Another "which one?" question

[David Kenagy]

I want to make my own clock dials, using 0.04" sheet brass. These dials are just under 7" diameter.

The attached image is close to what I want, and was made by etching with ferric chloride on a photo-resist. That method is inconsistent, with almost a 90% failure rate. But I can get fine detail as well as wider etched areas to accept the dark wax that's used to mark the numerals. I'm not going to pass these clocks off as 18th C., but I want buyers to consider them as a competitor for those antiques. In the attachment there is a larger square plate with the numbers and minute ring, as well as a round piece that was etched all the way through. I know that a round CNC bit can't make the sharp joints seen in that overlaid piece, but if I go the CNC route, the machine would have to do well at the main dial. Price point: at $2,000 I'd wonder why I hadn't done this long ago. At $5,000 I'd be satisfied, as long as it does everything I need. Over $6,000 I couldn't justify it...pay somebody else to do it.

The Nomad 3 (by Carbide 3d) says the right things, but a seller's claims won't really tell me whether I'll get precision equal or greater than what I already have. I like their policy of selling the full software without a 'subscription'.

So I don't know:
- Can any CNC give me very sharp, very tiny script (see the name, printed near the center of the overlaid piece, and the stylized "K" symbols between the Roman Numerals).
- Will a machine that's excellent for these dials still be excellent with a 2' x 2' bed (or greater) for the day when I go to CNC wood projects? I can see a CNC for roughing out floral 'carvings' (etc) in clocks or furniture.

What would you folks buy to do this work?
482190

[Jim Becker]

Sharp corners are indeed possible to engrave on metal like that with a CNC using V-Carve techniques and appropriate tooling. You can absolutely engrave what you show with CNC. (You mention 3D printing which is a completely different thing...it's additive rather than subtractive)

The biggest challenge with sheets of non-ferrous metal is workholding...a good vacuum system or use of superglue/tape or double sided tape come into play to keep things flat which is required for the engraving. For production work, vacuum is the way to go, IMHO. Cutting metal does require a bit of housekeeping consideration as you can't use the kind of dust collection that one can use for wood products due to fire hazard. And metal shavings are "not fun" to clean up.

For working metal like this, you'll get the best results from a machine that's equipped with a spindle that can be directly managed by the CNC machine controller software. Spindles are friendly for tooling as they generally have a lot more options for collets, especially when using very small tooling for the kind of work you want to do. Router motors are screaming loud and often do not provide as much speed control as spindles...and whatever speed control you have with a router motor is manual. Sometimes an incremental change in RPM provides better results in cut quality as well as for chip load which is what keeps the tooling from getting hot and dulling quickly.

My recommendation would be to shop for your second machine first and make your investment closer to your upper limits. You'll have the best chance of hitting your goal that way. You don't need a "big" machine for the work you propose, but you will be happier if you have a quality, well engineered tool to work with.

[David Kenagy]

I edited the "3d printer" term...as you recognized, I meant CNC. It will now make more sense to the next reader.

Before I started thinking about using CNC on brass dials, I'd been thinking about the Shapeoko Pro. I'll use your feedback in re-looking at these tables with bigger beds than the Nomad. Their cost is lower than my limit...which aspect does a more expensive machine overcome?

I'd enjoy reading what companies folks prefer, especially with features that made them prefer theirs. A web search only bombarded me with advertisements. Videos by users almost all love whatever machine they bought.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, I'm one of those folks happy with the machine he bought, a OneFinity Journeyman. 1F even makes a CNC specific for milling metal, though any of their models will mill brass and aluminum. I milled some thin brass on mine last week w/o issue, other than chips everywhere as Jim mentioned. I used the Makita trim router that's on my machine and had no issues, but you can easily add a spindle to any 1F and still stay under your budget. The noise issue everyone talks about with a router is a non-issue once you turn on the dust collection system, unless you are lucky enough to have that located outside your shop. At 10 - 15K rpm the Makita is not very loud and is completely lost when I turn on the dust collection and the bit hits wood. My friend has an Axiom with spindle. In all honesty, it's just as loud when it's running. Get a spindle if you want, but not for the lower noise during actual use.

You can use most any software you want. I purchased V-Carve Pro with the machine and it does everything I need, and way more than I am yet capable of. Including the software and spindle, should you feel it necessary, you would be under your budget. I was at $4200 all in. The 16 x 16" Machinist model lists at just under $2K, plus software, spindle, etc.

