Hammer A3-41 vs Minimax FS41 Dust Collection

[Aaron Inami]

Hello all. I'm looking at both of these models as a potential planer/jointer. My primary concern is about dust collection.

The information and pictures are somewhat limited here so I am looking for people who have experience working with both of these machines.

One of the problems I see with the Hammer is how the dust hood is engineered. It's incredibly hard to see how the dust hood fits down in the videos and pictures. However, it seems like a loose area dust hood. In several videos, you can see dust/chips just sitting in the hood before they flip it over for planing mode. There is always tons of sawdust all over the hood, cutter-head and planing bed. The Jay Bates video states that dust collection on this is not perfect.

When examining pictures/videos of the Minimax FS41, you do have two separate dust hoods for planing/jointing. However, it seems like the hoods are shaped to come down right on top or along side of the cutter head with a good front/back seal (engineered specifically for each purpose of jointing or planing). It seems to me that the Minimax would provide better suction/collection of this dust under operation. I have read some comments that the Minimax dust hood gets clogged with chips frequently. I actually think this is when you use straight knives on the cutter wheel. I do remember using a 15" planer back in the day where the dust port would just get clogged with 12" long shavings all the time. This was a major pain. I plan to use a helical cutter head, so I don't think I will have problems with long shavings. I believe that the long shavings may get clogged in ports if you don't have enough suction/CFM (i.e. the weight of the long shaving would be too much for limited CFM).

If you are running 3+ HP dust collection, it may not be a problem. However, I'm currently using a Jet 1100 dust collector. With a 5" hose, I think I will realistically get about 550 CFM at the machine.

Can anyone give there experiences with these two machines here? I understand that I do have limited CFM on my dust collection right now. Would it be better to go down to a 12" machine? (I know many regret the limited 12" size).

[Phil Gaudio]

I have the FS41e and the dust collection has never been an issue. Does the collector get 100% of the chips: no. But it gets enough of them that it only necessitates a minor brush-off of a few errant chips now and again.

[Erik Loza]

I’ve used/sold MANY of both. To answer your question, there is no real-world difference between those machines as far as dust extraction, especially with modern spiral cutterheads. The biggest limiting factor will be your dust collector. Hope this helps.

Erik

[Rod Wolfy]

I have the Hammer A3-41. I use a 20' corrugated 4" Rockler hose, which I attach to a dust deputy with a 5" connector, then it's attached to my Jet DC1200, which is mounted high on the wall. I put a 5 gallon bucket under the Vortex vein and a Wynn filter above. No issues with any dust collection at any of the machines. I think you're probably overthinking it. The chips on my Hammer don't come off as long strips, just little flakes, as the spiral cutterhead has like 60+ knives.

[Chris Parks]

Hello all. I'm looking at both of these models as a potential planer/jointer. My primary concern is about dust collection.

The information and pictures are somewhat limited here so I am looking for people who have experience working with both of these machines.

One of the problems I see with the Hammer is how the dust hood is engineered. It's incredibly hard to see how the dust hood fits down in the videos and pictures. However, it seems like a loose area dust hood. In several videos, you can see dust/chips just sitting in the hood before they flip it over for planing mode. There is always tons of sawdust all over the hood, cutter-head and planing bed. The Jay Bates video states that dust collection on this is not perfect.

When examining pictures/videos of the Minimax FS41, you do have two separate dust hoods for planing/jointing. However, it seems like the hoods are shaped to come down right on top or along side of the cutter head with a good front/back seal (engineered specifically for each purpose of jointing or planing). It seems to me that the Minimax would provide better suction/collection of this dust under operation. I have read some comments that the Minimax dust hood gets clogged with chips frequently. I actually think this is when you use straight knives on the cutter wheel. I do remember using a 15" planer back in the day where the dust port would just get clogged with 12" long shavings all the time. This was a major pain. I plan to use a helical cutter head, so I don't think I will have problems with long shavings. I believe that the long shavings may get clogged in ports if you don't have enough suction/CFM (i.e. the weight of the long shaving would be too much for limited CFM).

If you are running 3+ HP dust collection, it may not be a problem. However, I'm currently using a Jet 1100 dust collector. With a 5" hose, I think I will realistically get about 550 CFM at the machine.

Can anyone give there experiences with these two machines here? I understand that I do have limited CFM on my dust collection right now. Would it be better to go down to a 12" machine? (I know many regret the limited 12" size).

