Internet advice

[Jack Frederick]

I live in a third world country, meaning E of I-5 in CA. We currently have AT&T for our ISP and they guarantee all the way up to, but not over 3mbps. I am fixin to get the Starlink system. Some in the area have done so and report great results. My problem is that the house is surrounded by two 4+’ dia blk Walnuts, a 125’ tall Sequoia and a 100’ Doug Fir, so the house will not be a good location for the dish. The top of my shop is the best location. Starlink provides a a modem with the system, but as I understand it they limit the length of the Cat 5 cable from the dish to said modem. My plan is to locate the modem in the shop. I will need to run a hard line from the router to the house router. I have an unused underground conduit available which I intend to use. I am going to require about 200’ of line from the shop to the house router. What type cable is best? Starlink uses Cat 5a. Would it be necessary to upgrade to a better grade of cable, and what would that be?

[Malcolm McLeod]

I live in a third world country, meaning E of I-5 in CA. We currently have AT&T for our ISP and they guarantee all the way up to, but not over 3mbps. I am fixin to get the Starlink system. Some in the area have done so and report great results. My problem is that the house is surrounded by two 4+’ dia blk Walnuts, a 125’ tall Sequoia and a 100’ Doug Fir, so the house will not be a good location for the dish. The top of my shop is the best location. Starlink provides a a modem with the system, but as I understand it they limit the length of the Cat 5 cable from the dish to said modem. My plan is to locate the modem in the shop. I will need to run a hard line from the router to the house router. I have an unused underground conduit available which I intend to use. I am going to require about 200’ of line from the shop to the house router. What type cable is best? Starlink uses Cat 5a. Would it be necessary to upgrade to a better grade of cable, and what would that be?

I am not the best IT guru, but I would lean toward future-proofing - - and probably run Cat7 cable from the shop to house. It will cost a bit more, but give you gigabit capability between the 2 routers. Your next upgrade would probably be the routers - making sure they have one or more gigabit ports - if not already so equipped. As you add devices to your 'intra-net' (sub-net), they can take advantage of the higher speeds from (your) device to device. But I have no idea if you need or want this high-speed capability.

Plain 'old' Cat5 will easily support your 3mbps connection, and copper is good for 300'.

[Jim Becker]

You can buy pre-terminated, direct burial rated Cat 5E and Cat 6 cables that are just fine for this application. Just pick a length that is at least what you need for the distance between the Starlink gear and your router in the house including the conduit run. You can coil any extra at either end. Do not exceed 100 meters/300 feet, however, as that is the limit for Ethernet over copper.

I don't agree with the extra expense for something like Cat7 which is barely a "baby" in the marketplace at this point. Cat 5E supports Gigabit connections up to 100 meters/300 feet already. I'd do fiber instead if I wanted that kind of future consideration to go well beyond gigabit. I'm actually doing the the decision dance around using fiber or copper for the line to my new shop building that goes up later in the year. I'll likely stick with Cat6 copper however, because it doesn't come with the extra termination expense for transceivers to transition between fiber and copper.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... fiber instead ...

I considered suggesting fiber, but as you allude to, terminations exceed the average IT-civilian's DIY capability. I land a lot of Ethernet cables, and for fiber I call the pros.

[Brian Elfert]

Cat 7 is a category of Ethernet which is not really an industry standard. Even good old cat 5e supports gigabit. I recommend cat 6a cable which will support 10 gigabit. Actually, I would really recommend fiber if you can do it. No issues with a lightning strike with fiber. You can get pre-terminated fiber.

I doubt the cheap Chinese cat 7/8 Ethernet cables all over Amazon really meet those standards. Most people are not even aware that cat 8 is really two standards. One for 25 gigabit and one for 40 gigabit. The 40 gigabit cables don't even have the same RJ45 connectors.

[Jim Becker]

I considered suggesting fiber, but as you allude to, terminations exceed the average IT-civilian's DIY capability. I land a lot of Ethernet cables, and for fiber I call the pros.
It can actually be "plug and play", but the cost for the pre terminated fiber (including being sure connector types are matched across the board) and the cost of the transceivers would be pretty hard to justify for most consumers. Being an IT/Telecom guy, I might consider it just because it's interesting (and I'm on a fiber fed 1 gig symmetrical Internet service that could go higher if I wanted to pay for it in what is likely the near future), but even I can't honestly justify it if I'm being honest.

