New Shop - Best Dust Collection Vendor

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hi

I just moved into a new home in Delaware. One of the wonderous features of the property is a 30' x 30' pole barn that I am developing as a wood shop. I just got the blessing from SWMBO to install a proper dust collection system. I am looking for a company that will aid me in the design, and sell the appropriate equipment - both duct work and DC. I have the following machines:

Sawstop PCS - with Floating Overarm Dust Collector (2 connections)
Jet 6" Jointer
DeWalt 735 Planer
Jet 10/20" sander
Laguna SUV bandsaw (2 connections)
Bosch Mitre Saw
Jet OSS
Jet 17" Floor mounter Drill Press

I can arrange these all in whatever layout would be best for dust collection. I have 220 service in the barn. Who do I call? It used to be Penn State and Oneida. Are they still around, and are there new companies that might be better resources? Any and all help is very appreciated.

Thanks

Joe

[Bryan Lisowski]

Oneida and Clearvue should be able to design and supply all components you will need. Harvey also has their dust collector, just no sure they design. Once you have the design and parts you may be able to source cheaper than those 2.

[Jim Becker]

Oneida and Clearvue are generally the vendors that fit the description of your needs. Both can and will do duct design and even offer to provide the ductwork components.

I'm firmly in the Oneida camp with great experiences over several systems over the years.

[Leigh Betsch]

I have a ClearVu. It has been fine but if I did it over I’d likely go with an Oneida or a metal ClearVu instead of the MDF ClearVu. I like the idea that ClearVu credits Bill Pentz for his pioneering work in dust collection but I would look more seriously at Oneida if there is a next time. I dropped my plastic ClearVu cyclone when I had it in storage and cracked it. I was able to glue it easily enough but metal wouldn’t have been damaged.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Joe,

I recently put in a new Oneida V-3000 DC and new ductwork. I did the first draft of the design then sent it to Oneida to refine it. It took a couple back and forths but in the end they did a good job. If you buy any ductwork from them they'll subtract the design fee. One tip is to check with a local hvac dealer for the pipe and get the wyes, reducers etc from Oneida.

Cliff

[Rod Sheridan]

If you’re looking for a cyclone I would go with Oneida, I did 20 years ago, still working great……Rod

[james manutes]

I'm interested in which DC Oneida suggests for 900 sq. ft. shop size and those tools . I'm not in need of anything myself , but curious just the same .

[Jeremy Treibs]

I feel the daunting task before you as I recently took this journey.

I went with the Oneida Gorilla Pro 5 hp and 7" clamp together metal piping from Blast Gate Co. Looking at the Oneida website now, it looks like the 3hp and 5 hp gorilla pro collectors are the same price... and both of them are 1000 more than i paid for them 6 months ago. Yay inflation...

As far as the ducting, It cost me 900 dollars to ship from Blast Gate Co to me in Washington state. The shipping was absolutely a gut punch. However, doing research into comparable Nordfab piping (sold locally by Grizzly), 1 for 1 swapping with the Blast Gate Co piping, fittings, and blast gates, would have added 1000 dollars to my shipped price (and then I still would have had to pay sales tax). Discussing the compatibility with Blast Gate Co, everything Nordfab fits theirs except adjustable sleeve pieces (my guess is because ID is different due to slightly different gage steel being used).

Based off my experience with Oneida and Blast Gate Co, my recommendation is to go with them. I chose Oneida due to their smart feature and their standard filtration is better than the standard offering of ClearVue.

[Jim Becker]

I'm interested in which DC Oneida suggests for 900 sq. ft. shop size and those tools . I'm not in need of anything myself , but curious just the same .

I resemble that remark with my planned new shop building, for the most part relative to size. etc. Their 3 hp system will likely do the job just fine, but I'll likely opt for the 5hp for even better performance when I'm running both my CNC and another large tool simultaneously. The cost difference isn't substantial, IMHO.

I'm also already on the Blastgate Company band-wagon for clamp-together duct in my temporary shop and will continue that in the new building, too.

[Clifford McGuire]

I feel the daunting task before you as I recently took this journey.

I went with the Oneida Gorilla Pro 5 hp and 7" clamp together metal piping from Blast Gate Co. Looking at the Oneida website now, it looks like the 3hp and 5 hp gorilla pro collectors are the same price... and both of them are 1000 more than i paid for them 6 months ago. Yay inflation...
.