No matter how the machine is made if the DE is not up to the job it will leave chips behind so a good DE is the first problem to be addressed. My Clearvue never leaves any chips behind when I am using my A3 because it has a big airflow capacity and depending on your dust extractor you can have the same result. If the DE is not working efficiently on any machine the first question to be asked is how capable the DE is and the vast majority on Asian small machines are simply band aids to dust extraction and we won't even mention the unseen fine dust problem they create. My rule of thumb is if it doesn't have at least a 14" impeller you are fighting a losing battle.

[Mike Wilkins]

I don't think any dust extractor will get 100% of the chips produced, so I have learned to accept a small amount of missed chips. I have the Hammer A3-41 and running an older Delta single stage 1 1/2
horse collector. I think my collection is aided by having the jointer/planer machine closest to the DC with the shortest run of piping (flex hose). This machine is the biggest dust/chip generator in my shop so proximity to the DC is my solution.
My next big shop purchase will be a more powerful dust collector.

[Chris Parks]

I don't think any dust extractor will get 100% of the chips produced, so I have learned to accept a small amount of missed chips. I have the Hammer A3-41 and running an older Delta single stage 1 1/2
horse collector. I think my collection is aided by having the jointer/planer machine closest to the DC with the shortest run of piping (flex hose). This machine is the biggest dust/chip generator in my shop so proximity to the DC is my solution.
My next big shop purchase will be a more powerful dust collector.

Mine gets it all. I would not buy any DE with less than a 14" impeller but 15" is better and I would not buy a single phase machine as a 3 phase machine run through a VFD is a far more flexible and capable answer to the problem. A VFD is run from a single phase power point so anyone can use a 3 phase machine.

[Aaron Inami]

Thanks, all. It seems that I need to put a dust collector upgrade higher up on the priority list now. What are your thoughts on Clearvue vs Oneida? Initially, I like the Oneida V3000 for lower noise and position of the intake (works better for my shop).

(edit) all never mind. There is already tons of "oneida vs clearvue" discussions.

[Chris Parks]

Thanks, all. It seems that I need to put a dust collector upgrade higher up on the priority list now. What are your thoughts on Clearvue vs Oneida? Initially, I like the Oneida V3000 for lower noise and position of the intake (works better for my shop).

(edit) all never mind. There is already tons of "oneida vs clearvue" discussions.

Don't buy any less than a 15" impeller & forget horse power ratings... they mean damn all in the great big scheme of things.

A bit of food for thought about the advantages of 3 phase

Low current on start up
Unlimited starts per hour
Speed control
Kinder on the equipment due to soft start
Can be run at higher speeds than normal if needed

[Aaron Inami]

Chris - what VFD are you using for your clearvue? Does it have a remote control?

[Chris Parks]

Chris - what VFD are you using for your clearvue? Does it have a remote control?

I have a 10 year history selling maybe a hundred or more Powtran VFD's and have had maybe two or three failures over that time and 99.9% of Clearvues sold in Oz which is getting towards a 1000 units now are controlled by a Powtran VFD. The operating panel can be removed and placed at a convenient spot using a CAT 5 or 6 cable or a generic remote control can be used. I know I have a bit of a special relationship with Powtran but I ALWAYS get a return email within a few hours if I have a question. I will ask my contact if I can publish his contact details if you want to investigate further.

[Erik Loza]

Just my opinion, which anyone is free to accept or reject as they like: Don’t overthink the dust collection situation and just buy a 1-phase extractor. 5hp is awesome but 3hp is more than adequate for the average weekend warrior with a jointer/planer. I’ve sold eleventy-million J/P’s to garage woodworkers. The average budget cyclone is what 90% of those owners use and nobody complains, so long as they’re using 5” hose. If you really wanted to splurge on a dust collector, I would look at one of those Harvey units but there is really no need to go 3-phase for a hobby woodworking shop. Again, just my opinion.

Erik

[Thomas Crawford]

I'm running an A3-41 with an Oneida V3000 - it works great, really no issues. A V3000 is fine if you do a good job routing the piping, you should actually calculate the loss through the length and bends.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Eric. 5" hose to that 120mm port and a reasonable 3+ HP cyclone are more than adequate for these J/Ps. Yes, some material will get by and that's simply because of how the hoods have to be designed to actually fit around the cutterhead. When I first bought my J/P, I actually did have an older/smaller cyclone that wasn't up to the task of clearing chips from a wide machine like that, but after an upgrade, the only time things ever came to a standstill was when "I" plugged the cyclone by not paying attention to the bin.

Which reminds me...the smaller bin on my temporary DC is full...again.

[Chris Parks]

I agree with Eric. 5" hose to that 120mm port and a reasonable 3+ HP cyclone are more than adequate for these J/Ps.

