Weight limit for cope and stick joinery?

[Mitch schiffer]

I have some entry doors to build and im wondering if my freeborn cope and stick joinery will provide enough strength. These will be the first entry doors I have built in this manner. I have build passage doors this way in the past with no issues. The doors will be 8 ft tall 42" wide made of stave core white oak with 2 wood panels and a
insulated glass unit. The cutters I have will cut a 5/8 deep profile. I could possibly see if I can get a different center cutter to cut a deeper profile or if I have to I could do loose tenons.

[Matt Tebo]

Mitch,

I don’t think the cope and stick joinery is going to be able to withstand the stress of that door over time. It’s going to be very heavy. You can add dominos or dowels to the joint and add a lot of strength. Just my opinion.

Matt

[Phillip Mitchell]

No way. You need either long integral tenons (strongest), multiple long and large loose tenons (domino XL sized/or make your own loose tenons), or multiple long and large diameter dowels per joint (the way most production door companies do it)

I would never consider building any doors bigger than a small-medium cabinet door with just cope and stick joinery, personally.

A door that large and heavy needs the strongest joinery, thick jambs that are shimmed and fastened very well, and (probably 4) high quality hinges or you are likely to have issues with it sagging, etc over time.

[Jared Sankovich]

I don't trust cope and stick alone for glass cabinet doors, I certainly wouldn't trust it for passage or exterior doors, short of fully glued plywood panels. For a door that large I'd be using 14mm domino's at a minimum.

[Jim Becker]

Cope and stick is nice for the profiles, but you'll want to augment that with sturdy tenons for something that massive. You need the door to stay square and not rack over time from its own weight. Cut the mortises on both sides prior to doing your cope and stick and then use loose tenons glued in to take up the space and reinforce the joinery.

[Mitch schiffer]

I got a price the upgrade to a 1 inch tenon for my cutter stack. Is that sufficient? This will have a profile so I can't use my adjustable grover and tenonning head without having applied mounding wich id really like the stay away from on the exterior. This is the profile I will be using.
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[Kevin Jenness]

I have some entry doors to build and im wondering if my freeborn cope and stick joinery will provide enough strength.

No way. Well fitted long tenons, spline or integral, will give you the glue surface and mechanical strength needed for longevity.

[Jared Sankovich]

I got a price the upgrade to a 1 inch tenon for my cutter stack. Is that sufficient? This will have a profile so I can't use my adjustable grover and tenonning head without having applied mounding wich id really like the stay away from on the exterior. This is the profile I will be using.
478168

A 2.5" integral tenon is usually considered adequate for doors. I don't think 1" is really that much more than a stub tenon. Even dowells would be better than nothing.

[Jim Becker]

I got a price the upgrade to a 1 inch tenon for my cutter stack. Is that sufficient?

My opinion is that it "might" work for a more standard door size, but I'd personally want a beefier tenon for big, heavy doors of that size. A 1 inch tenon certainly provides a lot more glue area, but I'm thinking that a much larger tennon is going to help resist a lot more racking force from the physical weight of the doors.

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve glued and clamped , then used dowels. I used 1/2 or 5/8ths dowels, driven through a non -sharp hole in thick scrap steel plate. Dowels
swell with a little water mixed into glue. Too tight dowels break stuff. Made lots of doors and never had a failure. Mortise and tenon is good
when done carefully, but most chain made mortises are too big . Seen lots of wracked doors with non tight joints .

[Greg Funk]

Our door manufacturer used Freeborn cope and stick for all the passage doors 1-3/4 Poplar w/mdf or Cherry and they've been good for 20 yrs. The entry door was 44 x 100 x 2-1/8 Oak and I believe they added tenons for that but don't recall for certain. The main door hasn't changed (other than seasonal movement) in 20 yrs. There is a lot of glue surface on a tight fitting cope and stick door and I suspect few people have gone through any type of engineering analysis and testing to determine what is required. Most manufacturers build cabinet doors with cope and stick only and I think if you scale up the door to a passage size the math likely works out the same.

[Mitch schiffer]

I would like to find a way to build these reasonably efficiently. I don't have a slot mortiser but I do have a hollow chisel mortiser. Alternatively I could potentially get a custom cutter from freeborn to create a even deeper profile but the question would be how much is enough to be sufficient. The first 3 doors will all be for my own shop so I can experiment a little more with those then I could with a paying job.

