Teach us about rasps and floats

[Keegan Shields]

There is a ton of info on the web about the more common woodworking hand tools (chisels, planes, saws) but what about rasps and floats? What’s the difference in application? How do these tools fit into the tool continuum from axe to sandpaper?

What brands and models would you recommend to start with?

Thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Keegan, rasps and floats are very useful for shaping and finishing.

Here is an old post on the subject > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?255103

Here is another on Riffler style rasps > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?295305

Floats are another subject all together. Someone posted a link to a video on grinding a 90º bevel on a chisel, a kind of one tooth float. It worked so well for me on an old 1/2" chisel that a 1/8" & 1/4" chisel were purchased to make a couple more for my kit.

As for brands to start with, my only experience is with the Auriou and serve me quite well.

Here is a post on a comparison between Auriou and Logier rasps > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?250809 < Both are of the best quality.

jtk

[Jack Frederick]

While no authority on the topic I have a couple Auriou rasps. One the 12” I think, 9 grain is a terrific tool. The other, I don’t see in their catalog now is a shorter combo unit. Pointed and curved on one end curved rectangular on the other. I may pick up the Modelers from LV soon for some shaping I have to do. I have two Lie Nielsen floats. One the 1/4”, the other a 1x4” blade. Both the rasps and floats have been very good as the need has come up. I didn’t know I needed them, but I do. Buy’em! You will be happy that you did

[Richard Wile]

Here are a couple of articles I wrote for F&C a few years back. All still very relevant today!

I think that Rasps are under-appreciated and are incredibly useful, but like most tools, quality really matters here and the hand-stitched ones are the best in my experience. I use both Auriou and Liogier, both from France. The joinery float which is much like a planemaker's float has many uses in a hand tool shop, but also a hybrid shop as it is a great tool for cleaning up machine marks and finetuning a flat surface in many types of joints.



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z4SMGPAMSrjYb9kDLg3iWE5g5v8D5JR9/view?usp=sharing


https://drive.google.com/file/d/11XM28_Bk3vrv5zfbEw3aqkFT88gVgtqy/view?usp=sharing

[Jim Koepke]

fine tuning a flat surface in many types of joints.

Yes, at times my fine rasp, 15 grain, has made the difference to my dovetails being a fine fit.

jtk

[Mark Rainey]

Keegan, rasps are good for shaping wood, especially curved surfaces. Coarse than sandpaper. Some never use rasps, instead relying on spokeshaves and carving gouges. I have several quality rasps - Logier, Corradi, Auriou. For a beginner, I highly recommend the Shinto Rasp for $25. You will get bang for the buck with the Shinto.

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[Keegan Shields]

Thanks for the replies so far. Lots of good reading and recommendations.

Mark, I was primarily thinking about blending chair parts and shaping curves. I'll take a look at the Shinto rasp.

Its always hard to spend big money on a quality product I haven't used, but i think its cheap in the long run.

Any particular grain rating you would start with?

[Mark Rainey]

If you are going with Logier, get the 11 grain cabinet makers rasp. It is equivalent to the old Nicholson 50 rasp. It is finer than the 8 grain cabinet makers rasp, which is equivalent to the old Nicholson 49. I have both. Many woodworkers got by with the Nicholson 49 & 50. And try the Shinto. It is a buzzsaw.

[Andrew Hughes]

If you get a Nicholson 49 and or 50 send it to Boggs for sharpening. Or any file that’s seen better days.
He really does a stellar job.
https://boggstool.com/

[Scott Winners]

I got a factory new Nicholson 4-in-1 for Christmas back in the 1970s and it served me well. Still have it. It has a half round and flat each of rasp and file. I should send it in to get refreshed, there was a thread here in the last couple months about an outfit I think in California.

Anyroad, between age and use my old Nicholson was not quite meeting my needs for surface finish. Based on too much reading, I finally spent the money to get a left and right handed pair of the nine inch Auriou cabinet maker's rasps in grain 10. It was kind of a gamble getting the left hander to go with the right, but I am glad I did. When I use the right hander with my left hand, the surface is not so good. The first time I used one of them I got over the price. Very good tool.

I have no experience with the Liogier's, but see consistently good things, even again in this thread. Never heard of a shinto rasp until just now.

For now I am happy with the grain 10 Auriou's. I might think about a pair in grain 12 or 14 later for hardwoods, but the grain 10 pair I have are working fine for my current needs in hickory and white oak.