John

[Tony Leonard]

I have done a small amount of sheet brass on my Avid Standard 2448 machine with a Bosch 1617 router. (I would go for a spindle if I could afford it - especially for metal). It worked ok. I had to go through a learning curve for holding the work, tool, speeds, feeds, etc. I've done some brass hardware and a few odd assorted items like sundial gnomons. Looking at your dial, my concern would be those sharp inside corners. I don't think that would be easy to do. I have tried using "v-carving" with a v shaped tool, but the sides of the cut are sloped. Before you make the investment, I would try and find someone to do some test pieces for you to make sure you are happy with what the machine can do for you. I usually just work around the limitations, but I'm not trying to do work at the level you are. Engraving is a breeze -you can get very sharp lines spinning or dragging. I use cheap engraving bits on brass and aluminum. I have been very pleased with the results. The tool angle is very steep, so you can cut deep enough and the sides not look angled.

This is a gnomon I did. I think the final cut was done with a 1/16 bit. (The marble was engraved with an ebay engraving bit!)
482235



I made the brass hardware for this. I had a heck of a time figuring it out. I wanted a beveled edge. Long story, but I finally got there. Material choice is important too. You probably already know that.

482236

I have been thrilled with my Avid machine. As mentioned, I have a Bosch 1617 router on it. I have used it for all sorts of materials, brass, wood, marble (engraving), glass (engraving), circuit boards, cardboard, vinyl, stencil material, felt, cork, etc. I use V-Carve for G code and Mach 4 to run the machine. Its one of those things that, once you have it, you figure out tons of uses. I am just finishing up a set of chairs and I used the machine to make half a dozen templates (router templates, shape templates, etc.) Very quick and easy for things like that. Even just making measuring sticks to help layout and such.

I don't have any good pics of engraving like your dial. If I wasn't in the middle of chair making, I'd do some tests to show you. There is a gentleman on youtube who's name escapes me, but is Winston or Winton Moy - something like that. I believe he has done a bunch of work like this and I think he uses a smaller machine. His videos are very helpful.

Let us know what you pick. If you are still looking when I finish these chairs (in a few weeks), I'll try a few things. I believe I have some scraps I could play with. Oh, my machine is 24" x 48". I use half of that capacity 75% of the time. I sometimes regret buying a machine so big, but its there if I need it. So, a 2x2 might be plenty for wood parts later. The other thing to consider is accuracy, repeatability, consistency, etc. The smaller machines tend to not be quite as rigid. For roughing, that probably wouldn't matter. I can't really tell you exactly how a good my particular machine is, but it works fine for my work.



Tony

[David Buchhauser]

Have you considered laser etching as an option? I think you could get finer detail, but it would be etched and not engraved with a cutter. Just a thought.
David

[David Falkner]

I would second the OneFinity that John mentioned. A friend in the neighborhood has one and it's a lot more rigid than the Shark and others in this category. He's done some very nice work with his.

[eugene thomas]

cheap and cnc dont seem to go together.

[David Kenagy]

These suggestions are what I was hoping for. I'll start studying the websites for these makers.

I spoke with Carbide 3d today (makers of Nomad and Shapeoko). They said the tolerances for Nomad (8" x 8" capacity) are 0.003" and for Shapeoko (24" x 24" and up) are 0.005". The Nomad uses a spindle, and Shapeoko can upgrade to that.
It appears that blowing or vacuuming chips is important while cutting metals, and Nomad won't allow that (machine stops if the door opens). They also have a video to answer the question about minimum size for lettering (I'm not the first). They did a demo for tiny lettering in graphite, using bits as small as 0.17 mm. That tells me the tolerances are very good, but it's not brass; I can't use bits that small.

Seeing Tony's brass work is inspiring. I bet any hinge of any size will be possible.

[David Buchhauser]

It appears that blowing or vacuuming chips is important while cutting metals, and Nomad won't allow that (machine stops if the door opens).

Perhaps consider using a small dust shoe attached to a shop vac, or simply defeat the door switch.
David

[Jim Becker]

Perhaps consider using a small dust shoe attached to a shop vac,
Really not supposed to do that with metal cutting because of fire hazard. Remember, the chips are what takes the heat away from the material and tooling. But there are blower tips commonly used for machines cutting metal (as well as for cutting lubrication/cooling where required) that can keep the chips away from the cut lines. You can vacuum the stuff up after the fact with a shop vac once everything has certainly cooled, however.

[David Buchhauser]

Really not supposed to do that with metal cutting because of fire hazard. Remember, the chips are what takes the heat away from the material and tooling. But there are blower tips commonly used for machines cutting metal (as well as for cutting lubrication/cooling where required) that can keep the chips away from the cut lines. You can vacuum the stuff up after the fact with a shop vac once everything has certainly cooled, however.

