400 cope cuts on a router table

[Mark e Kessler]

Clearly this is a job for a shaper but has anyone done a-lot of copes (like 400) on a router table? I have a job and it’s a one time thing for a friend to make at least 100 interior solid panel shutters in Red oak, they will be 1” thick and painted. And the panel is raised on both sides so that means at least 800 passes for the raised panel - now that I am typing it seems totally silly to do this on a router table setup but thought I would still ask…

The shutters are approximately 7” wide by 42” and forgot to mention above they will need an extended tenon, pia on a router table so i would do a loose tenon using a Pantorouter or Multirouter (which will also be a pia, 800 slot mortises)
I would make a pneumatic coping jig and would get a small power feeder for the stick (about 1k lnft) and the long edge of the panel.
I have a widebelt so i would make them thicker as i am not expecting a precision fit off a router (at least in these quantities)

I have some experience with shapers and have owned them but it’s been a long time and I don’t really want a shaper because I don’t have the room, tooling is expensive to make it useful and i would really use it much after this.

Thoughts? Feel free to call me crazy my feelings won’t get hurt, besides I have been becoming unhinged for years….

Thanks, Mark

[Patrick Kane]

I dont think the idea is crazy, and the router table should work just fine; however, this is a ton of work. That is probably 40 hours of work by the time you make a coping jig, mount the feeder, and process the material. My main concern or cautionary advice towards the router is you might burn your motor on this job. This is why so many routers fail with guys running CNCs, because they arent designed to run nonstop for 4+ hours.

I dont run my shaper often(its part of a saw/shaper), but its a nice tool to have now and then. I dont know that my jessem router table fence could handle a feeder's pressure. I dont think this job necessitates the purchase of a $5,000+ shaper, but i would definitely do a few quick searches to see if you can find a used 3-5hp delta/powermatic/grizzly nearby that is affordable. You dont need a huge machine for this job, and you might be able to pick up a used machine with a feeder for $1,000. PITA to go pick up a machine and move it only to potentially sell it a month later, but i do think a medium duty shaper will save you hours of labor compared to a router table.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Keep the heat down and keep as much sawdust as you can out of the router.

My main concern is that you'll have the tooling to do the job from start to finish.

Things have improved somewhat, but, at the end of the day, there's not much out there but Triton when it comes to 3.X HP routers.

[Tom M King]

Look on the Windows page of my website to see how I build these. I think it's broken down there in pictures. It gets 100% of the chips, and makes a clean pass.

The website is old, and has accumulated a bunch of formatting errors, plus the software it was built with hasn't been supported for several years, but I think most of the pictures are still there. Scroll down on the Windows page.

The PVC pipe is the air intact to be safer for fingers, and not allow chips to get thrown out. I made well over 400 copes on that one job, plus many other passes on similar ones. Notice the router still looks clean, like new, after years of use. THe "top" is phenolic bowling alley topper.

www.HistoricHousePreservation.com (http://www.HistoricHousePreservation.com)

[Curt Harms]

In addition to router durability, I don't know that router bits will do that much without sharpening/replacement. Re extended tenons, Freud makes an adjustable rail and stile bit set that will cut extended tenons but you'd have to find alternate means to create adequate mortise depth.

[Richard Hutchings]

Mark, what exactly do you mean "copes (like 400) on a router table?"? I think of sawing when I hear the word cope. Not that I'll have any insight for you but I'd like to know what your talking about.

[Warren Lake]

Lots of nice work there Tom. Even more impressed you doing it on the machinery you used to do it.

[Jared Sankovich]

Mark, what exactly do you mean "copes (like 400) on a router table?"? I think of sawing when I hear the word cope. Not that I'll have any insight for you but I'd like to know what your talking about.



The cope of cope and stick joinery, aka scribe if you are British.

I'd do it on a shaper, but if you don't have one it doesn't seem any worse than a kitchens worth of doors. Some people build cabinet doors with a RT.

[Richard Hutchings]

Thank you.

[Greg Quenneville]

Before I had a shaper I built a router table for my house construction. Since it is a period house and I made all the doors, shutters, panelling etc I cut 600+ cope & stick joints on it. No sled, just a square piece of scrap to back up each piece. Pine, MDF and western red cedar.

I used bit sets from Infinity and touched them up once or twice with a diamond card set. Triton TRA001 router in a commercial top

It gets old fast, but so would the shaper. Do them in batches, have excellent dust extraction above and below the table. The MDF dust caused problems with the router eventually before I increased the dust removal through the fence.