No experience with floats. I was thinking about making wooden planes, bought a DVD from L-N and moved on. I cannot recommend current production Nicholson.

[Prashun Patel]

A rasp is nice for shaping when a plane or spokeshave won’t fit or can’t handle the grain.

Floats are used more by plane makers although some people use them (or a rasp) to tweak a joint as a substitute for a chisel. I do not own a float.

I own a coarse and fine dragon rasp from Stewart Macdonald. It might be the best secret weapon I own. If you every try a maloof style piece of furniture or make a guitar, rasps work really well for sculpting.

[Richard Wile]

Any particular grain rating you would start with?

I have a Liogier luthier's rasp that has 11 grain on one side and 13 on the other, both edges are safe (no teeth). This looks like a normal file, the 11 will remove material and the 13 will clean it up. I find I am reaching for this one the most with flat work. the other is my 12" Auriou Cabinetmaker's rasp which is curved on one face and flat (actually slightly convex, unlike a flat float) on the other, works great for shaping curved pieces. The Grain is 10. the Auriou 10 and the Liogier 13 leave scratches like 80 grit sandpaper.

The choice of grain is always a tradeoff, the more coarse grain will remove material more quickly but lave deeper scratches that must be removed. This is easy enough, you just have to plan ahead with your material removal so you don't go too far with the rough rasp. the shinto is a very coarse rasp that is designed to hog away material, much like a grain 6-8 rasp.

If I were buying one to do flat work the 11/13 Liogier Luthier's rasp gives lots of flexibility for flat work and a medium Auriou Cabinetmakers rasp (10) is a great place to start.

The finest grain ones (14-15) will remove very little material so give you great control over fine-tuning a joint, and they leave scratches about the size of 120 grit sandpaper.

And make sure you buy either right or left handed, as the wrong setup will leave excess scratches on your work and the teeth point the wrong way for effective cutting.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

+ 1 for Boggstool. Good files are not cheap. Boggs really brings them back. I found a big Farriers Rasp while cleaning up an old dump. It is a goner, but I am sending it in just for fun. I have a list of Gorbets I am saving up for.

Products - Files, American Pattern - Grobet USA (https://www.grobetusa.com/files-american-pattern/)

Swiss Pattern Precision Files (https://www.grobetusa.com/files-swiss-pattern-precision/)

[Luke Dupont]

If you get a Nicholson 49 and or 50 send it to Boggs for sharpening. Or any file that’s seen better days.
He really does a stellar job.
https://boggstool.com/


You can sharpen files???

Wow, had no idea.

[Jim Koepke]

You can sharpen files???

Wow, had no idea.

Not sure how Boggstool.com does it but many an old machinist would soak them in Muriatic acid (other acids can also be used).

Search > acid sharpening file < or > muriatic acid sharpening file < for more information.

jtk

[Andrew Hughes]

I visited Boggs shop. He uses high pressure steam with a abrasive media to sharpen the the teeth. That’s as far as I can say. After he’s done a Nicholson rasp is far better cutting then new.
He also sells new rasps that he’s sharped.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have heard tell of an acid bath + mineral salts dip for reconditioning files. Probably a task to leave to professionals.
Some files Mr. Boggs won't touch. In my last batch one came back dipped in black paint and labeled "Reject". It is one someone had given me, I think it was a harbor freight.

[Scott Winners]

the Auriou 10 and the Liogier 13 leave scratches like 80 grit sandpaper.

I don't find this to be true at my shop with my Auriou grain 10s. I might be using them wrong, but in Doug For and poplar, taking a diagonal stroke I am finding visibly smooth surfaces more or less equivalent to sanding with 220ish grit. Maybe 150
grit, but not 80. If I push them straight, yes, near about 80 grit.

This is exactly where having both a left and right is working for me. If I am coming out of a corner somewhere and need to hold the rasp in my left hand and move the rasp left to right as I push it away from me, the LH rasp leaves a much better finish the the RH rasp would in that situation.

I bet folding money there is a youtube showing how to use these fool things, but I have bigger problems just now. I did page through everything on youtube in the Auriou channel back a year or two ago, all they had posted then was about how they make the product, I didn't see anything about how to use it at that time.

[Mark Rainey]

I believe you cannot get a finish ready surface off any rasp. I find it challenging to get a finish surface using a file which is finer than a rasp.

