Help Me Pick a Plow Plane or Is It a Plough Plane

[Thomas McCurnin]

Typical use will be on 3/4 to 7/8" stock planing on edge for a a 1/4" groove about 3/8" deep for frame and panel construction. I'll also be using it for grooving a post, usually about 1.5" x 1.5" is typical, again to accept a panel for frame and panel construction. It needs to go both directions, as grain direction may vary on a single piece of stock. Bonus use would be a tongue bit, say 1/4", to make sure the panels fit the aforementioned groove would save some fitting time. I may have a use for it for inlay of boxes and beading down the road, but right now, the immediate use is frame and panel construction.

I used to use a 1/4" router bit in a table with a fence, but with frame and panel construction, I have to drop the wood onto a spinning router bit, which while not inherently dangerous, nevertheless always gives me the heebie jeebies.

I guess the choice is between a Veritas Plow Plane (do I need both LH and RH to go both directions for grain direction?) or a combination plane, like a Veritas 48 (again, do I need to switch fence settings on the 48 to accomplish this?). Money is not a factor. Quality tool, ease of use are the main factors here.

Having not owned any such plane, any help would be nice. I did read some old threads here on this, as well as looking at some Cossman, Wood Wright, and Sellers videos, but none of the addressed my specific issue.

Thanks in advance for all who respond.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..
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Hmmm..
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The ORIGINAL 7 planes in one..
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Makes a batch of noodles, too...
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YMMV...

[Scott Winners]

For the relatively small stock you are describing you could get by with one of the Veritas small plow planes, and make an accessory spacer for the fence so you can use it both right and left handed.


Beside the 1/4 grooving blade, there is a 1/4 inch tongue cutter for the same plane, outside width of the 1/4 tongue cutting blade...BRB I will measure mine... is 13/16ths of one inch.

I will see if I can find a pic of the spacer I made to use my RH small plow in grain that wants lefthanded attention.

[Scott Winners]

The wooden spacer I made to use my RH small plane in the LH configuration is pictured in this thread. https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?295995-LH-Veritas-plow-v-Veritas-combination-plane

Overall I find moving filister planes to be fussy, but Veritas the least fussy among the few types I have tried.

[Derek Cohen]

Typical use will be on 3/4 to 7/8" stock planing on edge for a a 1/4" groove about 3/8" deep for frame and panel construction. I'll also be using it for grooving a post, usually about 1.5" x 1.5" is typical, again to accept a panel for frame and panel construction. It needs to go both directions, as grain direction may vary on a single piece of stock. Bonus use would be a tongue bit, say 1/4", to make sure the panels fit the aforementioned groove would save some fitting time. I may have a use for it for inlay of boxes and beading down the road, but right now, the immediate use is frame and panel construction.

I used to use a 1/4" router bit in a table with a fence, but with frame and panel construction, I have to drop the wood onto a spinning router bit, which while not inherently dangerous, nevertheless always gives me the heebie jeebies.

I guess the choice is between a Veritas Plow Plane (do I need both LH and RH to go both directions for grain direction?) or a combination plane, like a Veritas 48 (again, do I need to switch fence settings on the 48 to accomplish this?). Money is not a factor. Quality tool, ease of use are the main factors here.

Having not owned any such plane, any help would be nice. I did read some old threads here on this, as well as looking at some Cossman, Wood Wright, and Sellers videos, but none of the addressed my specific issue.

Thanks in advance for all who respond.

Hi Thomas

I think that you meant to choose between the Veritas Small Plow with T&G accessory ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/AccessoryBladesfortheVeritasSmallPlow_html_m287f15 29.jpg


Veritas Combination plane ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados_html_575f5a2d.png

and LN #49, which has the advantage of being set up permanently ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheCompletedChests_html_57e72fc2.jpg

... but it lacks the flexibility and wide range of the Veritas planes.



For all, you still need a moving fillister for cross-grain planing ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheCompletedChests_html_23702d64.jpg


You only need one plane. You do not need left- and right handed planes. If you experience interlocked grain, add a micro 15 degree back bevel to the blade for a 60 degree high cutting angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Charles Guest]

If you're running grooves on figured stock with grain emerging and diving all over the place, I strongly suggest using a cutting gauge to define what will be the arris of the grooves, first. One bit of blown out grain and you've spoiled a stile or rail, and your day. If you're working totally by hand, you've also lost the time spend preparing that particular piece of stock and also the time spent composing the stiles and rails as to color and grain - usually a very significant investment of time in comparison to other tasks.

