It's not about the shavings!

[Rob Luter]

Sunday morning coffee rant......

Like some of us I consume my fair share of woodworking related print and video media. A favorite is YouTube instructional bits on technique, tool use, tool restoration, and such. How is it that many of the the guys doing vids on plane use and restoration completely miss the purpose of bench planes? No, it's not to produce "gossamer shavings". It's to work the wood surface to reduce thickness, create uniformity, and to smooth it to a finish ready condition. While your shaving is a good indicator of uniformity and depth of cut, it ain't the end product. I'd like to see more of these pieces focus on the surface finish you're left with rather than the waste that falls on the floor.

[Jim Koepke]

Many years ago at a Tool Event one of Ron Hock's blades was being given a test drive. As we were talking I picked up one of the shavings. He pointed to the shaving and said, "that isn't why people buy my blades." He then pointed to the surface of the piece of wood and said, "this is why they buy them."

A properly fettled and tuned up plane should be able to take a range of shavings. A jointer does not need to take "gossamer shavings" to do its job well or properly.

There is a usefulness to "gossamer shavings."

When fettling a plane a concave or even convex sole is not likely to be able to repeatedly produce a fine shaving. Part of trouble shooting a plane is "reading" the shaving or how the plane acts on the surface being planed.

On final smoothing, the thinner the shaving the less likely there will be tear out. It isn't likely to have a 0.020" divot torn out by a 0.001" shaving.

Finally thin shavings can inform a user of their blade's condition or if it is in need of sharpening.

One point to consider, by measuring my shavings at times it has "calibrated" my eye. When removing extra material it can often be calculated how many shavings need to be taken to reach my line. If it is too many, the blade can be adjusted to make it less.

Often times "gossamer shavings" are just a way to show off and gloat.

Yes, I am guilty of showing off and gloating.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Sunday morning coffee rant......

Like some of us I consume my fair share of woodworking related print and video media. A favorite is YouTube instructional bits on technique, tool use, tool restoration, and such. How is it that many of the the guys doing vids on plane use and restoration completely miss the purpose of bench planes? No, it's not to produce "gossamer shavings". It's to work the wood surface to reduce thickness, create uniformity, and to smooth it to a finish ready condition. While your shaving is a good indicator of uniformity and depth of cut, it ain't the end product. I'd like to see more of these pieces focus on the surface finish you're left with rather than the waste that falls on the floor.

Rob, there are a few factors. Unfortunately, many of the YouTube demonstrators do not know what they are showing, and many of the YouTube viewers do not know what they are seeing.

You can tell from a shaving how well the plane is set up. You are never going to get a consistent fine shaving if the sole/mouth is not flat. The evenness of the shaving (avoiding a skew) depends on a well-set blade. A straight shaving will tell you if the chipbreaker is in play. A broken shaving occurs when the board is not flat, and a full width shaving when the board is flat. Look at the feathering on the outside of the shaving to determine the blade's camber. Look at the shavings for shine to determine whether the blade is sharp.

All that before you look at the surface.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

"gossamer shavings" with a Stanley 45....
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Took 33 passes, just to go down 1/4" ...takes way to long..

480702
Now set up as a "working" plane, instead of a "Showboat" plane....6 passes to reach 1/4" depth.....

YMMV...

[James Pallas]

It’s more up to the wood being worked than the thickness of the shavings you can achieve. A plane needs to cut clean and not leave scratch marks. It’s than up to the finisher. Those beautiful finishes on quality old work, and some new, is art. The use of fillers, glazes, scrapers, glass paper, finish build and such. The plane is not usually the last cutting device to touch the work.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

"gossamer shavings" with a Stanley 45....
480701
Took 33 passes, just to go down 1/4" ...takes way to long..

480702
Now set up as a "working" plane, instead of a "Showboat" plane....6 passes to reach 1/4" depth.....

YMMV...

33 passes to go 1/4" does not a "gossamer shaving" make. It works out to more than 0.007" for the shavings. Maybe you have a different meaning for "gossamer."

Your thick shaving set up with 6 passes to reach 1/4" (~0.041" per shaving) looks a mess and your arrow points to what looks like one end being higher than the other. There is likely a sweet spot somewhere between the two settings.


The plane is not usually the last cutting device to touch the work.

My surfaces are seldom worked after the last smoothing plane. My sandpaper consumption has been almost non-existent in the past several years.

jtk

[Richard Coers]

Your mistake is thinking everyone doing a youtube video is an expert and knows what they are talking about. Most of youtube is about getting subscriptions and providing entertainment.

