Speedy 400 Laser Firing Problem

[Chase Williams]

I have a weird one, we got a speedy 400 w/ 80w iRadion tube. The tube was only firing at ~26w so we sent it off to evergreen to be recharged. I got everything recharged, reinstalled, and aligned but the laser is having a very odd issue. The weird part is the tube is not firing unless its at 100% power & <70% speed, otherwise there is nothing. I.E. if i were to engrave at 75% p and 70% s, the output that I see is 0% p and 70% s, but if i crank it up to 100%p and 70% s, its very clearly working.

Here is what I have tried/observed
1. The lights on the laser tube are flashing when it's suppose to be lasering.
2. I have rebooted Ruby and the machine and the same result is happening.
3. I tried calling Trotec's main line, no answer, i left a message.
4. I tried texting a Trotec tech I have worked with in the past, but haven't heard back yet

Next Steps
1. Try on Job Control, just in case Ruby is bugging out.
2. Try another design, though this wouldnt make sense as it works fine at 100% p.
3. I might try to reflash the most recent firmware, eventhough im pretty sure it already has the most recent.

Suspicions:
1. I wonder if after having the tube recharged, if the tickle power changes or any of the service settings??? As the lights are flashing on the back of the tube.
2. It could be a ruby bug, but i just dont think so as the lights are flashing properly on the back of the tube.
3. ???

Any ideas you have please let me know.

[Mike Null]

Chase
Have you downloaded and installed the July 19 hotfix for Ruby? Hotfix Ruby® 2.3.1

Don't know if it'll help this issue but you need it anyway.

[Chase Williams]

Hey Mike, hope alls going well. I did do the hotfix already. I just got off of an hour long call with a very good trotec rep and we concluded that there might be a bug in Ruby as it did function properly in Job Control. However part of what was odd was the test pulse at 5% didn't fire the laser however 10% seemed right in line. I dont think its relevant and when i have a bit more time im going to try 6-9% to see if we are just a tiny bit off. We fully uninstalled ruby w/ deleting files in directories and reinstalled and still the same issue. What is so odd is it seems to be effected by speed, for instance with the same power settings it would not fire at 100% speed, but it would at 70%. They took the service files from both Ruby and Job control and are sending them to Austria to see what we get. We tried one of the stock files that Ruby is installed with as a sample and same thing so its not isolated to a single file. On the plus side i can just switch to job control and it works, on the downside, I like Ruby. He had mentioned that I should test the two power supplies and that I should read 40.3v on each and i should test the laser signal cable, by putting a female ethernet connector on the ethernet cable and putting the red line of a multimeter (DC voltage) to pin 1 and the black to ground and I should read 3.5-5v. So that will test some stuff too eventhough, I do not believe that to be related (I put the detailed instructions to help anyone else that might need to do this). Lets keep our fingers that Austria figures it out. For reference its a 2012 Speedy 400 w/ 80w iRadion tube.

[Mike Null]

Chase

Sorry that I'm not a techie. I also do not use Ruby as JC has been reliable and easy to use. I did download Ruby and I keep it current. I'm in my peak season and just don't have time on top of which the hard drive on my primary pc just fried and one of my sublimation printers went on the fritz. That's put me about 3 days behind and customers are nervous.

[Kev Williams]

Since Ruby doesn't work right but JC does, just based on my troubleshooting experiences, that just about rules out everything EXCEPT Ruby. To be certain, you should run a gambit of different speed and power combo's in JC to see if it passes all tests-- which you're probably doing right now :)

[Chase Williams]

A little more development here, i am going to check the voltages of the power supply and the signal cable to the tube. I am having issues now in job control. Its very odd as its like once the tube warms up its more likely to accept different power/speed settings. I am thinking its a 50/50 chance between there not being enough signal and needing a tube replacement. If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions, let me know.

[Chase Williams]

Hoping to have time to put a multimeter on the machine. I keep forgetting to bring one to the office. But another development. I called Evergreen Laser about the tube to see their thoughts as, pre (mindset of) Ruby bug, the Trotec rep thought that it was most likely a tube but to check the isolated power supplies and signal cable. Evergreen said that they fully tested the tube at various powers for an hour each, they said they hit like 25% for an hour 50% for an hour and so on. Not sure I got the percentages right but the point is the same and they were confident that the tube was in good repair and condition when they sent it back to me and that any errors would have become apparent during testing. Evergreen seems very trust worthy and even assigned one of their people that’s an expert in the area to email me and help, which he did same day… very impressed with Evergreen’s service, below is their response. This is exciting, as I was dreading a tube exchange for both price and pain factor. So at least from what I have grasped all roads are pointing that the tube is not faulty and that it’s most likely a signal issue (I would think that’s just a cable replacement, hopefully not too painful) or a power supply. I was told that the iRadions are very sensitive to voltage (nobody has said damage will happen but have mentioned they won’t fire if not at nearly an exact 40.3v. I’m thinking I’ll make it up there Sunday with a multimeter and pray it’s a cable replacement or even better a knob adjustment on the power supply. If I don’t find anything with the multimeter, I am going to follow Evergreen’s advice below of power step down test.


