I think my zero turn mower is cursed!

[Brian Elfert]

I bought a used 2019 Grasshopper diesel zero turn mower with 189 hours on it last summer. I had all kinds of problems with it initially including a starter that didn't always turn over. I realized after I bought it that the mower had been buried pretty deep in mud or something as the dashboard was full of mud.

I had the starter rebuilt this spring and the rebuilder said it was full of dirt. The mower had to be buried pretty deep to get dirt into the starter. I started it about ten times since the rebuild and the dang starter quit again! The volt meter was showing the voltage dropping quite a bit when turning the key so the solenoid seemed to be engaging. I rapped the starter very gently and it started right up after that. I think this mower is cursed. I am sure the shop will fix it for me, but I don't really want to be without a mower for nearly two weeks during peak mowing season.

[Ron Citerone]

Having one recurring problem doesn't mean cursed neccessarily. But maybe that starter is beyond rebuilding? Have you cleaned up wiring connections, especially the grounds? If it was deep in mud I would be checking/cleaning any wiring connections that could have been in the mud. My 2 cents.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My mowers look like they have been in mud but the dirt is accumulated dust from mowing. It creeps into tiny places and accumulates as very fine silt. It is hard on all kinds of parts. The problem is worse if mowing is done near gravel roads.

[Brian Elfert]

Having one recurring problem doesn't mean cursed neccessarily. But maybe that starter is beyond rebuilding? Have you cleaned up wiring connections, especially the grounds? If it was deep in mud I would be checking/cleaning any wiring connections that could have been in the mud. My 2 cents.

I’ve been through the wiring and all looks great. I verified the wiring on the starter was tight when it wouldn’t start yesterday. The voltage dropped when I turned the key to the start position so I think the starter was getting power. I gave the starter a gentle rap with a hammer and it started right up after that.

The starter may be beyond rebuilding, but the shop did rebuild it. He said he had to replace basically everything inside the starter. I really don’t want to spend $400+ on a new starter, especially after spending $140 on the rebuild.

[Bill Dufour]

Starter $400, what engine?
Bill D

[Brian Elfert]

Kubota D902E. The OEM starter is a Mitsubishi 16824-63014 and costs between $400 and $450 online. You can buy the Chinese junk starters for around $100, but I don't want to be replacing the starter every year. Most people would tell you never to buy the cheap Chinese starters for your car so why would I buy one for my mower?

[Jim Koepke]

There are a lot of things that could cause a situation like this.

My first check would be the brushes. A piece of loose dirt could lift them off of the commutator and keep the starter motor from turning.

You mention a voltage drop, can you hear any sound coming from the starter or a relay?

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

If there is still dirt in the starter that would indicate it wasn't properly cleaned out when it was rebuilt. I am assuming the voltage drop is the starter drawing a ton of current, but not actually spinning. Once I gave the starter a gentle rap it started right up when I turned the key the next time. I didn't have a second person to turn the key while I checked to see if the starter was getting power.

The mower is cursed because it spent as much time in the shop the first summer as it spent at my house. None of the fixes were expensive, but it was the two to three week backlog easch time that was the killer. Luckily, it never went to the shop for the starter.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If starter works when you "tap it", sounds like a stuck brush set to me. Just my two cents worth and worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Steve Jenkins]

I have two Kubotas that acted like that. The service tech put a relay between the battery and the starter solinoid
To provide full power. Solved the problem.

[Jim Koepke]

I have two Kubotas that acted like that. The service tech put a relay between the battery and the starter solinoid
To provide full power. Solved the problem.

This sounds like a problem old (6 Volt) VWs had. The voltage drop from the battery to the key then to the starter was enough to prevent the starting solenoid to kick in. It would still cause the voltage across the battery to drop.

VW actually had a small relay to install on the sheet metal near the starter/solenoid to correct the problem.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

If starter works when you "tap it", sounds like a stuck brush set to me. Just my two cents worth and worth exactly what you paid for it.

That might be it, but I literally had this starter rebuilt by a local shop in April and it had ten starts on it before it acted up again. I'll probably take it back to them, but I really don't want my mower down for up to two weeks during the peak of mowing season.

If voltage was an issue why would it start just fine after a light tap on the starter? The positive on the starter goes direct to the battery with less than a foot of cable.

[Lee Schierer]

If voltage was an issue why would it start just fine after a light tap on the starter? The positive on the starter goes direct to the battery with less than a foot of cable.

Most likely there is some grease in the brush holders and one of the brushes sticks and isn't making good contact with the commutator. When you tap it the brush moves and makes good electrical contact. Take it apart and clean the brushes and their holders

[Tom M King]

A rebuilt starter should be as good as a new one.

