Bench vs Butt Chisels?

[Bryan Hall]

I'm relatively new to chisel work but am getting more and more personal time in the shop and appreciate not using power tools for everything. I've started to get my hands on a few chisels and found that I greatly prefer the shorter length of a butt chisel, but want to ask if I should be getting general bench chisels over the others? As I develop skill and use them more, am I going to discover that the full lenth is beneficial? Or is this just a personal preference?

Thanks for helping out with a simple question.

[Luke Dupont]

I too thought that I preferred butt chisels at first. They feel easier to handle (especially if you have cheaply made chisels to compare them to, which are often really handle heavy and unbalanced, in stark contrast to good chisels) at first, and are compact and fit nicely in a toolbox or tool roll.

And, I still like butt chisels for their compactness.

But, over the years I've really come to appreciate full sized bench and firmer chisels. That length is not only necessary for chopping deep holes (when you need one, you need one), but more importantly, it helps you to be much more precise and accurate.

The longer your chisel, the more you will be able to feel when the chisel is not perfectly straight up and down. Any minor error in angle is multiplied over a greater distance, and you can feel it in the balance of the tool. The same goes for paring -- the longer the tool, the more noticeable any slight changes in angle are.

The chisel, along with the plane, are the two tools in your toolbox capable of the greatest precision. No saw or hand drill can come close. So it's a very good thing to have long and well balanced chisels if you want to do good work. It's not necessary, of course -- you can do good work with Butt chisels, and I still use mine on occasion. But if I have a choice, I usually reach for the longer and more ergonomic chisel.

You'll find longer chisels to be much more ergonomic if you get some with slender, light-weight wooden handles, not the large, bulky wooden handles on most low end chisels, and especially not the ultra heavy plastic and metal handles.

When you are chopping straight down, hold the chisel like a pencil down near the cutting edge. When you are paring, hold the blade of the chisel as you would hold a fan (or pointing a knife with a thumb grip, or remote controller -- the thumb on the flat of the chisel and the index finger at a 90 degree angle underneath), and only as deep as the maximum depth of the cut, so your index finger acts as a "stop", both to keep you from going too far and ramming into the wall of a tenon or something, and also as a safety habit to stop the chisel should you slip and lose control. When you do this, you can easily feel minute changes in the angle of the tool over the greatest length.

The same applies with saws, especially Japanese saws. Those handles are long for a reason! Hold them gently towards the end, and you have much, much more control over the angle and precision of the cut.

[James Pallas]

At some point you will find both useful. The same for long paring chisels. I use bench chisels most of the time and other types when it makes the task easier. The same thing applies with other tools, the work indicates the tool.
Jim

[Charles Guest]

You'll need a longer chisel from time to time, but otherwise if you like butt chisels use them. They're not "starter" chisels or "rookie" chisels. No shame in having them as your go-to.

[Derek Cohen]

Some may argue that Japanese oire nomi are short like butt chisels. Some Japanese videos show artisans with chisels that have been sharpened down to nubs, and they continue to work.

Hand tools are very personal. What may be the best tool in the world for one, is not necessarily so for another. Use what feels right. It is the outcome that speaks for you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tom M King]

The reason there is such a thing, and the reason they are called "Butt chisels" is for cutting the mortises for hinge butts on house door jambs in place. A bench chisel is too long to clean out the bottom of the upper hinge butt mortise, and the top of the lower butt mortise if you need to make a cut in line with the length of the jamb.

I keep one Stanley no. 60 1-1/2" just for that purpose, and it's the only short chisel I want, or need.

copied and pasted: Butt-hinge definition
(carpentry) A kind of hinge used in hanging doors, lid, covers, etc.; so named because fastened on the edge of the door, which butts against the frame, stop molding, and casing, instead of on its face, like the strap hinge; also called butt.

House door hinges are called hinge butts, or butt hinges.

[Edward Weber]

As everyone has said in one way or another, use what works for you.
All I can add is that most Butt chisels are sharpened at a 30 degree bevel while bench chisels are more likely to be at 25 degrees. At least that my experience.
This can influence which one you choose beyond it's physical length.

[Jim Koepke]

Having found many types of chisels useful is one reason there are many types of chisels in my shop.

My butt chisels tend to be those found in the wild that have lost length over time. They are preferred for close work such as cutting hinge mortises.

Longer bevel edged chisels are used for paring.

Flat sided chisels are often used for clearing waste from dados and occasionally used for mortising if the mortise is a different size than one of my mortise chisels.

As others have said, use what works for you. It doesn't matter what works for anyone else.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

As everyone has said in one way or another, use what works for you.
All I can add is that most Butt chisels are sharpened at a 30 degree bevel while bench chisels are more likely to be at 25 degrees. At least that my experience.
This can influence which one you choose beyond it's physical length.

All my bench chisels, Western and Japanese, are sharpened at 30-32 degrees. Only my paring chisels are sharpened at 25 degrees. The latter are never hit with a hammer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

Some may argue that Japanese oire nomi are short like butt chisels. Some Japanese videos show artisans with chisels that have been sharpened down to nubs, and they continue to work.

Hand tools are very personal. What may be the best tool in the world for one, is not necessarily so for another. Use what feels right. It is the outcome that speaks for you.