[Alan Lightstone]

It can actually be "plug and play", but the cost for the pre terminated fiber (including being sure connector types are matched across the board) and the cost of the transceivers would be pretty hard to justify for most consumers. Being an IT/Telecom guy, I might consider it just because it's interesting (and I'm on a fiber fed 1 gig symmetrical Internet service that could go higher if I wanted to pay for it in what is likely the near future), but even I can't honestly justify it if I'm being honest.

Never really looked into fiber, Jim. Not even available here until this year, and SWMBO would kill me if she had to change her e-mail address.

Out of curiosity, what kind of ballpark figures are you talking about for pre-terminated fiber cable and transceivers?

[Kev Williams]

for what it's worth--

I recently got tired of the wireless reception in my garage shop. What I did for a fix was I bought a 75' long flat Cat6 ethernet cable, which is connected to a 4-port hub, which is connected to my main Linksys EA8500 router via a 25' ethernet cable. From the hub the new cable runs run up and across the basement ceiling and into my garage-- I have an old but still working Netgear WNDR4300 router that I connected the new ethernet cable to, then connected the 2 garage computers to the Netgear router with 15' ethernet cables. I really didn't think it would work well or at all due to the long cable runs but it works great, MUCH better than the spotty wireless ever did...

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
I don't agree with the extra expense for something like Cat7 which is barely a "baby" in the marketplace at this point. ...


Cat 7 is a category of Ethernet which is not really an industry standard. Even good old cat 5e supports gigabit. ...

I am not a pro in the IT space (I 'live' in the L2, just wink at the L3 thru a firewall, and can't spell L4), so I won't die on a Cat7 hill. It was/is the only standard I was aware of that supported 10Gbps - - and I believe it was ratified as a standard in 2002-ish(?). My IT guy down the hall says don't use 5e for 1 gigabit, go to 6; and 6e for 10 gigabit - - YMMV. (Ignoring the Cat8 mystery.)

After 2 minutes of Giggling, I rescind my recommendation for Cat7 on the simple fact that it might be hard to find; so Cat6e for me. Industry certainly seems to have shunned 7.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... the spotty wireless ...

Sounds like you have a solution, but when faced with a similar aggravation, The Boss bought a mesh network for our house. Problem. Solved.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Cat 5 , cat 5e and/or cat 6 - all have a maximum length of 328 feet.

[John K Jordan]

Cat 5 , cat 5e and/or cat 6 - all have a maximum length of 328 feet.

I have a nearly 300’ underground run of direct burial Cat6 cable in conduit from the gigabit cable modem in my house to my shop. Works well.

[Jim Becker]

Never really looked into fiber, Jim. Not even available here until this year, and SWMBO would kill me if she had to change her e-mail address.

Out of curiosity, what kind of ballpark figures are you talking about for pre-terminated fiber cable and transceivers?

For the first thing, you'd need a provider that offers Fiber based Internet service. It's available in some areas; not available in most and because of the cost of deployment, it's unlikely to become ubiquitous despite the fact that it's the only (current) technology that can reliably provide very high speed and reliability. Rather, major carriers are more interested in home Internet based on fixed 5G wireless, including those that already have a major footprint with fiber, such as Verizon and ATT. (Frontier has the fiber they bought from Verizon...not sure how they are still in business financially, however) As to the email...it's never a good idea to use ISP provided email addresses. They generally are not portable (hence, your concern) and that's not a good thing as technology and...offers/opportunities...come along. Gmail, Outlook dot com, iCloud, etc, are a lot more flexible over time as they don't care what network is being used to access them from a contractual standpoint.

Pre-terminated fiber and transceivers are offered on Amazon and other places. It's been awhile since I actually looked at the cost. Again, if anyone is contemplating that, it's important to get the correct format of fiber and consistent connector types for a "system" end to end.