I agree Jim - a mister could be another possibility. I seriously doubt the small chips from fine cutting brass would be much of an issue though. Opinions may very.
David

[Jim Becker]

I don't disagree that the risk from the brass isn't high...but I'm pretty anal about promoting best practices because there can be "that one time"...

[John TenEyck]

If you put a Dust Deputy in front of the shopvac and put some water in the bottom of it, the chips will get captured in that water.

For the work you are contemplating on thin brass sheet, this seems like a non-issue to me. Just my opinion.

John

[Bill George]

The problem with thin materials on any CNC is thin metal is very hard to hold securely. The one time the bit catches will tear it right off the table. Brass won't spark, that's why they use brass hammers in explosive areas.

[Ronald Blue]

I agree with Bill totally that holding down thin stock will be a dilemma. Obviously a vacuum hold down is going to fail on the wide open weave in the middle. As he said one catch and you will have a wadded up mess. Double sided tape might work. He's also correct that brass doesn't spark.

[Jim Becker]

The solution for vacuum with things that will have open areas is a custom fixture which is very common for production type work on small things. You really cannot use a vacuum table like you can for sheet goods, both because of the open areas and because of how vacuum actually works for hold down. Strange as it may seem, it uses gravity which has something like the equivalent of 14 lbs per square inch. (don't quote me on the number, please, as this comment is more about the concept) So with small objects, there's not very much surface area to hold something flat and contained. Focused vacuum with a fixture designed for the purpose tends to be better for this kind of vacuum clamping because it can concentrate. It even uses a different kind of vacuum source than you would for a vacuum table.

[David Kenagy]

"thin metal is very hard to hold securely"

Yes. I planned to include tabs that can be cut off with a scroll saw then filed into oblivion. Would 4 tabs on the outer circle and 4 more on the inner be sufficient? 1/16"?

I ordered some laser-cut blanks that had tabs of just 1/32", and it took 3-4 minutes of firm wiggling to weaken the first one enough to break. Scroll saw wouldn't work there because the kerf was too thin. Granted, there' no rotational force in a laser, but those tiny tabs were pretty strong.

[Jim Becker]

Tabs are fine for keeping parts from flying, but you have to be able to keep the brass on the CNC table securely and perfectly (and I do mean perfectly) flat. That's where the decisions come around using double stick tape, using tape/superglue, using vacuum, etc., comes from.

[John TenEyck]

With what little I've done with brass sheet, blue tape and superglue worked fine. I did leave tabs in some non-critical dimension places, too, just to be cautious.

John

[Alex Zeller]

If it was me, and I don't know if it would work without trying, is to get a sheet of 3/4" MDF (PVC would work if you want to use liquid cooling possibly) from the box store. Cut it 6" larger than the size of the brass you want to engrave. With CNC software you can design channels in it that will not line up with where your design will have the bit going. Make the channels at least 1/2" deep and not any wider than 1/2". Then drill a couple holes in the edge of the MDF for a pipe to slide in. Connect it to a vacuum pump and you'll have a hold down system. With 6" around the outside edge you can screw it down to the spoilboard. If you plan on doing multiples you could easily set up a way to align the brass to it and it to the CNC table. If needed the MDF could be doubled up by gluing two sheets together.

I would use a dust shoe without any dust collection and possibly an air nozzle to blow the chips away from the tooling. The shoe should keep the chips from going everywhere. If you're worried about hot metal you could use an ash vacuum.

I've never purposely milled metal on my 1F but I have hit the aluminum T tracks by mistake and it went right through it like butter. It didn't even make a different sound.

[David Kenagy]

I compared Avid, OneFinity and Carbide machines. I'll try to attach the spreadsheet and would very much appreciate corrections of the things I mis-understood. But here's a summary of what I think I learned:

Avid 4824 has a 2'x4' surface. There are a number of items you have to add, and there are 2-3 options for each. If you choose the least expensive options (including a router and NEMA 23 steppers), your cost is $7500. If you go to the highest options (with a spindle and NEMA 34 steppers), it's $10,700.

OneFinity X-50 has a 32x48" surface, and can add sections of 2' indefinitely. It can't accept a spindle, (router only). But it can add a laser. Software is V-Carve Pro. Lowest cost $3600, high end is $4500.

Carbide 3D has two models that define the middle- and high-cost choices. "Pro" and "HDM" have a 33x33" bed, and almost no additional costs. Pro uses a router and costs $2800. HDM uses a water-cooled spindle and costs $5400.

