Painters damaged original wood windows - ideas for a fix

[Tim Vanderet]

Hi All, I've spent a lot of time reading and learning in these forums, so thank you to everyone who makes this a valuable resource.


We are having some work done on our home in the SF Bay Area of California and our painters got overzealous with scraping the old paint off of the windows and ruined the inner molding detail of the sash (surprising given the quality of their other work). Our house has beautiful original beveled glass windows so this is pretty devastating to us. The crew is licensed, insured, has taken responsibility and will be covering the cost to fix, etc. but I am putting in the energy to find the right solution rather than relying on their carpenter.

I am in the process of having local shops quote remaking the sashes, etc. but I am also investigating whether there is an acceptable way to "fix" the damage without going through major replacements. I've come up with an idea to replace the molding detail and would like some input on just how bad of an idea it is.

My thought is to use a router with a flush trim bit to remove the damaged section of sash and replace it with a custom profile trim piece from a local mill. There are a few places close by that I've used that will make custom knives and run stock to whatever size and profile you request.

With attention to detail it feels like this could work aesthetically, but am I asking for trouble with regards to window integrity? Would appreciate any insight or suggestions for alternate solutions.

Thanks so much

[Bradley Gray]

I think your idea might work on the frame but the muntiins would have to cut on both sides and are quite small to support a router.

Since insurance may cover pro shop repair I would look into that first - if you screw it up it becomes your problem.

[Greg Quenneville]

I would opt for new sash entirely. Routing out a rebate might work though if you can do it on a bench with good support. The profile looks like a common ogee which you should be able to buy locally or cut yourself if you have a router table.

The Bay area must have lots of custom millwork shops that can reproduce a period window. Even the big companies like Marvin offer a custom service. Going with new would allow you to get double glazing and give you crisp mouldings without six coats of old paint.

[William Hodge]

You can have new sash made around the existing glass. https://www.ravenrestorationsf.com/

Routing out the sticking and replacing it does work, of you have custom cutters made and cope the sticking on a tenoner. Otherwise, it will look like bad patches.

Replacing the windows with insulated glass windows with plastic parts would look like something real bad happened while the owners were away. The beveled glass makes the house fell like it has some character. The light coming in through the beveled glass transforms a room. From the outside, the refracted light from the bevels, and each light being in a different plane, breaks up the facade of the building and makes it feel like it has depth.

Flat glass insulated glass windows with simulated divided lites look like blank dead eyes, not to sound harsh about it, or like I have an opinion.

The painters should know who can fix it right. Anyone that works on old houses in SF knows the custom window places. I just found one from three time zones away.

[Tom M King]

I can't figure out how they would even do that. I've never seen such damage done by painters.

The wood may be a really soft wood, since it was so easily damaged. If so, the profiles can be carefully taken out with really sharp hand tools, and replaced.

I've done smaller areas similarly, but not that many lineal feet.

[Lee Schierer]

The original work appears to be plaster molding, not wood. Maybe talk to a restoration specialist in your area that does plaster details.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I would work on that by hand before trying other measures. Careful carving and sanding could re-create a better looking profile. I would use a razor knife and straight edge to start, followed by a tiny plane and chisels, then profile sanding blocks. I have had to make profile sanding blocks to reshape molded edges. It is tedious but could be done in place without the damage risks involved in removing the sash or beveled glass.

[Bill Dufour]

The original work appears to be plaster molding, not wood. Maybe talk to a restoration specialist in your area that does plaster details.


You could be right. My father did some repair to that part of our front window that rotted. He rebuilt the detail with Dowmans Fixall plaster. The wood is most likely sugar pine or redwood which are both soft. Is the cove molding on the ceiling wood or plaster? Be careful with how much restoration gets done. I have no idea on the limits but do too much and they will have to be replaced with double pane windows. Are you allowed to pull them out and put them back in? Kind of like seismic upgrades if you open it up too much.
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If I was the painter who had done that damage I would be very relieved to hear the Dowman's Fixall Plaster story.

[Scott Clausen]

I can't imagine a painter removing that much detail, ouch! A new molding is not quite the same. If the window sweats it will eventually destroy the molding and possibly the window with that many new facets and cracks. I have just finished my first traditional window sashes using only hand tools and taking a class (Roy Underhill) at the end of the month. So with the right profile it is doable by hand or machine. It is also possible to replace just the bottom rail if that is the only location of damage depending on how the original was made. I don't know if it is historic preservation work or not but either way I would keep the glass and take a close look at how they were made and joinery used. If for no other reason than curiosity.

[Tom M King]

Whatever it is made from, the lower horizontal ones on single pane windows suffer from water condensing on the inside of the windows. I always paint the insides of single pane sash with exterior paint. So far, I've never had to redo any. I would fix them in place.

[Tim Vanderet]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's very much appreciated. I have edited my original post to add new photos to clarify a few issues. In my stress and haste last night I showed a different section of window which seems to have a taller profile. I'd estimate the painters removed about 1/8 inch of material. They were using sharp scrapers and as speculated all of the millwork in the house in softwood (I think its doug fir). The original work is indeed wood, there is no plaster molding in the house. The cove crown molding is a wood piece. Its unfortunately

It seems like there are three buckets of solutions:
1) Try to reshape the profile in place either with razor knives and custom sanding blocks, or build the profile back up with plaster.
2) Replace just the profile section with a new wood piece as described.
3) Rebuild the sashes completely.