The chance that you'll always be able to run a groove with the grain, and not encounter reversing grain, is beyond remote. That said, cabinet door stiles and rails tend to look better, to my eye at least, when the grain is relatively straight and not extremely figured. However, the grain can be largely straight but run right off at the edge of what will be your groove. And when it blows out, it take a long splinter of wood with it -- not really recoverable unless it comes off really cleanly and you can glue it back on.

Sharpen up, define the groove with a cutting gauge, take very thin shavings to start. Once you're below surface, you might be able to give it a little more iron. The first passes are obviously the most critical.

[steven c newman]

Hmmm..
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hmmm..
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One cut with the grain (Ash) and the other against it...
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Dresses things up a bit.

A Stanley No. 45, with the basic set of 24 cutters runs about $100-$200....includes 2 sizes of tongue cutters (3/16" and 1/4") and a sash cutter, plus straight cutters and bead cutters.

Sargent also made a version....not sure IF Millers Falls did....

Does not NEED fancy "adapters", or any special fences...once one LEARNS how to use one of these planes...they become very easy to use..
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Have and USE 2 such planes....

[Chuck Hill]

Thanks Derek! I could have used that back bevel idea a few days ago plowing a groove into Padauk against the grain. I did not think of that, nor knifing the walls, until it was far too late. Padauk sure does splinter!

[Thomas McCurnin]

Thanks Steven.

It seems that the Stanley 45 might be exactly what I need. Wood Wright has a nice video on what the plane can do here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rrv-i03HJs

It also seems that the Stanley 45 is more versatile than its Veritas counterpart, something I find unusual, because Veritas usually copies and improves the old Stanley designs. I'm not sure why Veritas left off some of those extra features.

Finally it seems that the Stanley 45 is of the more collectable antique planes out there with high prices for a nearly complete set, subject to cleaning, and even higher prices for one that is mint in its original box (metal or cardboard). A history of the Stanley 45 can be found here: http://http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan6.htm

When purchasing one of these, is there any particular age or model of the Stanley 45 that I should look for, or any other issues of which I should be concerned?

[steven c newman]

On the later models, Stanley added a way to micro-adjust the fence....They also went with a rosewood fence...Older ones, the rods were threaded into the main body. Newer ones were not...They also went with a way to adjust the depth setting with a wheel....instead of a hammer...I have both, and prefer the wheel adjuster...makes things way easier.

Lot of these will be found without the front knob.....easy enough to replace...look for the models with a bolt holding the knob in place.....

You do not NEED that entire set(s) of cutters....basic set was just 24.....

The "Serious Money" would be the Stanley No. 55.......

[Jim Koepke]

When purchasing one of these, is there any particular age or model of the Stanley 45 that I should look for, or any other issues of which I should be concerned?

If you want to be able to switch it up between left hand & right hand use you need to get one with the rods held in the main casting with screws.

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The type with the adjustable fence is more desirable. Note the screw indicated by the arrow. Make sure it has that or the fence will not lock.

This is a type 12 or later. The knob is held on to the fence with a bolt instead of threads in the wood.

The #45 can be a bit difficult when first learning to use it. A #55 is even more difficult.

There more information in this post > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?121761 < scroll down to post #11.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Thomas, my preference would be the Veritas Small Plow. You will need to add the T&G kit to it. If the cost is a factor - and I have no idea of this - then the Stanley #45 is a definite option … but never the #55! That is a Swiss Army Knife-come-doorstop.

I had a #45 for a few decades and sold it after the Veritas Combination plane came to stay. Both the Stanley planes are taught and feel a part of the hand. The Small Plow is a delightful plough plane, and it is so much less to set up than a #45. After you are through making T&G joints, you will benefit from owning a dedicated groover. Plus the blades are just so much nicer.

This is an article I wrote on the T&G accessory: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/AccessoryBladesfortheVeritasSmallPlow.html

The downside of the Small Plow, unlike the #45, is the absence of nickers for cross grain planing. The Veritas Combination plane has nickers. However, it is a simple matter to scribe lines for walls to overcome this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chuck Hill]

I am with Derek and Patrick Leach on not wanting a 55. The Veritas is the very clear winner there. You may also consider a vintage Record 043. It is a small plane and dead simple to setup and use. It only came with three blades but as it has no micro adjust or special bedding requirements, you can use any straight blade up to 1/2" or so. It is also easy to get some O-1 bar stock and make your own blades. I have one and also the Veritas small plow. The 043 is the one that I reach to the most. I've had problems with both the depth stop and fence shifting on the Veritas when things don't go smoothly (like hitting a small knot). It is the one Veritas tool that I am not entirely thrilled with, but I have not had it very long.

