Felder version of sawstop technology?

[Frederick Skelly]

I saw an ad for this in FWW and went looking for more info. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share, for those who might not be aware. Link (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/pcs)

The system allows you to quickly reset and get back to work.

Apparently it is ok for tge US market - Felder plans to show it off at IWF-Atlanta this year.

[Jim Becker]

They've had it for a bit, AFAIK, but only on one or more "top tier" saws. Hopefully, the system will become available on the more modest machine offerings.

[Erik Loza]

We had one in the booth last summer in Vegas. The tech is fantastic and it works as advertised. I sold one to a TX shop but left the company before it got delivered, so never got a chance to visit it in production.

Erik

[Dave Sabo]

It’s not that new. Debuted pre-Covid at Ligna 2019

Was discussed here back then :
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?274691-Felder-PCS-next-gen-saw-stoppage


summary:

Only available on Felder’s top of the range slider.
$10k option on an already expensive saw.

[lou Brava]

Wasn't aware, thanks for sharing. Good to see other company's adding safety tech. To me it doesn't appear to be SS tech. same idea but seems like a completely different way to stop an accident.

[Erik Loza]

The triggering method is same as SS (electrical circuit being created) but everything alse is different. The entire saw unit is attached to the underside of the cast iron table by pairs of super-industrial magnets. Once the circuit is created, the polarity on the magnets flips, driving the whole saw group below the deck. My uberstanding is that Felder designed this in conjunction with the engineering school at the University of Vienna. To me, the most surprising thing was how underwhelming the whole experience is. No loud bang or anything. More of a dull thud when the saw group drops. At that point, an alarm message pops up on the overhead control panel. You need to clear that, then the saw unit rises again. The entire process takes about 10 seconds IIRC.

Again, I wasn’t around to see one delivered to one of my customers but do recall that the techs can apparently adjust the sensitivity of the trigger, in case the shop was dealing with “wet-ish” lumber at times. My buddies in Austria, who I still keep in touch with, tell me that PCS machines are selling hand-over-fist in Europe. Not sure what those metrics will look like over here. Also, I would not hold my breath for seeing PCS technology on any of the smaller saws.

Erik

[Patrick Varley]

I saw an ad for this in FWW and went looking for more info. I thought it was interesting and wanted to share, for those who might not be aware. Link (https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/pcs)

The system allows you to quickly reset and get back to work.

Apparently it is ok for tge US market - Felder plans to show it off at IWF-Atlanta this year.

Until I see a "hot dog video", I'll remain skeptical.

[Frederick Skelly]

It’s not that new. Debuted pre-Covid at Ligna 2019

Was discussed here back then :
https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?274691-Felder-PCS-next-gen-saw-stoppage


Yup. Must have forgotten that thread. Thank you.

I dont do enough to warrant buying high end euro-tools, but that's just me. But what caught my attention was that this looks like a third method/approach to stopping an accident. (Sawstop, Bosch and now this one.) I find it hopeful that companies continue to develop these systems and I hope that someone someday builds one on a saw I can afford.

[Dave Sabo]

Until I see a "hot dog video", I'll remain skeptical.

Would an actual finger suffice ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFoo1ie9fYM


hot dog if you insist :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv9p3xOJ1Yc


And if you need more convincing...........16 min. in you get a hand and a hot dog:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMIbbt8km2o

[Rod Sheridan]

Would an actual finger suffice ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFoo1ie9fYM


hot dog if you insist :rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv9p3xOJ1Yc


And if you need more convincing...........16 min. in you get a hand and a hot dog:cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMIbbt8km2o

We had one in the showroom in Toronto, works exactly as shown in the video, I demonstrated it several times to customers.

It’s completely underwhelming, a muffled thump noise and the 16” blade is gone. Push reset, the saw mechanism travels down, turns the electro-magnet back on and brings the saw aggregate back to the setting it was in before the activation.

I’m not as brave as Harry, I held a small piece of metal under my finger as I cut the wood……Regards, Rod

[Andrew More]

I'm wondering if part of this is the expiration of the SawStop patents. My understanding is that they were going to expire about this time, maybe last year, with a bit of staggering for various parts. Having a different approach wasn't sufficient to protect Bosch in court.

