S7 or Exact 63?

[Albert Lee]

Good day

I have an opportunity to upgrade my Felder AD951 to something bigger, I have been wanting to separate the jointer and thickness planer for sometime.

I am considering SCM L’Invincibile S7, and Felder/Format Exact 63.

Luckily both machines are in stock and available for immediate delivery, both with spiral cutter block(Silent Power vs Xylent)

Both will plane timber, preference wise, I like S7 a little more...

The problem is, for Jointer, SCM has nothing right now, Felder here has a new A951L available, I can pick it up from Felder anytime, they are just down the road from me (about 1.5 mile from where I live)

the thing is... Would it be a stupid idea to have a Felder A951L paired to a SCM S7? There is nothing on the used market here.

[Greg Quenneville]

Buy the S7…you know you want it. Keep the AD951 until SCM can get you a planer.

[David Zaret]

i have the S7, a few years old. i run the tersa head on it (by choice). if i had to do it again, i'd probably get the martin, but i think the S7 offers good value for money. it's certainly a beast, and will handle anything you throw at it.

can't speak to the felder.

-- dz

[John P Clark]

I have the plan 51L jointer and an exact 63 planer - happy with both of them. I have had them about 2 yrs and both work as promised. Both have the spiral cutters. I considered the Martins, but almost double the cost, stayed with the Felder. Both go through wood very well, and I have run about 5000 bf thru both machines. I have not used the SCM, but they look like great machines.

[Mark e Kessler]

Greg is spot on with his advice,S7 keep the 951 until an SCM comes up…Free yourself from Felder…

[Patrick Kane]

Oh, these are always fun. I hope you update us with a review of the machine(s) once you receive them.

First, its shallow and irrelevant, but all things equal i would much prefer the machines to match one another. Atleast in my shop, the two are side by side. If i remember correctly, your shaper is SCM too. Quickly looking at things, i dont see why the Felder wouldnt nest with the S7 planer. In fact, the design of the Felder's fence makes it seem like it would nest tighter to the planer than the S7 jointer. I would really fixate on the jointer fence design. My 500mm euro jointer is fantastic, but the fence could be better. I want a fence that retains perfect parallelism to the outfeed table no matter its position across the cutterhead. Mine does not do that, unfortunately. It is pretty solid and has rack and pinion adjustment, but i find i leave it around 18-19" and never move it. This is not the most comfortable position for edge jointing, which is why i would like a better adjusting fence. Other than that, i bet they are similar in performance. The S7 has 12" more of bed length. My joint is 100-102" long, and i dont think ive needed longer. Ive perfectly jointed boards 10-12' in length with my machine. Longer is better, but i dont see a meaningful difference. Can you get a suva guard on either machine? Im not in love with the stock euro guard im seeing on both machines. We had a discussion a year ago about the segmented pork chop from a german company. I like that design or the suvamatic on a wide jointer. Helps prevent you from taking the guard right to the groin, which has happened to me before. I have a tersa head, and i think the insert head is better in the longterm due to the cost of replacing hss tersa knives. Tersa when its sharp is very nice, however.

I cant readily see the price of these, but i assume we are talking $20k for each machine? Is the T54 still $25-27k, or has that sky rocketed in the last two years? The T54 is the machine ive lusted after for years. It seems like jointer perfection--to me, atleast-- from the fence, to the long infeed, to the suvamatic guard. There is kinda nothing i would change about the machine. Heck, it even looks contemporary and beautiful.

[David Zaret]

patrick - i found that putting carbide tersas in the planer gives the best of both worlds. great cut quality, with exceptionally long life, and the ability to sharpen the blades.

i paid $20k for my S7 back at the last AWFS (three years ago?) now i think they are closer to $25k. the martins are much more, closer to $35k i think.

$20k for the S7 was a good deal. i am glad i got it.

-- dz

[Jim Becker]

I think the advice to choose the planer you want now and continue to use the existing machine for flattening/straightening until something you covet becomes available. All of these machines are good tools, but personal preference, even if they are for little things, can count for a lot long term, IMHO.