One last note, it has been reported to me that it seems like we get different responses to laser fire based on warmup. For instance if the laser has been firing at 100% power and immediately after I try 70-80% it will sometimes work and other not. If it’s cold it doesn’t seem to work. This is from another person and I have not personally seen this specific issue, but might lead me to think signal cable.

I would think that at this point we have 4 possibilities: 1.) bad signal cable 2. Bad/out-of-tune power supply/s 3. Bad laser tube 4. Bug. I don’t think 4 is very likely as the issue is across two softwares JC and Ruby. I think any one of 1-3 or possibly a mix are possible. I would think that a multimeter should give some answers.

RESPONSE START


Well, I have never seen this particular issue, but it doesn't really sound like a power supply issue. It also is not a typical laser tube issue either, as you are saying the laser shows plenty of power when it fires.


Typically, power supply issues are just the opposite. The laser will fire at low power, and crap out as the power is increased. However, anything is possible.


My first thought would be that the PWM signal is not functioning properly.


One thing Chase could try is to run a job that requires multiple power settings. You can usually set the power according to color selection in the software. Start out running at 100%, then reduce the power on the next layer to 90%, then 80.....and see what happens.


Let me know how you make out.


Thanks,


Dan

[Kev Williams]

483595

^^ this is a simple test you can try I saved as/in Corel 9, it's eight 8" x 1" slanted 'bars in 8 different colors- the reason for the slant is simply to add white space to break up the firing a bit. Set the black at 100% power, then maybe 15% less each subsequent color...

[Chase Williams]

Well things got a little bit easier today, I did put a multimeter on the machine and tested each power supply (isolated) and they were all spot on, then i tested the signal cable to the laser and it was 4.4-4.5, which is right in line with the specs of between 3.5-5v DC. I took some compressed air and blew out some dust and cleaned everything. Then knowing this means the tube, i fired up the laser to test once again and at no point was the laser firing. All roads lead me to believe that the tube has failed. Evergreen is my next email, I am hoping to get my money back or a working tube, which is only fair. If they refund me, I suspect that I will have no choice but to do an exchange with Trotec, but I am hoping that Evergreen can repair it. Either way its a bummer, as it means at least 2 weeks of downtime for the machine.

[Chase Williams]

The plot thickens…

I have sent the laser back and Evergreen is saying that the laser tube is functioning normally and that the problem is not the tube.

There isn’t much to the actual laser firing mechanism, but there is another variable that I haven’t thought about until it was brought up, the variable power setting. I have checked the power supplies and am showing 40.3 DC, exactly. I have checked the laser firing both at the endpoint and at the tube and neither were showing signs of firing, with the red light flashing on the back of the tube, when it’s suppose to fire. I aligned everything Myself and had it spot on, and it was working fine at 100% power at the furthest point at each corner. Having Dan mention that the variable power setting is on pin 3 of the RJ45 plug, I suppose my next steps will be to take a multimeter to both the power plugin for the laser vs the power supply and to check the RJ45 at pin 3, if pin 3 is not proper, I’ll contact Trotec and Dan, and follow the serial and RG6 to the what I am pretty sure will lead me to the motherboard and test directly as well.

Ignoring that it could be a software issue which Trotec says tickle power should not need adjusted, but double checking with Dan. I can only come up with two conclusions: 1.) While the power supply is showing 40.3v there maybe something loose to where the actual plug-in is not getting exact power. Even though the lights on the tube are lighting up. It’s possible but I doubt it, we fully cleaned and serviced the machine within the past 2 months and checked for any loose cables. 2.) Back again to the signal cable, while I was told in the past to check pin 1 for 3.5-5v DC+, Dan is the first to bring up pin 3 on the RJ45 sends the percent of fire power. It would seem that pin 3 would be the logical conclusion for the error at this point with all other things considered. Trotec has an odd wiring harness that takes, what I think is RG6 or RG11 (I remember it being thick but I don’t think RG11 thick) and a serial connection and combines that into a RJ45 connector.

