Advice to stain and finish rift white oak

[Hung Le]

Hi,

I am new to the forum. I am working with our cabinet maker to figure out the stain and finish for our rift white oak cabinets. I would like to get some help with suggestions on how to stain/finish to accomplish the look we are going for. Here is a picture of a couple of our panels:

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And here's the natural inspiration look we would like to achieve:

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I was able to find out who made these cabinets and reached out. They first said that they just did a clear coat. When I followed up with question around the ambering effect of most clear coats, they clarified and said they actually did a "white washed clear coat". I am grateful that they even responded and share this much information but my cabinet maker still has no clue what they meant. I thought that white washed wood tend to be very white but this looks very natural. Does anyone have an understanding of what they might be referring to by a "white washed clear coat" finish that can help explain?

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It looks like diluted pickling white followed by clear "varnish" to me. I have achieved a similar look with 1 part Old Masters pickling white mixed with 1 part Minwax Natural wood stain. Using Oil based products adds a significant amber or golden hue that increases over time. It can be done with water based products for a brighter less golden look. I have not tried Minwax Color Wash. I would start by experimenting that, followed by "varnish" (Lacquer or a water borne clear) I generally use a clear with a satin sheen for kitchens.

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[Prashun Patel]

That's going to be beautiful!

The ambering effect of a topcoat comes from oil-based topcoats, which traditionally have been used. Water-based topcoats do not have an amber effect. There are good water-based topcoats now that are durable for kitchen cabinets. Please ask your cabinet maker what top coat product, specifically, he is going to use.

That picture does not (to me) look like it has been "pickled" or "white washed" or "limed". It looks like it has just been top coated with a water-based, clear, matte sheen product;

Doesn't your maker have cabinet samples of finishes that he can show you? If not, you should certainly have him prepare test pieces so you can confirm.

[Tom M King]

It looks to me like you're not wanting to change from the natural shade of it much. The only thing I know of that looks like nothing has been put on Oak is Bona Naturale floor finish. It looks like nothing is on it, other than the smooth, matt finish, but is durable enough to use on floors in hotel lobbies. It would take some experimenting, and it's not cheap. It might be classified as low VOC-not sure, but it's an acid cure urethane, and I don't use it without ventilation and breathing protection.

[Jamie Buxton]

Tom’s mention of Bona Naturale brings up the whole world of two-component cabinet finishes. Two common kinds are conversion varnish and 2-K urethane. They are more durable than the single-component finishes. However, they are more dangerous to apply than single-component finishes, and so are mostly used by professional cabinet shops. I don’t use them, but I think there are ones which are color free. I’d ask the cabinetmaker what finishes he is equipped to apply.

[Frank Pratt]

I'm making a free standing cabinet for our kitchen from rift sawn white oak veneer plywood and am going to be applying a very similar finish. The stain (I rarely use stains) is a Varathane oil based that imparts a slight whitewash with just a hint of blue in the gray. I'll be wiping it back a lot to minimize obscuring the grain and altering the natural color too much. The top coat will be General Finishes clear water borne urethane. The test samples look beautiful.

I love quarter sawn white oak, but it gets a little busy to use on a big piece for my taste. The rift sawn is so beautifully simple in its grain and coloring. It works so well on contemporary stuff.

[Hung Le]

That's going to be beautiful!

The ambering effect of a topcoat comes from oil-based topcoats, which traditionally have been used. Water-based topcoats do not have an amber effect. There are good water-based topcoats now that are durable for kitchen cabinets. Please ask your cabinet maker what top coat product, specifically, he is going to use.

That picture does not (to me) look like it has been "pickled" or "white washed" or "limed". It looks like it has just been top coated with a water-based, clear, matte sheen product;

Doesn't your maker have cabinet samples of finishes that he can show you? If not, you should certainly have him prepare test pieces so you can confirm.

He will be using Sherwin Williams Water White Conversion Varnish for the top coat. He's been working on trying out different stains because he believes just putting the CV directly on the raw wood veneer will amber it. I've done some research and since this is "water white", it should have minimal color changes from unfinished wood from what I understand. I have asked him to make me a sample with just the CV.

