Some Help Finding a Bottom Bowl Gouge

[John Kananis]

I'm looking for a U-shaped gouge for working the inside of a bowl, 3/4 or 5/8. No one seems to have the Thompson. All I'm finding is the Ashley Harwood line and that's 250 bucks for steel and handle...a bit much but if I HAVE to. Not saying I'm not willing to pay for quality tools, just seems a bit much at +$100 to the oneway mastercut.

[Don Orr]

Get an inexpensive gouge like Hamlet, Crown, Sorby, Packard, Apprentice, even Benjamin's Best and grind it to suit your needs. That's what probably most of us have done. Sure, Thompsons are the best, but you can do good work with other good tools.

[Kevin Jenness]

https://d-waytools.com/gouges/bowl-gouges/

https://carterandsontoolworks.com/collections/bowl-gouges/products/the-bottom-feeder

Or you can buy a standard grind U-shaped gouge from Thompson and regrind it.

https://thompsonlathetools.com/product/58-u-bowl-gouge/

[John Kananis]

Thanks for the help guys. However, the ones listed are all parabolic with the exception of the Thompson, which is out of stock. Looking for a U-Shaped gouge.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thompson does have U-shaped gouges in stock, but you would have to do some reshaping. I bet you would be grinding the Harwood gouge to a steeper angle too as it is supplied with a 50* bevel. My guess is a parabolic shape would work as well. The Ellsworth grind is 55*-60* at the nose and will reach the bottom of most bowls. Here's another "bottom feeder" if you must have a pre-ground U-shaped tool.

https://carterandsontoolworks.com/products/5-8-u-shaped-bowl-gouge

[John Kananis]

Oh the Carter is perfect actually. I found it elsewhere but no handle. Didn't think to go to the manufacturer's site. M42 to boot. Thank you.

[Brian Deakin]

Please see link below

https://www.woodworkersemporium.com/mike-mahoney-signature-5-8-gouge-the-bottom-feeder/

[Pat Scott]

D-Way has a 3/4" U shape gouge on sale (with or without handle). https://d-waytools.com/3-4-bowl-gouge-u-shaped-13-x-760-with-5-8-tang/

[Reed Gray]

I have several spindle detain gouges that I have ground for BOB tools, along with a number of others. I prefer a 70 degree bevel, and a very slight sweep to the nose, rather than square across, like this ). Ashley Harwood has one that she just came out with that is some what similar to the spindle detail gouges. I like Doug's fluteless gouges as well. They are for taking off very small shavings. I did one video just on them.

robo hippy

[John Kananis]

I went with the Carter and sons, direct from their site. I'm hopeful the handle feels nice... regardless, all the help is appreciated - thank you.

[Thomas Canfield]

For a dedicated bottom feeder you can make a wood handle and know that it is always ready and not be changing tools, and save some $$ to buy a better gouge or something in the future. This is a never ending process.

[Reed Gray]

I never liked their handles. My favorite handles are straight wood cylinders. The metal handles can be cold to the touch on cold days in the shop. Wood just feels better for me.

robo hippy

[John Kananis]

I went ahead and ordered the handle (although I share the same fear of a cold handle). Worst case, it's not that hard to turn a new handle.

[Richard Coers]

As far as I am concerned, the bottom feeders and bottom gouges are purely snake oil. Just another way to sell a bowl gouge to support professional turners that hawk them at demos. A highly refined scraper does a perfect job, and then a shear scraper to transition from the bottom to the sides is how I do it. Been doing that for 35 years.

