Cost effectiveness of a slider vs. tracksaw & tablesaw

[Jonathan Jung]

I thought about posting this to the business section, because I'd really like input from professionals who use their shop as a business. For those of you who make $ or even a living making furniture or cabinets, how long does it take for a sliding table saw to pay for itself compared to a track saw and tablesaw?

Currently I build 3-5 kitchens worth of high-end cabinets a year plus furniture, and that's growing. I have a 4x8 bench setup with a sacrificial top right near my Sawstop, a TS55 with a sharp fine blade, 5 different length tracks to hand, and a TSO square left attached to a 75" track. My process is like this:

Lay the sheetgood on the table
straightline one edge with a 9' track
look at cutlist and determine best first crosscut using 75" rail and TSO
take the 2 pieces to the table saw, referencing the fence off the perfect 90deg cut from the tracksaw
cutout remaining panels by bouncing between cutting lengths and widths, always using the fence

Doing it this way, there's only 2-3 cuts with the tracksaw, the rest is on the tablesaw, and this has been working very well for me, I always get square cuts, even after bouncing back and forth between original straightline and crosscut. Obviously when a panel becomes too narrow to safely cut off the fench, I have to take to the sliding miter saw, and we all know the quality of those cuts. So, I am curious how much faster a sliding tablesaw will be.

The only significant timesavings I see are in

+ batch crosscuts with a crosscut stop
+ narrow pieces
+ occasional folding mitre casework

From a business perspective, it seems there's nothing a sliding tablesaw can do that my tracksaws and tablesaw can't, so how long would it take to save significant coin in timespent? Just being faster isn't enough of a reason to spend thousands. I think I'm wanting quantitative input on labour savings.

[andy bessette]

...Just being faster isn't enough of a reason to spend thousands...

You've just answered your own question.

[Steve Eure]

I'm with Andy on this. My decision would be to buy or make an MFT style table with a fence and track system for the shorter/narrower cuts. Get a flip up track adapter for the track and you have a great setup. You are happy with the track saw performance, so that would enhance it to the next level and would save quite a bit of money.

[roger wiegand]

There will be at least three components to this calculation. 1) ability to complete the work with fewer hours expended, 2) improved quality, including both precision and material lost due to error, with the attendant lost time for re-work, 3) ergonomics and ease of material handling that may translate to getting more done in a day, fewer days lost to injury, or in having a longer career. There may be other more important aspects I'm overlooking.

I don't know how the methods compare. My observation is that most pro/production shops opt for the slider, suggesting, but certainly not proving, that it offers advantages that outweigh the added cost. It would take a detailed time and motion study to get a definitive answer. Someone may well have already done the research, I only found anecdotal reports in a quick look.

[Kevin Jenness]

For me the advantage of a slider is as much about ergonomics and saving my back as about saving time. You appear relatively young - if you stick with it by the time you are my age you will have processed thousands more sheets and board feet of lumber, all of which will seem heavier than they do now.

Once I get a sheet (might be 1" mdf at 100 # or so) up on the saw with the help of a Crazy Horse dolly I can dice it up with less effort than on a tablesaw because the pieces are supported and guided by the carriage. I don't have to support the overhang or force the guiding edge against the rip fence. I don't have to strain to make a 48" crosscut with a hand-held saw or move half-sheets from a table to the saw. I can easily back up the cut to eliminate tearout at the sheet's edge. There's just less wear and tear on the only non-replaceable piece of gear in the shop, my body.

Sliders aren't the all-in-all. If you just want to cut square-edged rectangles a vertical saw is more efficient, and if you are doing casework in volume you should invest in a cnc router. What they are is versatile and accurate if used properly. They can save considerable time over a jointer when straightlining lumber and will give a superior cut to a sliding miter saw for those narrow pieces and odd angle cuts. The cost savings are not simply in labor time but in quality of cut and minimizing re-work and sanding.