[Edward Weber]

I agree with the OP's frustration with the Tubers.
As other have pointed out quite well, you can learn an awful lot by being able to read the shavings but you then need to adjust your work according to what they tell you.
Like most, I also enjoy it when I achieve that sweet setup that gets you the perfect cut but it's a short lived victory if the underlying wood is not the proper dimension.
You can plane for removing unwanted material or you can plane for finishing a surface. Most tubers only show the thin wispy shavings no matter what they're actually doing. This is just another way of misleading people into thinking that it's the proper way to work. Spoiler; it doesn't always look like it does on YT, it's called editing.

This is the only time I can remember taking a photo of my shavings, after I got my (new to me) plane set the way I liked.
480722
The rest of the debris, the stuff that wasn't camera ready, just ends up in the bin

[steven c newman]

For a Stanley #45...that is just too many shavings ( and yes, I counted the passes...)

As for the "start" of that rebate being higher? EVERYONE knows one work back...and the far end gets done first....just the way the plane works..as you well know. As far that "mess"...that is 3 passes worth...right before I clear them out.
Normal for me shavings..
480731
#8c to flatten a panel?
480732
Or, just jointing an end....

YMMV, of course.....

[Rob Luter]

Jim and Derek - like I said, the shaving is a good indicator of uniformity and depth of cut. On certain woods it will communicate edge quality and geometry too. Nicks in a cutter are tougher to see with oak than maple. Yes, you can go to school on a shaving. My point was that the narrative seems to always be that it’s a tool to make shavings. If you’re using a spill plane to make fire starters maybe. Otherwise it’s a tool to surface wood.

[steven c newman]

Gossamer Shavings do have a use.....like when someone is trying to sell their "New & Improved" Sharpening System......or, when you are in Japan, taking part in a contest about shavings...

Also, if you are getting full width, full length Gossamer shavings...means you are done...unless you just want to stand around making them all day....

[Clifford McGuire]

Sunday morning coffee rant......

Like some of us I consume my fair share of woodworking related print and video media. A favorite is YouTube instructional bits on technique, tool use, tool restoration, and such.

I used to watch just about any woodworking related YouTube video.

But something happened. Now, after the comercials, and the in-video paid promotions and the begging to subscribe and the 'join my patreon for more, detailed content', what is left?

The titles would draw me in: "17 must see tips for using a ROS!!!" "Watch this before using polyurethane" "Best measuring tape tricks you've never seen!!" But after watching them, I couldn't think of anything I didn't already know.

Maybe woodworking YouTube videos have gone the way of woodworking magazines? Just recycling the same old stuff?

[Keegan Shields]

General content tends to get more clicks. This likely drives filming those “tape measure tricks” type videos. Check out Squarerule Furniture or Ishitani Furniture for some better content. No talking, just woodworking. Lots of good WW content beyond April Wilkerson and the other DIY type content.

[Edward Weber]

I used to watch just about any woodworking related YouTube video.

But something happened. Now, after the comercials, and the in-video paid promotions and the begging to subscribe and the 'join my patreon for more, detailed content', what is left?

The titles would draw me in: "17 must see tips for using a ROS!!!" "Watch this before using polyurethane" "Best measuring tape tricks you've never seen!!" But after watching them, I couldn't think of anything I didn't already know.

Maybe woodworking YouTube videos have gone the way of woodworking magazines? Just recycling the same old stuff?


To quote a friend of mine, "Youtube does not respect history"

If some of the presenters took a few seconds and did some research, they might find out that there is very little new. Most is re-hashed for an uninformed captive audience.
There are only so many top 10 lists, buy this not that, must have tools, and let's not forget the tips & tricks, one person can take.
All foam, no beer or is it all hat, no cattle, take your pick
I find very little "substance" in the majority of videos I've seen lately, not to mention, lack of safety and rather questionable tool usage.
None of that really bugs me, you post what you want, i find the sad part is the commenters that simply fawn over this type of content.

Unfortunately, a collection of look how clever I am videos is all we get from most. It is free content after all and you get what you pay for.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Even though it’s primarily dedicated to chairmaking, I’ve learned more about hand tool woodworking watching Curtis Buchanan’s channel than anywhere else. Most woodworking YouTubers are not worth the time.

[Rob Luter]

Even though it’s primarily dedicated to chairmaking, I’ve learned more about hand tool woodworking watching Curtis Buchanan’s channel than anywhere else. Most woodworking YouTubers are not worth the time.