[Patrick Kane]

patrick - i found that putting carbide tersas in the planer gives the best of both worlds. great cut quality, with exceptionally long life, and the ability to sharpen the blades.

i paid $20k for my S7 back at the last AWFS (three years ago?) now i think they are closer to $25k. the martins are much more, closer to $35k i think.

$20k for the S7 was a good deal. i am glad i got it.

-- dz

I am not a helical/insert head fanboy--what i have is a byrd, which im sure is garbage compared to hermance, martin, scm, etc--but they are a fair amount cheaper in the long run. I swap my tersa m42 blades once a year. I find i go through maybe 1500 bdft before i flip the knives. Conversely, i went 3-4 years on my last planer carbide insert rotation. IF the better insert heads give the surface finish that they market, then i think its worth the initial investment. Amortized over 6-7 years, the head will be paid off. I assume Albert plans on using the machine longer than that, which only makes it more attractive from an economical perspective. I do appreciate the chip size compacting more in the bin too. What i dont like about my byrd cutterhead in my planer is the surface finish is 6/10. Its just not good. I looked at carbide tersa for my 4 knife jointer, but it isnt as financially attractive over HSS. I think it was going to be $600+ for my machine, and then that is only 2 fresh carbide edges. I think its $400-500 to replace the byrd inserts for a 20" machine, but that is 4 edges. Big difference.

Yikes, $35,000 for a jointer is something else. I could probably sell mine for $5,000, and i dont know that the Martin would perform much better. It would look a heck of a lot nicer though, thats for sure.

[David Zaret]

there is no doubt that the carbide tersas on the S7 are a luxury, and if you calculate the "value," it's not there. they are unquestionably not worth the money if you're not hammering on your machine. the HSS tersas are so cheap, and so damn sharp, you can run through them and save a lot of money. i run the carbides in the planer for a few reasons - first, i run a lot more material than you described, and, second, the place that sells and sharpens them here in the US is right down the street from me, and it's quite easy (and less expensive) for me to interact with them. i figured it was worth it. i used to run carbides on my jointer as well, but after hitting a knot and shattering them, i decided to just run steel and swap them out as required. i used to run byrd heads, and i'll never go back after running tersa.

-- dz

[Albert Lee]

Greg is spot on with his advice,S7 keep the 951 until an SCM comes up…Free yourself from Felder…

Thanks Mark. I have seen some photos of earlier version AD series breaking down and making me nervous with mine.

I need the $ from 951 though.

[Albert Lee]

Oh, these are always fun. I hope you update us with a review of the machine(s) once you receive them.

First, its shallow and irrelevant, but all things equal i would much prefer the machines to match one another. Atleast in my shop, the two are side by side. If i remember correctly, your shaper is SCM too. Quickly looking at things, i dont see why the Felder wouldnt nest with the S7 planer. In fact, the design of the Felder's fence makes it seem like it would nest tighter to the planer than the S7 jointer. I would really fixate on the jointer fence design. My 500mm euro jointer is fantastic, but the fence could be better. I want a fence that retains perfect parallelism to the outfeed table no matter its position across the cutterhead. Mine does not do that, unfortunately. It is pretty solid and has rack and pinion adjustment, but i find i leave it around 18-19" and never move it. This is not the most comfortable position for edge jointing, which is why i would like a better adjusting fence. Other than that, i bet they are similar in performance. The S7 has 12" more of bed length. My joint is 100-102" long, and i dont think ive needed longer. Ive perfectly jointed boards 10-12' in length with my machine. Longer is better, but i dont see a meaningful difference. Can you get a suva guard on either machine? Im not in love with the stock euro guard im seeing on both machines. We had a discussion a year ago about the segmented pork chop from a german company. I like that design or the suvamatic on a wide jointer. Helps prevent you from taking the guard right to the groin, which has happened to me before. I have a tersa head, and i think the insert head is better in the longterm due to the cost of replacing hss tersa knives. Tersa when its sharp is very nice, however.

I cant readily see the price of these, but i assume we are talking $20k for each machine? Is the T54 still $25-27k, or has that sky rocketed in the last two years? The T54 is the machine ive lusted after for years. It seems like jointer perfection--to me, atleast-- from the fence, to the long infeed, to the suvamatic guard. There is kinda nothing i would change about the machine. Heck, it even looks contemporary and beautiful.

