powermatic ts29. It has a tilting spindle and sliding table. There was one on Facebook a while back. I can't remember where it was I considered buying it and setting up a trucking company to pick it up. They were only asking 3500 for it and I could use another. I do like it but they don't seem to come up used too often so you may have trouble finding one that is in your price range.

[Mark e Kessler]

Tilting spindle:
On a relatively new Felder F900z, I've recently used for molding such as crown back angles. A 45 degree angled bit with tilt = angles that used to be almost impossible without buying/setting up another knife set. Also used for coopered doors. I'd say depends on if you think you'll be doing these things a few times a year, otherwise, somewhat of a luxury feature.

Good luck!

Jeff

Jeff, thanks for the excellent summary. Sounds like i am still in the euro, tilting slider camp based on your comments, we will see as i read through the responses to see how much I flip flop 😂

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a cheap Chinese sliding table shaper. It is great for cutting the end grain of rails on cabinet doors. Other than that I personally haven't found too much use for the sliding feature.

I had an opportunity to upgrade my sliding shaper to a tilting shaper at a great price... after a lot of reading and research I found the it was not worth it for me. I am just a hobbyist though, this is not a business for me.

That’s what I am afraid of, will use the slider for this one job then never really need it later on, same with the tilt.

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a SCM TI145EP with side sliding table, good thing about these side sliding table is that its not in the way if you are profiling, it comes with memory fence/shaft/tilt, I bought it new. great machine, cost a lot of $$$ but well worth every cent everytime I need to change the cutter cos I've forgotten that one piece... there is no belt to change.

483398483399483400

Albert, that is an awesome machine definitely can’t go that level. I do appreciate your comments and they are i line with my thinking so far

[Mark e Kessler]

Hi Mark, I was just making some sash a couple of days ago, tilted the spindle a few degrees, made a clearance bevel for the sash to swing.

Earlier I used the tilting spindle to bevel the window sill.

I also used the sliding table with a tenon table and hood to make bridle joints for the sash. I use that feature often to cut tenons for furniture.

My fence doesn’t go back in the same position as it has No locating pins, it would be nice but not a deal breaker. I do have safety fingers, very useful.

I only have a readout for spindle elevation……..Regards, Rod


Thanks Rod, looks like the tilt is a feature used quite a bit in your case and really useful. ahh for got about the safety fingers that’s something else i would be looking for.

One of the things I am trying to figure out is which feature is not a deal breaker, tilt, memory fence or mechanical readout on fence and spindle height. I am kinda in Alberts camp when it comes to quick setups, i already work 40-50 a week in another job so my time in the shop can be limited. I have found that ever since i sold my old equipment and bought a new J/P, saw with full DRO my work is more precise , efficient and the final product comes together much better in the end.

[Mark e Kessler]

Mark, where in Vermont are you? This is an off the wall idea, but this machine is polish made, I think, and a very close copy of the Gomad design, which is a very close to the Martin t23. It’s hard to see it, but that shaper has the side mount beam and sliding table. Also has a feeder. It’s a very heavy vintage machine. You might not be looking for a project machine, but if you are close that is one of those tool brand that offer serious bang:buck. Even if you have the spindle rebuilt with new bearings, you still have thousands in the bank for tooling. It’s unfortunate, but you need $1000-1500 upfront to get a couple cutters.


Patrick, I am about 1/2 hr North of MontyP. I saw that and contacted them, I also chatted with Joe Calhoun on IG about it. The machine is actually in NH about 1hr 20 South. They said it was running a year ago and all the parts are there, I was surprised to find that it is only 5hp seems a bit under powered.

I am curious and should probably go look at it but with the side table it’s big, Joe told me the Martin table folds down but I don’t think this one does, I don’t think i have the space for this one. I am ok with a cleanup/tuneup few things here and there but a full rebuild isn’t in the cards, I would be mostly concerned with the bearings, I have read where the right type of bearings for a machine like this can be hard to find and can cost thousands, hopefully someone with knowledge on this shaper will chime in and dispel these myths.

