Anyone make a set of hollows and rounds?

[Dan McGonigle]

I'm very interested in, eventually, making a 1/4 or 1/2 set of hollows and rounds. I'm wondering if any one has any resource recommendations for detailed plans, dimensions, etc. I have the Traditional Hand Plane book by Whelan, which has some great information, and am now looking for more. I've seen Red Rose Reproductions sells plans, but not sure I want to invest in those in additional to sourcing quartersawn beech, irons, and a set of floats. I have a handful of flea market finds for reference. I'm actually surprised Lost Art Press doesn't have a book just for this. Maybe I'm over-thinking it!

[Jim Koepke]

Stewie Simpson made a set a few years back > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?258178

An old post of mine also has some information on molding planes that may come in handy > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242156

There is a link in that thread for Calib James (Plane Maker) web site with some free plans for planes. Check the labels on the side of the page for some great information.

See you back here in a few weeks. :D

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

There is a useful Pop Wood article here: https://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/roubo-hollows-rounds/

The classic video, which sparked interest in many to make their own, is by Larry Williams (Old Street planes, formerly Clarke and Williams). Find a copy. It is excellent.

Preview: https://vimeo.com/41725472

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Dover]

I'm very interested in, eventually, making a 1/4 or 1/2 set of hollows and rounds. I'm wondering if any one has any resource recommendations for detailed plans, dimensions, etc.

There are tons of free plans on internet, or you could grab any vintage plane and copy dimensions, this is not a big deal. A hard requirement on some specialized tools is a big deal, though.

Currently nobody offers planemaker's floats. Maybe LN will continue production at some point, but today all the vendors that used to sell them are out of stock. You can't replace them with a milled tooth files - wrong shapes and also too slow. These files are finishing tools, real floats are faster and leave glass smooth surface. There were people that attempted making floats themselves. Observing their adventures I personally decided to wait for some vendor. Or maybe if we could find enough people we could put a small batch order to some manufacturing company: assuming a float retails at around 60$ a piece, probably an order of 20 floats of every type would make it sufficiently interesting for them.

A very narrow (less than 1/8") chisel is required. An old chisel can probably be ground narrow, so it's a lesser issue. Rest (holding devices, templates, jigs, slips, etc) can probably be made from bits and pieces collected around the shop.

Another factor is the cost of materials. Some time ago I did back of an envelope calculations, the total cost of tools and materials was around 80% of RRR or Brickford's price, don't really remember. That was with the assumption I would nail it down just perfect on the first attempt, or it would actually be more expensive than buying from Matt or RRR.

Another option could be going for a class if there's one in your area. Sadly, there are none in vicinity of my shop, and traveling to Roy's school (seems to be the only school that offers this class in 2022) is equal buying a full set from Larry Williams money wise.

Of course I'm assuming you're talking about a classic 18th century English hollow & round. If you want anything that could run a particular profile, there was an article by Matt Brickford in FWW showing a French style molding plane. It has a mortise completely open from one side, so regular tools would be enough. Not sure about longevity of such a plane, since there's just a thin sliver that holds both parts together, I'd expect it to warp pretty quickly. But given the simplicity of the construction you can just build another one in under an hour.

[Jim Koepke]

But given the simplicity of the construction you can just build another one in under an hour.

Under an hour would be remarkable even for someone with experience.

jtk

[Tyler Bancroft]

Currently nobody offers planemaker's floats.

Lee Valley does.

[Rafael Herrera]

Philly Planes does.

[Jack Dover]

Lee Valley does.

Lee Valley offers "Iwasaki carving files". They're files indeed, not floats — too slow. They're okay for little adjustments of existing cheeks and beds, but floating a rough mortise will take ages, because they clog very fast (they're very, very fine files).

[Jack Dover]

Philly Planes does.

Only the edge float, and for the price that's twice the LN price if you consider shipping from the other side of the pond. One needs at least three - an edge float, a cheek float and a bed float. A bed float is the least essential though, wide surfaces could be scraped.

[Jack Dover]

Under an hour would be remarkable even for someone with experience.

Well, maybe not under an hour. But that "French" type plane is literally a rectangular block of wood with a weird shaped dado, how long would that take? Shaping, hardening and tempering an iron, sharpening, fitting a wedge — that might take longer, so, say, a couple of hours?