My shaper has a sliding table and air clamps. I wouldn’t be too relaxed hand feeding end cuts through a shaper without those things. The router table only feels safer. After a long day I managed to cope the end of a finger. Production work like you contemplate leads to fatigue and inattention, so that’s something else to consider.

Greg

[Mark e Kessler]

Thanks everyone for the replies, responses are pretty much in line with what i was thinking so good to know i am not totally nuts. (Unless we are all nuts? :))

I think i might just get a shaper, honestly the time is more important than the money - this job will pay for it and then some. Plus i think in the end not only will the work go faster it will be more accurate even further speeding up the process down the line.

I have noticed that with the full DRO on my k940 that my work is going a bit faster because there are no discrepancies in the parts even when I have to go back and remake a part.

Patrick, sometimes i think I should have gone with a saw/shaper but i was thinking about the hassle of going back and forth as it would be my only saw. I did (and still) am thinking about a 1kish used shaper but honestly if i am going to buy one i will probably look for one with a tilting arbor and sliding table. I think if i get lucky one might pop up on the used market in the next 2 months for around 5k, if i need to buy new probably looking at the mini max at like at 12k, Sam Blasco said he has one coming in Nov/Dec. Really there are quite a few scm t130’s which is a pretty solid shaper (thats one of the ones i had) for under 4k but its on the big side, fixed spindle and no sliding table

Rich, I was thinking the same with the tooling. I was thinking i would need to buy two sets just to be sure and I think Milwaukee makes a 3.5hp as well

Tom, that some really nice looking work. Looks like i could do it with a router if i was motivated enough, the other thing I didn’t think of is that i am thinking I wouldn’t be able to do full passes on the raised panel, thinking at least 2 passes that would be 1600 passes!

Curt, i was thinking the same thing and even if I bought 2 sets would they match up mid run, i am sur they would be close enough but wouldn’t want any surprises. I have seen that set, Amana also makes one, if i went that route i think i would cut the bulk of the tenon on the saw then finish up on the router table.

Richard, what Jared said…

Greg, this answers a few questions i had, thanks. I would have plenty of dust collection i also think that would help cool the motor as well, yes the “production” part of it is concerning, I haven’t done a job this big since I had my business. I will probably adapt my pneumatic clamps on my saw if i get a shaper but if i end up doing it with a router table i will have to probably make something different, the clamps on the saw are a little bit overkill for that

[Phillip Mitchell]

I would (buy and) use a shaper, and don’t think I could ever go back to a router for something like this or much else but I have been corrupted.

I have also been casually looking for a (2nd) shaper (this one larger and with tilting spindle) and can send you links of some that I come across.

There is a little, older Minimax T3 with sliding table (no tilt?) in NY on Woodweb for ~$1500 and a tilting T110 with feeder and extra spindles in PA for $3k just as a starting point. I saw a barely used, late model minimax T50 sliding and tilt for sale here a few months back for around $5-6k, iirc and I think it was in DC/MD. Not sure I have seen many models that have sliding table and tilt outside of some of the minimax units like a T50...aside from newer Martins that are typically much larger, have the end-mounted sliding tenoning carriages and tables and are quite a bit out of my price range.

[Tom M King]

Sounds like a good excuse to buy a shaper. I'm sure a router won't do a finished cut on raised panels in one pass, unless you hog material off on a table saw, which is more passes. You will probably find other uses for a shaper in the future.

Woodwork is only a small fraction of the things I do on these old houses, and I set up on the job to do everything, so a shaper is not worth having to move one around for me.

[Mark e Kessler]

I would (buy and) use a shaper, and don’t think I could ever go back to a router for something like this or much else but I have been corrupted.

I have also been casually looking for a (2nd) shaper (this one larger and with tilting spindle) and can send you links of some that I come across.

There is a little, older Minimax T3 with sliding table (no tilt?) in NY on Woodweb for ~$1500 and a tilting T110 with feeder and extra spindles in PA for $3k just as a starting point. I saw a barely used, late model minimax T50 sliding and tilt for sale here a few months back for around $5-6k, iirc and I think it was in DC/MD. Not sure I have seen many models that have sliding table and tilt outside of some of the minimax units like a T50...aside from newer Martins that are typically much larger, have the end-mounted sliding tenoning carriages and tables and are quite a bit out of my price range.