[Tom M King]

Cat 5 and 6 tools aren't really that expensive, and easy to use. I've never had a bad connection with Klein tools, or their ends. I keep boxes of bulk cable, and a toolbox with the tools in it. If you get double shielded Cat5 cable, the ends are different, but that's the only thing you need to watch out for. I'm sure there are plenty of youtube how-to videos, and it's Really easy.

[Jim Becker]

True, Tom. Folks still need to learn how to terminate with the minimum disruption of the twisting...that may require practice...but it's doable by "normal humans" if they do things carefully. That said, as the standards progress, it does get harder and harder for "mere mortals" to do terminations and remain within the standard simply because things get stricter and stricter in those specifications. Getting gigabit working reliably is "relatively" easy under this premise. Folks eventually embracing 5, 10 and 40 gige...they need to have their, um....you know what...together if they plan on doing their own cable termination.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have a nearly 300’ underground run of direct burial Cat6 cable in conduit from the gigabit cable modem in my house to my shop. Works well.John - I stand corrected. Cat 5e and Cat 6 break the 100 meter(300 feet) restriction.

[Alex Zeller]

Download the Starlink app for your phone (hopefully you have a smart phone). With it you can see what trees will be a problem. Start there because running a cable isn't going to matter if your signal gets blocked. You may have to go up on the roof where the antenna will be mounted. It's roughly a 45 degree cone from where the antenna will be mounted. The cable supplied isn't a cat 5 cable, it's their own specific cable. You can buy an adapter that has an ethernet connector on it but it took months for me to get mine.

How far is your shop from your house? Can you just use the WiFi signal? You'll loose speed the further the WiFi has to travel. I get anywhere between 180Mb/s down to 70Mb/s download and about 10 to 20 upload with Starlink. I have one tree that's slightly blocking the antenna so when it moves to that position in the summer I loose internet for about 15 minutes. You also need to be handy as there's no phone number to call, just email support.

[Michael Schuch]

When the phone company finally upgraded my service from 6Mbps to 12 Mbps I received a new modem with a 1Gb interface. This caused all sorts of errors between the new modem and my firewall because I installed a Cat 5 cable (Cat 5e hadn't been speced yet when I ran the cable) about 20 years ago. I had to remove the cat 5 cable and put in one capable of higher speeds. I went with the following direct burial cat 8 cable. I went with a cable with molded on RJ 45 connector ends so I wouldn't have to terminate the ends in jacks myself and loose some of its speed mojo. The cable isn't buried but run along the outside of my house. The direct burial jacket should hold up well even with sun exposure.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WPYQ89R/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I paid $60 for 100' and a 200' cable is only $80. This seemed like a very fair price to me for a well built cable that should last the next 20 years.

[Jim Becker]

John - I stand corrected. Cat 5e and Cat 6 break the 100 meter(300 feet) restriction.
While you "can" run longer than 100 meters/328 ft and often get away with it, that's outside of the Ethernet specification.

[Rich Engelhardt]

While you "can" run longer than 100 meters/328 ft and often get away with it, that's outside of the Ethernet specification.I thought so...
John, I retract my retraction!

The Ethernet frame sizes have a minimum of 64 bytes to 1518 bytes.
The 100 meter restriction is based on those frame sizes.
100 meters is the longest run of cable that allows the Ethernet collision detection to function.

[Jim Becker]

One of the reasons that some folks get away with pushing the distance a little is just how good the cable we use today is for rejecting interference, etc. But it will always be a best practice to stay within the specifications for sure.

[Curt Harms]

I considered suggesting fiber, but as you allude to, terminations exceed the average IT-civilian's DIY capability. I land a lot of Ethernet cables, and for fiber I call the pros.