Curtis is the man. I love his work, his attitude, and his videos. I’m 62 and I’d like to apprentice with him.

[Thomas Wilson]

YouTube woodworkers may be novices, but if I need to do something like take a tricky door panel off a car, I usually find useful information on YouTube.

[Edward Weber]

YouTube woodworkers may be novices, but if I need to do something like take a tricky door panel off a car, I usually find useful information on YouTube.

YouTube is an incredible asset to have and I've used it many times for things like your example BUT.
If you don't know the basics, you're just as likely to find the guy who takes off the door panel with a crow bar.
JMHO

[Tom M King]

Sometimes a shaving can be used to make a point. I was sent an A2 iron by someone because he couldn't get it sharp. I still don't like the way A2 feels, but you can get it sharp. This shaving is not very wide because the iron had a camber of a couple of thou, and if I had taken a full shaving, it wouldn't have been its thinnest.

I like youtube for mechanic work too. Often, I'll save half the time it would have taken figuring it out on my own, and even started with the right size wrenches laid out.

[Jim Koepke]

YouTube woodworkers may be novices, but if I need to do something like take a tricky door panel off a car, I usually find useful information on YouTube.


YouTube is an incredible asset to have and I've used it many times for things like your example BUT.
If you don't know the basics, you're just as likely to find the guy who takes off the door panel with a crow bar.
JMHO

This is where an individual viewer needs to decide whether or not the presenter is playing with a full deck.

There is always going to be some know it all who can mess up pouring water out of a boot. Sadly there is always a percentage of people who will give them an avid following.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Beg to differ. I'm impressed with Youtubers and anyone who is out there doing stuff. Who cares? What's the harm? Theoretically the bad advice may result in some dangerous situations, but by and large that doesn't appear to have happened. Instead many new, young people are getting involved in making things and feeling empowered.

As for gossamer shavings, I don't understand why it's annoying. It's a noble goal. Who's saying it is required in every situation? If you need a thicker cut, take a thicker cut. Has there been any video saying otherwise?

I'll tell you what gets my goat: experts complaining about novices. The vast majority of novices - even youtubers - are humble and learning and don't present themselves as knowing it all. But experts on the other hand seem to get easily offended.

[Tom M King]

Also, if you can take a shaving with a no. 8 on a 12' 2x3 suspended on the ends, you know you're not pushing down on a plane too hard. I like a no.8 for leveling pieces, since it can almost find its own flat plane. I needed to take some twist out of some handrail pieces, and didn't want to take a lot of meat off on a jointer.

[Edward Weber]

Beg to differ. I'm impressed with Youtubers and anyone who is out there doing stuff. Who cares? What's the harm? Theoretically the bad advice may result in some dangerous situations, but by and large that doesn't appear to have happened. Instead many new, young people are getting involved in making things and feeling empowered.

As for gossamer shavings, I don't understand why it's annoying. It's a noble goal. Who's saying it is required in every situation? If you need a thicker cut, take a thicker cut. Has there been any video saying otherwise?

I'll tell you what gets my goat: experts complaining about novices. The vast majority of novices - even youtubers - are humble and learning and don't present themselves as knowing it all. But experts on the other hand seem to get easily offended.

I can only speak for myself but it's not about experts or those with a higher skill level complaining about novices. It is much more nuanced than that.
I'm all for going out to the shop and trying your hand at whatever strikes your fancy BUT you still need to follow some basic rules.

" Who cares? What's the harm? Theoretically the bad advice may result in some dangerous situations but by and large that doesn't appear to have happened."

I can't disagree with that statement strongly enough. It is not theoretical at all and it can result in serious harm and death.
(In the news recently, deaths due to fractal burning)

The gossamer shavings is just one example of a deeper issue, they are shown as an eye catching device to gain the attention of the viewer but all the information as to why, how, etc. behind those shavings is typically missing or glossed over.
While whispy little wood shaving won't harm anyone, over simplification of anything can have consequences.
Look at all the people using angle grinders like there are toys, that's dangerous, especially without knowledge of the tool, which it seems many don't have.

One woodworking example I have seen many times is a wedged tenon used improperly, with the wedge parallel to the mortised piece of wood. This alignment can result in a failure of the joint and injury.
Now many times the person made the joint properly but doesn't have an understanding of why it's designed and used in a certain orientation, benefiting from the wedging perpendicular to the grain to add strength.
I have seen this on a stool of similar design at least 5 times. This was obviously copied from one to another, with the same incorrect use of the joint.