If you have access to another shop with a slider, do a comparative time-motion study. Watch someone experienced process a few sheets on a slider and compare it to your present method. That should answer your question. It's a good question but not the only one you should be asking.

[George Yetka]

A slider may be nice. But I think you have a better system as is. The slider will take a lot of room and you still have to handle your sheet. I dont think I would do it. Unless you just want it, i'm not the person to hold anyone back from tools.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Jonathan,
You just described my methodology 15 years ago. Oddly, I just bought a slider a few months ago. What happened in between? A CNC. For about twice the investment of a new 10' slider, you can buy a CNC, in my case, a 60x96 Shopbot, and realize about a ten fold increase in capabilities. This includes all the drudgery of plywood processing, not just cutting clean, straight lines. Absolutely revolutionary, and as I remain 100% sole operator, it is essential. Chair/ furniture making with no template work and pre-cut mortises is outrageously time-saving. Being able to craft one-off arched/curved moldings, carved chair seats, corbels, and with the Shopbot, I jigged up and can run half-blind dovetail joinery at the far end. Sets up like a Porter cable jig.

Always knew I'd get a sawstop some day. Then I went to an advanced shaper joinery class, and saw for the first time a slider in action. Had nothing to do with sheet goods at all. Since receiving that 10' slider in January, I have never missed the conventional table saw. In fact, activity at the sliding compound miter saw has almost ceased entirely, so I'd say, a slider is absolutely wonderful, but nothing compares to the CNC if you're asking for speed, accuracy and ROI. From my experience, I'd second the suggestion that you incorporate some serious thought / research into this direction.

BTW, if your neighbor's sliding saw is respectable and reasonably priced, that may indeed be a smart buy at this point.

Again, you seem to be an awful lot like myself in the early days, and that CNC will save wear and tear on you like nothing else. Cannot imagine being without one, for all the ability it gives you to say "yes, I can" to whatever adventurous new concepts are thrown at you as you grow into this business. I really enjoy the heck out of doing this for a living. Choosing the right tools at the right time is key to keeping you smiling all the way!

jeff

[Jared Sankovich]

I thought about posting this to the business section, because I'd really like input from professionals who use their shop as a business. For those of you who make $ or even a living making furniture or cabinets, how long does it take for a sliding table saw to pay for itself compared to a track saw and tablesaw?

Currently I build 3-5 kitchens worth of high-end cabinets a year plus furniture, and that's growing. I have a 4x8 bench setup with a sacrificial top right near my Sawstop, a TS55 with a sharp fine blade, 5 different length tracks to hand, and a TSO square left attached to a 75" track. My process is like this:

Lay the sheetgood on the table
straightline one edge with a 9' track
look at cutlist and determine best first crosscut using 75" rail and TSO
take the 2 pieces to the table saw, referencing the fence off the perfect 90deg cut from the tracksaw
cutout remaining panels by bouncing between cutting lengths and widths, always using the fence

Doing it this way, there's only 2-3 cuts with the tracksaw, the rest is on the tablesaw, and this has been working very well for me, I always get square cuts, even after bouncing back and forth between original straightline and crosscut. Obviously when a panel becomes too narrow to safely cut off the fench, I have to take to the sliding miter saw, and we all know the quality of those cuts. So, I am curious how much faster a sliding tablesaw will be.

The only significant timesavings I see are in

+ batch crosscuts with a crosscut stop
+ narrow pieces
+ occasional folding mitre casework

From a business perspective, it seems there's nothing a sliding tablesaw can do that my tracksaws and tablesaw can't, so how long would it take to save significant coin in timespent? Just being faster isn't enough of a reason to spend thousands. I think I'm wanting quantitative input on labour savings.

Just curious here but if I read your description you are not using a crosscut sled for plywood panels? All crosscuts are the tso & track?