On the plus side, in the back of my head I was thinking “oh no it’s a bad tube”, Photovac mentioned at the beginning that iRadion tubes should be exchanged vs recharged but Evergreen was confident. At ~$1100 for a recharge from Evergreen (including shipping) vs $3200 + shipping for an exchange from Trotec, I choose the confident Evergreen to save some money. At least I don’t have a $3200+ problem… I hope. I am praying for it to be a loose connection on the wiring harvest, however if the signal on pin 3 is improper it’s possible the motherboard could be defective or a bad serial, RG6, or RJ45 cable. Evergreen uses the RJ45 on the tube to test so we can feel confident that the RJ45 on the tube itself is functioning.

In any case it can’t hurt to disconnect the power leads, RJ 45, serial, and RG6 on each end and blow out with compressed air and hope for an improvement as well, though I will test first as I would like to properly diagnose and know what the issue was.

My understanding is that the Trotec 80w iRadion 156 (really a 60w tube) laser itself is relatively simple, it needs 3 things: 1. Power (40.3v DC) 2. Signal on pin 1 of RJ45 (3.5-5v DC+) 3. Power % on pin 3 of RJ45 (0-5v DC). Considering that I’ve tested items 1 & 2, I’m led to think item 3 maybe the problem.

I would like to specifically mention that throughout this process Evergreen has been very stand up. They connected me with Dan (laser guru)! They sent a return label for the tube to re-evaluate and had been quick to turn everything around at each step. I would without hesitation use them again and give them my stamp of approval. It’s not an ad, just a customer that thinks they have been above and beyond in an odd situation.

In short, could be as simple as compressed air or as complicated as a motherboard but we are getting down to very few options for the problem to be.

Fingers crossed for compressed air solving, or a bad cable. Let’s pray, the motherboard is in tact.

QUESTIONS:
Is there a possibility that the tickle power could change from a tube recharge? Or any other software setting?

Software Settings
Tickle Delay: 486ms
Tickle Power 189

[Kev Williams]

Not sure if you read my last 'repair' thread, where the X axis limit switch wire in my big Chinese Triumph, all alone running thru the drag chain, became brittle and broke in half, simply because it ran alongside the X stepper wires within the drag chain, and the break was right next to where the X-stepper wires were soldered together-- obviously those wires get pretty warm, especially at the connection... one of those soldered stepper wires broke years ago due to the heat and the connection bending in the drag chain, I posted that repair here also... Not an isolated thing either, also a few years ago an X stepper wire in my "good" Gravograph LS-900 did kind of the same thing, also IN THE DRAG CHAIN; somewhere/somehow the green stepper wire was rubbing something, eventually wearing thru the insulation, and the wire began grounding out against the cabinet, throwing a shower of sparks-- easy to find problem at least! I repaired the wire and all was well for a short time, then one day the X-stepper started growing it's own brain-- turned out the short to ground screwed up the X axis driver in the controller and I had to send it in to Gravovgraph to get repaired...

ANY way-- I say this a lot: crappy wires and/or connectors and plugs of all kinds have nearly ALWAYS been the source of every problem I've ever had. In 40 years of running all the various computer controlled machines, I've had 1 power supply go bad, and 3 controllers go bad. Every other crazy problem has usually been a bad microswitch, or sketchy wire or connection.

Short version: My bet is on a wire or connection :) As to tickle, I've never touched the tickle settings, and only 2 of the 5 C02 lasers I've owned even HAVE a tickle setting. My Taiwan-made GCC Explorer runs a 30w Synrad, and nowhere in the instructions is anything resembling a tickle setting mentioned, and my old 25w Synrad Universal didn't have a tickle setting. So not real sure how much help it really is. My LS-900 and the GCC- which are 18 and 17 years old, both occasionally have 'start to fire' issues, BUT, it's always when the laser is cold. Sometimes the delay is short, sometimes 30 seconds or more (but that's rare), but NEVER has either machine quit firing in the middle of a job, or NOT fired on ANY subsequent jobs right after running a prior job, regardless of settings...

LAST note on this: my Triumph, which will be 9 years old in November, is still running the original 80w RECI tube. Lately it's developed a 'machine-gun' type of firing at lower powers, specifically, at 28% power or above it fires religiously, at 27% and below, it fires erratically; you can see it, even hear it, and the mA meter even shows it! In most cases it's not noticeable on the finished work, but half-thru 'snap' cuts are pretty inconsistent looking. BUT-- every once in awhile I'll play with the wires on the mA meter, and the problem disappears. For awhile anyway- So I'm not sure if one of those wires is loose, or if it's loose on the tube itself, or if the meter is bad, or if it's just coincidence!

-my bet is a loose or bad wire ;)

Hopefully you get lucky!

[Chase Williams]

Hi Kev, thanks for writing in!