OMG, you're not kidding. I bought a Oneida V3000 3HP for $2499 about 9 months ago. It's now $3499.

I went with 6" PVC from the big box store. It was heavier and harder and more time consuming, but a lot less money.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I’m interested in the feedback as well.
I have a similar list of tools (some more too but I’m sure that’s true for the OP as well with several on the list being larger). I have been considering upgrading my 20+ year old Grizzly 2 hp dust collector (modified with a Thein baffle). I exhaust out of a window (I understand the HVAC implications but it’s really not that noticeable in my climate).

My problem is my current unit actually works well and I’m concerned I may be disappointed with an “upgrade”.

I’ve looked at the Oneida offerings several times and they market them well. But that Harvey unit is intriguing. They are very different designs and I can’t tell how much functional difference one would see with them.

In the end - I wonder if my old 2hp Grizzly actually may work as good as these much more expensive units. I have had a number of Grizzly tools over the years and have upgraded all but my dust collector. But dang ir does a really good job. I also have a pulley system rigged up to lift the baffle from the metal trash can the baffle dumps chips into so most of the original dust collector design has been modified. I mean in the end it’s a blower which is an impeller connected to a motor. And if the impeller is made for the right combination of flow and pressure then what is gained by these other units? I understand a higher powered unit could move more air but I’m a one man hobbyist. Maybe too it’s that I duct exhaust outside that I see good performance.

But the units mentioned here sure look sexy!

[Alan Lightstone]

Joe:

My tools are somewhat oversized from yours, but I am a one man hobbyist. I chose the 5HP Oneida. Overkill - perhaps, but it works great for some long runs and curves to machines, especially my wide belt sander.

No issues. It just plain works, so I'm a believer.

[Jim Becker]

Eric, I admit that the Harvey is interesting. But it would also require rethinking how I set things up on the shop because it doesn't have the same air flow as the larger Oneida cyclones and I really do want to run both the CNC and another big tool simultaneously. I'm concerned that the Harvey "in real life", not from manufacturer marketing, would be up to my expectations. But I have plenty of time to consider things still...

[Thomas Wilson]

The variable speed drive in the Oneida Smart Gorilla Pro is a big advancement. The answer to most dust collection problems is more air. The variable speed does this over a range of conditions. A 4 inch port that needs 800 CFM to catch all the dust. No problem. Conventional fixed speed blowers cannot match it.

The Harvey also has variable speed. It has a different separation technology than the usual vertical cyclone.

[Jim Becker]

I agree, Thomas, and it's yet another reason I remain a big fan of Oneida.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Eric,

I recently upgraded a Shop Fox 2 hp model to an Oneida v-3000 3hp along with new, more extensive ductwork. It made a big difference and I'm very pleased with the results.

Cliff

[Chris Parks]

The variable speed drive in the Oneida Smart Gorilla Pro is a big advancement. The answer to most dust collection problems is more air. The variable speed does this over a range of conditions. A 4 inch port that needs 800 CFM to catch all the dust. No problem. Conventional fixed speed blowers cannot match it.

The Harvey also has variable speed. It has a different separation technology than the usual vertical cyclone.

Any 3 phase dust extractor with a VFD will do exactly the same thing including Cleavue. Personally I would not buy a single phase dust extractor if you gave me the money and I can't understand why the dominant companies in the industry still sell them.

[Jim Becker]

Any 3 phase dust extractor with a VFD will do exactly the same thing including Cleavue. .

It's not the inclusion of variable speed, but the automation of the same with the Oneida setup. It senses airflow conditions and adjusts accordingly for most efficient extraction.

[Chris Parks]

It's not the inclusion of variable speed, but the automation of the same with the Oneida setup. It senses airflow conditions and adjusts accordingly for most efficient extraction.

That can be done automatically with a VFD if it is programmed correctly. I did a commercial installation where the system did exactly that but don't ask me how the programming was done because I don't have a clue.

[Jim Becker]

That's the thing...Oneida has done the work so the "average consumer" can just buy a system that has the automatic flow sensing and adjustments. Of course, that largely benefits folks in North America, although I believe that the company does market some products in other geographies. I do agree that such a thing can be accomplished on other systems for sure, however, with time and money.

[Chris Parks]

Yes, but the option is still there using any three phase DE. If Oneida were really serious they would not sell single phase machines at all as they clearly have internal VFD's that does the job. I have formed the view in recent times that single phase is too restrictive for efficient DE control but it has taken a long time for that to finally sink in. I think that is because all the cyclones I have installed or sold over many years have been three phase so I have never given the single phase much thought. All those cyclones have been Clearvues into hobby workshops with only a few commercial installations and everyone loves the result.