I did a little research into fiber for someone who might need a data connection greater than 100 meters away. This is what I learned. A couple alternatives were directional wifi antennas designed for exterior use as long as they had line of sight between the devices year round (no leaves). The second possibility was multimode fiber. Media converters - ethernet -> fiber -> ethernet can be found fairly inexpensively if they're in conditioned spaces, operating temps from around freezing to 100*+. Media converters that function in lower and higher temps are available but they're quite a bit more $. As far as fiber optic termination the best advice for most of us would be buy the cable already terminated. Given that multimode fiber works out to around 3600 feet (gigabit speed), order it long enough. Single mode works for miles. There are different connectors so make sure the connectors on the cable match the connectors on the hardware. The people I was researching this for didn't go ahead with their project AFAIK so I don't know how it would have turned out.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I did a little research into fiber ….
We run hundreds of miles of single-mode, mostly overhead, but some underground, and it lands in a fiber patch panel at our respective facilities. I rely on the big brain guys to hang & terminate this; when they talk polishing, I fall asleep:o.

From the patch panel to a Stratix switch, we use pre-terminated fiber to the respective transceivers.

We originally tried 2 flavors of Ethernet radios (Cambium & Tropos, IIRC - and they DO require line-of-sight), but as our facilities count and integration has progressed, inter-facility communication has evolved a requirement to be bulletproof. Fiber makes it so. Expensive. But bulletproof. …So far.:cool:

If automation at a well pad loses comms to automation at a tank battery, all of the wells are shut in as a safety. And that drives up the pump price of gas. Bulletproof is good.

*****
ETA - Stratix 5700 switches are good for -40C to 60C, so great for desert environment. Or unconditioned shop. Just FYI.

[Curt Harms]

As to the email...it's never a good idea to use ISP provided email addresses. They generally are not portable (hence, your concern) and that's not a good thing as technology and...offers/opportunities...come along. Gmail, Outlook dot com, iCloud, etc, are a lot more flexible over time as they don't care what network is being used to access them from a contractual standpoint.

Pre-terminated fiber and transceivers are offered on Amazon and other places. It's been awhile since I actually looked at the cost. Again, if anyone is contemplating that, it's important to get the correct format of fiber and consistent connector types for a "system" end to end.

I'll echo Jim on the email. There are several reliable free email providers not tied to any ISP. I went one step further and got Ooma VoIP phone service. SWMBO doesn't want to hear about cell phone only plus we'd like 911 service to work. It seems like regional 911 service here works with Ooma. $7.95/month and will plug into any home router.

Speaking of email. We had Verizon email addresses. Verizon bought AOL a while back (since sold it) and transitioned Verizon email to AOL but kept the @verizon.net address. SWMBO had trouble with her Verizon email address, she couldn't log in. We called AOL tech support, even paid $5.95/mo. for 'enhanced support'. They had us try what we already tried then wanted to remote into 'her PC'. She only had Linux installed and they only support Windows. I hooked an old laptop up that had Windows installed. They installed their remote software, tried a few things and pronounced it unfixable. Okay fine, we got her a 3rd party email address, Thunderbird had saved all the email and addresses she cared about. I got an email from AOL support, saying he/she had received a support request for SWMBOs account -- 10 MONTHS after we gave up on AOL. :rolleyes: I thanked the nice person and said we had it fixed.

[Curt Harms]

We run hundreds of miles of single-mode, mostly overhead, but some underground, and it lands in a fiber patch panel at our respective facilities. I rely on the big brain guys to hang & terminate this; when they talk polishing, I fall asleep:o.


When I was down the internet/fiber rabbit hole I watched a number of youtube videos on the subject. As with most things in cyberworld some seemed pretty good - often produced by major players - and some were pretty 'homemade'.

[Jack Frederick]

I received the kit from Starlink. Surprisingly as a last ditch effort to avoid the underground wire I’ve discussed previously I took one more shot at the house roof and found a location right where the old direct tv dish was located. I removed the dish and put the Starlink long wall mount on that frame. I now have to trim out the cable once we decide where the SL modem will go. Installation and start-up on this could not have been easier and I offer that as the dimmest of the dim in the data world. It is like a new world. I show the speed test with the AT&T system and the new Starlink.

[Alan Lightstone]

Still not jaw dropping speeds, but boy what an improvement over what AT&T was providing. I'd love to here how the Starlink performs long-term (any weather interruptions like with my DirecTV, speed, etc...)

Great that you got a workable solution. Nice job.