[Kevin Jenness]

Time will tell. Sometimes it tells too much. An exterior door exposed to weather fluctuations and severely different conditions on opposite faces is in a different situation from a passage door. A thoroughly glued 1" deep cope and stick joint may hold a large door together, but what happens in 20 or 50 years? Deeply rooted tenons or dowels will still have some mechanical integrity if (when) the glue fails. There's a reason that you don't see minimal joinery on old doors.

If you are in business and expect to be doing more of this sort of work a slot mortiser, a Domino XL or a large shaper to complement your mortiser will prove to be a worthwhile investment, as will a copy of David Sochar's Small Shop Production of Custom Wood Doors.

[Mel Fulks]

Exterior doors sometimes look like they are coming apart at bottom rail. It’s usually just “ compression ring set”. Rain soaks into the raw wood
and swells the stiles. That smushes the wood into the rail , and the wood is permanently compressed into too narrow .

Bottom of door must be painted. And a drip edge is a good thing ,too.

[Mitch schiffer]

If you are in business and expect to be doing more of this sort of work a slot mortiser, a Domino XL or a large shaper to complement your mortiser will prove to be a worthwhile investment, as will a copy of David Sochar's Small Shop Production of Custom Wood Doors.

I do have a large shaper (7.5hp, tilting spindle, and sliding table). I would like to find a way to do this on the shaper without several other processes for the joinery. Im ok with spending a good bit of money on cutters if I can come up with a reliable processes to make these. I have about 40 doors total to make for this particular building.

[Jim Becker]

I would like to find a way to build these reasonably efficiently. I don't have a slot mortiser but I do have a hollow chisel mortiser. Alternatively I could potentially get a custom cutter from freeborn to create a even deeper profile but the question would be how much is enough to be sufficient. The first 3 doors will all be for my own shop so I can experiment a little more with those then I could with a paying job.

The easiest way to do deep mortises is to do them before you mill with the Freeborn cope/stick set using whatever method you prefer for that kind of operation. That gives you flat edges to cut from. Yes, it's an extra step, but it's clean and will be completely hidden once you assemble your doors.

[Mitch schiffer]

The easiest way to do deep mortises is to do them before you mill with the Freeborn cope/stick set using whatever method you prefer for that kind of operation. That gives you flat edges to cut from. Yes, it's an extra step, but it's clean and will be completely hidden once you assemble your doors.

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.

[Kevin Jenness]

I do have a large shaper (7.5hp, tilting spindle, and sliding table). I would like to find a way to do this on the shaper without several other processes for the joinery. Im ok with spending a good bit of money on cutters if I can come up with a reliable processes to make these. I have about 40 doors total to make for this particular building.

I would suggest getting a pair of tenoning discs that will accept corrugated back cutters to cut the tenon cheeks and copes in one operation. You will probably want to have a matching set of sticking cutters made at the same time, or send a sticking sample to the grinding service to match the cope knives. https://cggschmidt.com/proddetail.php?prod=MH790 p. 32 in their online catalog. You will need a solid hollow chisel mortiser (or swing chisel mortiser- there's one on Woodweb right now) as well. And order the book.

I get by with a medium duty shaper and a stationary slot mortiser using cope and stick/stub tenon tooling with added spline tenons for occasional door work, but the above system is more efficient. Arguably better/stronger as well, but I have found my setup to work well and the slot mortiser is quite versatile.

For more info on door machinery and tooling Joe Calhoon has made any number of informative posts here and at Woodweb and offers joinery workshops at his shop in Colorado. Here is a link to his UTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ2uLjJUruopJHaNcpQwrCQ

[Jeff Roltgen]

Many others want to say this, and I don't mean to be nasty, please try not to take this too personally, but:

40 doors to build, but you've not done a single exterior yet?
Needing guidance regarding the proper joinery?

Tell them to call someone else while you sign up for some classes and learn properly, with someone fully knowledgeable in this highly specialized trade. Otherwise, I'm afraid you are about to waste a ton of their money and your time, which will eventually be your lost money as failures begin stacking up. Could be devastating to your business. Not to mention, you are hardly equipped to quote an accurate cost, not knowing what is actually involved.