Thanks Patrick. I had a Tersa head before. the finish on a set of sharp Tersa is very very nice. in some ways better than Silent Power.

Where I am the list price of S7 is $24k USD, They are willing to let the floor model go for $18k, The Exact 63 is $22k, I like to have a look at Martin but they are not available here.

[Greg Quenneville]

Just hop on a jet to BNE Albert. The Martin dealer is within 25 minutes of the airport. If it was me, I would be opting for Martin for both, but the money is probably $80K NZ for both.

[Albert Lee]

Just hop on a jet to BNE Albert. The Martin dealer is within 25 minutes of the airport. If it was me, I would be opting for Martin for both, but the money is probably $80K NZ for both.

I have checked around, unfortunately TransTasman sea freight seems to be one of the most expensive around the world...

I went to SCM today to have a look at the S7 in operation, put a few pieces of timber through it, very happy with the machine, I'd like to put a deposit down on the S7 and full payment when the jointer arrives - I love to go L'Invincibile jointer but its pricey. $18k EURO/USD. a Class 410 jointer is almost half price at $10K EURO/USD.

also an update on my L'Invincibile si X, its now further delayed to Ex-Factor week 36/37 (Sep). meaning I maybe able to receive the saw by Christmas. I dont have much faith now cos this is the 3rd time this date has changed, originally was Apr, then Jul, now Sep, apparently there is something to do with Ukraine - what I am told.

Anyhow the later is better cos I need to come up with the $$$$.

[Greg Quenneville]

Well, if you can get both the SCM machines for US 36K that’s quite a bit cheaper than the Martins.

I believe that Martin ships directly to NZ and the tech flies over for commissioning and instruction. I know the tech and can report that he is precisely the guy you want setting up machines. And he is a very skilled woodworker who does fastidious work.

[Albert Lee]

Bought myself a Delta RJ42 with Shelix cutter head for $1200 USD

Guy came and paid deposit for the Felder AD951. all goes well I should have the S7 in September.

my S7 will come with a powered scissor table extension (1200mm x 630mm). I think this option alone is $2000 USD/Euro.

[Patrick Kane]

That is a great deal on the jointer in the states, let alone your neck of the woods. I haven’t used an RJ42, but I’ve been around 3-4 of them at auctions. They appeared to be good machines. Nice long tables and thick table castings. Does yours have the nonsegmented infeed/outfeed lip? That’s maybe the one complaint against the design. In the end, I think that feature only reduces noise emission, so not the end of the world. The chamfered table corners are a nice touch.

That planer sounds like it will be a dream. I’ve seen that outfeed table on Martin planers and a used Kolle planer.

[Paul J Kelly]

Congrats Albert!

I know we were talking about it before and I am excited you ordered it. I expect another video demo!

PK

[Albert Lee]

That is a great deal on the jointer in the states, let alone your neck of the woods. I haven’t used an RJ42, but I’ve been around 3-4 of them at auctions. They appeared to be good machines. Nice long tables and thick table castings. Does yours have the nonsegmented infeed/outfeed lip? That’s maybe the one complaint against the design. In the end, I think that feature only reduces noise emission, so not the end of the world. The chamfered table corners are a nice touch.

That planer sounds like it will be a dream. I’ve seen that outfeed table on Martin planers and a used Kolle planer.

Mine comes with non segmented infeed outfeed lip... a bit noisy but livable.

[Albert Lee]

Thanks Paul! the workshop is a mess but here are a couple of pics

The table is 2600mm/102 inches!


483626

483627

[Jim Becker]

That Delta is a "beast"...

[Greg Quenneville]

I had never heard of that Delta before, and now I see one at auction close by. Well, two days drive, but still…

[Jared Sankovich]

I had never heard of that Delta before, and now I see one at auction close by. Well, two days drive, but still…

They are rebadged invictas.

[Warren Lake]

different machines I know but still remind me of each other the boxy shape they are. This one from the Craftwood Auction when it was closed.