Tolerances for all of these are about 5 thou. OneFinity's machine costs $1000 less than Carbide's. My current "hard questions":
- is having a spindle worth $1000?
- can a laser be bolted to a CNC even if the manufacturer didn't do it?

[David Kenagy]

Trying again on that attachment.

[Tony Leonard]

Whew! Things have gone up! Yes, you can add a laser to most machines. Might do some research on a particular machine. There are a couple of folks that sell a laser in kit form for the AVID. I have considered getting one (~$700 last time I looked?). Still considering... My experience with using the Bosch 1617 has been very favorable. No issues. I did add an aftermarket collet. If I could afford one, I'd add it, but the router is sufficient for my work.

One other thing...don't forget to add in all the other stuff...tools, software, laptop for the machine(?), power strips, tables/bases, etc. etc. It adds up quickly! I think I almost doubled the machine cost buying all the other stuff.

Yes, cutting brass is messy. I don't like to do it much. I had tiny little brass pieces everywhere when cutting, not so much when engraving (had to move the laptop way out of range!). I use no coolant. For holding the sheets down, I use screws, tape, super glue, etc. Lots of good methods out there. For cutting out shapes, I do make sure it is attached to the spoil board very well. So, even after gluing, I add screws in corners and such. I did use tabs for most of my work. For the tantalus hardware, I used glue and no tabs because the sides are beveled.

I thought of something else I use my machine for a lot - layout sticks. Those little cheap engravers from eBay are great for marking up a piece with lines, points, crosshairs, etc. to use for layout. I also use those to engrave pertinent info on templates - dates, sizes, layout marks, centerlines, etc. Takes minutes and works great.

[ChrisA Edwards]

You can get a watercooled 2.2KW spindle for $400. I have the Huanyang 240V 2.2KW unit on my Onefinity. Love it.

As Alex said, I like the ability to not have to use a computer to actually process the gcode and run the CNC. My design computer is upstairs in a bedroom, my Onefinity is in an external garage. Once powered up, I can transfer files via WiFi to the Onefinity controller, and remote start/stop the CNC carving on the Controller from either my upstairs bedroom or with my laptop sitting in my family room.

I have a Nest camera, on the Onefinity, so when doing a long carve, I can see what the Onefinity is actually doing and also monitor the Controller, inside the house on my laptop.

Following on from Alex's vacuum method. In the MDF, I would probably pocket out a recess that the plate could sit into.

[David Kenagy]

At first I planned on double sided tape, but realized that even a small bow in the brass will affect depth of cut for fine lines. I can screw it down though the center, where a hole has to go for the clock hands. The corners are also available, because decorative cornices go on top.

As for this fine lines, I heard a suggestion for a laser (another layer of cost and complexity for a new user). I also read about ‘diamond dragging”. I gather that’s a non-rotating stick with a sharp diamond on the end. The clocks get a small bit of Edwardian script, where a very fine line would be better than an end mill. I assume the laser burns away a tiny bit of wood. On brass sheet, does it melt it? Vaporize it?

[John Lifer]

I would find someone local that has a fiber laser. While I wouldn't try cutting out shapes with it, Your numbers will come out WAY better. And a 175mm lens and a 50watt would be good fit.

[Jim Becker]

Keep in mind that laser add ons are fine for light engraving work, particularly on wood, but they are low powered and not really good for any kind of cutting other than paper, etc. You also have to deal with the smoke produced. Anyone wanting to do serious laser work is going to be better served by a dedicated machine...but that comes at a cost.

[John Stankus]

One idea for holding thin metal I saw that seems to make sense is from the Woodsmith CNC Base Camp. In episode 006, Chris Fitch talks about metal inlays. What he does is use liquid hide glue to secure the sheet metal to an MDF backer. After all the machining is done, he places the back and the metal sandwich in a bucket of warm water for 24 hrs releasing the metal part.

On my list to try. Just got the CNC almost assembled and will be making my first cuts this weekend.

John

[richard newman]

My experience:

I make banjos, and I use my machine to cut pearl and wood veneer inlays, cut the pockets, and then scratch guide lines for hand engraving. Also cut fret slots in fingerboards and profile them. I have a tiny Techno Davinci router, 10" x 12" work envelope. It's 25yr old machine they made for educational use, but built as heavily and with the same quality & weight German components as used in their much larger machines. 1605 ball screws, precision linear ways, cast aluminum gantry sides, etc. It's amazingly accurate, I'd guess within .001", probably because it's so small and well made, nowhere to flex or rack. I replaced the controller, using Gecko 540 and Mach3 now, with original steppers and power source, not very advanced, but works just fine for me.

