Seems I always have sharpening questions...

[James Jayko]

Hey all, here is what I have:



Two sided Trend diamond stone, 300/1000 grit
1,000 grit Ohishi water stone
3,000/10,000 grit combination Ohishi water stone
DMT lapping plate for the water stones
Lie-Nielsen honing guide


I love the water stones; the do dish a bit but they seem to be effective. My problem is that I have been trying to use the Trend diamond stone for reshaping the primary bevel and it is horrifically slow. So my question is does anyone have a very aggressive solution that they like? I have heard of people using the lapping plate, but that sounds like a horrible idea. I like the water stones, but anything course enough to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish is going to dish like crazy, too. It seems like a diamond stone would be the answer, but it definitely isn't the Trend combination one that I already own.

Anyone have any suggestions? Even if its way out of the box. I can't really grind because I'm an apartment dweller at the moment who uses a public workshop space.

Thanks!

[Richard Coers]

Hey all, here is what I have:



Two sided Trend diamond stone, 300/1000 grit
1,000 grit Ohishi water stone
3,000/10,000 grit combination Ohishi water stone
DMT lapping plate for the water stones
Lie-Nielsen honing guide


I love the water stones; the do dish a bit but they seem to be effective. My problem is that I have been trying to use the Trend diamond stone for reshaping the primary bevel and it is horrifically slow. So my question is does anyone have a very aggressive solution that they like? I have heard of people using the lapping plate, but that sounds like a horrible idea. I like the water stones, but anything course enough to accomplish what I'm trying to accomplish is going to dish like crazy, too. It seems like a diamond stone would be the answer, but it definitely isn't the Trend combination one that I already own.

Anyone have any suggestions? Even if its way out of the box. I can't really grind because I'm an apartment dweller at the moment who uses a public workshop space.

Thanks!
An 8" low speed grinder with a Norton 3X 80 grit wheel. Once you learn to grind, sharpening becomes a mere touch up on the stone. You only have to grind once every few months, but makes honing a breeze.

[Prashun Patel]

Slow speed grinder with a cbn wheel or worksharp 3000 with cbn discs.

[James Jayko]

I'm in an apartment and using a public workshop; grinder isn't really an option...

[Jim Koepke]

I'm in an apartment and using a public workshop; grinder isn't really an option...

Hi James, have you tried abrasive sheets (aka sandpaper)?

My solution is likely not going to be your solution. Mine is a four foot long piece of granite with pressure sensitive adhesive (PSA) backed roll stock abrasive attached. Most often it has a 2 or 300 grit paper attached.

For use in an apartment you might pick up a piece of granite tile from the local big box store. Maybe take a good straight edge with you to check it for flatness.

The paper will wear down, but so do diamond plates. The paper is cheaper and easier to replace.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

A coarse crystolon bench stone will be more aggressive than your diamond stones. Distribute the stone wear to keep it flat, use plenty of oil.

Alternatively, 80 or 120 grit PSA sandpaper and the honing guide. Don't burn your fingers.

[Jim Koepke]

A coarse crystolon bench stone will be more aggressive than your diamond stones. Distribute the stone wear to keep it flat, use plenty of oil.

Alternatively, 80 or 120 grit PSA sandpaper and the honing guide. Don't burn your fingers.

If a blade is in real bad shape, a coarse grade of sandpaper may be in order.

Remember, the bigger the scratches made by one grade of abrasive the more time it takes to work them out on the next grade.

Crystolon is an oilstone. Going from an oilstone to a water stone can be weird. It is difficult to get every last micron of oil off of the blade being worked. Any oil tends to make the tool being honed float on a water stone, DAMHIKT!

jtk

[Michael Bulatowicz]

If a stone is desired rather than sandpaper, sharpeningsupplies.com has a very coarse silicon carbide stone that they call “the grinder stone.” They recommend that it be used with water rather than oil.