I do agree (somewhat) that spending 12k is crazy town but if i want a pinned fence with mechanical readout and tilting spindle I will more than likely need to buy new as used is non existent, if I hold out long enough one would probably popup but who knows when and I need to get the job done by the end of the year.

The 2003 scmi t130 is tempting at 5k, its got a memo fence, mechanical readouts a power feeder and a couple of drawers of tooling but no tilt or slide. I could buy the scm bolt on for 2k or even build one for around 1k but Rod made a very strong use case for the tilting spindle which has me flip flopping as predicted ����

[Albert Lee]

Thanks Rod, looks like the tilt is a feature used quite a bit in your case and really useful. ahh for got about the safety fingers that’s something else i would be looking for.

One of the things I am trying to figure out is which feature is not a deal breaker, tilt, memory fence or mechanical readout on fence and spindle height. I am kinda in Alberts camp when it comes to quick setups, i already work 40-50 a week in another job so my time in the shop can be limited. I have found that ever since i sold my old equipment and bought a new J/P, saw with full DRO my work is more precise , efficient and the final product comes together much better in the end.

Mark, I was in a rush earlier and I didnt realise you were the OP! I have a daytime job too, I want to enjoy the time using the machine, setting up machine isnt really using the machine, I paid good money for the machine, I want the machine to serve me, not me serving the machine most of the time! hence I went full electronic - actually not full. L'Invincibile (probably Martin too) has sensors that sense the cutter head you have and change everything automatically, including the feeder height!

Are you still happy with Felder? have you had a look at Profil 45? I dont think I can ever go back to manual spindle moulder, its like a tv with a remote...

I must say, the elecronic side of thing made me enjoyed every moment of using the shaper. I used to hate using the shaper cos my old shaper didnt even have memory pin, everytime I change the cutter its another 30 minute job setting it up close to what I want but not perfect. having the ability to push a button, knowing the computer will set it to the closest 0.1mm/0.004 inch made life so much easier. yes the initial cost is there, but I am sure you will quickly recover the cost.

[Rod Sheridan]

Yes Mark, time can be very valuable so rapid reset to parameters you keep track of can be very useful.

Regards, Rod

[ChrisA Edwards]

For hobby use, I decided on the Hammer F3, 1/25" spindle, sliding table and tilting spindle, forward and backward(reversible) motor, pretty much the same setup and Rod, but I think Rod's is in a combo unit.

I used it for my Plantation shutters and was very pleased with how it performed. I did use the tilt feature to put a tiny 45 degree chamber on the rails. This required me to run in reverse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6cJ-qv_DU

[ChrisA Edwards]

Cutting the chamfer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1IWP995kEQ

[Patrick Kane]

Patrick, I am about 1/2 hr North of MontyP. I saw that and contacted them, I also chatted with Joe Calhoun on IG about it. The machine is actually in NH about 1hr 20 South. They said it was running a year ago and all the parts are there, I was surprised to find that it is only 5hp seems a bit under powered.

I am curious and should probably go look at it but with the side table it’s big, Joe told me the Martin table folds down but I don’t think this one does, I don’t think i have the space for this one. I am ok with a cleanup/tuneup few things here and there but a full rebuild isn’t in the cards, I would be mostly concerned with the bearings, I have read where the right type of bearings for a machine like this can be hard to find and can cost thousands, hopefully someone with knowledge on this shaper will chime in and dispel these myths.


5Hp sounds like the owner is probably incorrect. After I posted that, i went back and researched a bit. Gomad/Unitronics are the same brand. I think there was another manufacturer in western poland that sold that DFDA-4 shaper too. Darcy Warner, and others with credibility, had good things to say about them. Apparently 3,000+/- lbs, which is no joke for a shaper. Honestly, its hard to imagine it actually weighs 3,000lbs. The old Martin T75 i had was 2500-2600lbs, and that was a full 8' slider. This sliding table is very close to the Martin t23, which is identical to the Martin t17 sliding table. I had the t17, and this rod looks very similar. It is crude, but the table pivots up and this rod goes into a little indent to keep it into position. It is threaded so you can adjust the angle of the sliding table. I circled it in red on the Gomad shaper, and it appears to be very very similar to the Martin. I cant confirm it folds out of the way, but it looks like it does. If it does not fold out of the way, then you can remove the bumper/stop on the beam and slide the whole carriage and table off the beam. This is almost a two person job, but that martin carriage and table were probably 100-120lbs. I remember it was almost more than i could handle while delicately fitting it onto the beam. If it doesnt fold out of the way, then you can just remove it.