Custom passage and entry doors are sexy, and I continually hear other trades people remarking after hearing what a custom door costs, that they too, could be making a mint producing something that is just a larger version of a cabinet door. Couldn't be any further from the truth. The complexities of an insulated wooden door would make their heads spin.

Mr. Sochar's book is an interesting read, and is full of pages of his dissertations, but you will not find the actual step by step guide that you are needing in that publication.

Trying to be gentle yet honest here; a book and a few questions answered in an online forum are not remotely enough to turn you into a passage door specialist overnight. Hands-on training should be sought, and is available. Perhaps you can buy some time to do so, then dive into that large obligation with 100% confidence. It's worth it.

Again, I am terribly sorry for this post, but it is honestly meant to help more than you may realize. Please, forgive me for preaching.

Seriously, good luck.

jeff

[Mitch schiffer]

Jeff i understand what you are saying. To clarify this is my building that I am working on it is not a paying job. 5 doors are entry doors and the rest are passage doors. I have built passage doors before and am confident in my ability to build those. I do want all the doors to match. I have built a couple entry doors with a adjustable groover/ rabbiting head and reinforced it with dowels. Im simply looking for a more efficient way to build them while keeping the profiles matching to the passage doors.

[Mitch schiffer]

I would suggest getting a pair of tenoning discs that will accept corrugated back cutters to cut the tenon cheeks and copes in one operation. You will probably want to have a matching set of sticking cutters made at the same time, or send a sticking sample to the grinding service to match the cope knives. https://cggschmidt.com/proddetail.php?prod=MH790 p. 32 in their online catalog.

Thanks I will look into this. I haven't seen one of these before and didn't see a picture on their website. I will chek with a local tooling supplier and see if they can get something similar.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks I will look into this. I haven't seen one of these before and didn't see a picture on their website. I will chek with a local tooling supplier and see if they can get something similar.

If you look at "standard coping discs" on p. 32 in the Schmidt catalog on their website you will see what I mean. https://cggschmidt.com/3d-flip-book/schmidt-catalog/

[Rod Sheridan]

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.

Unless I’m not understanding the question a cutter on a stub spindle will make the tenon and cope….Regards, Rod

[Jim Dwight]

40 doors is enough to justify a Domino XL from my point of view. It will be by far the fastest and easiest way to add some long floating tenons to each joint. Deepest mortise it can make is 70mm, almost 3 inches (140mm tenon). You can use premade tenons or make your own. If you make them, they can be as wide as you want and as thick as you want. For mortises thicker than 14mm you have to plunge multiple times, that is the same technique that you use to make wider mortises. I have made them as wide as 6 inches, it is very fast and easy. You can add the mortises after you cope and stick or before. Some people put smaller tenons in the middle of the cope and stick joint to beef up cabinet doors. You could use the same technique or make your added tenons the same thickness as the little integral tenons. Widest cutter is 14mm, that might be big enough but, if not, you can just overlap the cuts.

If you get one, I guarantee you will find it handy for other things. It is a nice accurate tool. I find the mm dimensions a little annoying but not that difficult to work with.

[Mitch schiffer]

If you look at "standard coping discs" on p. 32 in the Schmidt catalog on their website you will see what I mean. https://cggschmidt.com/3d-flip-book/schmidt-catalog/

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

[Mitch schiffer]

Unless I’m not understanding the question a cutter on a stub spindle will make the tenon and cope….Regards, Rod

I looked into a stub spindle once before and couldn't find one for my shaper. I have a powermatic ts29.

[Jared Sankovich]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

They remove all the material and cut the cope.

[Jim Becker]

How would you suggest doing the mortise on the rails for the floating tenon? I can't fit a piece on end into the hollow chisel mortiser. I can't really see a way to use a long integral tenon with profile on the shaper.
I'd setup to do these mortises with a router and make tenon stock with rounded edges to keep things efficient. A simple jig to align things indentially on every piece would be a handy way to do it. I'd not use a hollow chisel mortiser for this kind of work, personally.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

With enough horsepower and a relief cut on the inside of the knives they should be able to make a long coped tenon in one pass. I have done tenons up to 2" on a 5 hp shaper in thinner stock. Even if you had to hog off the material with another method or in two passes it would still be a good way to get a consistent thickness tenon with a well fitted cope. A stub spindle can do copes one face at a time but they are hard to find for most machines and the setup would be more fussy.