Option 1) feels challenging and I would only trust this work with someone that had done this work before. 2) Feels the most feasible but it feels like a real challenge to get a straight clean edge while removing material with the windows in place. 3) I have real concerns with taking the windows down and do wonder whether this is overkill. I am very conflict averse and so working through this with the painter is hard for me.

A number of the custom wood window shops have gotten back to me and the responses have been mixed between option 2) and option 3). Most are adamant that the work needs to be done in the shop, but 2 are still working through whether they could tackle this with the windows in place. The painter is bringing in a few finish carpenters that he knows who are all suggesting variations of Option 2) with the windows in place.

Again, thank you all for your insights. These windows are our favorite feature in a house that we plan to be in forever so this has been very difficult for me to work through.

[Tom M King]

I would trim off the molded edge in place with hand tools, and add it back with wooden molding to match, putting the new piece on with stainless steel 23 ga. pins. It would be a bit tedious, but it's not much different than the kind of stuff I do anyway. I only work within 10 miles of home though. You're over 3,000 away.

It definitely needs to be someone who can easily sharpen hand tools, and is used to working with them. It's not even that difficult with the right tools, and hands. I would move in my portable 92" long sharpening sink. It's one of the first things we move in when we work on 18th and 19th Century museum houses.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's very much appreciated. I have edited my original post to add new photos to clarify a few issues. In my stress and haste last night I showed a different section of window which seems to have a taller profile. I'd estimate the painters removed about 1/8 inch of material. They were using sharp scrapers and as speculated all of the millwork in the house in softwood (I think its doug fir). The original work is indeed wood, there is no plaster molding in the house. The cove crown molding is a wood piece. Its unfortunately

It seems like there are three buckets of solutions:
1) Try to reshape the profile in place either with razor knives and custom sanding blocks, or build the profile back up with plaster.
2) Replace just the profile section with a new wood piece as described.
3) Rebuild the sashes completely.

Option 1) feels challenging and I would only trust this work with someone that had done this work before. 2) Feels the most feasible but it feels like a real challenge to get a straight clean edge while removing material with the windows in place. 3) I have real concerns with taking the windows down and do wonder whether this is overkill. I am very conflict averse and so working through this with the painter is hard for me.

A number of the custom wood window shops have gotten back to me and the responses have been mixed between option 2) and option 3). Most are adamant that the work needs to be done in the shop, but 2 are still working through whether they could tackle this with the windows in place. The painter is bringing in a few finish carpenters that he knows who are all suggesting variations of Option 2) with the windows in place.

Again, thank you all for your insights. These windows are our favorite feature in a house that we plan to be in forever so this has been very difficult for me to work through.

Forget #1. There's not enough material left in places to reshape and plaster won't hold up to condensation. If the sashes can be removed routing out and replacing the profile sections in the shop will be far more efficient than in place. If the sash material is sound that is probably the way to go, otherwise new sash make more sense.

[John TenEyck]

My opinion is the repairs can only be done properly if the sashes are taken out. Trying to do it in place risks breaking the glass and that's a deal breaker for me. Screw up your courage and tell the painters that they are on the hook for the repairs by a qualified shop. A qualified shop for this kind of work is a shop that regularly deals with repair and restoration of historic windows. No offense to all the carpenters out there but this is not in your bailiwick. Eliminate the shops that say they can do it in place. Pick whomever you most trust from the rest.

And never hire this painter again.

John

[Mel Fulks]

The corners are rounded . Not just too heavily loaded with paint ,but really rounded . Looks like they could have even been made with a
router and not real joints. In California sun-shine they are back-lighted . At night the curtains are closed….look only through the center of the
glass. Can’t help wondering if you just didn’t pay much attention to close-up corners ‘til job was done. I don’t think insurance company or
courts are gonna make it look any better. Might just be a case of “ we always do it like that, and no one has ever complained “.

[Tom M King]

I think a lot of that irregular shape is just layers of built up paint. You have to be too careful with a heat gun next to glass, or the glass can break. You certainly don't want to break any of that glass, but I have heated a scraper, and it helps for a short while. The trouble with scraping paint on soft wood is that a thick layer of old paint is harder than the wood underneath. It can be done, but it's a tedious process.

[Jeff Bartley]

Thanks everyone for your input, it's very much appreciated. I have edited my original post to add new photos to clarify a few issues. In my stress and haste last night I showed a different section of window which seems to have a taller profile. I'd estimate the painters removed about 1/8 inch of material. They were using sharp scrapers and as speculated all of the millwork in the house in softwood (I think its doug fir). The original work is indeed wood, there is no plaster molding in the house. The cove crown molding is a wood piece. Its unfortunately

It seems like there are three buckets of solutions:
1) Try to reshape the profile in place either with razor knives and custom sanding blocks, or build the profile back up with plaster.
2) Replace just the profile section with a new wood piece as described.
3) Rebuild the sashes completely.