I hear you, the spindle would almost have to be baked into the machine purchase. Its from the 70s or possible the 80s. Its almost assumed that it is time for TLC or a rebuild. From what ive read, i think you are right. You are in for $1000+. I dont know about 'thousands', but anything is possibly. Thankfully, the name on the front of the machine isnt 'Martin'. I remember a thread with Patrick Walsh on his t23 rebuild, he looked at swapping the oil bath bearings for sealed bearings from martin and it was silly money. It might have been $3,000 for the bearing.

[Steve Jenkins]

I have a Gomad tilting spindle with sliding table similar to the pic in the previous post. If you look at the pic you can see a handle just above and right of the red circle. Pushing down on it will raise the sliding table above the main table and you can push it over so it’s only a couple inches from the spindle for coping.
Mine is 9hp

[Phillip Mitchell]

The DFFA-4 is likely more than 5 hp, though it’s the beefy “undercarriage” that matters more than actual HP of motor. I have see DFFA-4 listed at 9hp and I have seen a DFFA-5 (bigger brother) listed at 7.5 hp, so who knows. If that were closer to me I would be taking a drive over to see it in person and bringing my bargaining pants personally, but only with the expectation that it’s a project and may need the purchase price eventually doubled to get it all straight. Assuming the fence is in there somewhere??

Gomad/Unitronix/Polamco are, by most accounts of those who have actually used them, very highly regarded in terms of quality. Absolute tanks. I was very close to getting the titling DFFA-5 that was on IRS a few months back but the price just went too high and it was too far away...

The fact remains, though that these machines are sort of dinosaurs in relation to what Mark is saying he wants in a shaper, ie: factory DRO, fence memory, etc.

If I were you I would keep an eye out for a post ~2003 era tilting SCM T110 or similar with the electronics on it that you want and go to town for around $5k hopefully. You can use coping sleds or add the factory bolt on tenon table at some point and have a very capable machine for way less than ~$12k but really comes down to what you want to spend.

I don’t see many T130s at all that tilt for some reason. More T110s that tilt but still an overwhelmingly low % overall that have tilting spindle.

I am also looking for a similar machine casually but will likely go older/more dinosaur due to budget.

Edit: There is a barely used Martin T27 Flex listed regionally here for a mere $52k if all that fails and you win the lotto. Looks like a nice piece of machinery.

[Mike Wilkins]

Thanks Chris for the YouTube video on making tenons on the F3. I have one on order hopefully arriving in August (ordered in Feb.) for my hobby shop. There are some doors and cabinets waiting to be built. I just need some lottery money for cutters.

[Mark e Kessler]

5Hp sounds like the owner is probably incorrect. After I posted that, i went back and researched a bit. Gomad/Unitronics are the same brand. I think there was another manufacturer in western poland that sold that DFDA-4 shaper too. Darcy Warner, and others with credibility, had good things to say about them. Apparently 3,000+/- lbs, which is no joke for a shaper. Honestly, its


The motor is 5hp, at least thats what the plate says in the pic they sent. I have asked for more info. Guess I am not sure how to go about checking the machine, i wont be able to run it and i could check the runout but unless the runout is unacceptable (what’s acceptable? 0.001”?) or the spindle sound crunchy how else do i know? Also if the bearings do need replacement in general how is that done, is it a fairly straight forward thing, is there a press involved…where do you even get bearings for that, i hate to buy it to find that you can’t get them because it’s an odd size…

[Mark e Kessler]

I have a Gomad tilting spindle with sliding table similar to the pic in the previous post. If you look at the pic you can see a handle just above and right of the red circle. Pushing down on it will raise the sliding table above the main table and you can push it over so it’s only a couple inches from the spindle for coping.
Mine is 9hp

Do you like the shaper, how does it perform. Would love to see some pics if you get a chance.