The Domino is also a very fast method of adding strength to a basic cope and stick joint.

Garniga is another source for door tooling.

You would do well to search the archives here and at Woodweb for door tenon making. There are a lot of options and you need to tailor your investment to the type and volume of the work you do.

[William Hodge]

Get a tenoner.
The tenons can be full length, through tenons. The cope cutters cope, and make the tenon cheeks. I make coped rails with 5" long tenons. Through mortises aren't hard, just make lines on the stiles.
Even an old Millbury can do it, just go slowly and take small passes.

[Richard Coers]

If you don't want to buy more machinery, use your plunge router (Elu or Dewalt for me) with the long guide bars and 2 fences on it for the floating tenons, before you do the cope and sticking. When I built big doors, I put in 2 floating tenons in each joint and then a long lag bolt in a counterbored hole. I built like that for a strip club here in Peoria and they lasted for 15 years until they built a new club. They took my old doors and put them inside the new club to remember the old club. The count on those doors opening and closing had to be astronomical.

[johnny means]

As long as your stiles are adequately sized, your joints are tight, and your adhesive is good, your cope and stick joints should be good for generations to come. Remember, the structural integrity of your door is the sum of all the joints and the rigidity of the panel. Ibet you could hang a small car off the door handle, if the hinges would hold.

[brent stanley]

Thanks I see it now. Are these intended to remove all the material for a tenon or do they just cut the cope after the bulk of the material has been cut away?

You can do it this way with a lighter and/or lower powered machine, but most tenon discs are designed to remove all the material (including the cope) but for full length tenons on a passageway door, you're talking about a pretty serious machine and the horsepower rating isn't the only factor. Running twin discs is (IMO) the "best" way to make full length tenons on the shaper, BUT is not for a newbie, is not for lighter machines, is not for simple light securing systems, and even if all of those are looked after, you still need a very well tuned and accurately running machine to get satisfactory results. I don't know that much about your machine, but to get 4.5" tenons, you'll be looking at roughly 12" diameter discs and my gut says that machine is too light for that. You're talking pretty serious doors and I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 3" tenons and would personally err on the side of caution and go as along as possible. Once you're set up to run, it isn't really any more work. You could do longer tenons, one side at a time which takes a lot less power but of course takes more care to get your shoulders to line up (though I never had a problem doing it before I got two discs), and though it takes two passes across the shaper to achieve a tenon, sliding it past the cutters doesn't really add up to a lot of time compared to all the other steps involved in creating the doors. I would echo taking Joe's course. You're talking about a great thing to do on a shaper, but it's also one of the most demanding things to do and at par with the most dangerous and Joe's course would get you started down the right path. I would suggest chip limiting tooling is an excellent idea too.

Also, there are many regional and site specific factors (rain, sun exposure, material used etc) that determine how you go about this, but don't underestimate the value of applied mouldings on the outside of doors if you think they may need to be replaced due to forces of nature. In one sense they're a little less sexy than milled in profiles, but in some scenarios the serviceability is valued.

[Jared Sankovich]

You can do it this way with a lighter and/or lower powered machine, but most tenon discs are designed to remove all the material (including the cope) but for full length tenons on a passageway door, you're talking about a pretty serious machine and the horsepower rating isn't the only factor. Running twin discs is (IMO) the "best" way to make full length tenons on the shaper, BUT is not for a newbie, is not for lighter machines, is not for simple light securing systems, and even if all of those are looked after, you still need a very well tuned and accurately running machine to get satisfactory results. I don't know that much about your machine, but to get 4.5" tenons, you'll be looking at roughly 12" diameter discs and my gut says that machine is too light for that. You're talking pretty serious doors and I wouldn't feel comfortable with anything less than 3" tenons and would personally err on the side of caution and go as along as possible. Once you're set up to run, it isn't really any more work. You could do longer tenons, one side at a time which takes a lot less power but of course takes more care to get your shoulders to line up (though I never had a problem doing it before I got two discs), and though it takes two passes across the shaper to achieve a tenon, sliding it past the cutters doesn't really add up to a lot of time compared to all the other steps involved in creating the doors. I would echo taking Joe's course. You're talking about a great thing to do on a shaper, but it's also one of the most demanding things to do and at par with the most dangerous and Joe's course would get you started down the right path. I would suggest chip limiting tooling is an excellent idea too.