I agree that the most likely situation is a bad wire/wiring harness. The wiring harness is definitely made in house at Trotec, it’s clearly only for this application to take RG6 and serial and convert the combination into RJ45. My bet is that it’s that wiring harness. I wished I had known about pin 3 prior to sending off the tube. I haven’t tested it but it’s the most likely diagnosis at this point and would have only taken seconds to test when I was there previously. I’ll test the whole cabinet to make sure that nothing is energizing the ground (whole cabinet), that’s a good suggestion as it’s something that could happen but you wouldn’t think of. We bought the machine used from an individual that only used it ~900 hours across 10 years and kept it pristine. I personally have cleaned it and it looks like new. I am always looking for any problem items like loose wires, etc when doing a thorough cleaning and didn’t spot anything but nevertheless it’s a good idea and I’ll look again.

Going along the same idea as what you are saying the wiring harness has a lot of metal from the outside of the BNC connector for the RG6 and the outside of the serial connector; combine that with the entirely metal body that surrounds that, I would think those outside terminals should be ground anyways but nevertheless maybe I’ll wrap them with electrical tape at the metal ends just in case. I am hoping that I can get up there to test pin 3 today, depending on what I find, I may go exploring with a multimeter. Send good vibes for it to be the wiring harness or just a general loose wire that didn’t cause any damage to electronics!

Off topic, but does anyone have any experience with repairing a ribbon connection that is permanently mounted? I have a printhead that is $2500 and someone pulled the ribbon on it and damaged the connection. As anyone could imagine I am not happy about that one.

[Kev Williams]

Gravograph and Trotec are pretty much on par as to 'quality'... even so,
this is my drag chain wiring now--

484267

and farther forward, the menagerie of stepper plug wires...
484266

-I forgot that my short circuit also took out the stepper, and we had a helluva time getting the right stepper, think it took 3 tries. Never bothered to put that cap back on, and figured if I did it was probably a good way for another short circuit to happen! ;)

ribbon cable, funny you mention that- My GCC's X servo motor is connected to the motherboard via a ribbon cable, which during my last cleaning I accidentally pulled it out of the connector on the motherboard. I ended up having to snip the end of the ribbon off and strip back the covering on the 'top side' that join up with the female plug, which I also happened to break--
While not the "correct" way to fix it, it's been working:
484268484269
--half the motherboard clip is missing, and the terminals are on the top side of the female pocket. Without the whole connector, the only way to get it the ribbon to make connection and stay put was to make some shims and stuff them in on the bottom side of the ribbon! It actually took me 2 days to get this to work, had to use TWO shims from .025 Rowmark stock and hand-taper the ends with sandpaper just right so they'd squeeze and and hold but not fall out-- the other piece of white Duets in the left pic spans from the top to bottom of the opening; it keeps just enough tension on the ribbon to keep it in place and also keeps the ribbon INside the cabinet where I won't hit it with my leg when walking by! --The reason I don't put the door back on is it has a fan and wires mounted to it that are precariously close to the ribbon so I just keep it off. I have several fans running in the garage to help move the cool AC air around (and warm heater air in the winter), and that seems to be enough to keep the board cool--

I just took these pics, and also this one of the GCC running 6 of the 350 solar info placards
I have on order :)
484270

I'm pretty adept at jerryrigging :D (and it's cheap!)

[Chase Williams]

Excuse my delay, I have throughly looked over the machine and played with the multimeter and I can report that the incoming power socket for the laser tube is showing 40.3 and that the machine does not have the ground energised, I cannot find any loose wires or cables. I have taken compressed air to all of the connections that talk to the laser tube and still nothing. It is very odd, i am getting laser power at 50% but now to test the pulse width modulation (PWM), which can not be measured with a multimeter, I am leaning on one of my engineer buddies and hoping he can borrow an oscilloscope to see if we can find out if its the cable or motherboard. It looks like the cable itself is a combination of a BNC terminal RG6 with serial and a 2 pin molex connector all to RJ45; it appears that iRadion manufactures the cable, so i can feel confident that if i seek a replacement Trotec nor the manufacturer (iRadion) will be cheap. Its never fun to purchase expensive parts with no confident hope that it will solve the problem. I know nothing of using an oscilloscope or anything more than the concept of how PWM works, but in theory i would think we would see voltage spikes and drops in the milliseconds, which might explain how these lasers can laze so precisely at high speeds on an analog signal. I believe 2017+ models are fully digital and I dont think have this but I maybe confusing the tube with the servos.