I actually own one of such planes. Judging by its profile and a decoration style I'm pretty sure it was shop made by a Scandinavian guy. The wood is obviously a discarded off-cut with a nasty knot in it, it cracked and was crudely repaired with a nail. The plane has an old file for a cutter. Whoever made it didn't fret - blowouts, deeply scored layout lines, etc. The body has two moldings itself, quite coarsely cut, maybe even scraped. It's a surprisingly serviceable plane. It had a typical problem: a hump developed right behind the mouth, also the sole was worn and didn't match the iron. Or maybe iron didn't match the sole. But once this was remedied, it cut a clean, albeit unfamiliar, profile.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Lee Valley offers "Iwasaki carving files". They're files indeed, not floats — too slow. They're okay for little adjustments of existing cheeks and beds, but floating a rough mortise will take ages, because they clog very fast (they're very, very fine files).

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/files-and-rasps/files/69096-japanese-milled-tooth-extra-fine-side-plane-makers-float?item=62W3096

Not sure if this is what you're referring to, but I'd call that a float (as does LV). They call them extra-fine, but I'm not sure I'd call them that fine. I have a couple.

[Tom M King]

I have those floats. They are for finishing, and won't do a lot of hogging off material. They are more coarse than the Iwasaki finest wood files, but still nothing like a more common plane float. I just bought them in case I needed them for fine tuning sash joinery, and they have been very rarely used.

[Dan McGonigle]

A lot of great info, thanks everyone. Yes the planes I'd like to make are the traditional side escapement type. I've checked out some floats here and there, but Id really prefer the LN if they ever come back in stock. Finding QS beech may be tough though. I understand I can use any type of wood Id like, but Id like to keep to the tradition. I would probably have to find a supplier or mill that has beech, and pick out any QS pieces I see.

One question, is the hollow used to profile the round? One would make a hollow first, then use it to make the round? That would make only make sense.

[mike stenson]

It's easier to make the round first, and the hollow from that. I'll second the LN Traditional Side Escapement video.

[Jim Koepke]

There those who make their own floats. FWW had an article on it many years ago.

A float can be made up of a malleable steel. It just gets dull quickly compared to a hardened steel.

If one wants to try their hand at hardening it can be made out of O1 steel.

jtk

[Todd Trebuna]

Lost Art press has Matt Bickfords book “Moulding in practice”. I have not read it, but Chris Schwarz recommends it in his book “Handplane Essentials”.
based on the quality of Schwarz book, I have it on my list to pick up. The other thing highly recommended is the DVD series Making traditional side escapement planes. According to Schwarz, it essentially gives away all the secret secrets to making moulding planes. It’s available on DVD or streaming from Lie Nielsen.

[Paul Mosteller]

Hi Dan, I have an extra DVD - Classic Plane Making - Hollows & Rounds with Tod Herrli. It has a lot of good information including how to make your own floats. I took a class with him about 5 years ago and found him to be a great instructor. PM me your address and I'll send it to you. Paul
Edit - just searched for Tod on YouTube and it looks like someone has a series of videos there that are recent. The DVD is 15-20 years old.

[Anthony Watkins]

I'm still pretty new to hand tool woodworking and I've been investigating hollows and rounds recently as I want to try to duplicate the moulding on some early Edwardian skirting board in my house to replace a missing section. I expect to just keep watching eBay until the right sizes come up (I'm not fussed about have a matching set) as my skills are not yet anywhere near what they need to be to make moulding planes (I've just started a Paul Sellers-type router plane). But I do find plane making very interesting, hence I'm reading this thread.

All that is to preface what may be a staggeringly ignorant newbie question: since it's hard to make a traditional English-style moulding place without floats, and the French style is potentially weak, could one not make a laminated version along the lines of a Krenov?

[Rob Young]

I'm still pretty new to hand tool woodworking and I've been investigating hollows and rounds recently as I want to try to duplicate the moulding on some early Edwardian skirting board in my house to replace a missing section. I expect to just keep watching eBay until the right sizes come up (I'm not fussed about have a matching set) as my skills are not yet anywhere near what they need to be to make moulding planes (I've just started a Paul Sellers-type router plane). But I do find plane making very interesting, hence I'm reading this thread.