Felders have the slide and tilt but after my experience with the company I would prefer to not buy a Felder and at some point will unload all of my existing and replace it. the other important thing for me is having a good fence, a lot of those older MM fences don't have fine adjustment, pin locating or counters on them. I kinda came to the conclusion that i will need to spend min 5-12k if i want a more advanced fence, sliding table and tilting arbor.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Felders have the slide and tilt but after my experience with the company I would prefer to not buy a Felder and at some point will unload all of my existing and replace it. the other important thing for me is having a good fence, a lot of those older MM fences don't have fine adjustment, pin locating or counters on them. I kinda came to the conclusion that i will need to spend min 5-12k if i want a more advanced fence, sliding table and tilting arbor.

Ah yes, I always forget about Felder because I never consider them as an option for my needs but it seems they have sliding/tilting in a package. I specifically look for used machines pre ~2000 to avoid the headache of controls that are dependent on integrated electronics and most of Felder is generally newer, electronically controlled, out of my price range, and doesn’t seem as heavy duty as what I’m looking for. I’m looking for something more like an older tilting SCM T160, old Bauerle / Martin level of machine, so we’re in 2 different eras / levels of refinement.

You’re probably about right on your budgeting for what you’re talking about. Don’t think you’d regret having that class of shaper at your disposal. What models fit those criteria and are on the short list?

[Jared Sankovich]

Felders have the slide and tilt but after my experience with the company I would prefer to not buy a Felder and at some point will unload all of my existing and replace it. the other important thing for me is having a good fence, a lot of those older MM fences don't have fine adjustment, pin locating or counters on them. I kinda came to the conclusion that i will need to spend min 5-12k if i want a more advanced fence, sliding table and tilting arbor.

Pin located fences and counter/s seem relatively rare (other than ordering new euro machines). I can't say I've ever felt not having either was lacking, but to be fair I've not used a machine with them either. I'd think something between a 110 and 130 class machine would fit your general requirements.

[Mark e Kessler]

Ah yes, I always forget about Felder because I never consider them as an option for my needs but it seems they have sliding/tilting in a package. I specifically look for used machines pre ~2000 to avoid the headache of controls that are dependent on integrated electronics and most of Felder is generally newer, electronically controlled, out of my price range, and doesn’t seem as heavy duty as what I’m looking for. I’m looking for something more like an older tilting SCM T160, old Bauerle / Martin level of machine, so we’re in 2 different eras / levels of refinement.

You’re probably about right on your budgeting for what you’re talking about. Don’t think you’d regret having that class of shaper at your disposal. What models fit those criteria and are on the short list?

I don’t have an issue with newer electronics, pretty easy to diagnose and repair (but thats because i work in an electrical test lab and have a lot at my disposal) plus they are pretty reliable these days not like the pre2k stuff

As far as new MM tw 55es is the only one on my short list.

[Mark e Kessler]

Pin located fences and counter/s seem relatively rare (other than ordering new euro machines). I can't say I've ever felt not having either was lacking, but to be fair I've not used a machine with them either. I'd think something between a 110 and 130 class machine would fit your general requirements.


i could be over thinking the pin and counter fence but they couldn’t hurt. Guess the one thing i am not sure of is do i really need a sliding table, if not it opens up a lot. My main thing is if i am going to get one i want it to be as flexible and easy setting as possible

[Jared Sankovich]

i could be over thinking the pin and counter fence but they couldn’t hurt. Guess the one thing i am not sure of is do i really need a sliding table, if not it opens up a lot. My main thing is if i am going to get one i want it to be as flexible and easy setting as possible

2 of my shapers have sliding tables. I Swapped a tilt slider for a tilt non slider (upgraded capacity) and don't miss the sliding table at all. I use a pneumatic sled for coping even on the sliders. If I was doing passage door sized copes or long integral tenons that may be different.

[Phillip Mitchell]

My takeaways and conversations from folks who do larger tenon work (Joe Calhoun, Brent Stanley and a few others) is that the side / flush sliding tables and pneumatic coping sleds are good for cabinetry sized parts but become outmatch for passage door and up sized tenon work. I have been advised that it’s more preferable to have a bolt on tenoning table (SCM, Panhans, etc) or move up to the end mounted sliding tenoning tables with outrigger, etc which is a much bigger and more expensive machine.