Kev, I dont know if it helps but the power chain on the Trotec is an Igus e-chain 045, yours looks very similar. I am surprised to see they routed wire through the power chain which will obviously move a lot and rub. I might suggest wrapping all of the wires in electrical tape as without some kind of heavier shielding you are definitely bound for a problem. Ill try to post a picture of the ribbon cable i am working with it was permanently soldered on and got partially ripped off. The solder is probably beyond my skillset as its very small and would probably take a surgeon to accomplish. I think im going to take it to a computer repair place and see what I get, if not its painful... $2500 printhead.

[Kev Williams]

" I am getting laser power at 50%" -- Might be a tell, however, I'm one of those folks with just enough knowledge 'to be dangerous' about lasers, but 50% power is indicative of a blown capacitor in the laser's electronics--it's my understanding that there's 2 capacitors, each one responsible for 50% of the laser's power output, and I'm aware of a few users that have had this issue. My BIL's 40w Synrad in his LS800 has been on 50% power for like 8 years now, works just fine other than half the power... Our Gravo rep measured his beam power at 21 watts awhile back, and he believes his tube has lost a capacitor. He doesn't use the laser much these days and can't justify the repair cost so he just engraves slower when he DOES use it...

Not sure how to test the capacitors, I'm thinking Synrads, just getting into the electronics section is easy to do and bad capacitors are sometimes easy to spot visually, but not sure cuz I've never had a tube apart.

Re-reading thru your post, seems your power issues are all over the map, so... 484652

[Chase Williams]

Sorry please let me rephrase, it will not work below 50% power but 50% and above it will fire. The tube was just fully tested a second time at Evergreen, so i feel pretty confident that its in good shape. Im 99% confident that the issue is in 1 of 3 places, the motherboard, the cable, or something with the tickle power. I just dont want to use good money to chase after bad and would love to isolate the problem. I am leaning on the motherboard as thats where the PWM, I would think would occur and think that might be the issue as the previously tested RJ45 PIN 1 was showing proper voltage. Im hoping for it to be the cable.

[Chase Williams]

Trotec today sent:

Hi Chase,

This seems like a bad tube to me. Especially after reading that you tested each power supply while isolated and the 5volt signal on the board.
Thats really all there is left to do.

Evergreen doesnt have a trotec laser. All they do is hook up a single power supply to it and usually just test for 100% power that its firing what its supposed to.
Generally evergreen only refills the gas, they do not test or replace the boards, sensors, etc that are inside. There is an rf board inside I believe that gets the signal from the I/O board so it knows how much power to send. Its not just a refill the gas and thats that.

Even if we send a tech on site which is pretty much where we are at, we would need one of our tubes there to swap out and see what happens. because all we do is test power supplies, test for 5volt signal, then ask for a tube.

END EMAIL

I don’t know what to think but will agree that nothing seems wrong with anything but the tube, if you rule out that it’s impossible for the tube to be defective than the signal cable or motherboard are the only options but there is no sign of error from either. At this point I’m inclined to agree with Trotec on this one and feel like I am looking for unicorns on a laser that has very little wear and shows no signs of problems short of tube. If anyone can help me understand who is right and why it would be great! I have an extremely hard time believing the motherboard has failed, I think its possible that the multiple cables to RJ45 has, but again think that its a stretch compared to the tube as there is 900hours on the machine and it never moved until extremely recently only to move locations. I put aside the laser as Evergreen tested it, but to be fair I do not know how they tested it or anything else. It is very possible that it will work 100% of the time at 100% power, as Trotec mentions was the testing method. I thought I remembered Evergreen saying that they tested at each 10% interval for an hour, but not sure, even if they did, is that for/during the refill process, or is the completed after the fact (if it does happen)? In any case the simplest and most logical answer is bad tube, but if the tube is truly tested then it has to be cable or motherboard. I was told tickle power shouldn't change between recharges/tubes.

[Ronald Blue]

I have no knowledge to help with but some thoughts to add. Trotec sees Evergreen as a competitor so they are naturally going to blame them. They did after all potentially take a sale from them. In fact I don't know if I would have even brought them up. I've encountered similar situations and that just gives them an out. I would reach out to Evergreen and ask them on how they test the rebuilt tube. I'm surprised it wouldn't be accompanied by a test document showing it's performance at each setting. Like I said I know less than a fence post about lasers but have experience on other things

[Chase Williams]

When i sent the ticket to Trotec I put a link to this post here, which I think is fair to illustrate that I've done a fair bit of diagnostics and that I'm capable vs being discounted on what would be presumed my lack of ability. I dont know if Trotec blaming Evergreen is unreasonable here, I did a search to see if anyone else has used an oscilloscope to check their laser and cant find anything. This paired with two different Trotec techs not mentioning it seems to me that an error along these lines is pretty uncommon. I am going to take an o-scope to the laser tomorrow, if my mind is thinking right that should solve this debate. If the o-scope shows proper function, then its the tube, plain and simple nothing else could be wrong. If it's the tube, I am going to be frustrated at all of the lost time. If somehow the answer is not clear tomorrow, my Trotec rep said he would be stopping by in the next two weeks. I wonder if he could bring an exchange and if that solves the problems, naturally I'd have to pay for the exchange, but probably wouldn't if it didn't work. I just feel like all along the tube has been the natural answer to this problem and that I have been chasing unicorns in the machine. I just simply trusted that if Evergreen said the tube was good, especially with two tests, it was good... but I dont know how they are testing and if its "good" only at 100% power or everything in-between. I'll post more when I know more.