[Warren Lake]

IF you are in a trade you learn it instead of buying a gizmo. You can buy a super car and there are enough crash and burn youtubes of the people who havent got a clue how to handle the power. LIke many drivers of high end cars that cant really drive very well. Thats fact. Then there are people who go to driving schools to learn what their cars can do.

The old guys i knew were taught what is safe and what is not and 50-60 years later had their fingers. They taught us dont do this or that and why. Its no guarantee but its 50 times better than learn off the net.

Here is a salesman showing you how you their device will save you. In over 40 years on machines ive never once used this hand position shown. YOu need a drivers license to drive a car, you need visa to buy a saw.

Here is my visa, I will learn as i go. Stuff happens so fast on a saw you will learn after its happened.





481168

[Jacques Gagnon]

I believe there are at least two sets of circumstances. Bad practices and accidents. Technology should not be viewed as a prevention against bad practices. While many / a lot / most / all (?) accidents are caused by some mistake somehow (operating when too tired; dirty floor or work surface; sudden distraction, etc) they do not happen by choice. I like the notion that technology can help avoid or reduce the impact of accidents, but completely agree that said technology should not be viewed as a panacea to poor work practices or unsafe work environment.

[Greg Quenneville]

Hmmmm. I have been thinking about safety for 52 years* now as a pilot and am aware that endless training and experience can be defeated easily by fatigue. While I cut my teeth on WWII era airplanes and can still fly them, I do appreciate the crash prevention technology that my current airliner is loaded with. So do the passengers: if we were still crashing at the rate we were in the 70’s we would have a headline every week. It took a long time for my industry to accept that no one is infallible.

When I had been woodworking for about 52 years I managed, at 4:15 after a long noisy day, to get my first machine injury. Power tools take no prisoners, and life altering events can happen faster than you can even process it until you notice the blood spray. If I was running a shop that could support a $40K saw upgrading for $10K would be a no-brainer. The monetary and human cost of one accident would make $10K seem like confetti in comparison.

Greg

*I fly in a country with no mandatory retirement age in case you were wondering about the math.

[Frederick Skelly]

I believe there are at least two sets of circumstances. Bad practices and accidents. Technology should not be viewed as a prevention against bad practices. While many / a lot / most / all (?) accidents are caused by some mistake somehow (operating when too tired; dirty floor or work surface; sudden distraction, etc) they do not happen by choice. I like the notion that technology can help avoid or reduce the impact of accidents, but completely agree that said technology should not be viewed as a panacea to poor work practices or unsafe work environment.

Well said Jacques.

[Warren Lake]

Lots of circumstances probably four or five. Doesnt change the fact that there are so many people that have never been taught what can go on if you do this or that. Tons of people have been pulled back into a blade because no one ever taught them not to go behind the blade. If I ever worked with people id want safety stuff as well, wouldnt want to be worried about employees.

[Jim Becker]

I'm wondering if part of this is the expiration of the SawStop patents. My understanding is that they were going to expire about this time, maybe last year, with a bit of staggering for various parts. Having a different approach wasn't sufficient to protect Bosch in court.
AFAIK, the sensing setup for the Felder solution is completely different than SS. Bosch, was a lot more similar to SS. But I could be wrong about one or both of those.

[Rod Sheridan]

Warren, after 49 years accident free, last August I amputated the ends of two fingers saving my daughter’s cat.

I agree 100% that training is extremely important, however unplanned occurrences do happen, with PCS I wouldn’t have lost finger ends, and it is possible that it could have detected the cat tail in the saw guard, preventing me from even reacting to the incident.