[John K Jordan]

… I'd love to here how the Starlink performs long-term (any weather interruptions like with my DirecTV, speed, etc...)


I read of one unexpected problem - when mounted low to the ground cats liked to get comfy on the heated dishes in cold weather. Could that affect the performance? 😁

[Ronald Blue]

I read of one unexpected problem - when mounted low to the ground cats liked to get comfy on the heated dishes in cold weather. Could that affect the performance? 

So are you saying it's not totally PURRRfected yet John?

[John K Jordan]

So are you saying it's not totally PURRRfected yet John?

The cats apparently like relaxing in them so much I expect some entrepreneur to sell dummy heated starlink dishes to cat lovers.

[Alex Zeller]

It would be funny to watch because the antenna moves. Sooner or later of the cat falls asleep kitty will get dumped off. I think the new rectangle dishes only turn on the heat when needed where as the older round ones were on all the time.

[Alex Zeller]

I received the kit from Starlink. Surprisingly as a last ditch effort to avoid the underground wire I’ve discussed previously I took one more shot at the house roof and found a location right where the old direct tv dish was located. I removed the dish and put the Starlink long wall mount on that frame. I now have to trim out the cable once we decide where the SL modem will go. Installation and start-up on this could not have been easier and I offer that as the dimmest of the dim in the data world. It is like a new world. I show the speed test with the AT&T system and the new Starlink.

It'll go up and down but on average that's around what I get. I'm watching TV through a Firestick right now and ran a speed test at the same time and got this just a few minutes ago.
483963
This is what I get with Verizon wireless 4G
483964

[Jim Becker]

The slower upload might be frustrating for content creators out there in the hinterlands, but that's a very respectable download speed for content consumers which the majority of Internet users are.

[John K Jordan]

The slower upload might be frustrating for content creators out there in the hinterlands, but that's a very respectable download speed for content consumers which the majority of Internet users are.

Yikes, call me spoiled rotten. I had 100 Mbs download for years with Comcast cable and then upgraded to gigabit service. Now I usually see about 950 Mbs download in the shop (over the long underground cat6), considerably slower upload.

My son switched recently to at&t fiber and gets about 400 Mbs both download and upload, for less money than his old, much slower wired connection. I wonder if there will eventually be much more fiber across the country.

[Alex Zeller]

Anything over 100 Mbs is good when you don't have a hard line. Even DSL isn't much faster than Starlink. It's the lag of Starlink that is the big difference. Much better than Hughesnet but not fiber optic fast.

[Jim Becker]

Yikes, call me spoiled rotten. I had 100 Mbs download for years with Comcast cable and then upgraded to gigabit service. Now I usually see about 950 Mbs download in the shop (over the long underground cat6), considerably slower upload.

My son switched recently to at&t fiber and gets about 400 Mbs both download and upload, for less money than his old, much slower wired connection. I wonder if there will eventually be much more fiber across the country.

950 is the physical limit of a gigabit Ethernet port. :) I have gigabit service from VZ on fiber...symmetrical so uploads are not constrained like they are on cable and sat based Internet services. But again, most folks don't do a ton of uploading, so not having it isn't noticeable.

[John K Jordan]

Anything over 100 Mbs is good when you don't have a hard line. Even DSL isn't much faster than Starlink. It's the lag of Starlink that is the big difference. Much better than Hughesnet but not fiber optic fast.

I used Hughes satellite when we moved here in '04. Slower than slow, but I had no choice, working from home, no DSL available, nothing, what is fiber? Comcast said I was too far from the road to get cable. The fact was their system was so bad the cable wouldn't have worked for TV or internet. They finally upgraded their hardware and sent out a crew to run cable underground in conduit maybe 400' or so to a pedestal about 100' from the house (I run coax in conduit from there). They used a huge cable that appears to have about 90 volts on it, I was told it was the same feed they used for subdivisions. Signal is strong. They didn't charge me anything.

I have friends in similar situations and Comcast has so far refused to run cable a few hundred feet from the road. They are using a cell hotspot for internet.