Is there an equally durable water based finish that you would recommend? I am located in San Diego, CA. I know General Finishes also have a water based CV but it is pretty pricy and my cabinet maker has no experience with it. This is for our kitchen cabinets so we want to have something that is durable and will last a very long time with minimal maintenance.

[Hung Le]

My cabinet maker will be using Sherwin Williams Water White Conversion Varnish as the top coat. I am waiting for a sample with just the CV on raw wood veneer. Would there be any "wet" or ambering effect that would require some sort of light white washed stain process before hand?

The inspiration photo looks like it is not completely "raw" or unfinished. I don't know if they digitally enhanced the color in the photo to make it pops more. It has the same tone as our raw veneer but just a little more intense to pop without the strong ambering effect.

[Frank Pratt]

It may be the way the photo shows, but I'm convinced that there is more than just a water white clear finish on it. Even a colorless finish warms the wood up a bit, even though it's not adding any color of its own. It's just because I have been trying finish and stains on white oak and it's fresh in my mind that makes me think that.

[Hung Le]

@Frank, glad to hear you are in the same boat! We love the rift white oak for the same reason. Which Varathane stain are you using specifically? Do you find it to alter the color much? Our cabinet maker has been experimenting with different stain but none of them come out looking natural to our eyes. I understanding that simply wetting the wood with water will create a similar effect and that is the true natural color of the white oak. We simply just want it to be less intense if that makes any sense.

[Hung Le]

I did not know that oil stain will amber over time by itself. We want to avoid this since we are already spending so much time trying to get the right color to begin with. I read that water based stain could cause tannin pull though. How do we avoid this? The top coat will be a water white CV. Thanks.

[John TenEyck]

I agree with Prashun. Your inspiration photo looks like those cabinets were done with a matte or flat waterborne finish. I have used General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly in Flat sheen and it looks like no finish on the wood. I do not believe those cabinets were stained or otherwise treated - that's what white oak looks like with flat/matte waterborne clearcoat, specifically acrylic.

The problem is your cabinet maker wants to use SW's solvent based CV. He's not going to want to change if that's the finish he is familiar with. But see if he has used SW's KemAqua Plus or Sayerlack waterbornes. They should give the same unfinished look if he uses flat/matte sheen. Both are KCMA rated.

Trying to get around the ambering effect of solvent based products is the wrong approach. If he use an acrylic waterborne there is no ambering.
John

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Getting some Titanium Dioxide into the wood is key to having natural wood that is bright. It does not take much. It makes a natural finish "pop".

[Hung Le]

I agree with Prashun. Your inspiration photo looks like those cabinets were done with a matte or flat waterborne finish. I have used General Finishes Enduro Clear Poly in Flat sheen and it looks like no finish on the wood. I do not believe those cabinets were stained or otherwise treated - that's what white oak looks like with flat/matte waterborne clearcoat, specifically acrylic.

The problem is your cabinet maker wants to use SW's solvent based CV. He's not going to want to change if that's the finish he is familiar with. But see if he has used SW's KemAqua Plus or Sayerlack waterbornes. They should give the same unfinished look if he uses flat/matte sheen. Both are KCMA rated.

Trying to get around the ambering effect of solvent based products is the wrong approach. If he use an acrylic waterborne there is no ambering.
John

What is your experience on the chemical resistance and overall durability of the GF Enduro Clear Poly? I did have a conversation with one of their reps the other day and he claimed that they tested it against Sherwin Williams Water White CV and their Clear Poly is more durable. Here's a link to the Sherwin Williams CV that my cabinet maker is planning on using:
https://industrial.sherwin-williams.com/na/us/en/industrial-wood/catalog/product/products-by-industry.11543394/sher-wood-water-white-conversion-varnish.9159500.html

I can talk to him to see if he can use something from GF or a different finish that is water based from SW. I am just a little leery of asking him to try a different finish process then what he had done in the past. Is there one that you would recommend from SW that is as durable as the CV for the kitchen environment?

Thanks.

[Frank Pratt]

@Frank, glad to hear you are in the same boat! We love the rift white oak for the same reason. Which Varathane stain are you using specifically? Do you find it to alter the color much? Our cabinet maker has been experimenting with different stain but none of them come out looking natural to our eyes. I understanding that simply wetting the wood with water will create a similar effect and that is the true natural color of the white oak. We simply just want it to be less intense if that makes any sense.