Regards, Rod

[Erik Loza]

Warren, one of my ex-colleagues told me this story while I was still with Felder: He had been talking to a shop about a PCS machine. They apparently choked at the price point. Some time later, one of their guys had accident on a table saw in the shop. By the time that business owner got the numbers for the workman’s comp claim, the PCS machine would have been cheaper. Point being, features like this are designed to mitigate risk and liability. The level of risk/liability that a production woodworking business assumes with its employees is not the same risk a hobbyist assumes in their home shop.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

Rod, That is terrible ! We like cats too….but never trust them. They have long tails and short attention spans.
Hope you healed quickly and that your daughter is over all the trauma.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, That is terrible ! We like cats too….but never trust them. They have long tails and short attention spans.
Hope you healed quickly and that your daughter is over all the trauma.

Thanks Mel, my daughter is a nurse, as I was on the bed in the hospital with the surgeon looking at the x rays and my hand, my phone rings.

Daughter “Dad, get the doctor to take some really good photographs of your fingers, I want to see them.”

Doctor when I hand her my phone and explain what I want “ Are you kidding me? Do you know what they look like?”

Once I explained about the nurse part she said that makes sense and took them.

I did get some revenge, I asked my daughter to clean the saw so my wife wouldn’t see it.

My daughter said I made a mess of the saw, took her an hour to clean it and she put the blade guard in the dishwasher along with the dishes.

Nurses…Sheesh

[Alan Lightstone]

Really sorry to hear that the Felder price for their new flesh-saving technology was so high. People balk at the small increase in cost for SawStops, so that's a big minus.

I used to love asking nurses in the OR "Do you love cats?" Because I have a great recipe. The secret is in slow cooking and braising. The cat lovers never spoke about cats in front of me again. :D So your story, which I vividly remembered, Rod, just reinforced that. But I digress...

[Rod Sheridan]

Really sorry to hear that the Felder price for their new flesh-saving technology was so high. People balk at the small increase in cost for SawStops, so that's a big minus.

I used to love asking nurses in the OR "Do you love cats?" Because I have a great recipe. The secret is in slow cooking and braising. The cat lovers never spoke about cats in front of me again. :D So your story, which I vividly remembered, Rod, just reinforced that. But I digress...


Haha, very good Alan, as one of my friends says everytime he comes over “ so many cats, so few good recipes”

The fingers are doing well, almost as good as new……Regards, Rod.

[Mark Gibney]

That's really unfortunate Rod. I hope your fingers continue to heal and you are back in the cat-free shop.
I vacillate about getting a SS but stories like this push me more towards getting one.

[Rod Sheridan]

That's really unfortunate Rod. I hope your fingers continue to heal and you are back in the cat-free shop.
I vacillate about getting a SS but stories like this push me more towards getting one.

Thanks Mark, I was back to using the saw either the next day, or day after.

The cat was at our house temporarily, he is now at my daughter’s home permanently.

My fingers are doing great, my brain has learned to correctly interpret the signals from my new fingertips.

What saved my fingers is the riving knife was very close to the blade, the cat jumped up on the fixed portion of the sliding table with the movable portion fully in the operator position.

When I grabbed the cat my fingers contacted the rear of the blade below the table so the saw literally shaved the fingertips off before I could pull back my hand, they’re about 3 to 6 mm shorter on two fingers…….Rod

[Bruce Page]

Is it just me? I click on the Felder video, and it runs for 2-3 seconds and stops. I click on it again and it runs for another 2-3 seconds. Very frustrating. I’m running a 6 month old Mac M1 & Firefox browser, it should have plenty of HP. It doesn’t have any problems with other videos.

[Andrew More]

AFAIK, the sensing setup for the Felder solution is completely different than SS. Bosch, was a lot more similar to SS. But I could be wrong about one or both of those.

I was wondering about that Jim. That another possible answer, and looking through their product brochures doesn't seem to answer that question.

[Rod Sheridan]

Is it just me? I click on the Felder video, and it runs for 2-3 seconds and stops. I click on it again and it runs for another 2-3 seconds. Very frustrating. I’m running a 6 month old Mac M1 & Firefox browser, it should have plenty of HP. It doesn’t have any problems with other videos.

It sounds like lack of internet bandwidth, video plays fine for me…..Rod

[Bruce Page]

That's what it seems like but I'm getting 208 MBPS down and 6 MBPS up on the speed tests.

Not important, I'm not going to buy one anyway. :)