Calculating Kitchen Lumber

[John Kananis]

I've done mostly one-offs for a long time but I'm getting some entire kitchens from folks I've done other things for in the past.

Wondering if there's a calculator somewhere for the ply and lumber required or do i just figure average needed materials per cabinet, times quantity of cabinetry plus 20%? I only work with rough lumber (outside of the ply which is easy to calculate). Just not sure how that translates into how many board feet of whatever. I'm used to going to the sawmill, picking out lumber by eye (and off course a little extra haha) and calling it a day.

[Jeff Roltgen]

For projects with the complexity of a kitchen, a cutlist is essential. I've been using CutlistPlus for over a decade. Very reasonable cost, and will help you very handily calculate all of the above, condense into a bill of materials, and even generate labels for the parts. Especially handy on the plys. Your first kitchen invoice should very handily cover the token price of this simple, yet highly effective piece of software. Sorry, "app".

Most basic way to use it is to simply manually enter each part, quantity, dimensions.

Better yet, learn CAD. I've been using Sketchup, which you may input plugins that allow you to export to CutlistPlus automatically, and even export dxf's of your plys for cnc cutting, if you're so equipped. However, it is an entirely new skill to learn to build cabinets in any piece of software, so you should be asking yourself how many more you intend to allow yourself to be talked into. If you're in business, it is absolutely imperative to be able to draft a kitchen with at least a basic program, better yet, get working on 3D drafting, like Sketchup. It will pay back in spades, and I honestly don't understand how anyone could be in business without, in this day and age, as the clientele are more and more reliant on visual representation, or they move on to someone who is presenting pretty pictures before they commit to investing in a custom built kitchen.

Unless you are a factory, punching out hundreds of the same layout, there really is no general generic kitchen cutlist to cheat off of.

[Paul F Franklin]

For me, the biggest driver of how much rough lumber to buy to end up with X amount of finished stock is how picky one is (or one's customer is) about grain type and match and color match, and clear or with knots. Your typical mass produced cabinets by someone like Kraftmaid will have straight grain on some parts, cathedral grain on others, and wild grain on still others. If you specify a "natural" finish, meaning no stain or toner, you will also get wide variation in colors as they don't select or sort the lumber for a match. On something like cherry, you'll get sapwood mixed in with heartwood and you're likely to see tight knots as well.

If you are not going to be fussy about matching grain/color etc, and you're starting with high quality stock, you may get by with 10-20% overage. If you only want straight grain on rails and stiles and face frames, and want good color match and no sapwood (where applicable) you may need 50% over or more.

So I'd start by understanding (or setting) the customer's expectation of those factors.

[Warren Lake]

how did old guys work 50 or 60 years in the trade and never own a computer?

[Jeff Roltgen]

how did old guys work 50 or 60 years in the trade and never own a computer?

They probably had more hair left on their heads by the time they hit my age.:D

Computers are not a cheat.
It's just that society, in general, today:
1> has less ability to visualize, what with constant bombardment from blue screens
2> less understanding of how things go together or the sheer complexity of what many are asking you to do
3> super-fast delivery expectations.
4> LED lighting systems must be tastefully planned and routed inconspicuously, so illumination appears almost magically
5> Integrated trash, spice, cookware, towel and pantry roll-outs are just the tip of the iceberg for additional accessories
6> Integrated appliances. Check out the Wolf appliance design guide on installing a wall oven or microwave drawer, and how exacting the placement of outlets and spacers for that "like a glove" look

You certainly can do all of this on paper, but I hope this illustrates that the expectations and complexity of the contemporary consumer are far more advanced than 50-60 years ago, and pencil/paper are no match for these demands at the speed of now.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My Dad has a neat system for this. He makes (made) a "story board" for each job. A long strip of masonite divided into 3/4 inch lines with a combination square. Every cabinet occupied a line with all of the verticals represented actual size and all of the horizontals referenced with a code of notes. He can very quickly count up all of the parts, find their sizes, create a cut list for the boxes and face frames, and get the door and drawer sizes. In later years he ordered doors rather than building them. He would order the doors off of the story board, then build the cabinets. Mis-calculations were few and far between. I need to have him walk me through it again. It would a good thing to document.