[Jim Becker]

There are certainly times when a tracksaw shines for a particular option. But in the shop, especially for some kind of production, a slider is going to be both time effective as you note as well as provide repeatable precision cut after cut. Combined with good material handling, one can sling sheets pretty quickly. The slider is also ideal for crosscutting...the primary reason why it's my table saw preference. I do limited work with sheet goods, but the slider has been "the best thing since sliced veneer" for precision cutting of solid stock. I'm missing it GREATLY right now and being frustrated enough with what are limitations to a cabinet saw in my temporary shop.

A slider hasn't taken away my enjoyment and need for the tracksaw. I frankly find them complimentary for a one person situation, although I'm not any kind of production oriented user. Sometimes it's about lifting, honestly, and I don't do that so well anymore.

[Will Boulware]

Are you building face frame cabinets? Frameless? Doing your doors in house? (sorry if I missed it above). How much space do you have?

I do very little sheet goods work, but when I do get the occasional order for a kitchen or built-in, my process is the same as what you're doing now. That said, if you're going to invest in your production line, I'd think a good CNC would put you miles ahead of a slider as it can cut your joinery, shelf pin holes, etc. and the footprint is smaller if your shop space is tight. Storing (and subsequently working around) a kitchen's worth of cabinets is a pain in a cramped space.

Biggest thing to me would be how much material handling you could reduce. If you can pull sheets off your truck/van onto a tilting lift cart and then shove them right off onto the CNC, you then only have to pick up MUCH smaller parts at the end of the process and assemble them while the CNC cuts the next sheet. It's a big investment, but if you're already doing 5 kitchens a year and looking to ramp up from there, the productivity gain would be huge.

[Jim Dwight]

I am an amateur so I will try to be brief. Peter Millard - 10 minute workshop - has several good videos about 3 different track saw hinging systems for crosscuts. If you haven't seen them I would review them. The Festool hinge is the cheapest of the 3 he reviews - it is not cheap junk.

I think upgrading your track saw setup may give you the repeatability, accuracy, and speed at far lower cost than replacing your table saw with a slider. If I am doing a lot of crosscuts I use a stop on my track saw cutting station. Not hard at all to incorporate.

I've only used a sliding table saw a little but it obviously has advantages too.

[Richard Coers]

Reducing labor costs is the fastest way to make money in a business. Moving pieces from the track saw station to the table saw takes time and possible damage sliding pieces around. Then there is a big tax savings when you deprecate the machine. Next as mentioned is accuracy. Unless you have a fence system on that track station, you have to pull your tape measure way too many times. Cabinet parts make for a lot of repetitive cutting. You also can get a scoring blade on the slider and have perfect veneer cuts, both sides. Finally I'd suggest you forget the slider and invest in a CNC. With that you get an optimization software, and a machine cutting parts while you stage more material. It also gives you a machine to cut round or oval tables, curved chair parts, and a dead precise template making machine for the occasional odd project. I read a great story years ago where the cabinet shop invested in machinery instead of employees. A guy and his wife did 2-3 kitchens a month with a CNC, edgebander, and doweling machine. The last benefit is to your body. You'll have a much healthier back by not reaching over the sheets using the track saw. Take that advice from a 70 year old ex business owner.

[Keegan Shields]

Jonathan,

I think the right question is "How much more revenue could I do if I upgraded to a slider?" If the answer is none, then stick with your current setup. If you had two or three kitchen projects last year that you weren't able to get to because of time limitations, then buying a slider is a no brainer. Cabinet shops use them because they are faster and can leave a nicer surface finish on some materials (scoring blade).

On the other hand, if you don't have additional projects you want to take that require processing sheet goods, then perhaps your current setup works well enough and the capital would be better invested in a different area of your business. (or saved to get you though a recession, injury, etc.)

If you are looking to grow your business, I would assess where your current bottlenecks are and come up with solutions for that. Sounds like that a slider might help, but what about a part-time or full-time employee?

[johnny means]

A good operator can break down 40 sheets of plywood into cabinet parts before lunch on a slider. All with very little attention to settings and accuracy. I don't even want to think about doing that with a track saw.