[Chris Parks]

I should clarify what I wrote above, when I say 3 phase I am saying that a three phase motor is used by utilising a VFD from a single phase power supply. I was able to introduce Clearvue Cyclones to Oz about 10 years ago because this was the only way we could do it and achieve 60hz/3450RPM motor speed and Oneida are clearly using the same method with an internal VFD. A VFD can be be used to control motor speed using a three phase power supply but I believe that would be fairly rare in the US.

[Thomas Wilson]

Chris, using a 3 phase motor and variable frequency drive which also converts single phase to 3 phase is a great idea. I would have appreciated the lighter 3 phase motor when I was lifting my single phase motor and impeller 9 ft up in the air. Unfortunately, no has not done it on a dust collector yet in the US. Keep preaching it. Surely, someone here will take up the challenge.

[Malcolm McLeod]

That can be done automatically with a VFD if it is programmed correctly. I did a commercial installation where the system did exactly that but don't ask me how the programming was done because I don't have a clue.

I have the Clearvue EF-5 ordered with 5hp 3-phase motor (for my 1-ph shop). I put a Huanyang VFD on it primarily for 1->3-ph conversion and programmed to run at up to 60hz. And so it stands today - working great. The tinker imperative is now suppressed.

Work and SWMBO's honey-do list are impeding my rountuit list, but the VFD internally supports PID control, can sense current, and can easily be re-config'd to run at 70-80hz max (will experiment, but >80hz could get LOUD?). I will use the amp draw as the PV (input) to the PID, and the CV (output) will be the speed command, SP (setpoint) will be the motor's FLA. The VFD will try to run at the motor FLA, up to the max Hz; faster with small duct/low flow, slower with large duct/high flow.

My personal neoSMART should be possible with no additional hardware, sensors, or connections. Simply setup the parameters. I'll be glad to report how ...maybe tomorrow, or the 15th, or August, or retirement?:confused:

[Rod Sheridan]

I'm interested in which DC Oneida suggests for 900 sq. ft. shop size and those tools . I'm not in need of anything myself , but curious just the same .

Hi James, the size isn't based upon square footage, it's based upon the duct length and the machine requirements.

My major tools are a saw with a 5" port for under blade and a 2" port above blade.

I also have a jointer/planer with a 5 inch port, and a bandsaw and 2 floor sweeps.

My duct lengths are extremely short under 12 feet at the longest

I have a 1.5 HP Oneida Cyclone.............Regards, Rod.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

It sure sounds like everyone is on-board with the Oneida. I’m thinking that will be my next big purchase. I just have to explain to my wife how I need it after buying the Makita dust extractor. No matter how many times I’ve done it - I never know how to start that conversation!

But I’m not understanding the need for the variable speed (at least for me).

I’m actually quite adept at the technology and then some in terms of the drive and how to make it do whatever I need it to. But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. I’m thinking it’s because I exhaust outside and don’t have the issue of optimizing for best separation and such. I can see that and possibly that’s why it is viewed this way. If I were trying to keep my filters clean as long as possibly then I’d do that. When I’m using a small hose with a lot of restriction such as for my sander the motor just does less work. When I have large ports open then I want it to do more work and it does.

Is the dust separation optimization the only reason for the speed control?

[Malcolm McLeod]

... But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. ...

I listened to the Oneida sales pitch before my purchase. I never heard 'separation optimization', but maybe they changed the pitch. As I understood it at the time, they allow you to connect small(er) duct >> less air flow >> less Hp required >> lower amps, so the SMART Boost responds by an 'overspeed' of the motor to boost suction >> up to nameplate FLA >> recover some additional air flow. ...If you use small duct.

And I don't really feel the need for variable speed either - hence my procrastination. Fear of SWMBO has nothing to do with it. Nothing. Really. Tho' the ramped start from a VFD is nice, and the 5Vdc IO allows dirt simple wireless remote start/stop. The same IO will get interlocked with a bin high level sensor.

[Eric Arnsdorff]

I’ve done more study on this and I have discovered basic physics still can’t be overturned by marketing. Although it’s always fun to believe in magic.