I have had one for a few months now. It is the fastest stone I’ve ever used, and seems to stay flat a bit more easily than my coarse Crystolon. So far I’ve mostly used it for rehabbing some ridiculously dull old chisels and a couple of Kent pattern hewing hatchets. The scratch depth seems comparable to my broken-in DMT extra coarse, but it cuts significantly faster than the DMT. The 300 grit side of your Trend stone should be able to remove the scratches fairly quickly, I would expect.

[Richard Coers]

I'm in an apartment and using a public workshop; grinder isn't really an option...
I don't understand? Lay down a canvas tarp. The sparks are dead by the time they reach the floor. Or use a wet wheel Tormek

[Tom Benson]

For what it's worth, I've found the Trend diamond stone to be incredibly slow. I'm not an expert, but I suspect that's a poor stone that wears quickly. Sandpaper is the option that worked best for me. If you can't afford a granite slab or float glass, I've found some tiles at Home Depot to be pretty flat and they're only a few bucks apiece. I would bring a straight edge with you to go through them to make sure the one you get is flat.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm in an apartment and using a public workshop; grinder isn't really an option...


I don't understand? Lay down a canvas tarp. The sparks are dead by the time they reach the floor. Or use a wet wheel Tormek

Richard, you seem to be missing something here. James doesn't have any place to set up a grinder. He doesn't appear to have a shop set up in his apartment. He is using a public workspace that may not be secure. He may also be in a financial place that many of us have been in where investing in a grinder, even if he had a place to use one, is not practical at this time. I have been there.

There are other ways to solve his current needs without having the luxury of a powered sharpening system.

jtk

[Robert Engel]

A Worksharp wouldn't make much noise.

How far off is the primary bevel?

As mentioned, sandpaper is probably the best option. A piece of melamine is good enough.

[glenn bradley]

The Trend diamond products I have tried have all worn out way too fast. They are all gone while I still use a DMT diamond plate from 2002. That being said, wheel grinders aside, coarse diamond products tend to lose their initial aggressiveness rather quickly. I never use stones for reshaping but I do understand your limitation of the apartment life. A wheel grinder would undoubtedly rouse the neighbors. A Worksharp 3K with 80 grit paper would be quieter but I would probably try glass (scary sharp) with a quality abrasive (https://www.klingspor.com/PS21-80-Grit-F-2-3-4-X-10MT-PSA-NL-Roll-173427) given your particular circumstances. I do find it surprising that a community workshop wouldn't have a wheel grinder. Even a cheapie would be better than nothing. Sorry . . . I got off track. You can shape things tolerably with a roll of PSA abrasive, a piece of glass, and a guide. For work that coarse you could even use a piece of tile from the BORG. My scary sharp setup uses tile for the first two coarse grits then moves to glass for the micro abrasive film.

[Richard Hutchings]

I wish I had someone to teach me good sharpening practices in the beginning. You can read about sharpening all you want but there's nothing better than a good mentor. Seems like I'm still learning and I'm 68, been playing with sharp tools all my life. Seems like only recently that I finally realized the importance of the burr. I always tried for a burr but didn't really understand it. Now that I do, I've gone back to my oilstones to see if I could have gotten as good an edge as I do with my Shaptons. Turns out I can. I don't own a translucent or a surgical black but it doesn't matter. A good strop with green or gold compound and I'm there. At least with the steels I currently own.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I had the same experience with coarse diamond stones (DMT Diasharp X-Coarse) back when I was beginning. I assumed they'd be super fast, but it never really turned out that way. They are still useful for many things, but removing a lot of material is not my preferred use. Really, the only stone I've had that was much good for coarse work is a coarse Crystolon. It's an oil stone, but sheds grit almost like a waterstone. So it doesn't stay super flat, but does maintain its cutting speed over time unlike an India stone. For bevel work, you don't need it to stay super flat. Just try to use the whole stone as much as possible to keep it within reason. Keep in mind, with the oil and loose grit it is a very messy stone.