[Jonathan Jung]

This has been very helpful! It is easy, at 31 years old, to not calculate properly the bodily wear and tear. Even a half sheet of walnut ply with the MDF "armour" layer, those are heavy on the back! I think I'll update the OP to include some of the Qs raised and suggestions made.

johnny means, that is the type of info I'm looking for. Did you work in a cabinet shop breaking down ply? I can easily do 20 sheets in that time using my method. 40 is a lot.

The point raised about straightlining lumber is good. Rather than 1-3 passes on the jointer, 1 pass on the saw is good. I'm jointing material several hours a week currently. So that's maybe an hour of savings each week?

CNC, yes, that's a good point. It would do wonders, but seems niche to cabinet making and templating. Other tasks I do which would ask for a slider include sizing and trimming doors, drawer fronts, furniture panels, and folded mitres.

So much of my work is one-off, I'm still thinking the slider is the better choice before the CNC, because even if I had the CNC I'd still be wishing I had a slider. Does that seem fair?

Keegan, what you're saying is spot on. At the end of the day, what I need from a slider is an increase in sales, with the same labour output. A good deal on a slider, say $4000 all said with setup, depreciated over 3 years, would need an increase of $111 in sales a month. Not much, 1-1.5 hrs labour. But if that slider cost $15,000, sales need go up $417 a month.

Jeff, what percentage of your builds are cabinetry? Do you find yourself using the slider where the CNC can't?

[Steve Jenkins]

Of long ago using a slider I broke down 23 sheets of ply in about an hour and a half. It was for a wall of lockers with drawers below. Did not include the drawers. I’m 73.

[John TenEyck]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John

[Jim Becker]

CNC, yes, that's a good point. It would do wonders, but seems niche to cabinet making and templating.

The majority of cabinet work has moved to CNC in the industry at this point...it's not really niche like it was a decade ago for smaller shops. It's a lot more affordable these days to the smaller professional shop, too, and that's with actual industrial quality machines, not lighter kit type setups.

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John

John, it's not necessarily the bits, although typical sheet goods cutouts are done full depth with compression tooling in production shops, often .375" diameter tooling for .75" material. A lot of the edge quality challenges that come with smaller machines is from deflection of the machine itself.

[Chris Parks]

Health issues are important as anyone older will tell you and the one health issue often forgotten in production work in the long term is dust control. Fixed machines will enable far better dust control than a glorified hand saw of any description and for anyone in the production business good dust control is essential of you intend to do it long term. Is your health a primary consideration to you, countless people have been forced to give up their job due to dust issues and a lot of them have had their life shortened because of it.

[Jonathan Jung]

The majority of cabinet work has moved to CNC in the industry at this point...it's not really niche like it was a decade ago for smaller shops. It's a lot more affordable these days to the smaller professional shop, too, and that's with actual industrial quality machines, not lighter kit type setups.

I guess what I meant was that a 3-axis CNC is only going to cut flat shapes, and not be good at folding miter joints, straightlining lumber, jointery, etc. Maybe I'm wrong on this and they are more capable than what I've seen them do.

[David Zaret]

i have both a CNC, and a slider. 99% of my plywood cabinet carcass components are done on the CNC, and with good 3/8" compression cutters, and good plywood, i get edges that are so clean i can cut myself on the edge. the slider does a nice job as well, the cut quality is comparable. unfortunately, the plywood i've used lately has been terrible.

i feel that the variables in your decision involve 1) the shop space you have, and 2) your budget. your track saw can't hold a candle to a slider for efficiency, speed, and accuracy.. but, sliders big enough to cut full sheets take up a huge amount of floor space, and are expensive. CNCs good enough to make multiple kitchens a year are expensive. what are you able to do? if you have a huge shop, and a deep budget, get a slider to replace your track saw. if you can't afford a slider (in space or budget), then work up to it... but if you goal is to cut carcass components, consider a CNC first.