[Mark e Kessler]

The DFFA-4 is likely more than 5 hp, though it’s the beefy “undercarriage” that matters more than actual HP of motor. I have see DFFA-4 listed at 9hp and I have seen a DFFA-5 (bigger brother) listed at 7.5 hp, so who knows. If that were closer to me I would be taking a drive over to see it in person and bringing my bargaining pants personally, but only with the expectation that it’s a project and may need the purchase price eventually doubled to get it all straight. Assuming the fence is in there somewhere??

Gomad/Unitronix/Polamco are, by most accounts of those who have actually used them, very highly regarded in terms of quality. Absolute tanks. I was very close to getting the titling DFFA-5 that was on IRS a few months back but the price just went too high and it was too far away...

The fact remains, though that these machines are sort of dinosaurs in relation to what Mark is saying he wants in a shaper, ie: factory DRO, fence memory, etc.

If I were you I would keep an eye out for a post ~2003 era tilting SCM T110 or similar with the electronics on it that you want and go to town for around $5k hopefully. You can use coping sleds or add the factory bolt on tenon table at some point and have a very capable machine for way less than ~$12k but really comes down to what you want to spend.

I don’t see many T130s at all that tilt for some reason. More T110s that tilt but still an overwhelmingly low % overall that have tilting spindle.

I am also looking for a similar machine casually but will likely go older/more dinosaur due to budget.

Edit: There is a barely used Martin T27 Flex listed regionally here for a mere $52k if all that fails and you win the lotto. Looks like a nice piece of machinery.


it is 5hp, they sent me a pic of the plate. The fence is there and would assume its not pinned. I wouldn’t really have an issue putting a few thousand into this machine knowing that i would end up with something of this build, certainly couldn’t afford a shaper with a side table, i think its an 10k+ option on an scm.

Seems like the worst that could be wrong is the bearings and if that needs to be done wondering how long to get it all sorted and up and running, 1 month, 2? Obviously depends on how much time i have available but the other is are the bearings available and what does it take to actually replace them

[Mark e Kessler]

For hobby use, I decided on the Hammer F3, 1/25" spindle, sliding table and tilting spindle, forward and backward(reversible) motor, pretty much the same setup and Rod, but I think Rod's is in a combo unit.

I used it for my Plantation shutters and was very pleased with how it performed. I did use the tilt feature to put a tiny 45 degree chamber on the rails. This required me to run in reverse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6cJ-qv_DU


thanks for the Videos Chris, a Hammer shaper popped up the other day for like 5k, I thought about it for a few hours when i went back to look at the post it was gone!

[Kevin Jenness]

That Gomad shaper is in a totally different class than Hammer. Given the price and location there's no reason not to check it out or to think that it needs bearings just because of its age. I think Stark Mtn in New Haven still runs one and they could tell you about it. My neighbor has a 24" Unitronex planer from the 80's which is a very capable heavy duty design. The shaper won't have any bells or whistles but you could add them if needed.

It is a big machine for a small shop. If you only need it for the one project why not sub out the tenoning? If you have the room and will use it the Gomad could be a good solid shaper.

I would say .001" runout is acceptable but no more. If you can't run it make a lowball offer, it looks like they want it gone.

There's a clean looking T110 with 3 spindles on Woodweb for a decent price in PA. That is a nice size solid basic shaper for a small shop. Moderate scale tenoning can be done effectively with a sled on a basic machine.