[Steve Jenkins]

If voltage was an issue why would it start just fine after a light tap on the starter? The positive on the starter goes direct to the battery with less than a foot of cable.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know but that is exactly what mine were doing

[Kev Williams]

Irony: Needing to replace a $400 starter that's failed 3 times since last summer, but not wanting to buy a cheap Chinese $100 starter for fear it'll fail once a year ;)

(don't shoot me, just a joke) :D

[Brian Elfert]

Irony: Needing to replace a $400 starter that's failed 3 times since last summer, but not wanting to buy a cheap Chinese $100 starter for fear it'll fail once a year ;)

(don't shoot me, just a joke) :D

I hate buying things over and over again and throwing stuff in the landfill.

The issue with the current starter is the previous owner apparently buried the mower deep enough in mud to get mud inside the starter. I had the starter rebuilt and the guy said it was full of dirt.

[Jerome Stanek]

A rebuilt starter should be as good as a new one.

When I ran heavy equipment we would buy rebuilt starters because new ones had a 1 year warranty and rebuilt ones had a 5 year

[Ronald Blue]

I'm in agreement with Tom 100%. IF the starter was properly rebuilt it should be as good as new. As Lee mentioned the bearings are the only thing that should have grease on them. It sounds like a brush sticking and when you tap on the starter body it engages. I looked because I had not encountered a Mitsubishi starter on a Kubota before. Denso brand is far more common and maybe an option. If the mower was ran off in a pond or ditch and got water and mud where it didn't belong I would expect you to find evidence of that in other locations as well. When you have the starter off look in the bellhousing for evidence of that. At any rate there are many options for th as is. I just looked and Napa appears to have replacement starters for this as well.

[Brian Elfert]

Here is a picture I took back when I took the starter out before it went to the rebuild shop.

There is plenty of evidence that the mower got very wet and muddy. The "dashboard" is full of mud. I had to remove both of what you might call the fenders to get to the safety switches for the control arms to check to see if the switches were working. There was mud all up inside the fenders where the dealer didn't wash the unit completely. The two wheel motors are quite rusty on the outside. I am going to change the hydraulic fluid and filter twice to make sure no water or dirt got into the hydraulics.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Brian, you keep saying stuck in the mud, but i'm thinking it may have been salvaged from a flood - - not that it matters, nor help with the diagnosis.

[Ronald Blue]

I recall you making a "journey" to get this mower. Obviously the dealer isn't ethical or the person who traded it in wasn't. Hard to believe the dealer wouldn't have been aware of it if it was submerged. It's not unusual for ZTR mowers to end up in a pond or lake by operator error. As for the starter though if properly rebuilt it should be as good as new. If you have doubts I would check out replacement options. We had starters rebuilt all the time when I was working on heavy equipment. New starters were only purchased if it was a different starter than we had on the shelf. Then the failed unit was rebuilt and put on the shelf.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Some of these mowers have a lot of safety gates to get through before the motor turns over. I had starting issues with my Scagg and it turned out to be the PTO clutch.... :D big surprise cuz I didn't know it had one.

[Brian Elfert]

Brian, you keep saying stuck in the mud, but i'm thinking it may have been salvaged from a flood - - not that it matters, nor help with the diagnosis.

I am no expert on floods, but I wouldn't think there would be grass and mud packed up inside the "dash" if it was flooded. I might be wrong on that.

[Brian Elfert]

Some of these mowers have a lot of safety gates to get through before the motor turns over. I had starting issues with my Scagg and it turned out to be the PTO clutch.... :D big surprise cuz I didn't know it had one.

The first time it wouldn't start last summer I pulled the mower apart and tested all of the safety switches. They were all working. I could also hear them clicking. I even talked to Grasshopper tech support and they told me there is only one safety switch that prevents starting the engine. It sat for a few hours and then I tried again and it started.

The second time it wouldn't start I checked to see if the solenoid was getting power. It was. I decided hit the starter and then it started right up when I turned the key to start.

[Brian Elfert]

I don't think some of you understand I already had the starter rebuilt in the beginning of April. Less than ten starts later the starter is acting the same way it did before I had it rebuilt. It wouldn't crank and I had to give the starter a gentle tap to make it work again. Before I gave it the tap I checked to be sure the solenoid wire was tight and that the positive cable to the starter was still tight.

I doubt the John Deere dealer knew what happened to this mower. I find it hard to believe they would risk their reputation by intentionally selling a used mower that was flooded, sunk in the mud, or something. I'll never know what really happened to the mower before it ended up at the John Deere dealer.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Brian, the gentle tap required, to me, indicates (1) something electrical inside the starter is loose and the tap helped make it to make electrical contact, OR (2) something mechanical or electrical like a brush inside the starter is physically "hung/binding" and the mechanical tap freed it to function normally.