[Richard Coers]

Very easy to calculate the area of the faces of cabinets. Just calculate the whole wall at one time, and not individual cabinets. Buying "shorts" is the easy way to save money doing cabinets, but otherwise buy in length increments that will do upper cabinets and then lower cabinets. Cut all you long pieces first to make sure you have the length to work with.

[John Kananis]

All great info. Cutlistplus looks pretty attractive, thanks for that. I've been meaning to play with sketchup for a while now but another skill to learn... it's about that time though. Story stocks are great but not sure how to incorporate an entire kitchen into one (I'm sure it's done, just wouldn't know how).

I'm pretty picky about stock - building one-offs allows me that latitude but now it's also part of the method of work so I'll plan closer to 50% overage than 20%... I'm sure I'll figure out the average after say the second one.

As mentioned above, integrated appliances are the only things that give me trepidation.

[Rod Sheridan]

how did old guys work 50 or 60 years in the trade and never own a computer?

Slowly…..Rod

[Warren Lake]

When the old guy was running the big toronto shop his peak was 36 jobs at once. One of those was all the woodwork for new city Hall in toronto. They charted two boats to go to Burma to get the teak which tells you the size of the job.

Performance bonds that were as thick as a book and you would lose everything but your underwear if you werent done on time. No computers.

[andrew whicker]

When the old guy was running the big toronto shop his peak was 36 jobs at once. One of those was all the woodwork for new city Hall in toronto. They charted two boats to go to Burma to get the teak which tells you the size of the job.

Performance bonds that were as thick as a book and you would lose everything but your underwear if you werent done on time. No computers.

You mean big projects were done before computers??




I used a free software recently, DeepNest, to nest some ply. However, it was a pretty lame experience. I order my ply cut thru a CNC shop and they do the nesting for me. I just used DeepNest to give me an estimate.

[Warren Lake]

Apparently yes.

What amazes me is the SR71 made way back with a slide rule. There are aliens amongst us.

[Todd Bender]

As mentioned above, integrated appliances are the only things that give me trepidation.

I have found the installation instructions provided by Subzero-Wolf to be very accurate, but can be a bit challenging to wrap your head around at first. - Meaning, they offer so much info for so many different models in each pdf it can be a little challenging to weed through so much info. Just pay close attention to your installation type (inset or overlay), then refer to the design guide for custom panel sizes, and you will do fine. I've worked with a few other brands, but Subzero-Wolf make up the vast majority of built-in appliances I deal with.

[johnny means]

how did old guys work 50 or 60 years in the trade and never own a computer?

They were just less efficient.

[Jeff Roltgen]

I have found the installation instructions provided by Subzero-Wolf to be very accurate, but can be a bit challenging to wrap your head around at first. - Meaning, they offer so much info for so many different models in each pdf it can be a little challenging to weed through so much info.

Exactly.

All the more reason to get it firmed up in an easily organized and labeled in at least a cut list program.

Don't want to be misconstrued as a "computer only" advocate.
I certainly have a healthy respect for my forefathers that got it done with pencil and paper. If it's a one-off for yourself, go right ahead. Probably easier than learning the programming for one.
It's just a different world now, and if you're thinking of really getting into it for a living, now's the time to dive in and master it. Fortunately, there are routs for the smaller shops that do not require a huge investment either.

[John Kananis]

I'm assuming the consensus for a small shop would be to use sketchup? Or is there something better/easier/etc?

[Jeff Roltgen]

John,
I've been in Sketchup for 15 years now. My nephew says Fusion 360 has advantages over it, but, at this point, I'm so bonded to Sketchup, I'll likely stick to it.
From a fresh perspective like yours, I'd take a very close look at Fusion360, based on some advantages he felt would make drafting easier than in Sketchup.

From design to CAM to cut list, with a few plugins between, it's basically:
Sketchup, Aspire and Cutlist Plus.
Export dxf's to Aspire (or V-carve pro) for CAM processing to produce part files on the CNC (plys and hardwood pieces with arcs /3D carving work)
Export Cutlist report, using Cutlist bridge, (c/o Joe Zeh swamp road woodworks) for use in Cutlist Plus.