[Patrick Kane]

Phillip and i have a very similar approach to used tools. I actually saw that shaper weeks ago, because i have a problem with searching the entire country for used tools even though i have no business buying or storing them right now. Its how i ended up with two Martin table saws that i then had to sell later. I should probably keep my mouth shut, but those Gomad shapers are kind of a well kept secret from what ive read over the years. Most guys would look at them and say, 'wtf is this brand? It must suck', but i think more people are starting to catch on a bit. To Philip's point, i saw an IRS auction within the year with a Gomad shaper sell for $3,000-4,000 with the sliding table. Thats a pretty steep price for a 30-40 year old machine. Back to my point i wanted to make, i agree with Phillip on negotiating. I would call that guy back and offer him $1500 to come get it this weekend. Id then sell what appears to be a Festo feeder for $500-600(they are kinda collectable), and then proceed to sort the rest out back at my shop. I just typed this out on FOG--when i really should be working--but with used tools you have to assume something is wrong, bake it into the price, and then go for it. Every used tool purchase i bet that the machine is in great working condition, but i always hedge the price on worst case scenario. Do you due diligence, of course, but you cant GUARANTEE the machine is 100% plug and play beforehand. In this case, the worst case scenario is the seller is a pathological liar, the machine doesnt run, and you have to replace a starter, motor, and rebuild the spindle. In that case, you could probably sell the machine for parts(there was a dude on SMC in 2018 that wanted that sliding table for a Gomad) to break even, or spend the $3,000 for a new starter, motor, and spindle rebuild. If its truly shot, i would probably part it out and recoup as much of my $1500 as possible. More than likely, the machine runs fine and you can use it just fine on day 1. If you want to use it for the next 10,20, 30 years, then you should probably replace the motor bearing($50-100), the bearings in the sliding carriage(just did this on a T17 sliding table for $120), and have the spindle redone(i would sub this out to a professional). This is just what i would do, and i dont want to sway you one way or the other. This could be a disaster, and i dont know how comfortable you are betting $1500+. If that is money you need next week for groceries, then be patient and wait for a less risky machine to come along. Also, its a beastly machine, which is great, but that might not be the best fit for you. Like i said in my first post in this thread, if you wont use a shaper all day every day, and you really only want it for cope/stick cuts, then you dont need a 40"x40" 3,000lb block in your shop.

[Warren Lake]

Up here in Ontario ive seen one Gomad in over 40 years of auctions, over 100. Saw one Felder and no Martins. Most by far SCM but other Italians as well. Its worth noting in SCM that you can put a model number on it but you will find different details in the same models. I would not buy a 110.

The smallest tops ive ever seen were on 110's but then they came with different top sizes. I have a 120 that has a larger top than the 130. The 120 has larger ring inserts and a french spindle. The 130 has a mitre slot. The 120 only has four speeds instead of five and I want five speeds as it covers a wider range of cutters. Only ever seen one Tilting up here and it was an old 160. I mentioned it to one very large shop guy that had many shapers but no tilt and he said they just make a jig and tilt is not needed. The 160 was an excellent shaper top shop with maintenance records on a clip board at the side of the machine. Height under the nut was huge, not sure but double most. I spun the spindle and there was not resistance and it felt like silk. 9 hour auction and one guy that had driven six hours and wanted that and two other machines. He was not going to stop, that happens sometimes. It wasnt a battle id win.

[Phillip Mitchell]

That Gomad shaper is in a totally different class than Hammer. Given the price and location there's no reason not to check it out or to think that it needs bearings just because of its age. I think Stark Mtn in New Haven still runs one and they could tell you about it. My neighbor has a 24" Unitronex planer from the 80's which is a very capable heavy duty design. The shaper won't have any bells or whistles but you could add them if needed.

It is a big machine for a small shop. If you only need it for the one project why not sub out the tenoning? If you have the room and will use it the Gomad could be a good solid shaper.

I would say .001" runout is acceptable but no more. If you can't run it make a lowball offer, it looks like they want it gone.

There's a clean looking T110 with 3 spindles on Woodweb for a decent price in PA. That is a nice size solid basic shaper for a small shop. Moderate scale tenoning can be done effectively with a sled on a basic machine.

I would agree that it’s likely the Gomad seller would take a low offer based on the looks of the situation, but who knows. It may just need some of the crusty bits cleaned up and it’s ready to play. Or it may need various levels of repair. Really hard to say without a thorough combing over in person and even then it can be hard to really know until you have it possession and start to go through everything at your own pace.

The T110 with 3 spindles is actually sold and the listing hasn’t been removed. I inquired about it weeks ago because it looks like a tilt and has the extra spindles and feeder for a fair price, but already sold...