[Derek Cohen]

I am with Derek and Patrick Leach on not wanting a 55. The Veritas is the very clear winner there. You may also consider a vintage Record 043. It is a small plane and dead simple to setup and use. It only came with three blades but as it has no micro adjust or special bedding requirements, you can use any straight blade up to 1/2" or so. It is also easy to get some O-1 bar stock and make your own blades. I have one and also the Veritas small plow. The 043 is the one that I reach to the most. I've had problems with both the depth stop and fence shifting on the Veritas when things don't go smoothly (like hitting a small knot). It is the one Veritas tool that I am not entirely thrilled with, but I have not had it very long.

Chuck, round knobs can loosen with all planes when they are tightened by fingers. A better method would have been thumb screws. What I have done on all my knobs is add a slot for a screwdriver. Here is an old photo ...

https://i.postimg.cc/k40kyjzy/Slots3-zps509a5113.jpg

An alternative is a plastic-faced set of grips (plastic to avoid marring the knurling).

I also have a Record #043. I use the Veritas Small Plow blades in it. Perfect fit and better steel. Larger selection of sizes as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Thomas McCurnin]

There is a hilarious rant about the Stanley 55 here: http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan8.htm with the author calling the plane ultimate punishment for mankind and adding that in 1897, when the Stanley 55 was invented, the inventor, Edmund Schade "devised a torture that knew no bounds betwixt Gods and mortals" Adding that "We should all be so lucky to be chained to a rock and have our livers eaten daily by an organ-hungry raptor than to suffer the agony of this contraption. Even the Chinese would have gladly abandoned their infamous drip, drip, drip of water to the forehead had they been on Stanley's favored nations tradelist. If there can be a ball and chain of planes, this is it, baby. Down in Australia this chunk of metal has been used as a doorstop (no lie). Here in America, it's been used as a woodworking tool. Now, you tell me which nation is more civilized?"

I'm a fan of buying a tool for specific purposes, and a tool which has limited function often does that function better than multi-function tools, like, well, a Swiss Army Knife. Right now, all I need is a quarter inch groove in stock, and I can plane the panels to fit that quarter inch slot. So a simple plow (plough) plane might be the answer.

[mike stenson]

I agree that the small veritas is a great choice. I reach for mine far more often than my 45. Which does make a great plough plane, the veritas is just somewhat easier to use. For tongue and groove, a matched set is really ideal in my opinion.

[steven c newman]

One fly in the ointment...availability.....whereas one can buy a #45 almost every day of the week and have it shipped.....and NOT have to worry about any "Back-ordered" for months at a time.

I have 2 45s. I can set one up to plane the groove, and the other to form the matching tongue. Had been know to use a T&G joint to form a box's corner joint. Aligns the joint like a spline, and gives a lot more glue surface, too.

Match Plane? Maybe go out and look into a Stanley No. 48 or 49. With just a swing of the fence, one can do BOTH the tongue AND the groove...

Fun fact: the #45 has about 1/2 the knobs of the Veritas. Because it does not NEED that many.....my Type 4 does have BRASS knobs ( with a slot for a screwdriver)...or.. I could replace the steel knobs on the Type 20 with brass IF I was in love with such things...I am not. IF someone else feels they NEED 100 brass knobs on a plane...

The Woodwright's Shop did an Episode about the combination planes....only once did Roy do anything with the 55...as, the 45 did almost all the other tasks.


There is one accessory to the #45...that comes in handy.....if you happen to be far "inland" from a board's edge....and need either a groove or bead...Stanley made a Cam Rest. It provides support between the plane and the fence....so the plane can not tilt over in the cut. Like for a stack of wide panels, that might need a bead, or flute right down the center line...Set the 45 up once, and do all the panels in that stack.

I have around $100 in each of my Stanley 45 planes.

No..I do NOT add any back bevel to my cutters. They are quite sharp, as is.... Cutters operate as Bevel Down.

Oh, and Stanley did supply both an instruction manual with each, they also supplied the screwdriver. And no extra cost.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Lie Neilsen's matched set of tounge and groove planes are not available anymore, with no date for delivery, and now sell for $1,500 on eBay.