Being in a place of wanting a larger shaper that is capable of passage / entry door tenon sized work, I’m on the hunt for a larger, tilting shaper with fixed table and intending to use a mix of pneumatic style coping sled for smaller work and sourcing a used bolt on tenoning table that can come on and off for the larger tenoning work.

This all makes sense in theory and seems to make for a very versatile setup with a feeder mounted in a relatively small footprint compared to the huge tenoning shapers with outriggers on the end. I have not personally proven the theory yet but am moving in that direction.

[Mark e Kessler]

My takeaways and conversations from folks who do larger tenon work (Joe Calhoun, Brent Stanley and a few others) is that the side / flush sliding tables and pneumatic coping sleds are good for cabinetry sized parts but become outmatch for passage door and up sized tenon work. I have been advised that it’s more preferable to have a bolt on tenoning table (SCM, Panhans, etc) or move up to the end mounted sliding tenoning tables with outrigger, etc which is a much bigger and more expensive machine.

Being in a place of wanting a larger shaper that is capable of passage / entry door tenon sized work, I’m on the hunt for a larger, tilting shaper with fixed table and intending to use a mix of pneumatic style coping sled for smaller work and sourcing a used bolt on tenoning table that can come on and off for the larger tenoning work.

This all makes sense in theory and seems to make for a very versatile setup with a feeder mounted in a relatively small footprint compared to the huge tenoning shapers with outriggers on the end. I have not personally proven the theory yet but am moving in that direction.

i think maybe no need for the sliding table without outrigger, I don’t plan on doing large doors - but I wasn’t planning on building a 100 + shutters either.
i just want to buy solid the first time, all of my equipment is paid for and try to buy quality (don’t we all…) I don’t depend on any of my side work for income most of it just gets invested in the market but the plan is to retire in my early 60’s and have the equipment to make side money (ie cash) to supplement SS (if there is any) and 401k/hsa…

[Rich Engelhardt]

Rich, I was thinking the same with the tooling. I was thinking i would need to buy two sets just to be sure and I think Milwaukee makes a 3.5hp as wellMark - Yes, they do! I have a Milwaukee 5625. It's a beast for sure.
They don't seem to be around all that much though. Like just about everything though.

I only mention Triton because I hear so much good about them.

I'll probably end up with a Triton myself next year.


I don't have a medium to heavy duty plunge router.

[Don Stephan]

Surprised no one has asked, is it something you might rather pass along to a production outfit? Granted it is for a friend, but quite a few negatives have been raised.

[Mark e Kessler]

Surprised no one has asked, is it something you might rather pass along to a production outfit? Granted it is for a friend, but quite a few negatives have been raised.

Glad you brought that up, I will be more than likely sub the milling out it’s about 500 bft and that will reduce the time and a lot of sweet. I don’t want to sub all of it out as my friend wants me to do it and me wants the 💰💰💰. And i guess i am not sure of the “quite a few negatives” that have been mentioned other than potentially burned out routers, as a matter of fact I am more confident now that I could do it with routers as several here said they did large quantities this way. But you are right, should go to a full time outfit as I haven’t done this much “production” type WW since I had my business but like Tom said, sounds like an excuse to buy a shaper. Clearly a shaper is the way to go, if i was 18-19 year old self like when I started I would have done it with routers….

[Bob Falk]

If these shutters are going to see any weather and you want to use oak, I would suggest white oak. Red oak is not very durable.

[Mark e Kessler]

If these shutters are going to see any weather and you want to use oak, I would suggest white oak. Red oak is not very durable.

Thanks Bob, should have mentioned these are interior shutters 1” thick and will be painted. They want them to be the same wood as some existing shutters that they have. The windows are about 45” w x 91” tall

[Tom M King]

That sounds about the same size as the exterior shutters I built for this house. These were the largest I'd ever built. This is a museum house, and the shutters stay closed when the house is not open.

[Warren Lake]

Youve posted that door before and really like the character all the inconsistences there add to it. Nice look compared to the clinical look off machines

[Tom M King]

What I do is really forgery of old house parts-trying to fool as many as possible that what they're looking at is really old.

[Warren Lake]

you cant fool a fool so you didnt fool me. The look is excellent. Ive seen one kitchen company think Kennebec do that. They do nice work. I had to fix up a kitchen years ago and not replace it. I hand painted it and I liked the brush mark look. When I did the facias on two homes I brushed them so it was clear it was wood and not aluminum or metal clinical look.