I can cut out a complex shape inlay, and then cut the pocket with no clearance, then take succeeding cuts at .001" clearance intervals until it just squeezes in with no gaps. I use .012" end mills for tight points, it amazes me! I may some day get a larger machine, maybe 2' x 3', but I'd keep the Davinci for just this sort of precision work.

My take is that if you need to do small, precise work, a smaller machine is going to be better. The Davinci's turn up on ebay etc for $1500 or way less, and it cost me less than $500 to redo the controller. You could also go with Clearpath servos and a better controller and have a fast, accurate tank of a machine.

[richard newman]

One idea for holding thin metal I saw that seems to make sense is from the Woodsmith CNC Base Camp. In episode 006, Chris Fitch talks about metal inlays. What he does is use liquid hide glue to secure the sheet metal to an MDF backer. After all the machining is done, he places the back and the metal sandwich in a bucket of warm water for 24 hrs releasing the metal part.

On my list to try. Just got the CNC almost assembled and will be making my first cuts this weekend.

John

I do something similar. For pearl and metal, I glue my blanks to mdf with titebond regular. After cutting, I resaw away as much of the mdf as I dare, and soak what remains in water. Lets go in a few minutes, especially if the water is hot. For wood veneers, I use Duco cement, resaw the mdf away, and then douse with acetone and wrap in aluminum foil. Lets go quickly once again. I don't like to use double face tape if I'm going to cut into it, or for really small items. I like a rigid glue line, and for the small quantities I cut, it's no bother.

[Tony Leonard]

Keep in mind that laser add ons are fine for light engraving work, particularly on wood, but they are low powered and not really good for any kind of cutting other than paper, etc. You also have to deal with the smoke produced. Anyone wanting to do serious laser work is going to be better served by a dedicated machine...but that comes at a cost.

Actually, if you look, they are cutting much more than paper with "add-on" lasers! Cutting right through acrylic, etc. Not exactly low powered!

[Jim Becker]

Actually, if you look, they are cutting much more than paper with "add-on" lasers! Cutting right through acrylic, etc. Not exactly low powered!

There are some new 14w units on the market now, but they are still very limited in capability compared to a dedicated laser. The fume extraction challenge still remains. And never forget to wear the protective eyewear, either, with these low-power lasers.

[John TenEyck]

I compared Avid, OneFinity and Carbide machines. I'll try to attach the spreadsheet and would very much appreciate corrections of the things I mis-understood. But here's a summary of what I think I learned:

Avid 4824 has a 2'x4' surface. There are a number of items you have to add, and there are 2-3 options for each. If you choose the least expensive options (including a router and NEMA 23 steppers), your cost is $7500. If you go to the highest options (with a spindle and NEMA 34 steppers), it's $10,700.

OneFinity X-50 has a 32x48" surface, and can add sections of 2' indefinitely. It can't accept a spindle, (router only). But it can add a laser. Software is V-Carve Pro. Lowest cost $3600, high end is $4500.

Carbide 3D has two models that define the middle- and high-cost choices. "Pro" and "HDM" have a 33x33" bed, and almost no additional costs. Pro uses a router and costs $2800. HDM uses a water-cooled spindle and costs $5400.

Tolerances for all of these are about 5 thou. OneFinity's machine costs $1000 less than Carbide's. My current "hard questions":
- is having a spindle worth $1000?
- can a laser be bolted to a CNC even if the manufacturer didn't do it?


As mentioned by others, you can put a spindle on the 1F, either a 68? mm or an 80 mm. 1F sells the mount but not the spindle itself, giving you the freedom to use any brand you want. For correctness, the Journeyman has a 48 x 32 footprint. It's one of the few hobby level machines that has a 48" X axis. Also, I don't think you can extend the Y axis rails beyond the current 32" capacity unless something has changed and 1F hasn't put it on their website yet. You can use many different software packages with 1F, V-Carve Pro is only one option. That said, if you do use V-Carve Pro you can tile in the Y direction and mill parts of any length. I used that feature once so far, and it worked well.

I've been trying to find out what the accuracy/repeatability of the 1F is. No one on the users forum seems to know. I've seen numbers like 0.001 - 0.005". It has to be better than 0.005". I can make toolpath changes of 0.002 and measure the difference; not sure about 0.001" yet.

To your questions:

Is having a spindle worth $1000? Not yet for me. It may at some point but no time soon.
Can a laser be bolted to a CNC even if the manufacturer didn't do it? Yes, I think so, as long as there is a way to mount it.