[Reed Gray]

Richard, I will disagree with you here. I have only been turning, mostly bowls, for about 25 years, can't remember when I started.... I do prefer a 40/40 grind for almost all of my outside bowl work, and the 40/40 for the inside walls, but it won't make it through the transition and across the bottom of most of what I do. This is makes a BOB tool a necessity for me. As far as scrapers, they CAN do a good job sweeping across the bottom of a bowl. Also, they CAN do a fair job in the transition and on the walls of a bowl. The NRS (negative rake scraper) does a better job though, but it is still a CAN situation. The thing is the wood has a lot to do with how well they perform. Pacific madrone cuts well with just about anything. Big leaf maple does not. I do love a good shear scrape with a burnished burr as my finish cut. With the BLM, some times I have to settle for a gouge finish cut as that is the option that leaves the best surface. I watched a turner making a lamp base in dried hard/sugar maple, and he used a scraper with the burr honed off and the bevel polished. It left a beautiful surface with almost undetectable tear out. Couldn't see it, but could feel it.

Add to that, I almost never buy 'signature' tools. You pay extra for that signature. Part of why I never made or developed my own line of tools. The Big Ugly tool that I use was around for a long time before I picked it up. It may even be older than me...

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Add to that, I almost never buy 'signature' tools. You pay extra for that signature. Part of why I never made or developed my own line of tools. The Big Ugly tool that I use was around for a long time before I picked it up. It may even be older than me...

robo hippy

Wait a minute! I'm waiting to buy a "signature" Robo rest....... I'm willing to pay for that!

[Edward Weber]

I don't think a BOB is snake oil or absolutely necessary to complete a bowl.
IMHO, the finish you get on the bottom is a combination of the wood, the turner to and the tool used. You typically need two of the three to turn the bottom effectively and return a good aesthetic result.
Personally I try not to get caught up with which grind is which or who uses it. Use what works for you and call it whatever you want.

[Reed Gray]

Kyle, they will be out again, but not made by me. I still get a lot of requests for them. Running the business just took up too much of my fun time...

robo hippy

[Neil Strong]

D-Way has a 3/4" U shape gouge on sale (with or without handle). https://d-waytools.com/3-4-bowl-gouge-u-shaped-13-x-760-with-5-8-tang/

If I could only have one bowl gouge I would choose a D-way... but not the 3/4" U.

The website claim.... "An excellent gouge for roughing, and with the full radius flute - it makes a great shearing cut for finishing the inside and outside of bowls and platters."

Shear finishing cuts, yes. The larger the radius, the sweeter the shear cut. Long swept back wings on parabolic and catenary flutes are also good for that.

However, I found Dave's 3/4" U far too light for roughing cuts. To get its long U fluted edge that is optimised for shear cuts you are left with relatively little steel in the gouge. I found it to be too light and flimsy for big roughing cuts compared to my various other 3/4" BGs (Thompson, Woodcut & Crown).


I'm not convinced that you need a traditional U flute profile for the inside bottom of bowls. The V flute is definitely not ideal, even with a less swept back grind, but some parabolic and catenary flute profiles work quite well with a grind that is optimised for finishing off in that inside bottom area. I have found the slightly wider flute (as specified by Peter Child) on my Henry Taylor Superflute with a 65° grind does as good job as did the U flute on my old P&Ns.

Here are some of the flute profiles side by side...



479094
From left to right, P&N Super,
Thompson V, D-Way and Crown


479095
Thompson V on left and
Henry Taylor on right.


Looking at the flute profiles side by side you can see why the Peter Child designed HT Superflute is going to do a reasonable good 'BoB' job compare to the Thompson V.

The now departed Vicmarc bowl gouge would also do a reasonable 'BoB' job...



479099


...as would the Glenn Lucas designed bottom finisher made by Hamlet. See flute profile near the bottom of this webpage... https://www.glennlucaswoodturning.com/product/m42gl-6-%e2%85%9d-bar-%e2%88%85-bottom-finishing-bowl-gouge/

A dedicated U flute may be preferred by some for dedicated BoB work...