Sorry, the stain's at home and I'm not. It is a fairly heavily pigmented stain that, depending on how much it's rubbed back, can give it a very white washed or pickled look to just slightly pickled.

I will not argue with @John TenEyck about no stain. He really knows finishes. I was after something just a little less warm than the white oak with a clear finish.

[Jim Becker]

If you don't want the ambering effect...the finisher will potentially have to use a different product from the solvent based finish they are currently using. That's really the bottom line. John mentioned some very good options that would allow the finisher to at least still deal with the same vendor.

[John TenEyck]

What is your experience on the chemical resistance and overall durability of the GF Enduro Clear Poly? I did have a conversation with one of their reps the other day and he claimed that they tested it against Sherwin Williams Water White CV and their Clear Poly is more durable. Here's a link to the Sherwin Williams CV that my cabinet maker is planning on using:
https://industrial.sherwin-williams.com/na/us/en/industrial-wood/catalog/product/products-by-industry.11543394/sher-wood-water-white-conversion-varnish.9159500.html

I can talk to him to see if he can use something from GF or a different finish that is water based from SW. I am just a little leery of asking him to try a different finish process then what he had done in the past. Is there one that you would recommend from SW that is as durable as the CV for the kitchen environment?

Thanks.


I have no experience with SW's Water White CV, or any solvent based finish, sorry. GF's Enduro Clear Poly is resistant to short term exposure to most chemicals and cleaners. Like many waterbornes, strong ammonia containing products (Windex, 409) will damage it if left on it. I used it on my own kitchen cabinets. It's held up well for the two or three years since I did it, but it can and has been damaged in a couple of spots from grease streaks, not enough for anyone but me to notice, but I see it. My wife is an enthusiastic cook! No one component product is likely to be as durable as a catalyzed one. But really, what do you plan to do, wash it down daily. As long as the finish is KCMA rated I'd be happy. Whatever is used only has to last 20 or 25 years anyway, max, and then it's going to get replaced.

I'm not suggesting your cabinet shop use Enduro Clear Poly, only that they are unlikely to get that no-finish look with a solvent based product, and if they do it won't be a simple process. That's why I suggested the cabinet shop look at SW's waterborne products, Kem Aqua Plus and the Sayerlack waterbornes. At least they can lean on their supplier to give them whatever support they need.

Your other option is to find a cabinet shop that already uses waterbornes and have them build your cabinets.

John

[Jeff Roltgen]

Did this about 5 years ago an a kitchen. Same look, except we used reconstituted QS white oak veneer.
Before converting to water based products a couple years ago, Sherwin Williams T77F63 "water white" was a favorite of mine for close to a decade, but it will deepen the background, bringing up a more sandy tone.
On the aforementioned, I therefore used GF High performance. Yes, it has just a pinch of amber added, but no appreciable difference in the final look. Key here is how the original first coat of a water-based vs solvent based topcoat penetrates and affects tone of the wood. We never considered any whitening at all, as the GF HP returned to almost the same tone of the raw veneer once dried. Bingo. Just what you see in the example photo. Sorry, haven't the time to dig out my images of that kitchen.

I would suggest:
1> If they are insisting on using the T77 series Sherwin product, a pickling/liming stain will likely be needed, and as already stated, this means samples.
2> If they are willing to play ball, ask them to use a water based topcoat, and avoid all the hand-wringing over the stain use, selection, application, color tone, etc. Yes, you'll want a sample of it as well.

Good luck.

[Hung Le]

I have no experience with SW's Water White CV, or any solvent based finish, sorry. GF's Enduro Clear Poly is resistant to short term exposure to most chemicals and cleaners. Like many waterbornes, strong ammonia containing products (Windex, 409) will damage it if left on it. I used it on my own kitchen cabinets. It's held up well for the two or three years since I did it, but it can and has been damaged in a couple of spots from grease streaks, not enough for anyone but me to notice, but I see it. My wife is an enthusiastic cook! No one component product is likely to be as durable as a catalyzed one. But really, what do you plan to do, wash it down daily. As long as the finish is KCMA rated I'd be happy. Whatever is used only has to last 20 or 25 years anyway, max, and then it's going to get replaced.