[Kev Williams]

Where's Dave Sheldrake when you need him? :) -I'm sure most of us know Dave is/was THEE authority on lasers around here, but unfortunately, his time on the creek has been sporadic as of late.
This here >>> https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286538-Evergreen-Laser-Corp&p=3063798&highlight=#post3063798 --is a link to a thread where Evergreen is discussed; it's scrolled down to post #6, read Dave's thoughts about about Evergreen...

And I must add-- while I have no grudge against Trotec, and have personally spoken with one of their reps who was in town awhile back who was very courteous and professional, the tone of that letter above reeks of sour grapes. And to flatly state Evergreen "Generally... only refills the gas, they do not test or replace the boards", well, I personally know that's not true. From an email from Jean during my tube repairs 2 years ago:


Hi Kevin,

The tube was filled yesterday, but at least half of your rf electronics are not working. Our head tech (my husband) has been in the hospital since Friday. He handles all rf repairs. He is expected back to work next week. I will update you then. Have a great weekend!

And I also spoke to Jean on the phone later on, whereas she explained in great detail to me that, after my 40w tube would only muster 31 watts after a recharge and RF board rebuild, that it was likely due to bad mirrors within the tube, that it would be around $1600 to replace the mirrors, but advised against it because they'd at-the-time been dealing with warranty issues with their mirror-vendor's replacement mirrors failing or not performing correctly, and they hadn't found suitable replacements....

--I may be prejudiced a bit, but that doesn't sound like a 'just does re-gassing' shop to me... And IMO, ANY thing Sheldrake has to say about lasers or others who knows about them is GOLD. However, to be sure, I can't speak to Evergreen's expertise with Trotec lasers, but in my mind the difference between a "Trotec" laser and a Synrad laser to Evergreen would be akin to the difference between a Holley and an Edlebrock carburetor to a seasoned mechanic: The do the same thing, just made a bit different... ;)

I'm afraid I'm about out of ideas, so best I got is, good luck from here! 484753

[Glen Monaghan]

I am going to take an o-scope to the laser tomorrow, if my mind is thinking right that should solve this debate. If the o-scope shows proper function, then its the tube, plain and simple nothing else could be wrong.

The vast majority of portable meters used to check voltage (volt meters or volt-ohm-milliameters/VOMs) are battery operated and can safely read the voltage difference between two points in an electrical circuit.

In contrast, virtually all garden-variety oscilloscopes are plugged into the wall and have their negative probe referenced to ground. In general, you connect the negative scope probe to a circuit ground and then probe different circuit points with the positive probe. So far, so good.

However, it is VERY common for power circuit outputs to be floating or referenced to something other than ground. For example, with a 40VDC supply, we generally assume the "-" output is ground or 0V and the "+" output is 40 volts higher than that. If true, you can connect your scope across the outputs and see any voltage fluctuations. The problem is that some supplies fix the "+" output at some particular voltage (and that voltage could be floating without any direct reference to ground) and then regulate the "-" output to be 40 volts LOWER than the "+"). If you connect your ground-referenced scope probe to such a supply's "-" output, you are going to short circuit the power supply output stage through the probe. Depending on their circuitry, you likely will blow your scope's input amp and possibly fry the power supply output regulator. Even if you don't damage either, you won't get an accurate reading.

Moral of the story: you need to use a floating differential input scope (uncommon and expensive) or an isolated battery powered scope, or you need to know in advance that the signal points you are trying to measure are ground referenced. Otherwise you won't get a proper reading and are likely to fry some circuitry.

[Chase Williams]

I appreciate the advice and will share it with the engineer thats testing it. Below is what Evergreens expert has said, I am assuming I run little to no risk with using the ground as the proper pins. The o-scope and PWM, is out of my wheelhouse and I have an engineer friend coming to assist. I will make specific note of your comments to try to keep from causing bigger problems, if there is any fear or hesitation from my engineer friend than I will see if the Trotec rep might be kind enough to bring an exchange in a couple weeks and see if that does the trick.