Remember just because no one got hurt, doesn't mean is was not dangerous or a smart thing to do.

As Jim said "This is where an individual viewer needs to decide whether or not the presenter is playing with a full deck."
This implies that the viewer knows enough to tell if he is.
This is also how bad (dangerous) habits get started.
JMNSHO

[Brian Ward]

Regarding YouTube video quality, remember that most of what you're seeing is produced to generate clicks for views, and to get viewers to watch as much of a video as possible. This is the kind of stuff that makes a video show up in more feeds.

That viewer engagement equation doesn't center on being a decent woodworker. Video production is its own world of skill and skill acquisition. This is speaking from experience--my first experimental video was kinda "meh," and maybe I'm improving as I've made a couple more, though I'm still not really sure why I'm doing it.

Interestingly, lately there's been a lot of chatter among the video creators that it's been more difficult to get views, and a complaint that project videos are no longer worth making. So you're seeing content drift in certain directions, and a lot more trashy clickbait thumbnails and such. I personally wonder if it's a cycle that's feeding on itself.

[Prashun Patel]

I learned completely on the internet (and this forum). I made mistakes (mostly aesthetic crimes against humanity). I spoke out of turn (still do). But I learned.

Now, I strongly agree that the DIY home channels showing free-hand cutting on a tablesaw without a guard or riving knife are criminal. But as for the wispy shavings conspiracy, it's just not a big deal. It feels more like experts complaining that some of us haven't earned our stripes.

People get over zealous when they learn a skill. They talk out of school. Then they settle down. It's how things progress. We'd do better to view that with amusement instead of discouraging derision.

I guess for me fundamentally it feels ok that newbies have a ton of confidence. For a lot of the experts, that seems to offend. "You just haven't earned it yet, Baby." That feels to me just unproductive.

Wispy shavings. Who cares?!

[Clifford McGuire]

I think there's a difference between Youtubers that want to share knowledge and those that want to make money. Chasing sponsors, padding the video length to get that extra commercial in, and such are more content creaters than woodworkers.

But I can think of two instances in the past year that were made so much better via Youtube.
1) DavidW's unicorn sharpening method.
2) Patrick Sullivan's end grain glue strength comparisons.

There's probably others, but those two come immediately to mind.

[Mike Allen1010]

Beg to differ. I'm impressed with Youtubers and anyone who is out there doing stuff. Who cares? What's the harm? Theoretically the bad advice may result in some dangerous situations, but by and large that doesn't appear to have happened. Instead many new, young people are getting involved in making things and feeling empowered.

As for gossamer shavings, I don't understand why it's annoying. It's a noble goal. Who's saying it is required in every situation? If you need a thicker cut, take a thicker cut. Has there been any video saying otherwise?

I'll tell you what gets my goat: experts complaining about novices. The vast majority of novices - even youtubers - are humble and learning and don't present themselves as knowing it all. But experts on the other hand seem to get easily offended.

+1, well said Prashun. A little empathy for beginners, and humility about one’s own skills goes a long way to creating healthy dialogue. Just IMHO, YMMV.

[steven c newman]

1 hour and 15 minutes of working the planes...and nothing else...
481556
Filled half a 5 gallon bucket.....

[Jim Koepke]

There isn't a working clock in my shop, so the time spent on this is unknown.

This was just one of the boxes filled by a poplar 4"X10"X7' plank:

481562

This was the final smoothing done with a #6. The clamping on this shows why my preference is for at least a small apron on my bench.

Anyone who uses wood heat in the winter has a good use for the shavings.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Mine was set by the unset of Heat Cramps...had to stop...still had more to do, TODAY...but...
481571
I guess I could finish this Maple lid..tomorrow?

Wonder...could I throw the Maple shaving in to the Charcoal Grill? Hmmmm...

[Tom M King]

Start of a morning's work. This was in the air conditioned basement of one of the old houses I worked on. The little Lervad gets clamped to the table saw so it doesn't move.

[Jim Koepke]

The little Lervad gets clamped to the table saw so it doesn't move.

Many years ago my troubles with using a light bench was remedied by filling a bucket with concrete:

481595

This has now kept my light weight bench from dancing around for over 12 years.

jtk

[Tom M King]

That little bench has averaged being moved once a year since I bought it new in 1977. I would never have wanted to move extra weight. Sometimes I clamp a 2x4 to the stretchers and put it against a wall (or chimney). Sometimes I just butt a corner against a wall. I doubt many hobbyist benches have seen the number of shavings thrown over it. I would have bought a bigger one back then if I could have afforded it, and this one hadn't been on such a good sale. It's served me well since then.