[Jim Becker]

I guess what I meant was that a 3-axis CNC is only going to cut flat shapes, and not be good at folding miter joints, straightlining lumber, jointery, etc.

That's correct. A three axis machine "can" do lots of joinery cutting, but it's not necessarily the most efficient way to use the machine because of the jigs and setup required.

BTW, straight-lining is one of my favorite things about the slider. My typical workflow is to flatten and thickness first (I rough cut components to size first...I hate putting really long boards through the milling process unless they have to stay long in the actual project) and then straight-line on the slider. Ripping to width is either on the wagon using a parallel jig or Friz and Franz jig or old school using the fence if I must.

BTW, while I only have a 4x4 CNC, I still have opted to use it for some cabinet projects because it required less lifting. It's not as efficient as with a larger machine, but golly gee wiz those pieces are actually have shapes that are incredibly accurate! :D

[Dave Sabo]

Jeff, what bits are you using in your CNC that give you cuts equal to a sawblade? Nothing I use in my CNC (straight router bits nor spiral end mills) comes close to the smoothness I get from a blade in my TS, and that requires sanding where the TS does not. I'd really like to know what CNC bits will give me TS quality finish. Thanks.

John


You should give Vortex a call and discuss your needs if you're not getting results on par with a tablesaw with your current CNC tooling.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Jeff, what percentage of your builds are cabinetry? Do you find yourself using the slider where the CNC can't?



Lately, close to 90% cabinetry, but I've got a barstool design that sells through a local upholstery shop that moves a couple dozen units throughout the year in 3-6 qty batches. I couldn't sell them a single one if I was doing it all old-school, especially considering I've got to sneak them in between a full workload of larger projects.
I have not used for the slider for sheet goods, other than breaking down scraps/drops from the CNC. I will say, if I had to do a melamine job (almost never anymore), I have considered the slider could have an advantage for shelves, simply due to speed, though I've not tried it yet. Fact is, after initial setup, I removed the crosscut outrigger, and only put it on once to clean up some miters recently on a particularly funky mirror frame top. I have a smaller scaled miter fence that came with the SCM, so an 8' capacity outrigger is just in the way 99% of the time.

John, I know exactly what you mean about the difference between a well tuned saw with decent blade vs. edge quality of cut on the CNC. The saw does win out with a more laser-cut and polished look, but I almost never have a plywood edge that doesn't get at least edge-banded or a face frame attached, so it generally is no concern at all. I could see, if you're doing lots of exposed edges with something like Baltic birch and need absolute perfection for a modern piece of furniture that this could be a concern. However, even with my "tinker-toy" grade Shopbot, the ply edge results are absolutely beautiful, unless you get out a magnifying glass, you do not really notice the slight ripple that the bit produces. I have gravitated to 3/8 compression bits by either Whiteside or Onsrud, and am very, very satisfied with the results. As another here stated - you can cut yourself easily on the crisp edges it produces, especially on melamine.

CNC joinery: I used to use a wall-mounted Wood-Rat for mortises and tenons, but the Shopbot has about 8-10" over-travel at the far end, so I can now throw a jig on that end, clamp up and batch out beautiful, highly accurate tenons off the end. It really is a joy to watch that spindle spiral down the cheeks as it produces a tenon, accurate down to a couple thousandths.
Again, if I've got a curved back leg for a chair to cut on the CNC, I always squeeze in the mortises on the face that is up, just to knock out one more bit of joinery while it's running. I often punch domino mortises in this fashion. I know miter-folds can be done on a CNC, but you need some monster-bits that my 2.5HP spindle is just not built for. Here's where I'd turn around and head back to the slider...

jeff

[Bill Dufour]

I see used panel saws on C-list all the time for 500-1200. That seems like a decent price to consider compared to a dedicate track saw. How accurate are they?
Bill D

[Richard Coers]