Also, there are many regional and site specific factors (rain, sun exposure, material used etc) that determine how you go about this, but don't underestimate the value of applied mouldings on the outside of doors if you think they may need to be replaced due to forces of nature. In one sense they're a little less sexy than milled in profiles, but in some scenarios the serviceability is valued.


The ts29 is one of the 5xx series imports. Same machine as a cantek SS512TB. Bearings are double 6008s on top and a 6206 on the bottom. Cantek tooling size list seems backwards with 8" above or 13" under the table. I'm guessing it's the same 225mm outer ring for all (same as my 511, which I wouldn't run more than a 225mm head on)
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[Kevin Jenness]

Brent makes some good points. I would be comfortable with 2.5" or 3" tenons which can be made with 8" or 9" tenoning discs. Longer than that requires equally deep mortise tooling which may be hard to find. Taking that much material off both sides takes some power and you need the work held securely. I usually use a clamp across the work as well as a hold-down. A continuous fence between the cutters will add safety. If you have any doubts about your setup seek advice from an experienced shaper hand.

[brent stanley]

The ts29 is one of the 5xx series imports. Same machine as a cantek SS512TB. Bearings are double 6008s on top and a 6206 on the bottom. Cantek tooling size list seems backwards with 8" above or 13" under the table. I'm guessing it's the same 225mm outer ring for all (same as my 511, which I wouldn't run more than a 225mm head on)
478267


Thanks Jared, I was certain it was heavier than a Delta "HD" and more capable but a quick glance at the quill assembly, spindle bottom and 1000lb weight says it's no SCM T160 or Martin T27....and the "best" tooling for the "best" tenons for those doors (ie. twin discs big enough for 5" tenons) is IMHO too much for that machine and certainly too much for the factory clamping system to secure the stock as it goes past the cutters. I would say that two 200mm aluminum tenon discs that will give a 3" tenon could be ok (if you were ok with 3" tenons), provided the OP had some good guidance/instructions and seriously upgraded the securing system/clamp.

B

[Joe Calhoon]

Seems like if the OP already has the Freeborn set he would be better off to put money towards a Domino, slot mortiser or horizontal drill.
No doubt true tenon doors is a better construction but not by much. Reinforcing copes with the other methods mentioned is certainly acceptable and a much easier manufacturing method. To set up true mortise and tenon efficiently for production (AKA making a profit) will be expensive and still require extra steps compared to coping. In exterior door making the corner joint is important but many other issues you need to tackle. Gasketing, glazing install and finishing just to name a few.

My YouTube channel is pretty lame but I have a lot of door making on my Instagram
https://instagram.com/joecalhoon?igshid=NjY2NjE5MzQ=

[Warren Lake]

The discs will cut the tennon and the cope same time. Thats efficient, then you have to mortise the style. They dont have outside knickers so not sure how well that works. Schmidt said they are meant to use in one pass though some make more than one pass or bandsaw off first but they are meant to do it in one pass. Schmidt discs are 25 Degree angle and take corrugated. Past quoted me tennon size for 9" but ive forgotten and at the time he did not look it up to be sure.

Your shaper manual will tell you a maximum size head as well as the RPM. Big heads they want you at the bottom RPM like 2,900. The table rings also have a tale and will limit what you put on depending on what your sliding table set up is or how high. Maybe done to make it more idiot proof.

Some machines have spindle braces. The story changes with those in your benefit. You could probably McGiver a spindle brace from an old power feed base. Ive asked past if anyone has done that with no response

Used Single end tennon machines 5 heads are usually 500.00 - 2,000.00

Ive asked about people using them (the coping discs) and someone posted two people to check, they were on instagram and I havent joined the club so was not able to see things as it asked me to sign up.

[Mitch schiffer]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

[Jim Becker]

Were you clear with the Freeborn person about the size and heft of the doors?

[brent stanley]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

I just reread the description of your doors and they will be very heavy....I would not build them without long traditional or loose tenons.

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm thinking the route that will be best for me is to get 2 coping discs and still use the standard freeborn cutters. I called and talked to a guy at freeborn today and he said to me that the standard 5/8 tenon is sufficient for most applications and 1" is overkill. I was surprised to hear this especially with almost none of the replies on the thread agreeing with that. I haven't heard back from Charles gg Schmitt yet on getting some coping discs.