A serviceable but not mint Record 043 runs about $100 for cutting grooves only, which is all I need right now.

A Veritas Plow Plane runs about $260, plus the blades, plus an attachment to run a tongue cutter if I later want to move to T&G.

The manual blade adjustment of the Record 043, the Record's lack of blade alignment with the skate, which apparently has to be set up with a straight edge, and the silly loose lever cap on the Record 043 makes the Veritas Plow Plane the probable winner for ease of use.

I want to especially thank Derek for his 2007 review of the Record 043, 044, and the Veritas Plow Plane which I ran across last night. It is a good read for anyone interested in the subject: http://inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Small%20Plow%20Plane.html

[mike stenson]

I paid $25 for a 1/2" matched set of wooden planes. You don't need a 78 or 79.

[Jim Koepke]

Another great plane for cutting grooves is a Stanley #50.

Here is a post of mine comparing the Veritas Small Plow with a Stanley #45 & #50 > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251419
jtk

[Justin Kwong]

Something to consider about the Veritas small plow plane is that there is a huge back order at the moment. Last I heard, there is around a 4 month wait for the plane after ordering. I ordered mine in the beginning of March and the backorder date keeps getting pushed out.

[Thomas McCurnin]

On Lee Valley's site, the naked plane shows available and ready to ship. The backorder is for the whole set, plane, large iron conversion kit, blade bag, and all the irons, about 20 of them.

If one is only interested in the plane and a couple of select cutters, it is available according to the web site. I got the plane and a couple of cutters, which is all I need presently.

[Jim Koepke]

If one is only interested in the plane and a couple of select cutters, it is available according to the web site. I got the plane and a couple of cutters, which is all I need presently.

You are sure to find the small plough plane a joy to use.

jtk

[Chuck Hill]

Thank you Derek. I have a pair of these (https://www.amazon.ca/Knipex-98-62-01-Insulated/dp/B00DEMWD9M/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3MZZ049DGHNU8&keywords=KNIPEX+plastic+pliers&qid=1652713671&sprefix=knipex+plastic+pliers%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-2) that I use. The are indeed invaluable with lots of metal knobs and such around the shop. I use it now on the Veritas Small Plow, I was just surprised to need it.

The fact that the Veritas blades fit the 043 was one of my reasons in acquiring it.

[Jack Dover]

Have and USE 2 such planes....

Sou your recommendation would be to own 2 combination planes? Coincidentally I was thinking about finding a second combo plane, but not being a huge fan of devices combining thousands of features, Stanley #50 is probably the most complex tool I'd consider.

[steven c newman]

I can get by using just the one....second one is because it's spurs/knickers are in place...first one doesn't have a way to use them anymore....hole for the bolt was stripped out.

Haven't found these planes to be all that "complex"....and are actually easy to set up....Must be something good about the #45...since Veritas saw fit to make a "knock-off copy" of them....I'll stick with the Original..

[Jim Koepke]

Must be something good about the #45...since Veritas saw fit to make a "knock-off copy" of them....I'll stick with the Original..

Yeah, right and today's F-150 is a "knock-off copy" of Henry Ford's Flat Bed Model-T.

The Veritas planes are a vast improvement to a concept from well over a century ago.

The last true "knock-off copy" of the Stanley #45 to cross my path was about 30 years ago in a Woodcraft store. It was made by Clifton and had a price tag of around $600.


Sou your recommendation would be to own 2 combination planes? Coincidentally I was thinking about finding a second combo plane, but not being a huge fan of devices combining thousands of features, Stanley #50 is probably the most complex tool I'd consider.

For many projects my #50 is preferred over the #45. It is especially preferred when cutting slots for the bottoms of drawers and boxes.

I like my Stanley #45s, and yes on occasion two or three of them are set up for different tasks on a single project.

Here is a post on making a double decker box using both a #50 and a #45 > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?286634 < The #45 was used to cut stopped slots.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I don't own a 45, but do own a couple of 55's. They're no harder to use for grooving than a 45.

My favorite plane for grooving is a grooving molding plane with the metal skate. I just bought one with a movable fence out of the Classified's here a couple of weeks ago, but haven't had a chance to use it yet. My others are all dedicated to one size groove. The only trouble with them is that the spacing from the edge is fixed. Any combination plane does not quite work as good since the cutter is mostly just hanging out in the air.