If you want to see creative furniture done with a lot of CNC parts. http://pearcepearce.com/available-to-order

[Mike Wilkins]

I have watched several YouTube videos by an English woodworker named Peter Millard with the 10 minute workshop. He has completed several large case builds using only a track saw and router table and seems to have had good success. His workshop is not much larger than a large closet and he has adapted his working methods to turn out some fine work. If space is not an issue, a slider with a lift table to get the sheet goods onto the slider will let you get some accurate and repeatable cuts.
If you are expanding and getting more and more jobs, and have the space, a slider with the ability to rip 8-footers might be a good way to go.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, it's absolutely true that one can do the work with a track saw. But the OP is in a professional/production situation. I'll also be honest that when I first moved into my temporary shop here at the new place, I tried to make do with just the track saw with tracks and MFT but it was darn frustrating and awkward in the space I have available. I ended up compromising and picking up a used cabinet saw to use until I have my shop building and can get a slider back in play. Full disclosure: I'm not doing work for others at this point, unlike the OP.

[Patrick Kane]

First, whats your budget? Is your business stable enough that you are comfortable financing $25,000+? If your budget is only $5,000, then you can start to think about a used sliding table saw, and yes, it will crush a track saw/cabinet saw combo. Ive only flirted with small CNCs, and really, anything under $10,000 for a benchtop machine seems like garbage. Unfortunately for you, a 3x4 or 2x4 capacity is a almost useless for cabinet work, so now you are talking $18,000-25,000 for a 4x8 Stinger I, Shopbot PRSalpha Laguna Swift, etc. It seems like the guys that have 'been there, done that' are telling you the CNC upgrade is very much worth it. In the end, i think you will end up with both, its just which one do you get first?

I dont know what your current setup is, but 4-5 years ago i sold a kapex, MFT, maxed out jessem router table, and delta unisaw to buy a used Felder KF700. Seriously, those 4 tools got me to within about $800 to the used Felder, and the only one i went back to replace a year later is the router table.

[Kevin Jenness]

When I worked in a shop that had both a track saw and a full size sliding table saw I would have received the side eye at best and more likely a good razzing if I had suggested using the track saw for dicing up sheet goods. Keep it for situations where it makes sense to bring the tool to the material - sitework and pieces too big to move easily.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm a carpenter, I essentially CNC build houses. We design homes and use some seriously cool tech to layout in the field and on the jigs, then build the houses in the shop to be set up on site. I'm comfortable with CNC and tech. That being said, I intentionally keep my shop non CNC because for the life of me I cannot figure out how to get a super expensive router to pay for itself with the work we do. Wish I could justify one.

That all being said, I'd buy a slider over anything else if only for the extremely fast ability to straight line rip long boards. Squaring off an edge of something 8' plus is a very common function. Unless you are outsourcing doors, you probably have to deal with this too. It's also pretty surprising how many sheets of square ply aren't square. Hard to catch and deal with that on a track saw tablesaw approach. I used your approach before I could get a slider, I don't even own a track saw now.

[Ronald Blue]

I have no dog in this fight and no cabinet shop experience either. However I know enough about the mechanics of both a track saw and a slider to know that there isn't really a comparison. I think others have said the same thing but in the time it takes to get the track saw setup for the first cut you could have that same sheet ripped into ribbons if you so desired. The time to put it on the slider or on the table you currently use is the same. There it ends. You state that you want to grow your business and unless the slider that's close by you has issues it's a no brainer. I have a Excalibur sliding attachment and while I haven't done any sheet goods it's abundantly clear just crosscutting long boards that it would make it much easier to handle sheet goods. This is just a poor mans slider but it's functional. Let us know what you decide.

[Dave Sabo]

At 3-4 kitchens a year it really doesn't matter what you use to cut em up. That simply isn't the kind of volume that will pay for a significant capital expenditure on any tool.