I’m sure others here have done the math but when I finally did the math (thanks for a helpful video from Blake Pizzey -https://youtu.be/QyWQOec9m6o) it turns out I can make a significant improvement by going to 6” ducts (currently everything is 4”.

Feedback from James M (helpful SMC messages after seeing my post here) helped me realize my current unit can delivery much better performance. Some of you need the additional flow from the bigger units - I may not. If I can get my flow up to the 800 cfm range (and maybe a little higher) then I should see a dramatic improvement.

I’m going with adding an Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL (getting rid of my clunky Thien setup) to my 2 hp Grizzly blower. I’m mounting it all vertically which both reduces space and a much more efficient ductwork.

I’ll just use the 4” for the tool connections and may increase a couple to 6” ports.

Going through the calcs was eye opening (usually I do the geeky thing first). Recommendations are to keep velocity above 4,000 fpm. I’m going for 6k and will verify I don’t fall below 5k with some pitot tube measurements (all those vane anemometer posts make me twitch in a bad way).

This also keeps my pressure drop in a range my Grizzly blower appears to be able to handle. Although I can’t find a fan curve (the magic of marketing hides the important stuff), it appears my unit should be capable of delivering 800-1000 cfm as long as I keep the pressure drop under 6-8” H20. The marketing tries to make you think it can beat that but I’ll find out the hard way.

If I do get it all mounted up and fail this then my fallback is to buy the lowest cost motor blower upgrade that can deliver the needed performance (not the cheapest - I’m going for cost effective). I suspect this would be the next size up impeller and motor blower.

The nice thing about this choice is it is actually the most space effective and cost effective.

I definitely understand this is more work and time than buying a unit that could just plug in (well I’d have to change my ductwork either way). So I’m not knocking buying such a unit because it can definitely be worth it. But the space savings is what is really driving my decision along with the bonus of being less costly.

Additionally, I see the new Oneida offerings for some high pressure units. I’ve seen some good videos showing good results. But the magic of those is in the higher pressure (it’s like a shop vac on steroids). They can’t deliver the flow needed for my setup. So no magic there. Fans/Blowers/Pumps all have basic physics constraining their operation. I need more flow and to do that for a reasonable size and cost, I need a high volume blower/impeller design and I’ll have to keep my pressure loss down while maintaining a good velocity in my ducts. No magic bullets.

But I still believe in magic when it’s fun to do so!

[Thomas Wilson]

It sure sounds like everyone is on-board with the Oneida. I’m thinking that will be my next big purchase. I just have to explain to my wife how I need it after buying the Makita dust extractor. No matter how many times I’ve done it - I never know how to start that conversation!

But I’m not understanding the need for the variable speed (at least for me).

I’m actually quite adept at the technology and then some in terms of the drive and how to make it do whatever I need it to. But I don’t understand a need for it in moving dust from my machines. I’m thinking it’s because I exhaust outside and don’t have the issue of optimizing for best separation and such. I can see that and possibly that’s why it is viewed this way. If I were trying to keep my filters clean as long as possibly then I’d do that. When I’m using a small hose with a lot of restriction such as for my sander the motor just does less work. When I have large ports open then I want it to do more work and it does.

Is the dust separation optimization the only reason for the speed control?
The variable speed is to pull more air through small ports. When motor current drops indicating lower flow, the controller speeds up the blower to keep current steady. Power is proportional to rpm cubed so it takes a high power motor to make it work. The design goal is to maintain at least 800 Cfm even on tools with 4 inch ports. That volume flow according to Bill Pentz is supposed have a large enough capture radius so that it pulls in the cloud of fine dust that the cutting tool generates. All the gaps around the cabinet of the cutting tool have enough inward air velocity to prevent escape of dust. It mostly works. It does not capture 100% of the dust. When the table saw blade emerges from the back of a cut, there is a spray of sawdust. On a jointer, when the trailing edge of the workpiece clears the infeed table leaving a gap, a spray of chips emerges. Situations like that do not have enough air velocity at the point where chips and sawdust are created to capture them all.

Come up to La Follette to see the Oneida 5hp with variable speed work. I have a hot wire anemometer and a manometer so you can measure air flow and pressure around the tools and a Dylos particle counter so you can see how clean the air is while cutting. I still have my old 2 hp Oneida that, with some effort, could be hooked up for comparison. It would be fun to have you and couple of nearby members who are interested to come for demonstration at my shop.

Oh and Eric, bring your wife. She and Janicewhokeepsmehumble can discuss how husbands who can fix things are useful.