John

[Alex Zeller]

I recently did an inlay using skate board veneer (can't find a picture of it ATM). It was football shaped serving platter with the Patriots logo and name. I got red, blue, and white dyed all the way through veneer for it with the tray made out of black walnut. Because it was veneer I couldn't do a V carve inlay. Instead what I did, using the free version of Fusion 360, was just cut a pocket into the tray and then with the veneer glued to some pine I cut out the inlay and then used by bandsaw to slice off the veneer from the pine. I used epoxy to glue it in place to make up for the slightly rough backside of the veneer from the bandsaw. The accuracy was a lot tighter than .005", maybe .001"?

If you aren't doing this to make money you can use Fusion 360 vs buying V Crave Pro. Fusion 360 allows you to use (I suspect V carve and others can do the same) use more than one bit. For the inlay what i did was hog out most of the wood with an 1/8" end mill leaving .004" of extra material and then used the "rest machining" option to remove only the material that the 1/8" end mill couldn't do and the .004" I left using a 1/32" end mill. A 1/32" end mill will not leave a perfectly sharp corner (which is why most people do a V carve inlay) but it's very close.

[David Kenagy]

For working metal like this, you'll get the best results from a machine that's equipped with a spindle that can be directly managed by the CNC machine controller software.

I've narrowed my choice to the OneFinity, which can mount a spindle, but they don't sell or make a recommendation for one. What companies should I look into?

[Jim Becker]

I've narrowed my choice to the OneFinity, which can mount a spindle, but they don't sell or make a recommendation for one. What companies should I look into?
I am not personally familiar with the spindle market, so hopefully, others can make suggestions. My Camaster came with an HSD spindle which is an Italian made, air cooled product. There are options that are more affordable for the more value priced CNC machines...some as low as a couple hundred dollars, but try to balance cost with quality and be sure the spindle uses standard "ER" collets as collets are "disposables" that occasionally need to be replaced. Like if you drop them on a concrete floor.

[Alex Zeller]

I bought an HY (Chinese) spindle from Amazon. I got a 2.2kw package with an HY VFD and a water pump. The water pump was worthless but the spindle and VFD have been great. I was planning on using a name brand water pump anyways (I think I got a Little Giant fountain pump). I was expecting it to be dustier that it is so I got the water cooled spindle. In hindsight it doesn't get that hot in my basement and with a dust shoe that accepts a 4" hose there's almost nothing so I probably would just get an air cooled spindle. I guess if you plan on doing 10 hour long projects water cooled with a water cooler might be worth it. I just use a 3 gallon bucket.

If you want to get a nicer spindle I've heard there's some German ones on the market that are very good. I just didn't want to invest the money until I was certain of what I wanted. As far as the Chinese spindles go you need to get a 2.2kw spindle if you want to use 1/2" shank bits (which I did). You'll want a surfacing bit to flatten the spoilboard. I bought a CMT one with inserts for about $75. It's almost 2 1/2" in diameter so it makes quick work of whatever I'm trying to flatten. I'll often just run the edges of rough cut boards through the jointer to glue up boards then put them onto the spoilboard and manually surface them VS using the jointer and planer.

The CMT bit has a 12mm shank which could be an issue for a router but for a spindle you can get collets of any size. I bought a half dozen balanced nuts for the spindle for cheap and collects for each size I use. The collet snap into the nut so having a set for each size is convenient. Since 12mm isn't used very often the collet and nut stay on the surfacing bit which i store in the plastic box the bit came in.

[Alex Zeller]

This is the spindle (https://www.amazon.com/Spindle-Kits%EF%BC%9A220V-4bearings-24000rpm-Factory/dp/B078J5CXP3?ref_=ast_sto_dp) I bought from Amazon. The tubing was too short for my setup. This is the water pump (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007BVKAQA/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). it's not a Little Giant, but a Danner that's made in the US.

[Jim Becker]

I bought an HY (Chinese) spindle from Amazon. I got a 2.2kw package with an HY VFD and a water pump. The water pump was worthless but the spindle and VFD have been great. I was planning on using a name brand water pump anyways (I think I got a Little Giant fountain pump). I was expecting it to be dustier that it is so I got the water cooled spindle. In hindsight it doesn't get that hot in my basement and with a dust shoe that accepts a 4" hose there's almost nothing so I probably would just get an air cooled spindle. I guess if you plan on doing 10 hour long projects water cooled with a water cooler might be worth it. I just use a 3 gallon bucket.

Water cooled spindles seem to be aimed more at the hobbyist machines. Air cooled appears to rule on the more industrial focused CNC setups. Both are just fine if used as designed, regardless of how long you run them.