I'm not clear on your plan. If you mean to do the sticking and coping with the Freeborn set the tenoning discs will not be useful. In that case you can add spline tenons or dowels or rely on the stub tenons. If you want to make integral tenons using the coping discs you will want to get knives ground to match the Freeborn pattern, either with a CAD file from Freeborn or a sample of the sticking supplied to the knife grinder.

Freeborn make good cutters, but they don't make doors. I would take their advice with a grain of salt.

[Mitch schiffer]

Jim i did tell him the size. It seemed like the individual i spoke with was not a woodworker. He told me nobody has ever asked him to extend the tenon length on a entry/passage door set. Seems hard to believe.

[Mitch schiffer]

I'm not clear on your plan. If you mean to do the sticking and coping with the Freeborn set the tenoning discs will not be useful. In that case you can add spline tenons or dowels or rely on the stub tenons. If you want to make integral tenons using the coping discs you will want to get knives ground to match the Freeborn pattern, either with a CAD file from Freeborn or a sample of the sticking supplied to the knife grinder.

Freeborn make good cutters, but they don't make doors. I would take their advice with a grain of salt.

I'm planning on doing all the sticking as well as the coping only for the sub-stlyes with the Freeborn and the coping for the rails with the coping disks. I will cut the mortise in the styles with a hollow chisel mortiser.

[brent stanley]

I'm planning on doing all the sticking as well as the coping only for the sub-stlyes with the Freeborn and the coping for the rails with the coping disks. I will cut the mortise in the styles with a hollow chisel mortiser.

Ok, that's better. You'll have to make sure the knives for the coping discs match the freeborn cutters of course, and they'll need/want some pretty precise measurements to go by, or a sample.

[John TenEyck]

I'm not clear on your plan. If you mean to do the sticking and coping with the Freeborn set the tenoning discs will not be useful. In that case you can add spline tenons or dowels or rely on the stub tenons. If you want to make integral tenons using the coping discs you will want to get knives ground to match the Freeborn pattern, either with a CAD file from Freeborn or a sample of the sticking supplied to the knife grinder.

Freeborn make good cutters, but they don't make doors. I would take their advice with a grain of salt.


^^^ 100 times. No frame and panel exterior door manufacturer I've ever seen relies on cope and stick only. They all use some form of M&T or dowels. As do I. I cannot imagine a cope and stick joint withstanding someone trying to kick in the door. I'm sure the glue will hold, but I doubt the wood will.

Look at exterior frame and panel door manufacturers literature.

John

[johnny means]

Dug this up.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyMORhBJho

[Jim Becker]

Jim i did tell him the size. It seemed like the individual i spoke with was not a woodworker. He told me nobody has ever asked him to extend the tenon length on a entry/passage door set. Seems hard to believe.
My gut just tells me that given the size and heft of these doors, you'll be well served by reinforcing the joints with tenons over just the cope and stick, especially considering that humans are not generally "kind" to doors all the time.

[andrew whicker]

I was just going to chime in to say that I recently did some door surgery on a pre manufactured Shaker door.

It LOOKED like it only used a tenon joint but it really had two beefy pins per joint.

It was a heavy door: 3/4 mdf was the panel.

[Mitch schiffer]

Dug this up.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVyMORhBJho

I always used to watch that show when I was in high school. Interesting to see they are just relying on 2 pretty small dowels per joint.

[johnny means]

I always used to watch that show when I was in high school. Interesting to see they are just relying on 2 pretty small dowels per joint.

I suspect that the primary pupose of the dowels is to align the parts properly. Notice how little material is trimmed from the top and bottom of the door. That requires a good deal of precision and accuracy.

[andrew whicker]

Love that CNC saw..

[Joe Calhoon]

I bet the video Johnny posted is the Trustile plant in Denver. Very successful company but for sure a throw away product. They get strength by gluing in the MDF panel. We put a Soukup CNC tenoner in a large millwork shop that built similar interior MDF doors. They used a stave pine core faced with 1/8” MDF. Solid MDF panels. No dowels but a 1” stub tenon with the panels sized accurately with no gaps and glued in. 50 to 75 doors per shift. Surprisingly this same shop had a custom division that made a few high end hardwood entries all mortise and tenon construction. The MDF doors were all interior. I would imagine they would explode in a exterior application.