One of my grooving planes has a slightly narrowed iron to work with 1/4" plywood drawer bottoms. It's often quicker to grab that one to run drawer bottom grooves with than changing a router bit, and setting a router, or router table. A lot more fun, and quieter too.

[Derek Cohen]

If we wish to debate which the best plough, I could through into the ring one I built myself, from scratch ...

https://i.postimg.cc/HnGcMBz9/110.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/FztpKbJ2/111.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/d1z60bfs/114.jpg

... but I still prefer using the Veritas Small Plow for most grooves.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

So...how well does it do tongues for T&G joints like the OP was asking about?

[Derek Cohen]

So...how well does it do tongues for T&G joints like the OP was asking about?

Very slowly, Steven :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

How slowly..
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Made in Cincinnati, Ohio, back in 1864.....G. Roseboom....1/4" as set up, was able to use other width cutters. Meant to use as part of a "Match" set....one would cut the tongue, to match the groove thise plane would produce..

YMMV...

[Tony Shea]

I mean is money is no object how can you not go for a custom hand made one of a kind plough plane. I can't imagine ever owning such a piece of art but have drooled over such a plane for years. I would also love to own the HNT Gordon Moving Fillister plane but will probably never be able to pull the trigger on such a tool.

Having said this, I own both the LV Small Plow and the LV Moving Fillister and both work amazing. I have the original Small Plow so doesn't have all the features available these days but I don't really see myself needing them that often now that I do a lot more power tool work. I still love using my joinery planes and when set up correctly they work amazing.

https://cdn.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/leamy_IMG_4704.jpg

[steven c newman]

On a more practical scale...
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and..
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Milling a 3/16" tongue....then 5 minutes to change over to a plough plane..
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To plough the matching 3/16" groove...
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All to make a few corner joints..
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To make the corners of a Frame & Panels Chest..
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That won't need any hidden screws or nails....just some glue...and look the same width from either direction...
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In this case, that would be 3" wide.

Plane also made the grooves ( 1/4" x 1/4") to house the raised panels......

Stanley No. 45, Type SW T-20.....Roxton Pond, QUE. CAN.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Maybe I should start a new thread, but this is a simple question regarding the Veritas Small Plow Plane:

The Combination Wide Blade Kit--Do users leave the kit, a long skate of sorts, attached on the plane when using ordinary narrow blades, say 1/4 or 3/8 inch wide blades? Or conversely, does one remove the combination wide blade kit when using the narrow blades?

[Brian Ward]

You can't use the additional skate in the wide blade kit with most narrow blades due to interference in the blade-fastening assembly. 1/4" doesn't work and 3/8" is just a hair too small. 10mm might be the minimum, but I don't have one of those to check.

When I first got the plane, I thought I might miss the extra skate because there was one that worked down to 1/4" with the Stanley #45, but it has not made a difference in practice. Note that I usually scribe the groove edges with a mortise gauge beforehand to reduce initial tearout.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Makes sense. Thank you.

[Matt Gambardella]

Tom,
To add one more option to your list, I'd also suggest looking at the Luban 43 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2255800205265438.html which is a redo of the original record 43 with the added bonus of being able to be a kerfing plane. I have bought 2 of these recently (one as a gift for a fellow woodworker) and I've been really impressed. I will say 1 arrived with a small nick in the skid which a few minutes on a glass plate with sandpaper fixed. These are tiny planes which is great for keeping at my bench all the time and are surprisingly easy to setup and use. I have a veritas combo plane which is an amazing tool also but its size means it can't be at my bench all the time so for quick work I reach for the Luban 43. Shipping took about 2 weeks to the US as of last month.
Best,
Matt

[Derek Cohen]

Matt, if the Luban is close to the dimensions of the Record #043 (which I own), you will be able to use the smaller Veritas blades in it (from either the Combination Plane or Plow Plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[steven c newman]

Maybe go and read the blog I am writing about building a raised panel, Frame & Panel Chest.....and note how those grooves and things are actually getting DONE.....and used.
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Currently working on a raised panel lid for this "box"....also to be frame & panel style....

YMMV....

[Matt Gambardella]

Matt, if the Luban is close to the dimensions of the Record #043 (which I own), you will be able to use the smaller Veritas blades in it (from either the Combination Plane or Plow Plane).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek I just tested it tonight and confirmed my veritas blades worked fine in the Luban 43