I got a good laugh one time when I read that Chris Swarz said no one uses one.

The top just sits on metal pins on top of the legs, and the legs and strecthers fold up flat.

[Jim Koepke]

I got a good laugh one time when I read that Chris Swarz said no one uses one.

This makes me think back to when I used to listen to a lot of radio. There was a call in program on the AM band that the host told a story about trying to pitch his program to an advertising company. The representative said, "nobody listens to AM radio." After he told the story people calling in would identify themselves with, "Hi, I'm a nobody from ___________," and get on with the call.

There are a lot of us no ones and nobodies out there doing what no one and nobody is doing.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Chris Schwarz would have a heart attack, IF he ever seen MY bench.....then again, there are some days, even I can't see my bench...even though, I do know where it is...

[Prashun Patel]

Again with the defensiveness. Of course people have small benches and do things to be practical or economical.

Does anyone have the passage that schwarz said that in? I highly suspect you guys are taking it out of context.

Just as the educated are not so impressed with big fancy benches, neither are they impressed with a small one and a bucket full of proof that it works.

So much is just taken out of context and people are just itching to draw up sides. Let it go already.

[Tom M King]

I don't remember where I read that, but it's been years ago. I did a Google search, and this is all that came up. This is the same as my bench. I can't remember if the sale price was $177, or $199. 177 sort of sticks in my mind, but I do know it was the Winter of 1977, the only Winter the lake has frozen over. It was the first thing I ever bought with free shipping, and the free shipping probably pushed me over the edge looking at the Leichtung catalog waiting for the weather to get better.

https://blog.lostartpress.com/2016/12/17/factory-fresh-levard-workbench/

Here are some more pictures that I had in my gallery here.

[Edward Weber]

Again with the defensiveness. Of course people have small benches and do things to be practical or economical.

Does anyone have the passage that schwarz said that in? I highly suspect you guys are taking it out of context.

Just as the educated are not so impressed with big fancy benches, neither are they impressed with a small one and a bucket full of proof that it works.

So much is just taken out of context and people are just itching to draw up sides. Let it go already.


With respect, you seem to be the one getting defensive.

Do what works for you in your shop, period.
I have four sand bags on the shelf under my lathe for ballast. Does it work, sure but I'm not going to go around promoting it. You do what you need to do.
I don't think anyone is saying anything different, I may be wrong.

[Tom M King]

I did another Google search putting "no one uses one" in quotes, and this came up:

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?58479-Levard-workbench

Looks like his link is dead, but I do remember getting a good laugh out of it. I wasn't being defensive at all. I did think it was funny in my case.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Yes, Prashun was defensive in that he was defending Schwarz. So will I.

From the various things linked, in one case Schwarz commented in reference to a particular example of that type of bench, that it was in such good shape it looked as if it had not been used. In another he said "All in all the craftsmanship was excellent. I just think it could use a lot more mass." Both statements sound reasonable to me.

[Edward Weber]

Yes, Prashun was defensive in that he was defending Schwarz. So will I.

From the various things linked, in one case Schwarz commented in reference to a particular example of that type of bench, that it was in such good shape it looked as if it had not been used. In another he said "All in all the craftsmanship was excellent. I just think it could use a lot more mass." Both statements sound reasonable to me.


Why?
So someone took Mr Schwarz slightly out of context while making a joke.
No one is attacking Mr Schwarz, No harm done to anyone.

If I make a joke about using glue, screws and brad nails on the same piece do I have to apologize to Norm Abram?
Lighten up, not everything needs to be taken so seriously.

[Prashun Patel]

Ok. I didn’t mean to make it even worse. Sorry for saying anything.

[Tom M King]

This has gotten a bit out of hand, but that wasn't the comment that I laughed at years ago. The link I posted was the only reference to that particular bench that I found easily with a google search today. There was nothing to laugh about in that article. He probably commented some time later that no one would actually use that little bench, but I'm not spending time looking for it. That comment was the one that got a laugh out of me. I don't follow him, so I have no idea when it was.

Someone else pointed it out to me, but I don't even remember who that was. I remember the laugh, but I don't remember the specific origin. I had no idea it would raise such ire with his followers, but even that is sort of funny.

I merely posted the picture talking about shavings, and then followed up with a conversation about ways to get around using a lightweight bench. I'm not a hobbyist woodworker. I produce work for a living. I get a laugh out of a lot of the teachers that don't really produce work for a living.