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[Greg Quenneville]

They do seem pretty artless compared to classic old wwm. I imagine it, the thicknesser and a green Altendorf panel saw might go for a combined 4K US. Plus fees. It’s tempting…

[Albert Lee]

They do seem pretty artless compared to classic old wwm. I imagine it, the thicknesser and a green Altendorf panel saw might go for a combined 4K US. Plus fees. It’s tempting…

I think they are ok. They weight about 600kg. I like mine. It’s solidly built. Hard to move though if you have no headroom for a forklift.

[Warren Lake]

pry bar and pipe, if the pipe is long enough it will also slide on the pipe. best on a smooth floor.

[Albert Lee]

pry bar and pipe, if the pipe is long enough it will also slide on the pipe. best on a smooth floor.

I used that to move my double mitre saw years ago. looks like this maybe the only option.

[Warren Lake]

if your floor is smooth ill come over and do it for you. realize its a bit of a drive.

You need a decent pry bar and some number of pipe. It works so easy, if the pipe is larger easier still. I have this special pry bar and need to post it here sometime so we can figure what it is, friend gave it to me he didnt know where he got it. I think it was made by a Samurai guy. I lost it once for four years and friends got tired of hearing me wine about it, even put me in therapy then one day rebuilding a roof section it fell out of the soffit. The mystery was answered after four years of looking. better than winning the lottery, Okay close.

I think it came from the auto industry, I modified it when I got and should have taken photos right away. Not for sure. I moved the 2,500 lb bandsaw with it half an inch at a time 20 feet. Rough floor 9 feet tall no way I was going to try and roll that floor is rough and too uneven.

[Greg Quenneville]

Yeah, that was a favourite ploy of my father. But there was plenty of stout black iron pipe back then, and good pry bars. He even had a pry bar with steel wheels and a long handle. It may have come from the old New York Central station in Windsor, Ont.

The galvanised noodles I see here pretending to be pipe would collapse under my weight, let alone a 600 kg machine

[Robert London]

I often browse the Scott and Sargeant website to drool over all the high end machinery. I like places that list prices so I can fantasize about what I'm probably not going to buy.

https://www.scosarg.com/new-machines/planers

[Patrick Kane]

I often browse the Scott and Sargeant website to drool over all the high end machinery. I like places that list prices so I can fantasize about what I'm probably not going to buy.

https://www.scosarg.com/new-machines/planers


Thats interesting their list price for a T54 is converting to around $18,293. In stock too!

[Albert Lee]

Well the beast is here, it has been a slow process, needed to move a few machines around (that Delta took the longest..prying bar with round bars) and being weekend need to take wife and kids out.


484466


My truck is almost 6ft high internally. the box measures 6ft in xyz direction
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484468

Its pretty big.
484469

after a number of hours of thinking and planning, this is where it should live... for now.
484470

484471


The shaper now sits where the Felder combo used to sit.
484472


The ducting that was used for sander is now for the S7. almost perfect fit. if I put in a blast gate I maybe able to take out that flex.
484473

The cabling and wiring is very straight forward, but new to me, SCM offered technician to come on site but it will be a few days out, I plan to pop into SCM today to check out the wiring (both pneumatic and electronic) for the lift table, just to double confirm.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Congrats Albert. Looks like a beautiful machine.

You may have already said...what are the specs - motor size, cutterhead type?

[Alan Lightstone]

Amazing looking machine Albert. Congratulations. I’ve never seen one with pneumatic adjustments for roller pressure. Fascinating. I didn’t know that existed.

[Jim Becker]

Tiny little thing.... :D :D :D (Congrats!)

[David Zaret]

it's a nice machine. albert, did you get the rubber infeed roller, or the serrated one? i can give you some pointers on the air pressure...

[Albert Lee]

Congrats Albert. Looks like a beautiful machine.

You may have already said...what are the specs - motor size, cutterhead type?

Hi Phillip, its 9kw/410v, SCM's spiral cutter block, 2 outfeed rollers, it came with pneumatic controlled extension table, the rest of the spec are just standard SCM L'Invincibile's spec. all the optional items are included.