START
First, there are three things the laser needs to fire. It needs the correct DC voltage, I believe in this case, 40.3V. It also needs the "Enable" signal. This is typically connected to the interlock circuit on the machine. The actual circuit on the laser is Pin 3 being grounded to either pin 7 or 8. Third, it needs a PWM signal to tell it to fire, and at what power level to fire at.

So, that said, you could actually fire the laser by powering it with 40.3 volts, taking a RJ45 cable, tying pins 3 and 8 together, and sending a 0-5 volt PWM signal to it, pin 1 being DC+ and pin 6 as the return. The 0-5 relates to 0-100% power.


One thing that is raising a flag here is that you said you checked all the optics. Where are you determining that the laser is not firing? Have you actually checked the beam directly from the tube, or are you looking after the lens on the work surface?


It is possible the laser is firing, but the beam is out of alignment, and not hitting the lens.

END


I have checked all of the optics and everything is perfect and aligned, I can at least test ensure that part is right with the laser on 100% power.

[Kev Williams]

Question: How does Trotec drive the red light? I ask because, IF Trotec does this similar to my LS-900 (and my BIL's LS-800), then I have another suggestion...

Here's how mine works, best I can draw up in Corel, I'll try to explain ;)

there's a "block" connected to the front of the laser,
in the block is a mirror that swivels 45°, swiveling is done via a
plunger type relay, that via an arm somewhere, will move
the mirror. This 'block' also contains a switch that de-activates the
laser if the LED is on. Hopefully my drawings help explain...

First is LED-ON main beam OFF... here the mirror is blocking the
main beam, which should be off via the relay switch, and the
red LED is on, using the mirror to aim it to all the other
main mirrors...
484826

This shows LED-OFF and main beam ON, the relay has moved the
mirror out of the way, LED is OFF via the relay switch, and the
main beam is now ON, hitting the mirrors as normal...
484825

WHAT I HAD HAPPEN many years ago and just remembered, is that one day the relay wasn't 'clacking' like it normally does, and the laser wouldn't fire... After digging into the block, I found that the mirror had come un-glued from it's plate! Took awhile to figure that out, and not much room to work but I was able to superglue the mirror back in place without having to remove the block, and it's been fine ever since!

So I'm wondering if Trotec does this a similar way? My GCC's setup (Basically same Synrad tube, only 35w v 40w) is the LED is mounted in a way where the LED hits a separate 1st mirror from the main beam's first mirror, allowing both beams to use the mirrors at the same time, which actually pretty cool.

so my questions NOW are, does your machine have a mirror that could block the main beam if something weird would happen? My relay is basically another interlock, like the door interlock switches, wondering if yours has another interlock separate from the door switch interlocks?

I realize most of these issues wouldn't result in a 50% fire, but a goofy mirror could possibly be to blame?

[Chase Williams]

Thought I would give a quick update, Sorry for the dramatic delay, things have been very busy. I finally got a minute to mess with the speedy 400 again (We still haven’t gotten it functional yet). I am sad to report that after realigning everything and getting it calibrated that there are still problems. I am a 80/20 between saying it is a bug in the software (or more likely the INI file) and it being a bad tube. Here is my case for bad software: The laser functions as it should with certain settings (100p 20s, and some others), then when it comes to 100p 40s it will not fire, its hard to understand why the speed settings would effect the laser firing, if anything I could understand power settings potentially causing an issue via pulse width modulation but that should be unaffected in speed settings. Additionally, it’s not as if the laser is just dying, it works exactly as it should on certain settings both before and after it malfunctions with other settings. Attached is a video that shows the problem. Let me know your thoughts and if you have and ideas and/or agree that there might be a bug in the software or INI file.

Video: https://sharpmediallc.com/trotec.MOV
INI File: https://sharpmediallc.com/INI

[Mike Null]

I don't think you can compare the Trotec ceramic tube to
coherent or Synrad as they are a different technology. I am inclined to agree with Trotec. The only time I had to have a tube rebuilt it was a
coherent and I sent it to Photovac in Ohio. It was expensive but came back better than new. Photovac will not accept Iradian tubes for rebuilding. I don't know all the reasons but there seems to be some difference in the process and they felt they could not warrant their work.

Evergreen has had good recommendations so I'm not suggesting they are less than competent.