[ChrisA Edwards]

I have the same spindle as Alex on my Onefinity. It's extremely quiet while spinning at 10K-18K rpm, nothing like any on my traditional Festool, Bosch pr PC wood routers.

I read that a lot of noise from a router is actually air moved by the fan in an air cooled router.

I did install drag chains for my X and Y axis, something the Onefinity does not come with, but was a relatively cheap and easy mod to do. The drag chains also carry the water tubing to and from the spindle.

I have a HD 5 gallon bucket with a small water pump that supplies the spindle and also acts as the return for the water. The water returning from the spindle, while running, rarely gets to 90F, so I don't provide any additional chill/cooling method to the water.

[Gary Campbell]

Guys...
FYI.. I have owned/sold dozens of Chinese spindles from .8kw (1hp) to 3.7kw (5hp). I have been very fortunate, or lets say for the most part my customers have been, in that there has only been 1 failure that I am aware of.

Chinese watercooled spindles got a bad rap for the most part due to cooling failures. One, because the pumps are cheap. And two, and much more prevalent, is that the customers used the stupid water buckets and then let them fill up with sawdust. The pump eventually plugs, overheating the spindle which then blows up. Use a closed system with a radiator and an anti corrosion additive (not antifreeze) and you may run for years.

Are they as good as the US or Italian made spindle units? Maybe not. But any customer (or CNC mfgr) that would select a hand held router, made for occasional use instead of the lowest quality spindle is simply making a mistake.

[Alex Zeller]

I used a plastic bucket that had chlorine tablets in it. The cover twists to lock itself onto the bucket. Both of the water lines go through bulkhead fittings on the bucket itself and the lid has a grommet for the power cord so nothing can get into the bucket. I also have a flow meter on the return line so I can see how much water is flowing. It also has a switch so if the flow gets too low it'll stop the CNC.

[David Buchhauser]

I used a plastic bucket that had chlorine tablets in it. The cover twists to lock itself onto the bucket. Both of the water lines go through bulkhead fittings on the bucket itself and the lid has a grommet for the power cord so nothing can get into the bucket. I also have a flow meter on the return line so I can see how much water is flowing. It also has a switch so if the flow gets too low it'll stop the CNC.

Same here - I use a sealed 5 gallon plastic bucket with hoses going thru grommets in top, flow indicator mounted up next to spindle, and a small amount of anti-freeze added to water to help inhibit any possible corrosion. My 4HP spindle was purchased on Ebay from a seller in Viet Nam. It takes BT30 too holders using ER style collets.

David

482927482928

[ChrisA Edwards]

Can you guys post a link to the flow meter please.

[John TenEyck]

Guys...
FYI.. I have owned/sold dozens of Chinese spindles from .8kw (1hp) to 3.7kw (5hp). I have been very fortunate, or lets say for the most part my customers have been, in that there has only been 1 failure that I am aware of.

Chinese watercooled spindles got a bad rap for the most part due to cooling failures. One, because the pumps are cheap. And two, and much more prevalent, is that the customers used the stupid water buckets and then let them fill up with sawdust. The pump eventually plugs, overheating the spindle which then blows up. Use a closed system with a radiator and an anti corrosion additive (not antifreeze) and you may run for years.

Are they as good as the US or Italian made spindle units? Maybe not. But any customer (or CNC mfgr) that would select a hand held router, made for occasional use instead of the lowest quality spindle is simply making a mistake.

Time will tell. I have about 4 months on my little Makita router so far, with many 4+ hour carves on it. Budgets are a reality for many hobby level users. I'm happy 1F offered the option of a mount for a router or a spindle. I saved at least $500 and greatly simplified getting up and running by going with a router. Doesn't seem like a mistake to me.

John

[David Buchhauser]

Chris - this is the one I am using. Purchased from Amazon several years ago. It is not really a flow meter, but does indicate that coolant is flowing thru the spindle.
David

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HQ8JUJU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

482939
(https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HQ8JUJU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

[ChrisA Edwards]

Thanks, that's exactly what i'm after.