All that is to preface what may be a staggeringly ignorant newbie question: since it's hard to make a traditional English-style moulding place without floats, and the French style is potentially weak, could one not make a laminated version along the lines of a Krenov?

They won't be the cheapest but check if Jim Bode's site has a "harliquin half set" available. His stuff is generally of good quality but typically priced near the top of the value scale.

A harliquin set is generally made up of planes that while they do match and follow a size pattern, may not be all from the same maker. And a half set is less expensive than a full set by, well, about half.

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Anthony and welcome to the Creek.

Yes, it is possible to make a laminated version of a molding plane:

478633

This is one that was sent to me by another member here.

There are some good posts on making molding at Lost Art Press > https://blog.lostartpress.com/2018/04/02/molding-planes-best-friends/ < for one of them.

jtk

[Cory Newman]

I just signed up for a class with Red Rose Reproductions on making a pair of hollows and rounds in September. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Richard Hutchings]

Price near the top??? I guess you need to be a serious collector with deep pockets to by from him. What has the world come to. I guess I should have been buying these things up 30 years ago for 2 bucks a pop. Good grief.


They won't be the cheapest but check if Jim Bode's site has a "harliquin half set" available. His stuff is generally of good quality but typically priced near the top of the value scale.

A harliquin set is generally made up of planes that while they do match and follow a size pattern, may not be all from the same maker. And a half set is less expensive than a full set by, well, about half.

[Jim Koepke]

Price near the top??? I guess you need to be a serious collector with deep pockets to by from him. What has the world come to. I guess I should have been buying these things up 30 years ago for 2 bucks a pop. Good grief.

Yes, if there was more money available to me back then buying more would have been done and now would be profitable. Thankfully most of my planes were purchased before prices became so high.

There are two or three sized pairs in my assemblage of Hollows & Rounds from the same maker. In my set there are also a few with a different blade pitch.

Still, it looks like all of Jim Bode's H&R sets have sold. Some for ~$300 for a set of 18 planes. That is less than $20/plane. That is a price that would keep me from wanting to sell any of my Hollows or Rounds. (Some of the sets on the Jim Bode site have sold for over $1000)

My understanding is a Harlequin set has sized pairs from the same maker though all pairs can be from different makers. A double Harlequin set includes paired sizes being from different makers. Not sure if all sellers follow this convention.

jtk

[Richard Hutchings]

That $300 set was the only reasonable thing I saw on his site. I may have bought them had I been aware. My plan is to build my own set someday, how hard can it be.

[Eric Rathhaus]

Dan there are white a few plane makers on Instagram who seem very approachable, M Bickford Red Rose productions. For plane floats, you might try asking David Weaver if he would make you some. He has a youtube channel and a website.

[Warren Mickley]

I

All that is to preface what may be a staggeringly ignorant newbie question: since it's hard to make a traditional English-style moulding place without floats, and the French style is potentially weak, could one not make a laminated version along the lines of a Krenov?


I made some French style moulding planes in 1975. They are not weak. I have also made English style moulding planes without floats. Your question is not as ignorant as some of the comments that spawned it. I have not made a laminated moulding plane; they are designed for a maker that has more machine tool experience than hand tool.

Tod Herrli used to teach classes on making laminated moulding planes and produced a video on how to do it. Larry Williams took Herrli's class in 1996 when he wanted to learn how to make moulding planes.

[Rob Young]

Price near the top??? I guess you need to be a serious collector with deep pockets to by from him. What has the world come to. I guess I should have been buying these things up 30 years ago for 2 bucks a pop. Good grief.

As mentioned, there are sometimes $20/pair sets listed. It takes patience. Took me maybe 3 years of patience to find such a set and that was a while back. It was, however, when he still ran his storefront through eBay so I could use eBay's search and notify tools. So mostly it was down to me to jump on a deal if I saw it in time.

Now I think you'd have to write some web skimming code to get notified.

I forget the name, but the tool shop above The Woodwright's School frequently has pairs for sale. No on-line inventory search, you have to email or call. Which would be easier if I could remember the name...

Edit to add : https://www.woodwrightschool.com/the-tool-store

[Richard Hutchings]

Thanks, I'll look into that for sure when I get some more cash.