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

[QUOTE=Alex Zeller;3207685 Even DSL isn't much faster than Starlink..[/QUOTE]

DSL technologies..even the best versions on very short distances...can't come close to these numbers for download.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Our current DSL internet at the farm is slow. I just ran a speed test and got 2.21 mbps download and .76 up. I've signed up for fiber-optic at the new house which is supposed to be 50 each way, and am looking forward to that. Here it takes up to an hour to upload a minute of video, though sometimes less. I find it hard to imagine the speeds you are all talking about, and what the user experience would be like.

[Jim Becker]

Oh, you're going to love that fiber connection Zachary! I've been on fiber for about ten years now. "Yuge"

[Alex Zeller]

I used Hughes satellite when we moved here in '04. Slower than slow, but I had no choice, working from home, no DSL available, nothing, what is fiber? Comcast said I was too far from the road to get cable. The fact was their system was so bad the cable wouldn't have worked for TV or internet. They finally upgraded their hardware and sent out a crew to run cable underground in conduit maybe 400' or so to a pedestal about 100' from the house (I run coax in conduit from there). They used a huge cable that appears to have about 90 volts on it, I was told it was the same feed they used for subdivisions. Signal is strong. They didn't charge me anything.

I have friends in similar situations and Comcast has so far refused to run cable a few hundred feet from the road. They are using a cell hotspot for internet.

JKJ

For the first 5 years of living here Hughesnet was the only option. The only cell service was a smaller company that got bought out by AT&T (in a bigger deal) but their service was using the same tech that Verizon used so AT&T sold their towers to Verizon. Not long after a company using Verizon's 4G service offered internet with reasonable limits before switching to throttling. But after a couple years Verizon cut them off. By then I had ditched Hughesnet. I have a feeling if Verizon offers true 5G service around me it could be faster than Starlink but it will need to be true unlimited.

The DSL and cable internet around here is very bad. People are always complaining. There is fiber optic cable on the poles around here but best I can tell it's not being used.

[Jim Becker]

Alex, the fiber is most likely very much in use...for backhaul between cellular base stations, "phone company" wiring centers/central office, cable provider nodes and other things. Fiber based Internet would likely install an additional instance of fiber plant because believe it or not, they have the cable custom manufactured with taps exactly located along the run so that connections to consumers can be dropped to properties from those taps with pre-terminated fiber cables. They literally map the route as they engineer the install.

Hopefully, your area will benefit from the available increased funding from recent legislation...not having quality high speed Internet access is a major disadvantage to folks living in an area for work and education for sure, not to mention the fun stuff.

[Curt Harms]

Perhaps the FCC's position on municipal broadband systems will change. The former chairman Ajit Pai was not helpful - to say the least - when communities wanted to establish their own systems. Pai could be fairly characterized as being in the pocket of 'big telecom', he was a former Associate General Counsel for Verizon among other positions in the telecom industry. Under his leadership the FCC opposed community broadband efforts. Big companies e.g. Comcast Verizon et al were opposed to community systems (no surprise there) but they would only wire the dense (profitable) areas and anyone not living in one of those dense areas was out of luck. It seems to me that the Rural Electric Cooperative Association might provide a model for community broadband.

[Alex Zeller]

Alex, the fiber is most likely very much in use...for backhaul between cellular base stations, "phone company" wiring centers/central office, cable provider nodes and other things. Fiber based Internet would likely install an additional instance of fiber plant because believe it or not, they have the cable custom manufactured with taps exactly located along the run so that connections to consumers can be dropped to properties from those taps with pre-terminated fiber cables. They literally map the route as they engineer the install.

Hopefully, your area will benefit from the available increased funding from recent legislation...not having quality high speed Internet access is a major disadvantage to folks living in an area for work and education for sure, not to mention the fun stuff.

It could be used but it's heading up a state highway in a very rural part that has no cell phone coverage for 15 to 20 miles. There's no cable TV or internet service out that way other than a school.

[Jim Becker]

A lot of fiber on the right of ways isn't owned by the local "phone" company or cable company or wireless company but is still used for backhaul, "long distance" and Internet backbone services. Unless it's a tapped line as I described, it's really not usable for residential Internet service.