If you're diligent regarding labeling components as you draft in Sketchup, you simply select your parts on the screen and run a report that will automatically generate a Cut List file. Open it in Cutlist Plus, and it will then calculate how much rough lumber and quantity/types of sheet goods needed to buy to produce a given project. You fill in costs, markups, and have a very quick answer. And yes, an exacting user like yourself can specify what percentage of waste you'd like it to allow for your rough lumber!.
I love printing labels for organizing the sheet goods. Recently went to a nice Trodat 5558 self-inking stamp for labeling rough lumber. Keeps you focused on quality, not overwhelmed with stacks of parts.

If you'd like a more automated, refined way of doing this, Joe Zeh's full plugin version, called Cab Writer, utilizes all 3 of the above, which AFAIK is still a single, modest purchase price - like still under a grand?.
Mozaik essentially does the same thing, just more of a subscription version, and they incorporate V-Ray or similar for rendering almost photo-realistic images of a given project, be it a piece of furniture or a complete kitchen full of cabinets.

Large - scale production software is profoundly powerful, with a profoundly shocking annual cost, last time I checked.

jeff

[John Kananis]

Great info, Jeff. Appreciated.

[andrew whicker]

I use Fusion 360 for general 3D modeling / drawing (instead of Sketchup).

As said above, they are both cheap. Both are probably equally frustrating and/or developed, etc. Fusion is an Autodesk (Autocad) product which is the reason I went with it. However, after using it for a few years now, I can't say it's impressed me as much as I thought it would. The development team is small and has overlooked some very basic capabilities (creating decent dimensioned and annotated 2D drawings) while spending tons of resources in other areas (feeding your model directly into 3D printers and CNC equipment). It seems to be geared towards the company / person with in-house CNC equipment who does both the designing and machining (less common, in my opinion) and not so much geared towards the company / person that uses vendors for some parts or doesn't use in-house CNC equipment (more common). For me, the latter, it can be a frustrating product.


I don't remember Sketchup being super impressive either. I'm sure both will make you pull your hair out at different times. As with most things in life, the good products cost good money (Solidworks, Catia, etc).


There is a nesting add on for Fusion that is a part of a bigger add on for sheet metal fabrication. It's a very expensive add on though, not very small shop oriented.

[John Kananis]

More good info. My floor space will not accommodate a cnc setup any time soon so I'm leaning towards sketchup at this point (seems a little more novice-friendly?).

[andrew whicker]

They both have a ton of YouTube professionals, forums, etc. I wouldn't worry about choosing the right one based on use-ability. Whichever you choose, you'll learn it and get used to it.

I haven't used Sketchup in many a year, but from memory it "thinks" differently than Fusion. I think Fusion is more typical of higher end professional modeling software.. you'll have to research. So if you were to use a cheap product (Fusion or Sketchup) for X years and then transfer to a more expensive product, you should pick whichever one is most like the professional products so you aren't re-learning everything all over again.

If you don't see that in your future, then I guess just research to see which one has the most support, resources, and development teams behind it. I'm guessing it's a wash, but at this point I'm not going to change so I'm not going to research the topic... although I do wonder. Also, if you do use vendors / like having 2D drawings in your shop, see what people say about Sketchup vs Fusion. I'm not kidding, Fusion really sucks in this department. You can get by, but it's very meh for a company who owns Autocad. You'd think the development team never worked in real world manufacturing before.

[Paul F Franklin]

If you are thinking about sketchup (which I have used since it came out), consider signing up for the upcoming fine woodworking sketchup training class (if it's still open). It's focused on woodworking applications of sketchup and the instructor is really sharp. It's not free, but if you want a jumpstart, it is likely to provide it. Even though I've used it for many years, I'm taking the class because of the instructors expertise.

[John Kananis]

I'll look for it and check it out. I stopped subscribing to fww a few years back. I still love looking through the issues from past decades but the newer stuff seems mostly full of adds and stuff that's been repeated to death.

[Dan Rude]

I haven't spent too much time learning Sketch-up yet. I hope to get back to it this summer, but work has not been slow yet. I purchased Bob Lang's course on it, he goes through everything with examples in an interactive interface. I also have a couple of his books and one on Kitchen Design. Another Author Paul Levine on "Cabinets and Built in's". https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/cabinets-and-built-ins-a-practical-guide-to-building-professional-quality-cabinetry_paul--levine/274330/#TBContent. Good luck! Dan

[John Kananis]

Oh, good link. Thank you.