A fresh sheet of 80 grit PSA paper stuck on something flat is the fastest way to hand grind that I've found, especially if you need to produce a flat surface. "Fresh" is important; the paper slows down dramatically after a few minutes of use. If you're trying to remove a lot of material, keep changing the paper.

[Matt Hunstiger]

Adding to the mentions of float glass and sandpaper, I recently got three pieces of float glass from a glass store, 3"x8" each, for about 18 dollars total. I called and they cut exactly what size I wanted. I use adhesive backed sandpaper for coarse grinding when needed. I have 3M Stikit Gold paper in a few different coarse grits. If that is of interest to you, and you have a glass company nearby, try giving them a call.

[Rafael Herrera]

By chance I managed to damage the edge of a smoother iron, Moulson Bros. tapered, laminated. The pictures show the grinding progress. The stones are a vintage Carborundum combi stone and a Washita. Pics are damaged iron, after coarse, after fine, after washita, after strop. I think the grinding took about 15min, not very long, just used the stone, no sandpaper prep or dragging the granite slab onto the bench. The rest of the sharpening was typical.

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[James Jayko]

LOL nice. Tormek would actually be awesome. I can keep that in one of the cupboards in my tiny kitchen...

[Jack Dover]

If a stone is desired rather than sandpaper, sharpeningsupplies.com has a very coarse silicon carbide stone that they call “the grinder stone.” They recommend that it be used with water rather than oil.

I have had one for a few months now. It is the fastest stone I’ve ever used, and seems to stay flat a bit more easily than my coarse Crystolon.

I got this stone too. My experience is somewhat different.

I had to send this first stone back, because it had soft spots taking more than 75% of the surface and it seems they went all the way through to the other side. Soft spots are a problem, but not because they're scratchy - they never stay flat, always dish down. Sharpening supplies has one of the best customer service, actually, I initially reached out with a question and their representative just sent me a new stone, no extra questions asked. The second stone also had some soft spots, but they were superficial and almost gone now.

The other problem is this stone glazes over fast. It indeed stays flat longer than Nortons coarse crystolon (which is really is never flat), but it stops grinding very soon. When this happens, it stops cutting and starts polishing, producing almost a flawless bright mirror. I'm aware about this particular property of oilstones, therefore my oilstones come in pairs, one is glazed, the other is refreshed often. But this particular stone glazes over within minutes of use. In this sense it behaves like a waterstone: needs to be refreshed with a flattening stone prior usage and wants lots and lots of runny lapping fluid. Sharpening supplies recommendation is to use it with water indeed, so idk, maybe it clogs because of oil? Crushed crystals form quite thick paste quite fast, so maybe using it over a pond, constantly flushing with lots of water is the intended mode of operation?

[Jack Dover]

after coarse, after fine, after washita, after strop.

This is an interesting progression. My washita is somewhere in medium - fine range, depending on a state of a particular stone. It can do almost as fine as India, but not even close to the hard\black arkie. What's your fine stone I wonder?

[Justin Kwong]

Wow, that is a large stone. How do you lap it?

[Rafael Herrera]

This is an interesting progression. My washita is somewhere in medium - fine range, depending on a state of a particular stone. It can do almost as fine as India, but not even close to the hard\black arkie. What's your fine stone I wonder?

Not as much pressure on the washita after removing the burr, finish with the strop. I've tried a translucent and even a black ark after the washita and if it gets any sharper it is not noticeable in use, it just adds time to the sharpening.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I had the same problem and often simply do not want to set up the grinder, adjust the tool rest and fool with it. KME makes a 100 grit diamond stone.

[Jack Dover]

My problem is that I have been trying to use the Trend diamond stone for reshaping the primary bevel and it is horrifically slow.