[Jim Koepke]

I believe you cannot get a finish ready surface off any rasp. I find it challenging to get a finish surface using a file which is finer than a rasp.

Sometimes my surfaces are left unfinished off of a rasp or float:

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They may get a rub with my saturated oil/wax rag.

Over time being handled tends to shine them up a bit.

jtk

[Mark Rainey]

That is a fine dovetail handle Jim. And your oil/wax finish works nicely. As far as fine furniture, I still believe you cannot get a finish ready surface on any rasp. Files give a finer finish, in most cases still not good enough. In the past when I asked Neanders if they stopped with a hand plane finish, almost all admitted to using sandpaper afterwards. (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293028-Handplane-courage&highlight=)

[Jim Koepke]

That is a fine dovetail handle Jim. And your oil/wax finish works nicely. As far as fine furniture, I still believe you cannot get a finish ready surface on any rasp. Files give a finer finish, in most cases still not good enough. In the past when I asked Neanders if they stopped with a hand plane finish, almost all admitted to using sandpaper afterwards. (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293028-Handplane-courage&highlight=)

Thanks for the compliment Mark.

Sandpaper will be used on my projects when necessary, not very often. The other thing being most of my projects are only finished with stain.

Just went through the link on your query. Sandpaper seems to have its use in some areas and not needed in others. Since learning more about plane use my sandpaper usage is mostly when working on the lathe.

Sometimes the surface left by a rasp or float isn't a matter for concern when used to help fit a joint.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

That is a fine dovetail handle Jim. And your oil/wax finish works nicely. As far as fine furniture, I still believe you cannot get a finish ready surface on any rasp. Files give a finer finish, in most cases still not good enough. In the past when I asked Neanders if they stopped with a hand plane finish, almost all admitted to using sandpaper afterwards. (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293028-Handplane-courage&highlight=)

+1 to Mark’s comments. LOVE my hand stitched rasps- IMHO well worth cost.Great for quickly getting curved shapes. A half round file is quick way to smooth surfacethat is finish worthy after a little sandpaper. Quality rasps are tools are tools I wish I would have added to my kit much earlier.’
Best, Mike

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My coarsest one is an inexpensive import from Grizzly. It is not enjoyable to use on Maple but it will really tear into Mahogany for quick removal of excess bulk. I follow up with the Nicholson Cabinet.

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[Thomas McCurnin]

I got into a spirited discussion at Homestead Heritage School on the subject of rasps. Contrary to the opinions, here, there are very few tasks suited to a rasp, except for shaping corners, and even with those, they taught us to use chisels, planes, spokeshaves and scrapers and hid the rasps from the students. The notion that a rasp should be used on a dovetail or tenon would send chills down Paul Sellers backside.

That said, at my home shop I have a couple of the French rasps and still use them, but after weeks of instruction, I somehow feel guilty about doing so. I'm not sure why.

[Jim Koepke]

The notion that a rasp should be used on a dovetail or tenon would send chills down Paul Sellers backside.

Great, some of his videos have sent shivers down mine.

Learning the skill to use all of the tools one has available is a building block of being an artist or craftsperson.

jtk

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Continuing to learn how to shape the heel of a guitar or mandolin neck with a rasp is an uplifting experience for me. So is the draw knife and the spokeshave.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Great, some of his videos have sent shivers down mine.

Learning the skill to use all of the tools one has available is a building block of being an artist or craftsperson.

jtk

Great response, Jim. You made me laugh out loud, with the only problem being the two streams of coffee spurting onto my keyboard.

The bottom line for me in woodworking, like a lot of things, is that there are always more than a couple ways to skin a cat or accomplish a task, in this case, people who use rasps for all manner of things, and those who rarely use them. Its just another tool in a tool box and some people are more comfortable with some tools and not others.

As a framing carpenter, a rasp and a dull 1" chisel and funky Stanley Block Plane were always in my pouch. As a finish carpenter and furniture builder, I used to use rasps to angle the ends of tenons and trim the cheeks. I will admit into being shamed in not using rasps after several weeks of indoctrination by my instructors. But we always had razor sharp chisels and gorgeous block planes in our pouch and I was taught that both were more accurate. I don't know enough to say one way or another. I'm a mere apprentice in the handtool world.

[Jim Koepke]

But we always had razor sharp chisels and gorgeous block planes in our pouch and I was taught that both were more accurate. I don't know enough to say one way or another. I'm a mere apprentice in the handtool world.