You've got to increase marketing, advertising and sales to a level that will allow you to comfortably assume the debt incurred . And factor in that the market could easily turn down like it did in 08/09. The bank will still want their payment whether you are selling / making kitchens or not.

I'd look into outsourcing boxes / drawers and maybe even doors to free up time to increase sales before I took on debt to accomplish the same thing.

[Jonathan Jung]

I wish I could show how I use the tracksaw/tablesaw together. Usually the tracksaw is used for only two cuts per sheet. The rest is on the tablesaw. I use the tracksaw for the initial straight edge and the first crosscut, so there is only 1 measurement to pull per sheet.

From what I am hearing, the advantages to the slider are:

* faster breaking down sheetgoods
* potentially less user fatigue breaking down sheetgods
* significantly faster straightlining of long lumber
* faster repetitive crosscuting of panels/doors/drawer fronts
* safer for operations that would otherwise require standing behind the material using the fence
* accurate repetitive crosscuts in wide timber

Dave Sabo and Steve Rozmiarek, you hit the nail on the head. The question is, at my volume, will such a space and financial commitment pay for itself. At about 220 sqft required for a 10' slider, the space is the largest factor at this point. My shop is 2100 sqft and I'd have to rearrange some larger equipment.

I should mention I do have a 16" jointer with a 101" table length, so straightlining long boards isn't too bad.

My father is playing around with the idea of getting involved with the business by getting a CNC and learning how to run it.

What about outsourcing all my carcass parts to a local shop with a CNC? I know of a couple shops on the E coast that do this. Problem is, I can't find any in my area that are willing to offer this service to me.

[Michael Schuch]

I see used panel saws on C-list all the time for 500-1200. That seems like a decent price to consider compared to a dedicate track saw. How accurate are they?
Bill D

My $400 short stroke Ema sliding too a good bit of work to get up and running and I had to make my own moving table fence but now that I am nearing to start using it I am very pleased with the results!
479667

I don't make my living with woodworking so the time investment was not an issue for me. I would assume in a production shop that a "project" saw would not make much sense.

[Kevin Jenness]

At about 220 sqft required for a 10' slider, the space is the largest factor at this point. My shop is 2100 sqft and I'd have to rearrange some larger equipment.

What about outsourcing all my carcass parts to a local shop with a CNC? I know of a couple shops on the E coast that do this. Problem is, I can't find any in my area that are willing to offer this service to me.

With a cutting table next to your tablesaw, aren't you already using that much space for cutting parts?

Maybe no cnc job shops on Whidbey Island, but I guarantee there are in Seattle. I have done one large job with the box parts outsourced and shipped in a crate via LTL truck. You have to partner with the right shop and it may not save a great deal of money but it will allow greater throughput with no capital investment.

[Michael Schuch]

The only CNC cabinet shop I have ever had the pleasure of visiting used CNC bridge saws for all of their sheet goods. They could tear down a 4x8 panel to carcass pieces in under 2 minutes with only a couple match sticks of wasted material.

[Erik Loza]

No dog in this fight but if a track saw isn’t getting it done for you, just buy a new slider. You could get a totally capable panel-sized 1-ph. Italian or Austrian machine with scoring delivered for less than $15K. Full warranty, guaranteed availability of spare parts, etc. Unless you are doing weird shapes or want to machine face profiles into MDF (which you might?), a basic slider will always be cheaper and faster than a router in a scenario like yours. I 100% guarantee that if a new 9’ slider magically appeared in front of your shop to tomorrow, you’d find a way to fit it in. Just my 2-cents and good luck with your quest.

Erik

[Kevin Jenness]

a basic slider will always be cheaper and faster than a router in a scenario like yours.

Erik

For simply cutting out parts that is true. For efficiency in processing cabinet parts including system holes and assembly machining a cnc will win out and allow you to be doing other things in the meantime.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

My $400 short stroke Ema sliding too a good bit of work to get up and running and I had to make my own moving table fence but now that I am nearing to start using it I am very pleased with the results!


