Scrapers

[Bernie Weishapl]

Just thought I would show a couple of scrapers I made over the last couple of days. One is a side bowl scraper and the other is a small square scraper. I made them both from files I had broke at one time or another and were laying in the drawer taking up space. I made the handles from oak and has a copper ferrel.

Here they are Andy.

[Bob Noles]

Bernie,

Great job and creative thinking. I like the handles too.

[Jim Becker]

Bernie, did you do any heat treatment (to make them less brittle) on the old files prior to grinding them, or just "have at it"?? 'Just curious...

Nice job!

[John Hart]

Very cool Bernie!!! I really like homemade tools. It just seems like the thing to do......to me anyway.;)

[Charles Hans]

I think that Jim has the right idea on heat treating. Files should be annealed to keep them from being brittle and breaking if you get a serious catch. I would do this myself, just to be on the safe side

[Andy Hoyt]

Nice Bernie. Nearly as elegant as the infamous Ugly Stick.

Whad'ja you do - just grind the ridges off?

[Dale Thompson]

Bernie, did you do any heat treatment (to make them less brittle) on the old files prior to grinding them, or just "have at it"?? 'Just curious...

Nice job!

Jim,
Heat treating can be REAL trickey - I think. :confused: Are there any guidelines on the subject of heat-treating materials when you don't really know their molecular composition or existing hardness? :confused: Annealing to prevent a "brittle" fracture is a great idea but how do you know when the "annealing" will turn your tool into "butter" when confronting some Ebony, Ironwood, Cocobola or even Oak? :D :)

Dale T. (Havin' at it!!) ;) :)

[Bill Stevener]

Hi Bernie,
You did a bang up job on your tools. Folks are talking about heat treating the files. FWIW, and I have said this a number of times, files are for filing, not for turning. It only takes one bad incident, and the file may shatter and the steel as a projectile, is worse than any wood coming at you.

It is really best to forget about messing with the heat treating, an old leaf spring will work much better, if you have one of those around.

Only my .02, but not really worth the risk.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[Dennis Peacock]

Bernie,

Word of Caution here.....Old files are VERY brittle and can shatter on you if you should experience a catch some time. I made one from a file before and it was way too brittle to use safely. You did a very NICE job on those tools, but find you some better steel to make them from. I just don't want you getting hurt from a "scraper" shattering on ya. :eek: :rolleyes:

[Bernie Weishapl]

I took these files to a guy who is a welder and has worked with metals for about 35 yrs. He heated them to a cherry red and dipped them in oil. He then heated them to a straw color which is not as hot he said and dipped them again. We took them to the grinder and they ground nicely. Do you think I am still playing with fire after doing the above process? I am asking because I don't know. I am a little leary about using them now. He said they would be fine but like I said I don't know now. If you still think I am I will do something else.

[Mike Ramsey]

Bernie, nice job on the scrapers...was wondering why your round
profiles are on the right side of the tools and flat on the left? It
seems that it should be opposite? or rounded on both sides as it
looks like you will have a lot of catches the way they are. But
then your files could be laying upside down...

[Charles Hans]

Bernie, it sounds like they were done properly, and they should be fine now as long as they were done the full length of the steel. good job and have fun.
Chuck

[Bernie Weishapl]

Mike it is laying the opposite way. If you are holding the tool in front of you the rounded edge is on the left side.

[Dale Thompson]

I took these files to a guy who is a welder and has worked with metals for about 35 yrs. He heated them to a cherry red and dipped them in oil. He then heated them to a straw color which is not as hot he said and dipped them again. We took them to the grinder and they ground nicely. Do you think I am still playing with fire after doing the above process? I am asking because I don't know. I am a little leary about using them now. He said they would be fine but like I said I don't know now. If you still think I am I will do something else.

Bernie,
Metallurgy is a science unto itself. Welding is only a small subfield in that science. Nothing against your welder friend but unless there is a "generic" metal known as "file steel" (if there is, I'VE never heard of it)or something like that, I would NOT mess around. The steps required for "heat treating" and "annealing" are quite specific depending on such things as Carbon content and the presence of other materials such as Phosphorus, Titanium, Boron, etc.. Relatively small changes in material content can result in SIGNIFICANT changes in the temperature requirements for heat treating. "Quenching" is another factor. We can talk about air, water or oil quenching. The choice of "quenching" procedures are more than just temperature related. There is a chemistry factor involved also.

It gets as simple as this: We frequently discuss HSS on these forums. Let's recall that one manufacturer's definition of HSS is considerably different than that of some other manufacturer. If there is any doubt about that, just check out a $3.00 HSS chisel from XYZ Corp. versus a $65.00 HSS chisel from Sorby, Crown or Taylor, to name just a few.

Lastly, we all know that Stainless Steel is non-magnetic! HMMM? How about the 302 Series? It is stainless steel and it IS magnetic!

Bernie, just be CAREFUL!! I am NOT a Metallurgist but I DO know that a "brittle" fracture usually means shattering or exploding like a window, a piece of "bone" china or a GRINDING WHEEL. The result is generally a bit more traumatic than the rim of a near-finished bowl bouncing off of your face shield. ;) :)

Dale T.

[Jim Becker]

Bernie, your description of the annealing that was done fits exactly with the articles that have been published in turning mags on the subject. I think you are fine.

[Rob Bourgeois]

Straw color is about 450 degrees and is what you shoot far with "hard" items like hammer faces according to the table in the book "Wooden Hand planes and how to make them"( just read that page:)--Christmas present ).

It says the wood working tools are usually heated to about 510 --"brown with purple spots".

I would try it out and be careful but like Jim says thats what other turning sites and articles have said. If you are a bit nervous check with one of the Neanderthals that play with hot metal and anvils.:rolleyes:

[Bill Stevener]

So far with this discussion, I will side with Dale. There have been posts noting, you should be fine, I think your ok, sounds like they were done properly.
No one has yet said, that is exactly the way to treat the makeup of the steel in a file and you will defenitally be safe using it.

Hear is the best test, even one the welder can relate to. Take another old file and subject it to the same heat treating process. Then perform all of the grinding to achieve the same desired shape, which now has induced a tremendous amount of embrittlement in to the steel, it might not be good for anything. Place the file in a vice, with a long pipe as a lever over the file, while wearing a face shield, maybe two, see if the new tool will bend to a 90 degree angle.

Then and only then you can say yes, this process is safe with the material in a file and I WILL be ok.

Em folks in Mo. got it right.

Bill.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>:)

[John Hart]

Here's an experiment from a completely metallurgically challenged individual.
Put a piece of HSS in a vise with 1 or 2 inches sticking up and whack it with a hammer. Do the same with the file steel after heat treating. My guts tell me that the file steel will still shatter....But then, that's what experiments are for I reckon.:o :D

[Bob Noles]

Put a piece of HSS in a vise with 1 or 2 inches sticking up and whack it with a hammer.

John,

Which one is best for this, bowl gouge or skew chisel? :D :eek: :p

[Chris Barton]

Great looking tools and you can't beat the price. I wish I wern't so lazy...

[Gil Jones]

<!--StartFragment -->This is a good web site for information concerning most types of steel, and their heat treatments. I do not recall that drawing down a file is mentioned, but you will find much usable data at this site.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/index.html