Option 1) feels challenging and I would only trust this work with someone that had done this work before. 2) Feels the most feasible but it feels like a real challenge to get a straight clean edge while removing material with the windows in place. 3) I have real concerns with taking the windows down and do wonder whether this is overkill. I am very conflict averse and so working through this with the painter is hard for me.

A number of the custom wood window shops have gotten back to me and the responses have been mixed between option 2) and option 3). Most are adamant that the work needs to be done in the shop, but 2 are still working through whether they could tackle this with the windows in place. The painter is bringing in a few finish carpenters that he knows who are all suggesting variations of Option 2) with the windows in place.

Again, thank you all for your insights. These windows are our favorite feature in a house that we plan to be in forever so this has been very difficult for me to work through.

In most of the historic work that I do the goal is always to retain as much of the historic material as possible. Is every sash as bad as the pictures? I’m looking at the pics on my phone so the detail is not as good as a big screen.

I don’t know why anyone would paint old sash in place, we always remove to paint. Part of the beauty of old windows is their serviceability. It’s hard to recommend a fix without seeing them in person but I would definitely remove them.

If the scraping was that aggressive I can’t believe they didn’t break any glass!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It appears to me that the damage has accumulated over the years and the most recent folks to work on the problem have opened a can of worms. I used to be a wood windows only guy. No longer. Plastic for me.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

"A good painter is really expensive. A cheap one even more so."

I rebuilt almost an entire front 24 pane window in my last house with bondo. Termites will never come back.
A lot easier than with FixAll. That stuff is WAY too hard.

[Dick Strauss]

How about two part epoxy and a plastic putty knife ground to match the original profile?

I can't see the pics because I'm no longer a member.

[johnny means]

How about two part epoxy and a plastic putty knife ground to match the original profile?

I can't see the pics because I'm no longer a member.

That was my first thought. I've recreated many a historic detail with Bondo and an old credit card. Learned it from a plaster molding guy.

[Tom M King]

You can use an appropriately sized piece of wood applied in place with releasable double side tape as a guide. Works for plaster too, and even curved pieces.

[Tim Vanderet]

Many thanks to everyone for the ideas and tips, this thread has been very helpful. I've been in contact with three different local shops that specialize in replicating/restoring historic windows and all echoed similar thoughts to what has been shared in this thread. All of them felt that working on the windows in place was simply too risky, even with hand tools, and they would only take on the project in their shop. Given the size of the windows only one shop is able to take on the job and the price as high as you'd expect for work this risky in a high cost area.

All of them agreed that trying to build up/sculpt the profile is a reasonable idea and feasible for someone with the right skillset. The concerns around moisture absorption and plaster are noted, and all the shops recommended bondo.

I spoke with the painter last week and told him that the work needs to be done by someone with experience doing this work and we need to follow the guidance of one of the shops. The current plan is find someone local to try replicating the profile, we're currently reaching out to someone who specializes in plaster moldings as well as a few people in the Painters network. If this is unsuccessful we are in alignment that the local wood window guy will take on the restoration work.

I appreciate the tips on replicating the profile. My current plan is to sketch out the profile in CAD and then laser cut a thin piece of plastic sized to run flush along the window/sash/sill which will allow the window itself to be the guide.


I feel good about the path forward and will post an update once everything is completed (though this could be months with how busy everyone is)

[Tom M King]

I use plumbers epoxy putty (just because it's easy to get in the plumbing section of box stores), and thin sandwich wrap as a release. I get the thin sandwich wrap from Subway because it's thinner than what's in the kitchen. Using nitrile gloves, kneed some of the two parts that are about the consistency of modeling clay together, and squeeze it in place over the molding profile with the sandwich wrap between the putty and glass & muntin. Once hard, I slice it into pieces with smooth ends on the miter saw.

If I'm having custom bits made, I send one of these. They are plenty strong enough to use as a screed for Bondo.

Don't mix up much at the time. The more you mix at one time, the hotter it will get, and can get too hot to handle.

I fold the sandwich wrap back over the outside of the lump to press it into place so it doesn't goo up the gloves. The plastic wrap will pull off after it's set up.

On the one in this picture, I didn't do a good job of squeezing it into the corners at the glass, but I was just using this as a guide to change the profile on a molding plane, and this was what I needed.

[Tom M King]

I wouldn't be scared of doing them in place, but I wouldn't send an employee to do it. My fingers are in an odd place in this picture because the girl taking the picture asked me to stop in the middle of a stroke. She couldn't catch it in action. This was in the process of changing the molding plane profile.

[Mel Fulks]

Well, I just now noticed that in the “original detail” pic the vertical bar and and bottom rail don’t even have the same profile. So I think it was never right .

[Tom Bender]

The painter and his insurer are going to balk at the price of a quality restoration. Be prepared for that. May involve a lawyer.

Be sure to visit the shop where the work will be done. See if they do similar work. Ask exactly what they plan to do.

Shops may be thinking that someone else will bring the windows to them and reinstall. Who would that be and will they install something temporary to close the house? Plastic and duct tape would not be ok. Just how long will the windows be gone?