I think I have sorted out the Gomad nomenclature (maybe?) that the “4” model is the not tilting version and the “5” model is the tilting spindle version with various options for motor sizes in each model and the option for the end tenoning table on either machine. It seems like they both weigh a shitton...2k # plus and have large tops (40x40) with even more protruding out the back so maybe not the best choice for a space compromised situation.

The tilting DFFA-5 from IRS auctions a few months back was 7.5 hp and had no tenoning table but I could see the plate and mounting locations on the outfeed side of the machine like it had one at point or they all just come with the option to attach a sliding end tenoning carriage / table.

[Mike Kees]

A Delta/Invicta RS 15 is another machine to watch for. really good solid machine ,mine is 7.5 hp three phase. I have two shapers ,my other one is a Minimax T50 with sliding table and tilt spindle. It is a 5 hp machine. These two are a good pair as they cover most of the bases for me. And yes the tilt and sliding table are used a fair bit.

[Warren Lake]

yes 4 is non tilt

[Mel Fulks]

A Delta/Invicta RS 15 is another machine to watch for. really good solid machine ,mine is 7.5 hp three phase. I have two shapers ,my other one is a Minimax T50 with sliding table and tilt spindle. It is a 5 hp machine. These two are a good pair as they cover most of the bases for me. And yes the tilt and sliding table are used a fair bit.

I used an Invicta for several years in an employment and liked it.

[Patrick Kane]

This poor guy selling the Gomad, we are all screaming "scalp him!". Lets hope he isnt a SMC member...

That listing has the hallmarks of a high risk/high reward. Offbrand maker, disheveled photos, and poor description. Finally, and most importantly, you dont NEED the gomad. The harder negotiations are when you really really want the machine.

Reminds me of my jointer buy a few years ago. Here are the images i had alongside a seller description of "16" joiner". I mailed the guy a personal check for the price of a new grizzly 8" jointer, and waited for a uship guy without front teeth to deliver it. Ended up being a 20" machine with a tersa head(which is what i gambled on). It very well could have gone the other way and showed up with frozen bearings, no motor, or worse, not shown up at all! Atleast its close enough you can go and look at it. I prefer to negotiate before i drive 3 hours round trip, but atleast you can always back out if its a disaster upon first glance.

[Mike Kees]

Mark ,Cantek is a whole' nother' animal from Grizzly, Powermatic,etc . They are a way heavier build, I have seen other shapers from Taiwan with the "511", 512 model number under different names that are the same machine. I would not hesitate to have one of these in my shop.

[Jared Sankovich]

The 511/512/513 imports are decent and a lot different than the grizzly machines. I have a 511 and it's been great for what it is.

Hardwood artisans (who are local to me) are running a couple dfda-4 shapers in their production shop. I asked how they liked them when I was there looking at a Maka and the shop manager said they had been great.

As for the invictas they are well built. The ti-14d would be the tilting/sliding version. My only complaint is the quill travel could be more. It's only about 5.25" and you can't raise the spindle base above the table.

[brent stanley]

I personally would always go for capacity and capabilities over creature comfort type features like CNC controlled fences if I had to choose. Granted I do this every day, often many times a day, but setting fences and spindle height on a well made, accurate machine can be very fast. I have a friend with a new Martin T27 and a guy with a Panhans that have CNC fences and apparently you can't count on either of them to always give you perfect results every time. So if you're doing fine work you're still going to need to do some test cuts and maybe tweak. Don't get me wrong, on balance I'm sure theyre very handy, but in the opinion of a couple of pros who are daily users to make a living, they're not infallible magic.

[Mark e Kessler]

That Gomad shaper is in a totally different class than Hammer. Given the price and location there's no reason not to check it out or to think that it needs bearings just because of its age. I think Stark Mtn in New Haven still runs one and they couThere's a clean looking T110 with 3

Yea, that Gomad is in a different class than the Hammer for sure. The Gomad is really too big with the side table for my current shop but i could make it work. I am looking at subbing out some of the work but plan on doing most of it because the money will pay for the shaper, tooling ect plus pay off a car and then some, the time/duration isn’t as important plus I am doing it for a friend.