Driving what size impeller? My whole point is a specified HP figure means zip, nothing, nada, it is the impeller size which defines how much air gets moved as long as the motor is reaching full speed. The whole WW community has been mislead and ripped off by the retail industry who quote HP as the significant sales point. I bet a lot of people would be surprised if they opened up different HP dust extractors and found the impeller is the same in different HP machines.

[Jim Becker]

I don't disagree, Chris. Folks who opt for the "mass market" machines are very much at risk relative to true performance and it's difficult, if not impossible to get fan curves for them. But in general, I do stand by my statement with the modification that the DC needs to be "well performing" and generate the real CFM necessary to evacuate the chips from the wider machine via the integral 120mm port. My first cyclone was not capable of that and I had to upgrade after I bought my J/P back in the mid-2000s. So I do understand this from experience.

[Erik Loza]

Chris, like Jim, I’m sure you’re correct but that being said, I believe the question the OP is really asking is, “What do I need to just get the job done?”. At least that is the concern I heard from pretty much every J/P owner. And I stand by my statement that your average 3hp cyclone with 5-inch hose (with as little flex run as possible) will do the job just fine. For example, I used to do the trade show circuit with a 12” J/P and bandsaw. We would buy some super-cheapo single-bagger at the beginning of ever show season and just throw it a dumpster by the end of the season, because it was literally falling apart by then. But, it didn’t do a bad job of dust collection in the meantime. Point being, “sure”, you could engineer a DC system to the n-th degree for a home hobby shop that only operates one piece of machinery at a time but I don’t think that’s the same need as, like you mentioned earlier, a large shop that is running multiple machines at the same time. In that case, I agree with you 100%. Hope I am explaining myself OK.

Erik

[Chris Parks]

Chris, like Jim, I’m sure you’re correct but that being said, I believe the question the OP is really asking is, “What do I need to just get the job done?”. At least that is the concern I heard from pretty much every J/P owner. And I stand by my statement that your average 3hp cyclone with 5-inch hose (with as little flex run as possible) will do the job just fine. For example, I used to do the trade show circuit with a 12” J/P and bandsaw. We would buy some super-cheapo single-bagger at the beginning of ever show season and just throw it a dumpster by the end of the season, because it was literally falling apart by then. But, it didn’t do a bad job of dust collection in the meantime. Point being, “sure”, you could engineer a DC system to the n-th degree for a home hobby shop that only operates one piece of machinery at a time but I don’t think that’s the same need as, like you mentioned earlier, a large shop that is running multiple machines at the same time. In that case, I agree with you 100%. Hope I am explaining myself OK.

Erik

No one least me is engineering anything and jn fact it amazes me when people start trying to do just that with dust extraction. Simply put HP means nothing and it is about time we started to specify dust extractors by impeller size. I am not going to get into debates on DE, use what you want but be aware of what makes a DE perform and what you should be looking for instead of wasting money as Jim did. Knowledge will always allow us to make informed decisions and just because we always did it that way does not mean it is the best way.

[Jim Becker]

Chris, if the "wasting money" thing references the need to upgrade, it's not exactly accurate to the situation I was faced with. My original Oneida 1.5hp cyclone was bought in the year 2000 before I even knew tools like J/Ps existed. I had a typical Jet 6" jointer and some brand of 12" portable planer at that point. Nobody was really discussing DC performance much, either. The J/P came along in about 2004. The shop also expanded to double the size and with other bigger tools. It was just a natural progression. That first cyclone is actually still in operation in a friend's shop...he's a 'Creeker, but rarely posts. The second one worked well...it was the original Gorilla before they turned yellow and it was a 2 hp with about double the actual airflow of the first one. If I had had a place to store it, I'd have it lined up for the new shop building, but I didn't, so it's now in a small commercial shop not far from here, also populated by another 'Creeker. I don't feel that I ever wasted any money "back then". Now over the years, I've learned a whole bunch more about the subject and again, I agree with you that "size matters", especially with more and more folks adopting tools that are more demanding to collect from. It's coincident that most often, impeller size provides a good indication of expected performance, but I personally would still be delighted to consult a fan curve because there are some technology things that are coming more into play around increased performance and also what I'll call "adaptable" performance because of how shops are changing to embrace things like CNC and other tech tools where you can't really depend solely on CFM.

[Aaron Inami]

Okay, so after 2-1/2 months, I finally have my answer to the first question in this thread. We know that the Minimax planer/jointers have separate dust collection hoods for the planer and the jointer function.

It is very interesting that I have found nothing on the Felder/Hammer equipment. Absolutely nobody talks in detail about how this "single hood" dust collector actually functions. The only thing they say and show is "just pull the hood up and over the top to do the planer dust collection". The pictures and videos don't show good detail and it actually looks like the dust hood is two sections and completely open (i.e. non-effective).