300 grit is a too fine to be considered a grinding grit, it's rather the beginning of polishing sequence - remember this is a different scale than a waterstone. Another thing is that diamonds are slow. You could get a 150 grit plate, I think this is the coarsest a diamond plate could get, but it still will be slower than other abrasives. It will also be quite scratchy, not exactly sure why, vaguely remember it's some sort of a manufacturing process limitation.

I personally think that the coarsest, grinding grit is in 60-80 grit range. One option is sandpaper, a fresh sheet of SiCa 80 grit will make a quick job of pretty much any nick you might get on a woodworking tool. You could go fancy and get a zirconia belt or something. With a sharpening guide 80 grit totally can re-grind a primary bevel, you'll even get a few sparks.

But maybe you like unification, then another option would be loose diamond on a substrate. There's a guy on the red forum who swears by loose diamonds, his claim is that 5-6µ paste on cast iron is a very fast abrasive. He's using a grinder though, so not sure what exactly "very fast" applies to. If memory serves me right, Derek tried every abrasive out there, probably he could provide more context than me. There are pastes with about 50-60µ diamonds, that's around 80-100 ANSI grit, should be fast enough.

And if noice is the primary concern, I would consider Veritas power sharpener. It's the same type as Worksharp, just better quality and has jigs of various cutters. Or maybe consider some kind of a small grinder. A small Craftsman universal grinder is still sold on ebay, often "new in a box" (since it was available in Sears stores not too long ago), there are wet horizontal Makita grinders or similar Wen grinders. These are low rpm, most of them are wet (there's a container for water or a dripper), about as loud as a kitchen appliance, but come with all the risks of buying second hand. Here's a random ebay listing (https://www.ebay.com/itm/115361409131?hash=item1adc13686b:g:mSIAAOSwxn1iaJb p) for the Craftsman sharpener. There are other models, older or newer, and a ton of replicas from other companies. This (https://www.ebay.com/itm/144428099355?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=3ry-96_0RF2&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY) is another type, from Wen.

[Jack Dover]

Not as much pressure on the washita after removing the burr, finish with the strop. I've tried a translucent and even a black ark after the washita and if it gets any sharper it is not noticeable in use, it just adds time to the sharpening.

Yeah, I also don't think a woodworker has to go higher than a soft Arkansas, since it produces sufficient polish to move to strop right away. It's just I do washita - soft Arkansas/fine India and was surprised to see you do the opposite. I guess it could work, one could own two washitas, one would be constantly refreshed, the other would be worn and flattened only occasionally. Or there could be a particularly fine washita.

[Jack Dover]

Adding to the mentions of float glass and sandpaper, I recently got three pieces of float glass from a glass store, 3"x8" each, for about 18 dollars total.

Apparently Home Depot sells glass shelves in various sizes. They're quite thick, flat, I think the smallest one is 7"x18" long, sold for ~18$, which is a good size for backs flattening.

[Jack Dover]

Wow, that is a large stone. How do you lap it?

The stone is 12" long, so a regular 3"x8" inexpensive diamond plate works just fine.

[Michael Bulatowicz]

I got this stone too. My experience is somewhat different.

I had to send this first stone back, because it had soft spots taking more than 75% of the surface and it seems they went all the way through to the other side. Soft spots are a problem, but not because they're scratchy - they never stay flat, always dish down. Sharpening supplies has one of the best customer service, actually, I initially reached out with a question and their representative just sent me a new stone, no extra questions asked. The second stone also had some soft spots, but they were superficial and almost gone now.

The other problem is this stone glazes over fast. It indeed stays flat longer than Nortons coarse crystolon (which is really is never flat), but it stops grinding very soon. When this happens, it stops cutting and starts polishing, producing almost a flawless bright mirror. I'm aware about this particular property of oilstones, therefore my oilstones come in pairs, one is glazed, the other is refreshed often. But this particular stone glazes over within minutes of use. In this sense it behaves like a waterstone: needs to be refreshed with a flattening stone prior usage and wants lots and lots of runny lapping fluid. Sharpening supplies recommendation is to use it with water indeed, so idk, maybe it clogs because of oil? Crushed crystals form quite thick paste quite fast, so maybe using it over a pond, constantly flushing with lots of water is the intended mode of operation?