That t110 sold, guess he never deleted the listing.

[Mark e Kessler]

Phillip and i have a very similar approach to used tools. I actually saw that shaper weeks ago, because i have a problem with searching the entire country for used tools even though i have no business buying or storing them right now. Its how i ended up with two Martin table saws that i then had to sell later. I should probably keep my mouth shut, but those Gomad shapers are kind

Honestly I think the Gomad is just to big for my shop and after this job I don’t plan to do much end work, of course i never planned on doing 115 shutters either. I would have no problem sinking 5k into something that is way beyond what I would be able to buy new

[Mark e Kessler]

A Delta/Invicta RS 15 is another machine to watch for. really good solid machine ,mine is 7.5 hp three phase. I have two shapers ,my other one is a Minimax T50 with sliding table and tilt spindle. It is a 5 hp machine. These two are a good pair as they cover most of the bases for me. And yes the tilt and sliding table are used a fair bit.


I have seen A few of the invictas for around $2500, the t50 is another that i would check out

[Mark e Kessler]

This poor guy selling the Gomad, we are all screaming "scalp him!". Lets hope he isnt a SMC member...

That listing has the hallmarks of a high risk/high reward. Offbrand maker, disheveled photos, and poor description. Finally, and most importantly, you dont NEED the gomad. The harder negotiations are when you really really want the machine.

Reminds me of my jointer buy a few years ago. Here are the images i had alongside a seller description of "16" joiner". I mailed the guy a personal check for the price of a new grizzly 8" jointer, and waited for a uship guy without front teeth to deliver it. Ended up being a 20" machine with a tersa head(which is what i gambled on). It very well could have gone the other way and showed up with frozen bearings, no motor, or worse, not shown up at all! Atleast its close enough you can go and look at it. I prefer to negotiate before i drive 3 hours round trip, but atleast you can always back out if its a disaster upon first glance.


yea, I definitely don’t need that Gomad. It’s also a little sketchy that its listed in Montpelier and NH, one by a Woman and the other by a man, the woman says she is friends with the other, i was thinking maybe a divorce deal, he originally had it listed for more

[Mark e Kessler]

I personally would always go for capacity and capabilities over creature comfort type features like CNC controlled fences if I had to choose. Granted I do this every day, often many times a day, but setting fences and spindle height on a well made, accurate machine can be very fast. I have a friend with a new Martin T27 and a guy with a Panhans that have CNC fences and apparently you can't count on either of them to always give you perfect results every time. So if you're doing fine work you're still going to need to do some test cuts and maybe tweak. Don't get me wrong, on balance I'm sure theyre very handy, but in the opinion of a couple of pros who are daily users to make a living, they're not infallible magic.


i for sure don’t want a CNC fence for one it’s why out of my league second i do like a little bit of fiddling but some precision with repeatability so i would like a pinned fence and mech readout

[Jared Sankovich]

I have seen A few of the invictas for around $2500, the t50 is another that i would check out


The RS15s used to be relatively inexpensive. If you are considering one and forgoing the tilt/slider and pined fence there are a lot of other euro shapers in that weight/performance class beyond scmi Martin or invicta.

[Joe Calhoon]

I personally would always go for capacity and capabilities over creature comfort type features like CNC controlled fences if I had to choose. Granted I do this every day, often many times a day, but setting fences and spindle height on a well made, accurate machine can be very fast. I have a friend with a new Martin T27 and a guy with a Panhans that have CNC fences and apparently you can't count on either of them to always give you perfect results every time. So if you're doing fine work you're still going to need to do some test cuts and maybe tweak. Don't get me wrong, on balance I'm sure they're very handy, but in the opinion of a couple of pros who are daily users to make a living, they're not infallible magic.

Brent,
That has not been my experience at all with the T27 and T12. Those fences are accurate to 1\100 of a MM and if everything calibrated right should be very dependable. I Have set up a few T27s, even one in a Chinese shop and we use a T 12 in the Alpine workshops. They are always dead on with no test cuts needed. There are a few things that need to be set up on these to get good results. Please send your friends contact info and I will get in touch with him to see what is going on.