The fact that someone "overhauled" doesn't mean it was done correctly or that a part that was installed hasn't failed prematurely.

Do you have a friend who is mechanically inclined who could help you disassemble the starter to see if you can find the cause of the problem?

There is nothing magic about a starter.

I know it's frustrating, but the mower can be fixed.

Good luck!

[Brian Elfert]

I call this mower cursed because it spent more time in the shop last summer than it spent at my house. It breaks almost every time I mow with it. I didn’t even make it through the first cut this year before it broke again with the starting issue. I needed to pick up branches and decided with the cost of diesel to shut off the engine. It didn’t start after that.

[Ronald Blue]

Brian, the gentle tap required, to me, indicates (1) something electrical inside the starter is loose and the tap helped make it to make electrical contact, OR (2) something mechanical or electrical like a brush inside the starter is physically "hung/binding" and the mechanical tap freed it to function normally.

The fact that someone "overhauled" doesn't mean it was done correctly or that a part that was installed hasn't failed prematurely.

Do you have a friend who is mechanically inclined who could help you disassemble the starter to see if you can find the cause of the problem?

There is nothing magic about a starter.

I know it's frustrating, but the mower can be fixed.

Good luck!

That was where I was leaning Ken. It might be no fault of the rebuilder. They should make good on it though. Sometimes components put back in aren't always "perfect" either. We had an issue with starters on John Deere 4045 engines. 4 cylinder 100 HP diesel. The rebuilt starters were eating the starter ring gear after about 3 months out from rebuild. Had the rebuilder start putting JD drives in because the after market drive wasn't extending the drive gear for full engagement. Ring gears aren't hard to change but shouldn't be needed. Half engagement lead to early failures though. In this case it wasn't any fault of the rebuilder.

[Kev Williams]

Brian, you keep saying stuck in the mud, but i'm thinking it may have been salvaged from a flood - - not that it matters, nor help with the diagnosis.


I am no expert on floods, but I wouldn't think there would be grass and mud packed up inside the "dash" if it was flooded. I might be wrong on that.

Maybe a victim of a hurricane? Been plenty of those the past year...

[Brian Elfert]

Maybe a victim of a hurricane? Been plenty of those the past year...

I don't think they have hurricanes in Iowa.

[Michael Schuch]

A rebuilt starter should be as good as a new one.

No, A properly rebuilt starter should be as good as a new one!

[Michael Schuch]

Brian, you keep saying stuck in the mud, but i'm thinking it may have been salvaged from a flood - - not that it matters, nor help with the diagnosis.

That was exactly what I thought when I read the description.

[Brian Elfert]

I have two Kubotas that acted like that. The service tech put a relay between the battery and the starter solinoid
To provide full power. Solved the problem.

The starter rebuild guy called me back today. He told me the exact same thing. He said he is seeing so many solenoids getting lower voltage due to cost cutting on wire sizes that he sells a kit with a relay and prewired socket to add onto the solenoid circuit. He thinks the solenoid may have been stuck on a bad spot from low voltage and my gentle tap "fixed" the solenoid. I am going to add the relay and see if it happens again. If it happens again after that he will fix my starter under warranty.

[Ronald Blue]

The starter rebuild guy called me back today. He told me the exact same thing. He said he is seeing so many solenoids getting lower voltage due to cost cutting on wire sizes that he sells a kit with a relay and prewired socket to add onto the solenoid circuit. He thinks the solenoid may have been stuck on a bad spot from low voltage and my gentle tap "fixed" the solenoid. I am going to add the relay and see if it happens again. If it happens again after that he will fix my starter under warranty.

It will be interesting to see if this corrects it. This is commonly done on large equipment when you have long runs of 15 or 20 feet from the key switch. This is a short run and not usually an issue. However a quick verification if the starter is accessible is to use a jumper wire from the battery positive cable on the starter and the solenoid input or signal wire. If it snaps in it's a voltage drop issue. Of course if it doesn't the starter is at fault.

[Jim Koepke]

However a quick verification if the starter is accessible is to use a jumper wire from the battery positive cable on the starter and the solenoid input or signal wire. If it snaps in it's a voltage drop issue. Of course if it doesn't the starter is at fault.

This reminds me of my 1957 VW bus. The starter/solenoid set up had three terminals: one side went to ground, the other side went to the positive terminal on the battery, the third was the wire from the key switch on the dash.

After rebuilding my engine a piece of sheet metal was omitted (oops my error) between the engine and the transmission. This allowed access to the starter/solenoid terminals. With a stubby screw driver it was possible to short the battery to the key switch terminal and turn the engine over to start. This was eventually fixed with the little relay made for the purpose.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

I didn't think about trying a wire from the battery directly to the starter. I'll try it if/when it happens again.