I'm not suggesting your cabinet shop use Enduro Clear Poly, only that they are unlikely to get that no-finish look with a solvent based product, and if they do it won't be a simple process. That's why I suggested the cabinet shop look at SW's waterborne products, Kem Aqua Plus and the Sayerlack waterbornes. At least they can lean on their supplier to give them whatever support they need.

Your other option is to find a cabinet shop that already uses waterbornes and have them build your cabinets.

John

Unfortunately SW said they don't carry any water based product in their facility where I am located. I looked into other water based finishes but there is not much option where I am at (San Diego, CA) which is surprising. GF is basically the only option around here. Changing cabinet shop at this stage is also not an option for us as it will add significant delay and logistic issues.

I am seriously considering Clear Poly. I really wanted our cabinets to last 20-25 years before even considering replacing. The chemical resistance of Clear Poly seems like it is almost there but I am concerned about its ability to deal with ammonia which is quite common when I found one of your old post that you reported your chemical testing. https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7070964

[Hung Le]

I just got a sample from my cabinet maker that only has the SW White Water CV on it with no stain conditioner or stain. Like my cabinet maker said, it added yellow/amber compared to the unfinished veneer. I am pretty disappointed considering that SW claims this is "water white" clear. I expected a little darkening but not this orange look. The finished piece of the right is actually slightly more orange and darker in person.

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I did try GF High performance on a piece of veneer and like you said it has a slightly darken with a tiny pinch of amber but otherwise looks very close to the tone of the original unfinished wood. My only concern if I end up with HP (or the slightly stronger Clear Poly) is the ability of the finish to withstand common cleaning products with ammonia. My wife isn't the most careful of person so I can see her accidentally spraying and some would land on the cabinets.

I am playing with some white stain and out of the box, Minwax Simply White is pretty decent. Just a little whiter than I would like. I am going to try to dilute it down to see if it ends up being good enough for us.

[John TenEyck]

Unfortunately SW said they don't carry any water based product in their facility where I am located. I looked into other water based finishes but there is not much option where I am at (San Diego, CA) which is surprising. GF is basically the only option around here. Changing cabinet shop at this stage is also not an option for us as it will add significant delay and logistic issues.

I am seriously considering Clear Poly. I really wanted our cabinets to last 20-25 years before even considering replacing. The chemical resistance of Clear Poly seems like it is almost there but I am concerned about its ability to deal with ammonia which is quite common when I found one of your old post that you reported your chemical testing. https://forums.woodnet.net/showthread.php?tid=7070964

Enduro Clear Poly is pretty durable. Brief exposure to Windex or 409 won't hurt it. The testing I did was 1 hour exposure if I remember correctly. It was done to see how finishes responded to extreme exposure. My wife is a great cook but an extremely messy one. Stuff gets slopped everywhere, down the front of the cabinets and especially around the door and drawer pulls. I clean them off when I see it, but sometimes it's several days before I do. After 40 years I think I have convinced her to never use Windex or 409 on cabinets (again) but who knows. She used Comet on some others a few years ago. The dirt came off but so did the finish! With that in mind, after 2 or 3 years the kitchen cabinets still look new and I fully expect they will continue to look good for many years to come.

That said, there are plenty of waterborne products with higher durability than Clear Poly. GF's CV is one of them. I have never used it so I can't comment on the color, whether it's water clear or has an amber tint. Lenmar MegaVar is another possibility. And ChemCraft makes a waterborne 2K poly if you really want to go top shelf.

But SW's saying they don't carry their own waterborne products is not the same as saying they can't get them. Ask them specifically if they can order in Kem Aqua Plus or Sayerlack HydroPlus. If they blow you off, call a couple of other SW stores.

John

[Jim Becker]

But SW's saying they don't carry their own waterborne products is not the same as saying they can't get them. Ask them specifically if they can order in Kem Aqua Plus or Sayerlack HydroPlus. If they blow you off, call a couple of other SW stores.


^^ This for sure. SW has a lot of stores in many areas and some are "better stocked" than others, but all of them can order what they don't have.