[Alex Zeller]

I use a meter made by a company called Red Lion. They aren't cheap but they are industrial grade. They are two piece. The flow sensor, on my case, is down by the bucket out of sight. But it has an LED on it that is green when the flow is above where you set it, yellow if it's on the edge, and red when not. You can't see the impeller inside it. It has an output that goes to a panel mounted display. I just got the simple one but they have all sorts of styles including one that looks like a dial that has WiFi so it can send a signal so you know how much water is flowing. At some point I'll upgrade so I can watch the WiFi camera to make sure everything is working if I'm upstairs and I'll be able to see the water flow.

https://media.digikey.com/Photos/Red%20Lion%20Photos/MFG_PM500A0400800F00.jpg

[Jeff Ramsey]

I have cut sheet brass C360 on my Shapeoko XL with good results; both lubricated and non-lubricated. For flat bottoms, there are at times shadows that can be seen depending on the area of the flat. Chip build-up on cutters is your enemy with all things CNC, but especially with non-ferrous metals. If you've a CAD design for a clock face, you might want to reach out to someone at one of the forums to see if they'd cut you a test so you can check the quality before you take the CNC leap. Buy them end mills as a gift, pay them a nominal fee and ship them the sheet brass and design. Here's a Carbide 3D video done about cutting sheet brass on a Nomad:

#MaterialMonday on YouTube - Tutorials - Carbide 3D Community Site (https://community.carbide3d.com/t/materialmonday-on-youtube/13092)

Their forum is here, and you can post your questions there about cutting sheet brass and possibly find someone to cut you a sample, if you'd like to go that route.

Carbide 3D Community Site (https://community.carbide3d.com/)

[David Kenagy]

Thanks to a the many helpful replies here, I made the decision to buy a Onefinity “Journeyman”. Jim reminded me to think about more than the immediate project. John and David introduced me to the Onefinity. Avid was too expensive for my needs, and Carbide wasn’t quite large enough. There are other effective machines available, but “information overload” is a hazard.

Several commenters convinced me to attach a spindle, and a fellow on an ‘all-CNC” forum introduced me to a German company, Mechatron.

Now I’ve got 6-8 weeks to dedicate space and build a table. How much larger than a machine’s footprint should a satisfying table be?

[ChrisA Edwards]

The Onefinity Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/onefinitycnc/photos/p.406505730895571/406505730895571 is a great place for information and support. It's a very active group, like this forum, to get answer to techniques, software and hardware.

I bought the Onefinity QCW (Quick Change Wasteboard) fasten from above method, along with my Journeyman. This provides an Aluminum frame that the CNC sits on. The frame, itself, does not bolt to a table. I think the idea is to not introduce a twist or bow that would mirror the mounting surface.

I decided to make a sliding enclosure to minimize dust and noise. Dimensions are at the start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3PVCb5CsB0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3PVCb5CsB0

[David Kenagy]

That’s a very nicely engineered enclosure, and I see that you and I have the same hair-do.

My ceilings are 79” and I’m 73”. A door that opens down would work, but would block drawers (unless they’re placed on the side). A sectional system, similar to a garage door would fit, but the track would be a wrinkle. I particularly like the fact that both cabinet sections move.

I have no experience with aluminum, but wonder whether its use would reduce the required thickness of frames.

[Jim Becker]

Congrats on your decision, David! You'll enjoy adding CNC to your arsenal for sure!

[Alex Zeller]

I think you'll be happy with the OneFinity. The basic machine doesn't need to be upgraded to fix weaknesses of the design. At the same time you can do plenty of upgrades to make it fit to your workflow.

[John TenEyck]

Congrats on deciding on a Journeyman. I'm sure you'll be happy with it. If you plan to put an enclosure over it you should make the table at least 54" deep by 60"? wide. With no enclosure, 48" is deep enough. 72" is a good width, even wider if you want to mount a larger monitor or laptop on the table. Join the 1F users' group on FB. Lots of good information and helpful, knowledgeable people. https://www.facebook.com/groups/onefinitycnc/

1F machines do not have a frame so your table needs to be really rigid. There are several ways to go about it, but many opt to make a torsion box table top, as did I.

John

[Jim Becker]

Always be sure or have a plan that provides you the access you need for periodic maintenance, such as any greasing if required by the design/manufacturer. That means the ability to get to any and all sides required for said maintenance. This can affect table design if you are buying a benchtop machine.

[Bill George]

Since you need to vacuum up anyway, simpler just to put a dust shoe and vacuum on the router or spindle. Owned several CNC routers... never an enclosure as it really slows down access to change bits and monitor the process.

[Jim Becker]

Bill, some folks like to build enclosures for noise control. What I mentioned about maintenance access still applies, of course.

[Bill George]

I wonder how many are still installed after a year? I can't imagine trying to get something done with it in the way all the time.

[Alex Zeller]

I wonder how many are still installed after a year? I can't imagine trying to get something done with it in the way all the time.

Some of the hobbyist treat them more like an AR-15. Not so much as a tool to do a job but something they can customize and be proud of what they created.