479100
Crown 1" U

...but, IME, they are not as versatile as the parabolic or catenary BG flute profiles and should you decide to change over to finishing the inside if your bowls with scrapers, like for example Richard Raffan does, then you are left with a gouge that is not so good for re-purposing for other uses...:D

[John Kananis]

Very informative, thank you. I'm quite new at turning but I did not find other uses for the u shape so I only went with one. And even if I do finish the inside with scrapers (been doing due diligence on the subject), I'll still need a gouge to get me close and I don't think (could totally be wrong) I can pull off hogging out the whole bottom with a 40/40.

[Neil Strong]

I'll still need a gouge to get me close and I don't think (could totally be wrong) I can pull off hogging out the whole bottom with a 40/40.

The 40/40, 45° and 55° are all too acute for the finishing cuts inside the bottom, IME. The 55° with the heel ground back will get you through the transition but I have found that 65° works OK. The 65° also does a good hogging out cut with something that goes between a push and pull cut... starting with a push cut at the rim to get the bevel rubbing and finishing off with more of a pull cut at very bottom. I do most of my turning outboard and that cut involves quite a bit of footwork and body rotation... as in the lathe tango!

[John Kananis]

Haha, lathe tango, love it.

The 65° you're saying will be best for the bottom using the U-shaped flute (as I have) or a parabolic? How far do you sweep back the wings (flute)? I was considering a 60° (65 sound good too though, too new to know better) grind with heel ground back to a 40° sweep. Would it be problematic? What am I not considering? Thanks again.

[John Kananis]

For clarity, I meant grind the heel back (at a nonspecific angle) and the wings at 40.

[Neil Strong]

The 65° you're saying will be best for the bottom using the U-shaped flute (as I have) or a parabolic? How far do you sweep back the wings (flute)? I was considering a 60° (65 sound good too though, too new to know better) grind with heel ground back to a 40° sweep. Would it be problematic? What am I not considering? Thanks again.

65° is just what I use, it is not necessarily the best bevel angle for everyone. Glenn Lucas uses 60° whiled others like Reed use 70°. Experiment and see what works for you.

The secondary heel bevel is done to eliminate metal to shorten the primary bevel so that the heel doesn't leverage the gouge out of the cut while going through the transition. Others give additional reasons for adding a secondary bevel, none of which are as important IME.

The width of the secondary heel bevel is more important than its angle. Those of us using a jig to sharpen just push our slides in a bit (or use a secondary bevel setting block with pivot point) and grind to give a relatively even primary bevel width.

Typically the wings on bottom finishing gouges are not swept back as much as on other bowl gouges as all the work is being done on the nose. Just relieve the wings a bit to avoid catching the outer tips of the flute.

[Randy Heinemann]

You might check with Trent Bosch at Trent Bosch Tools. I recently saw him demo a tool which, I think is essentially a gouge, but is ground differently on each side of the gouge cutting edge. It's difficult to explain. I don't know whether he sells it ground that way or not, but I'm sure he would be able to give you some direction on how to grind it. It gives an exceptionally smooth finish; both inside and outside of a bowl.

[John Kananis]

Hi Randy, I went with the Taylor and sons option. Slight grind (maybe 5 or 10 degrees) on the wings is what I went with and a 60° bevel. I'll check out Trent Bosch Tools though, thanks.

[Neil Strong]

You might check with Trent Bosch at Trent Bosch Tools. I recently saw him demo a tool which, I think is essentially a gouge, but is ground differently on each side of the gouge cutting edge. It's difficult to explain. I don't know whether he sells it ground that way or not, but I'm sure he would be able to give you some direction on how to grind it. It gives an exceptionally smooth finish; both inside and outside of a bowl.

A number of the older turners favoured an asymmetric grind, including Richards Raffan.

In the following short video he shows how he grinds it freehand, which is what we had to do before jigs came along...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idB-z6--FAs

Yes, it looks messy compared to a jig sharpened gouge, but it does the job!

And, if you would like a masterclass with him using various gouges that you will be familiar with that he has put that asymmetric grind on, here it is...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BH41jx05KI

Richard D., note the DIY screw chuck that Richard is using... :~}