[Chase Williams]

I spent about an hour and a half on the phone yesterday and another hour fifteen today with a tech that I have worked with previously and know is competent. We did a lot of testing and did not find a 100% conclusive answer however, we have moreorless ruled out the motherboard, as the proper voltage signals are coming through on it. We assessed the tickle power as that excites the laser prior to firing, yada yada yada. Where we landed is that it is isolated to either a power supply or the tube... and much more likely the tube. I got a good education on tube recharging/exchanges (at least iRadion tubes). So apparently Trotec owns a portion of iRadion, which makes sense, and when an iRadion tube gets recharged they actually go into electronics of the laser tube and program stuff in at each recharge. iRadion is the only company that can program the laser tube electronics upon recharge and nobody else can. The tech was unclear if that modification upon recharging really makes a difference in the function or not plus he was unsure of the full scope of what they program in upon recharge but he was confident that they program stuff into the tube. So that is interesting. Additionally he mentioned that one of the major laser tube recharge company's mentioned many times on this forum used to recharge for Universal (Trotec bought Universal) and that they used a bench test to test tubes and that when they were installed in machines they got a significantly different result, to the point to where Trotec/Universal sent out a Universal machine to this recharging company and they struggled to recharge tubes above 50-60w on the machines (not bench). I can also say that the same company as I have talked to them, said they recharged for Trotec and while its technically true, they only recharged for Universal machines and not Trotec machines, yet passed it off as if they were contracted by Trotec for Trotecs (I find this to be deceptive practices). I am questioning the following as my tube, while recharged by a different company than what Trotec contracted in the previous sentence 1.) As previously noted there has been issue between what happens at the bench and what happens in a machine and I am pretty confident mine was tested at the bench and I dont think another Speedy 400 machine was present to test on. 2.) Nobody but iRadion could reprogram the electronics at the tube for the recharge. This may explain why there seems to be a lot of failure in recharging iRadions amongst 3rd parties.

Short of learning about the programming of the laser electronics upon recharge today, I am pretty confident that co2 lasers haven't really had any improvements to the firing mechanism in decades. The improvements are elsewhere such as the tube material (metal, ceramic), I'm sure there have been changes in the gas mixture, but the firing mechanism to my knowledge hasn't changed and is consistent amongst all co2 lasers I've been exposed to. To my understanding lasers use tickle power to keep the tube excited and electrical current to make the laser fire, pulse width modulation is how the turn the laser on and off so quick. I am not sure on the newest lasers if they use a digital signal vs pulse width modulation (which essentially makes an analog signal extremely fast), but I believe the iRadion 156f, which is what I have is still in the most current machines. The Synrad we have does this though an RF line and its own power supply the iRadion does it though a complicated RJ-45 connection with power supplies Trotec choose, but its the same process just via different connectors. I think its fair to compare Synrad and Coherent with iRadion, unless there is critical programming that needs to be done by iRadion at time of recharge.

As for final diagnosis of my machine, all roads lead to the laser tube or significantly less likely a power supply. I have already put a multimeter on the power supplies and everything was perfect, however I did it at idle and it was mentioned to try it under load, that should happen tonight*. Additionally, we turned the test pulse up to 100% as it was not firing on the settings that I had previously had working and again no fire, but I could hear fans varying RPMs in a struggling manor. The tech explained that is usually an indication of a bad tube and that something is causing it to be more power hungry, which would make Kev's Post 15 fit or even if that wasn't it again point to the tube.


I think the multimeter test of the power supplies under load is probably a bit of a reach but its a lot cheaper fix then a $3200 tube exchange, if there are findings. I suspect that the tube is the culprit of these issues. I will test the power supplies and write back. Assuming the power supplies are normal, I expect to be spending $3200 tomorrow. :mad:

[Bill George]

I would have thought testing the power supply under load would have been one of the first things to do. Since there is more to recharging the tube than just a re-gas but complete Proprietary control electronics inside to be checked and adjusted, I would have trusted Trotec to give you the right answer.

[Mike Null]

Chase
I believe Trotec purchased 2 or more Universal distributors but not Universal company. Certainly, I could be wrong, but the ULS history page makes no reference to it. My Trotec rep is one who came aboard as a result of the Trotec purchase of the Texas ULS distributor.

[Chase Williams]

So I got the new tube from Trotec today and laser problem solved. The tube from evergreen was lucky to burn masking tape (what I use to calibrate the mirrors) at 15% test pulse, the new one doesn’t struggle at all at 5%. Even when trying to hit a mug on the rotary that our 60w can do at 100p 20s (cleanly), with the same setting on the Evergreen tube it couldn’t vaporize the powder coat, just melt it. It seems that the tube just wasn’t recharged right. Various power setting including 100p and 50s worked without flaw. I’m very happy it’s functioning finally.

I am not sure if there was a fluke on evergreen or what but I’ll be reaching out to get my money back, as I wasted a lot of time and money on something they “checked” and I resent to be “checked” again. Hopefully they are honorable about the situation, I’ll post with the results.