[Rafael Herrera]

In Patrick Leach's monthly list there are occasionally H&R full, half and partial sets. In the May list there is a half set for about $700.

Considering that a brand new pair costs in the region of $425 per pair, and a new full set is $7500, it makes sense to do some research and buy vintage and precisely the planes that you need.

[Tony Shea]

I know this has already been posted on but the DVD "Making Traditional Side Escapement Planes" is by far the most comprehensive video for making these planes that I've seen. Larry Williams is an absolute master and he explains the steps in the perfect amount of detail. If you watch and follow this DVD you will be on your way, there just isn't any better resource other than an in person class.

Making the Edge Plane float is doable for most people but the cheek and bed floats is were is gets a bit more tricky. It is really unfortunate that Lie Nielsen stopped making their floats, they are so well made and fit the bill perfectly. I would look and ask around here and other places if people have some that they are willing to sell you. They are invaluable for this task. As others have said, you will also need the 1/10" Chisel. Another tool Lie Nielsen used to make that is perfect for the task. Red Rose also made some of these chisels. I would contact him and see if he has one laying around or if he plans on offering them again. He should also be able to tell you where to get some floats, wood, and whatever else you might need for plane making. He also has tapered molding plane iron blanks. Some sizes are not in stock at them moment but he should be able to tell you when. Lie Nielsen also used to offer the tapered irons as well. IMO it is worth buying these tapered iron blanks as it just makes life much easier for a woodworker doing much less metal work than I would like.

I have not made a full half set yet but have made 3 pairs. The last pair def came out the best but all 6 planes are very usable. I also made a 3/4" rabbet plane that came out great. If I was to make another plane I would probably make a 1" or 1 1/8" rabbet. The wider plane would be a little easier to steer around making moldings. That hardest part for me was hardening the steel. The first 3 attempts at hardening I ended up failing at. Getting a feel for how hot and what color the steel needs to be at for the critical temperature takes a bit of experience. The first 3 attempts I never got the steel hot enough, I was worried about overheating the steel. My furnace setup was just some fire bricks stacked with a Map gas torch therefore I didn't have a ton of control. Eventually I figured it out and now have all my irons plenty hard enough, which is incredibly satisfying. It's like finishing a piece of furniture, the instant satisfaction of a properly hardened iron just amazed me. I made so many needless shavings with my first successful attempt just because I was blown away at the difference between my failed attempts.

Making your own molding planes is so much fun and I hope you can successfully source the tools and materials that you need. But be careful, it can become an addiction as you can see by guys like Matt Bickford, Larry Williams, and the guys behind Red Rose. Good luck!

[Jim Koepke]

In Patrick Leach's monthly list there are occasionally H&R full, half and partial sets. In the May list there is a half set for about $700.

This month there is a set of 30 H&Rs listed for ~$795. My guess is it may already be sold.

My accumulation has been mostly purchased and some were acquired by trading for them. The exact number of how many are in my kit eludes me. My attempt at counting my planes ended when it got to about 60.

My best guess for my group of Hollows & Rounds is it probably set me back less than $300. It includes all but one of the even numbered sizes and a few of the odd numbered sizes.

With a pair of the same size H&R from different makers it is easy to use one of the pair to make the other conform so they are matched to each other.

jtk

[Rob Young]

Thanks, I'll look into that for sure when I get some more cash.

To add, Ed seems to specialize in user grade stuff. Not so pretty, maybe a ding or two but certainly can be tuned up to work. Jim's stuff tends to be higher-end and so is priced accordingly. Been happy with purchases made from both.

Horses for courses as they say.

Good luck!

[john jesseph]

Tod Herrli does not teach laminated plane making. He used to use laminated plane blanks, but the construction was and is somewhat conventional.

[Richard Hutchings]

With todays glues, I don't think there's any reason to not use laminated construction.

[Jim Koepke]

With todays glues, I don't think there's any reason to not use laminated construction.

Tradition and aesthetics are always good reasons. Learning and execution are a couple more.

jtk

[Richard Hutchings]

I totally agree with you. I would prefer to make them in the traditional way and I have the wood stashed for this purpose. I still may start out with laminated just to be sure I can make a usable plane. As much as I want to build a plane, I don't want to buy expensive floats to do it. Not right now anyway.