Compared to the average hardware store rasp a razor sharp chisel or block plane may be more accurate:

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Though in a tight dovetail a small file, rasp or float may be an easier fit.

In other cases:

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A rasp or other such tool might be easier to do the job.

Just a note to those who use a lathe… A file can take off material much faster than a piece of sandpaper. (DAMHIKT!)

jtk

[Michael Bulatowicz]

Great response, Jim. You made me laugh out loud, with the only problem being the two streams of coffee spurting onto my keyboard.

The bottom line for me in woodworking, like a lot of things, is that there are always more than a couple ways to skin a cat or accomplish a task, in this case, people who use rasps for all manner of things, and those who rarely use them. Its just another tool in a tool box and some people are more comfortable with some tools and not others.

As a framing carpenter, a rasp and a dull 1" chisel and funky Stanley Block Plane were always in my pouch. As a finish carpenter and furniture builder, I used to use rasps to angle the ends of tenons and trim the cheeks. I will admit into being shamed in not using rasps after several weeks of indoctrination by my instructors. But we always had razor sharp chisels and gorgeous block planes in our pouch and I was taught that both were more accurate. I don't know enough to say one way or another. I'm a mere apprentice in the handtool world.

I would argue that accurate is a matter of context; I would have had a great deal more trouble with accuracy on the curves of this saw handle using a bench chisel, but perhaps I’m simply lacking in skill. Rasps were highly valuable here; a block plane, not so much.
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[Jim Koepke]

I would argue that accurate is a matter of context; I would have had a great deal more trouble with accuracy on the curves of this saw handle using a bench chisel, but perhaps I’m simply lacking in skill. Rasps were highly valuable here; a block plane, not so much.
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Nice saw handle Michael, in fact there are rasps made specifically for stair makers and saw handles. They are likely very handy if one is doing a lot of saw handles or stair railings.

jtk

[George Wall]

I got into a spirited discussion at Homestead Heritage School on the subject of rasps. Contrary to the opinions, here, there are very few tasks suited to a rasp, except for shaping corners, and even with those, they taught us to use chisels, planes, spokeshaves and scrapers and hid the rasps from the students. The notion that a rasp should be used on a dovetail or tenon would send chills down Paul Sellers backside.

That said, at my home shop I have a couple of the French rasps and still use them, but after weeks of instruction, I somehow feel guilty about doing so. I'm not sure why.

I should note that Paul Sellers regularly uses a 2-sided Shinto rasp in his project videos for various shaping tasks.

One of the things that can surprise beginners (like myself) is how quickly a rasp can remove wood. Wouldn't take much for an overzealous student to shrink a tenon or dovetail to oblivion, especially in a softer wood. And the rasp leaves no shaving to glue back on.

[Mark Rainey]

Interesting discussion on the use of rasps, which is more revealing of the psychology of man then the mechanics of woodworking. Yes, they appear to be rough, brutal, tearing away at wood. And spokeshaves and carving gouges create such fine shavings. Some choose to avoid the violence of the rasp and seek the swoosh of the shaving. At times I have. Some seek to distinguish themselves from others because they avoid rasps. It is the nature of man to distinguish himself from others. Several of the finest hand tool woodworkers of the 21st century found rasps essential, including Gene Landon, Philip Lowe, and Allan Breed. They used them, so will I.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

They are a great tool for certain difficult jobs like shaping end grain, dealing with crazy grain around knots, etc. Some how I got started watching various Farriers and The Hoof GP on youTube. It seems the angle grinder is becoming the tool of choice for some Farriers, rather than the rasp.

[Jim Koepke]

It seems the angle grinder is becoming the tool of choice for some Farriers, rather than the rasp.

This could simply be due to electricity being more available in places where it wasn't until recently.

Most newer pick-up trucks provide an electrical outlet for working off the grid.

jtk

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have my dad’s Nicholson 49 & 50 rasps and about 30 files (not including my rifflers and jewelers), many of which were sharpened by Boggstool. These and sandpaper have always proven acceptable and I’ve never succumbed to the allure of expensive rasps. But since acquiring this https://www.jasonalonontoolmaker.com/shop/p/pushpull-shave
I find myself using the rasps, files and sandpaper a lot less.

It’s an incredible and versatile tool from an excellent and relatively unknown toolmaker. I have no affiliation with Jason, just a very satisfied customer. I discovered him due to another Creeker selling one of his adzes.