In my own works I use 3 different shapers on a daily basis. My T26 Martin that I bought new 20 years ago with automatic fence and shaft height has been accurate to 1/10mm in both axis. The only time I need to tweak it a bit ( usually 0.1 or 0.2 mm is when doing door and window sticking cuts using the split fence removing 1 mm from the edge. About a year ago the fence started going out of calibration. I replaced the encoder and all is good now. I think it was $400 but that shaper doesn’t owe me anything. This shaper is also easy to set up for first time cuts because you can bump it in 1/10th mm increments.
483564

my second most used shaper is the Hofmann. It has a solid cast fence with mechanical digital readout. I really like this fence., it is totally coplaner and has a nice fine adjust. That is very important on a manual machine. This one has a digital readout for shaft height that is not totally accurate. It’s a 20 year old machine and either need to replace the encoder or it might be dirty. The mechanical digital fence readout is accurate to about 0.2 mm. Almost as good as the T26 but no worries about electronics. It’s a solid cast machine with no vibration. This one and the T26 work well with euro tooling that comes with drawings and cutter diameters on the cutters.
483559
483560
My third shaper is the 40 year old Martin T23 that I restored. It is total manual but has some features that most shapers of this era did not have. The height is adjustable in 1/10th mm increments via marks on the hand wheel and the fence has really good fine adjust for either the whole fence or each fence half independently. Pretty quick to dial a cutter in especially if using some setting aids. This one though gets used mostly for tenoning and end cuts. I have a shop made digital gauge for tenon depth. The other shapers have a massive footprint and needed for what I do but the T 23 is pretty compact and weighs in as about 2000 lbs. I had a few SCM and other pre 1990 Italian shapers. They are not bad machines and pretty solid. None had fine adjust on the fences. I set up some new Griggio shapers in a shop and they were not too bad. I’m sure the newer SCM good also. If I ever downsize from semiretirement to total hobby work I could get along just fine with the old T23.
483561
483562

[brent stanley]

Thanks Joe! I'll reach out, though I believe he's already worked with Martin to get within their specs. If the machine were stolen tomorrow, he would buy the same again without hesitation so no question it's an exceptionally helpful feature. Are you going to WinDoor this year? I'll introduce you.

[Mark e Kessler]

What about SAC, I know nothing about them. There is a 2002 T145, cast iron slider, tilt 9hp on ebay for 8k, seems a bit high. Also with forward (towards operator) spindle, that seams awkward as far as usability compared to tilting away.

[Albert Lee]

What about SAC, I know nothing about them. There is a 2002 T145, cast iron slider, tilt 9hp on ebay for 8k, seems a bit high. Also with forward (towards operator) spindle, that seams awkward as far as usability compared to tilting away.

SAC went bankrupt almost 10 years ago. not sure about parts.

$8k seems high? if it can tilt both ways then I dont mind the forward spindle. if only one way then its forward... not really user friendly.

I am sure you can find a SCM shaper with cast iron slider that tilts away for near 10k or less?

[Jared Sankovich]

What about SAC, I know nothing about them. There is a 2002 T145, cast iron slider, tilt 9hp on ebay for 8k, seems a bit high. Also with forward (towards operator) spindle, that seams awkward as far as usability compared to tilting away.

Most of the tilting shaper I'm aware of tilt towards you. Felder being the exception and Martin tilting both ways if I'm not mistaken. SAC is up there with griggio, casolin, Casadei and rest of the euro lines. Martin Wasner had a bunch of SAC t120s if I remember.

[Joe Calhoon]

I had a SAC stacked spindle profiler for a while. I think they are a cut above a lot of the other Italian machines. Pretty stoutly built.

My vintage T23 and The Hofmann shaper both tilt 5 degrees back and 45 degrees forward. On both these machines the fence can swivel all the way around it you wanted back tilt. I think this was typical of German machines of that era. Not sure about the Italians.
the T26 tilts both ways and find I use both forwards and back on that one.