Interesting. It seems that you've had quite a different experience.

Among the differences, it sounds like you may be using heavy pressure, which is not my typical practice.

I haven't observed any soft spots on mine, but again I'm not bearing down--nor am I saying that is what you're doing.

I only use it with water; it's quite porous, and I do periodically flood the stone with water during use so that the surface stays wet. Mine only seems to build up a slurry if I apply pressure beyond a certain threshold. The same is true of my coarse Crystolon, but my Crystolon seems to slurry somewhat more easily (used with oil) than my "grinder stone" (used with water). The slurry on my grinder stone doesn't seem to cause any problems, nor does it glaze the stone; a quick rinse and it's washed away.

With both stones, I modulate pressure while sharpening to control whether and where it slurries. I find that when they slow down (which takes a while--I haven't tumed it, but certainly more than mere minutes of use), generating a slurry (which if left on the stone can be expected to break down into finer particles if the pressure remains heavy) will speed it back up. Controlling how and where I generate a slurry also helps keep the stone reasonably flat. I have never specifically lapped either of these stones, nor have I ever "refreshed" them with a flattening stone. I cannot say I've seen a need.

I've only ever used one of each ("grinder stone" and Crystolon), so perhaps my examples of each are not typical and the comparison is dependent on which example of each you end up getting. I also may not be using them with the same pressure or the same steel(s); this may make a difference, too.

I'm curious: have you experimented with how the stone responds to different steels and different amounts of pressure?

[Luke Dupont]

Yeah, I also don't think a woodworker has to go higher than a soft Arkansas, since it produces sufficient polish to move to strop right away. It's just I do washita - soft Arkansas/fine India and was surprised to see you do the opposite. I guess it could work, one could own two washitas, one would be constantly refreshed, the other would be worn and flattened only occasionally. Or there could be a particularly fine washita.


A Washita is quite a bit finer than a fine India, and will even produce a finer edge than a Soft Ark most of the time. It has the distinct advantage of being both faster and finer than a Soft Ark.

I never use a Soft after a Washita for that reason. The Washita replaces the Soft Ark.

If you sharpen on a Washita -> Leather Strop and then Arkansas -> Leather Strop, you'll notice what I mean. The Washita will generally give you a much finer edge, though this depends somewhat on the condition of the particular stones.

A good black or transluscent will improve the edge after either, though. And, if you're sharpening razors, a full progression with some middle stone between the Washita or Soft and the Black/Transluscent is kind of necessary (a "Hard" but not "True Hard" Arkansas being the middle stone, generally). So, the Washita definitely doesn't get as fine as a true hard Arkansas, but it's typically capable of getting somewhere near, say, one of Dan's "Hard" Arkansas stones.

[Rafael Herrera]

Yeah, I also don't think a woodworker has to go higher than a soft Arkansas, since it produces sufficient polish to move to strop right away. It's just I do washita - soft Arkansas/fine India and was surprised to see you do the opposite. I guess it could work, one could own two washitas, one would be constantly refreshed, the other would be worn and flattened only occasionally. Or there could be a particularly fine washita.

The Washita I used is the coarsest or softest of all the washitas I have. The other ones feel "harder". None of mine are labeled, so I don't know how they were graded by the manufacturer. When they are labeled, the sticker on the ends of the stone, if present, indicates the grade. My understanding is that the coarser grades are more desirable than the fine/hard grades because they're faster. The ones that I have that feel hard don't bite as well and are slow, so don't get used much.

Pressure makes a difference, see what results you get when you apply different pressures. Like really press to remove metal, reduce to polish the edge. You can feel the stone grinding the metal with more pressure, and sort of just skating the stone with less pressure.