[Albert Lee]

it's a nice machine. albert, did you get the rubber infeed roller, or the serrated one? i can give you some pointers on the air pressure...

Thanks David! I think mine came with serrated one, its interchangeable roller anyway I am told. what pressure should I set/aim for the in/out roller? I deal with pine, 95% of the time.

What will higher pressure do? what will lower pressure do? this is so new to me.

I've just finishing wiring up the extension table, the machine is fully functional now.


Just a few more screws and cover plate to put back.
484505


484506

484507

[David Zaret]

no no - the OUTFEED roller is interchangeable. i tried to swap the infeed roller with the rubber roller, and that's effectively impossible. SCM took it back because they agreed it was effectively impossible. there was some confusion early on, but i can say from experience, that is a factory option, not a "swap the roller yourself" option.

the infeed roller pressure should be set very low - barely off zero. i have the outfeed set about half way on the gauge. if you dial the infeed pressure up, and take less than ~.5mm off, you'll see the marks from the roller on your finished edge. now, i have a segmented infeed roller, and yours appears to be solid, so you may not see the same thing i'm seeing, but, that's my experience.

i run tersa knives in my machine, and you have the spiral head. the tersas give absolutely exceptional cut quality, and i would expect yours to do at least as well, if not better. this machine is a monster, and you can throw a lot at it - i've had 12', 20" wide 8/4 white oak boards hanging out the end, running at damn near full speed, taking off 1/8" in a pass, and it doesn't blink.

enjoy - reach out if you have any questions.

-- dz




Thanks David! I think mine came with serrated one, its interchangeable roller anyway I am told. what pressure should I set/aim for the in/out roller? I deal with pine, 95% of the time.

What will higher pressure do? what will lower pressure do? this is so new to me.

I've just finishing wiring up the extension table, the machine is fully functional now.


Just a few more screws and cover plate to put back.
484505


484506

484507

[David Zaret]

albert - in looking at your pictures, you do in fact have a single solid serrated infeed roller, different than mine. it might be able to be swapped. the split roller i have... not possible. so, YMMV.

-- dz




no no - the OUTFEED roller is interchangeable. i tried to swap the infeed roller with the rubber roller, and that's effectively impossible. SCM took it back because they agreed it was effectively impossible. there was some confusion early on, but i can say from experience, that is a factory option, not a "swap the roller yourself" option.

the infeed roller pressure should be set very low - barely off zero. i have the outfeed set about half way on the gauge. if you dial the infeed pressure up, and take less than ~.5mm off, you'll see the marks from the roller on your finished edge. now, i have a segmented infeed roller, and yours appears to be solid, so you may not see the same thing i'm seeing, but, that's my experience.

i run tersa knives in my machine, and you have the spiral head. the tersas give absolutely exceptional cut quality, and i would expect yours to do at least as well, if not better. this machine is a monster, and you can throw a lot at it - i've had 12', 20" wide 8/4 white oak boards hanging out the end, running at damn near full speed, taking off 1/8" in a pass, and it doesn't blink.

enjoy - reach out if you have any questions.

-- dz

[David Zaret]

fyi, here's what my infeed roller looks like:

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[Warren Lake]

whats the point of having a solid sectional infeed?

[Albert Lee]

albert - in looking at your pictures, you do in fact have a single solid serrated infeed roller, different than mine. it might be able to be swapped. the split roller i have... not possible. so, YMMV.

-- dz


yes. I have a solid serrated infeed. I am not sure the advantage of swapping the serrated to the outfeed and rubber to the infeed?

[Warren Lake]

you can feed different thicknesses of wood at the same time otherwise the roller may be held up by a taller piece and not feed the thinner one.

[David Zaret]

no, don't do that. you want rubber on the outfeed. if i had to do it over again, i would have also chosen rubber on the infeed. in fact, this is how Martin's planer comes by default, and it's an option for the S7, one i just didn't know about. your single infeed roller, with appropriate pressure set, should serve you quite well.



yes. I have a solid serrated infeed. I am not sure the advantage of swapping the serrated to the outfeed and rubber to the infeed?