I don't make my living with woodworking so the time investment was not an issue for me. I would assume in a production shop that a "project" saw would not make much sense.

Michael, I have that same riser kit under my Felder, lol! Tool designers must all be 5' tall.

[Michael Schuch]

Michael, I have that same riser kit under my Felder, lol! Tool designers must all be 5' tall.

LOL!

I actually ended up making a mobile base for it. It is about 4" higher than stock currently and I think I might add some blocks to raise it a couple more inches. Stock height is for sure too low for my back!


479762

[Erik Loza]

For simply cutting out parts that is true. For efficiency in processing cabinet parts including system holes and assembly machining a cnc will win out and allow you to be doing other things in the meantime.

Kevin, I don’t disagree but it’s worth mentioning that, especially in the context of this forum, the CNC’s most users are running here are nowhere near as fast as a true industrial router. Actual cutting speed might be the same but that’s pretty much it. Everything else “aside from the cutting” will take A LOT longer.

FWIW, I dealt with too many shops to count that got it all done on a slider (or regular cabinet saw) and Blum presses.

Erik

[Rich Engelhardt]

What about outsourcing all my carcass parts to a local shop with a CNC? I know of a couple shops on the E coast that do this. Problem is, I can't find any in my area that are willing to offer this service to me.Let me toss this out.
How about you become the guy that does the outsource work?

You can buy the CNC, use it for what you need it for, then in your slack time, you can take on CNC work.

[Jonathan Jung]

Erik, I totally know what you mean about making room if a slider showed up one day. If I got convinced that a slider will be in my shop for decades to come, I may just finance a new one.

Rich, That's a good point. However, I never have slack time. But the real reason is that I want to be in the business of furniture and cabinets, not signs / carvings / plaques / gadgets / toys / and everything else every soccer mom finds on Etsy. I once posted a picture of some laser engraving a friend did for my business. Next thing I know I was getting all sorts of messages from people wanting me to engrave small one-off things they found on Pinterest. And I know they wouldn't want to pay for it.

Now, if I could become the guy that other shops use for CNC templates, cabinet panels, slab flattening, such larger pieces, then I could set my dad up to run it. That would be a good idea.

[Nick Crivello]

With a cutting table next to your tablesaw, aren't you already using that much space for cutting parts?



This goes along with what I think many people miss; if you're breaking sheet goods with a cabinet saw it's essentially the same working area when you throw in the infeed/outfeed space. Add yet another space if you're going to use a track saw for that task. Yes, you can combine the cabinet saw/assembly table/track saw work areas but it's worth considering.

I squeezed a 10' 10hp Felder into my little 425sq ft workspace, don't think I'll be giving it up anytime soon.

[John Kananis]

Kind of situational though. I have enough space to run a full sheet of ply through my cabinet saw but use a track saw with a cut table in a different room because it's a bunch easier to handle (for me) that way. I would absolutely love to have a slider but I can't combine the space from 2 seperate rooms to do so.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Now, if I could become the guy that other shops use for CNC templates, cabinet panels, slab flattening, such larger pieces, then I could set my dad up to run it. That would be a good idea.There you go!
The other aspect of this is - it gives you another path to go down should something go South.
As a one person operation, geared towards doing one specialized type of income generation, you're pretty much screwed if you get busted up in an accident and can't wrestle sheet goods around for a few months.

[Jim Becker]

Now, if I could become the guy that other shops use for CNC templates, cabinet panels, slab flattening, such larger pieces, then I could set my dad up to run it. That would be a good idea.

That was actually what I was generating income from my CNC from while the business was running. I found that the collaborative work was the most rewarding in every way, and not just for the money. Templates, chair seats, patterns, etc. But over the long term, the slider was still "the love of my life" for a lot of the woodworking. The CNC came later and was icing on the cake, as it were.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

Table saw scratches my plywood. That’s where my track saw comes in.