I was in a Felder showroom a couple days ago to pick up a different machine and was able to examine this dust hood closely. In actuality, the Felder/Hammer dust hood has a flap/baffle plate that moves. When in the down position, this flap completely closes the hood section for the planer and opens the hood section for the jointer. When you pull the hood up and over, the flap moves to close off the jointer hood input area and opens the planer hood section. Each section (jointer hood opening or planer hood opening) fits down onto the cutter wheel pretty closely. It's not 100% perfect because the flap does have some gaps on the edges where it moves inside the hood. The higher level Felder AD741/AD941 machines have dust hoods designed in exactly the same way.

As a comparison. I would say the Hammer/Felder "planer" dust hood is probably about 98% as effective as the Minimax dust hoods (because of the gaps along the edge of the baffle flap). When looking at the "jointer" dust hood, it may be possible that the Felder design is better because the hood is underneath the cutter head and pulls the dust that falls down from the cutter naturally due to gravity. The Minimax "jointer" hood is mounted right in front of the cutter head and could leave some dust to fall down below (depending on how good the dust collector is). The Minimax "jointer" dust hood has a smaller slit as well. Any dust that is not captured by the "jointer" dust hood falls down onto the planer dust hood (which is in the upside down position). I could see this dust falling onto the planer bed when you pull the dust hood up and over.

For me, it's good to know the exact details/differences.

[derek labian]

We know that the Minimax planer/jointers have separate dust collection hoods for the planer and the jointer function.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the hood configuration is the same on most of these dual j/p units. I have a FS41ES and it is a single hood, not a dual hood. The hood just adjusts based on the function. I looked at the Hammer/Felder options as well and they were the same/similar operation.

[Jim Becker]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the hood configuration is the same on most of these dual j/p units. I have a FS41ES and it is a single hood, not a dual hood. The hood just adjusts based on the function. I looked at the Hammer/Felder options as well and they were the same/similar operation.

My FS350 has a flip up hood for thicknessing, but the infeed table for jointing has its own hood mounted below. I move the hose when changing functions...the location is the same but it's a separate port for each.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Well I own a 2004 vintage MM FS41E, I know things have changed with the FS41E with the newer models, but my hood configuration is exactly as Jim described. I have a Oneida 2000 Pro 5 hp cyclone, about 95% of the chips wind up in the collector.

[derek labian]

My FS350 has a flip up hood for thicknessing, but the infeed table for jointing has its own hood mounted below. I move the hose when changing functions...the location is the same but it's a separate port for each.

Interesting. Looking more closely at the SCM site, it looks like the FS41E/ES share a single port, and the FS41C has two ports. The op didnt specify but must me talking about the FS41C?

[Jim Becker]

The Classic may very well retain the design that's been used for a long time. I've only seen one newer one up close at a friend's shop, but I never looked at the dust arrangement since it was only being used to flatten a 400mm+ wide chunk of wood prior to resawing.

[Aaron Inami]

I took a quick look. Yes, the FS41ES has a single dust hood with an "adapter hood" that pulls over for planer mode. However, all the lower models (FS41E, FS41C, FS30C) have two separate dust hoods.

The switchover for FS41E shows two separate dust hoods in this location of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-wBArkXOsU&t=326s

[Rod Sheridan]

Driving what size impeller? My whole point is a specified HP figure means zip, nothing, nada, it is the impeller size which defines how much air gets moved as long as the motor is reaching full speed. The whole WW community has been mislead and ripped off by the retail industry who quote HP as the significant sales point. I bet a lot of people would be surprised if they opened up different HP dust extractors and found the impeller is the same in different HP machines.

Yes, motor power isn’t very important, however fan performance is far more important than fan diameter.

My 1.5HP Oneida has a tapered, curved blade impeller and provides enough airflow for my A3 and B3.

Some cyclones use a straight blade impeller that seems made for chip handling, I have no idea why that impeller would be selected for a cyclone.

Regards, Rod

[mark mcfarlane]

FWIW, It is a challenge to mount a 5HP motor at ~9' above ground level for a large cyclone, particularly in a corner. Two strong men, two ladders, an awkward and really heavy lift that can be somewhat dangerous...

On the flip side, I do get about 99% chip collection using 8" and 6" pipe plus the last yard with flex hose on a MinMax CU300. Never had a clog on the J/P side. Tersa knives. Occasionally have to clean out thin rip leftovers on the saw side.

[William Chain]

A3-41 here with a 1.5 Hp Oneida mini gorilla dust collector connected by 5” flex hose. No issues with dust collection, works great. My only complaint is the relatively small drum in the mini gorilla but that’s just how it is.