Regards from Perth

Derek


I've actually contemplated buying some of those oire-nomi that have been sharpened down to nubs! (Second hand, for cheap, of course)

Precisely because I do sometimes want a really short and stubby chisel...

The point of my post wasn't to say that butt chisels or bad or don't work, but rather to offer a contrasting opinion for the OP to consider what he really wants. I still do reach for my longer chisels when I want to be really sure that I'm chopping very accurately at 90 degrees, or when paring. They're also nice for paring downards using your shoulder.

But I do like and use some pretty short oire-nomi too, and they work just fine. They were all I used until more recently when I bought some longer Japanese and Western chisels.

[Roderick Gentry]

What I hear a lot is I have X chisels but I use them while holding the blade, or the ferule. So one wonders what the deal is when in effect they prefer to use chisels that are a few inches long.

I probably have 7 different lengths in multiple sets, stuff accumulates over the decades. I use the standard length bench chisels the most, assuming stuff in the cabinetmaking range And for the most part I would use about 4 sizes of the bench chisels.

In lengths I have mini, bench, mortising, long bench, timber framing, Japanese push, timber framing struck chisels, timber framing slicks, and something with a shovel handle on it. Stuff can get out of hand.

[Roderick Gentry]

The reason there is such a thing, and the reason they are called "Butt chisels" is for cutting the mortises for hinge butts on house door jambs in place. A bench chisel is too long to clean out the bottom of the upper hinge butt mortise, and the top of the lower butt mortise if you need to make a cut in line with the length of the jamb.

I keep one Stanley no. 60 1-1/2" just for that purpose, and it's the only short chisel I want, or need.

copied and pasted: Butt-hinge definition
(carpentry) A kind of hinge used in hanging doors, lid, covers, etc.; so named because fastened on the edge of the door, which butts against the frame, stop molding, and casing, instead of on its face, like the strap hinge; also called butt.

House door hinges are called hinge butts, or butt hinges.


Interesting, I had not heard that before, thanks for posting that.

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Though I can't seem myself stuck on a desert island if the only way to get off was to make that cut with a bench chisel. What does he do if the grain confounds that angle of approach. And it does not explain the sets of butt chisels, at least as far as I can see.

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The mini chisels I have are in a set of 10, but I own 2 classic plastic handled butt chisels largely because they carry nicely in my framing bag. I also use them with their file sharpenable steel to do dovetail demos in woods up to cherry where their lack of hardness is not a terrible limitation.

[Roderick Gentry]

I still do reach for my longer chisels when I want to be really sure that I'm chopping very accurately at 90 degrees, or when paring. They're also nice for paring downards using your shoulder.

That is a beginner concern, which may be just what the doctor ordered, But the vertical thing is not really an issue. As Franz Klausz used to say "if you are very beginner", you may want to draw a line for your saw to cut to for a square cut. Same here it isn't really tough to do. Not to mention that undercutting works for a lot of pros, and it could be half a degree, just not too much in the intruding direction. Plus a lot of the best chisels do not cut straight down. And a lot of the best users work off the bevel not the back for most of their cuts. And the handles on many chisels, including some I have seem that cost skiilsaw prices per chisel, are not on straight. And the handle when it is straight, is not like looking down a gun barrel, there are bulges and asymmetries. So I probably would not worry too much about.

[Luke Dupont]

That is a beginner concern, which may be just what the doctor ordered, But the vertical thing is not really an issue. As Franz Klausz used to say "if you are very beginner", you may want to draw a line for your saw to cut to for a square cut. Same here it isn't really tough to do. Not to mention that undercutting works for a lot of pros, and it could be half a degree, just not too much in the intruding direction. Plus a lot of the best chisels do not cut straight down. And a lot of the best users work off the bevel not the back for most of their cuts. And the handles on many chisels, including some I have seem that cost skiilsaw prices per chisel, are not on straight. And the handle when it is straight, is not like looking down a gun barrel, there are bulges and asymmetries. So I probably would not worry too much about.

All true!

The only bit I don't get is "And a lot of the best users work off the bevel not the back for most of their cuts." I'm curious to know what you mean, as I generally use bevel down for inside curves / convex work and long dados, etc., and flat down for flat work / convex ... Do you have any specific examples of what you mean?

[Rafael Herrera]

As you push the chisel into the wood, if the bevel is up, the chisel may dig in. With the bevel down, you can control the cut so that does not occur. As the chisel digs into the wood, the bevel pushes the chisel opposite it, like when you cut mortises. I don't know about the best users, but you just need to know how the chisel will behave and position it to get the cut you want.

[Mike Henderson]

I bought a set of butt chisels but found that I just never used them. About the only time I could see using them is when a regular bench chisel is too long.

Mike

[Bryan Hall]

Thanks for the tips/thoughts everyone. I'll probably slowly grow a collection with both, and as I start to gravitate towards one or the other then that's where I'll focus.

[Edward Weber]

I personally wouldn't consider it a beginner type of thing.
Choosing a longer chisel is a way of having a longer reference plane to use for alignment. This is simply a method of work that many have adopted.

[Thomas Wilson]

Every chisel becomes a butt chisel if you sharpen it enough.

Tom King is right. By design, butt chisels are specifically for mortising butt hinges. I have one plastic handle Stanley 1 1/2” butt chisel. It was bought as a beater. It is my go-to chisel if there is any chance of hitting metal.

I love bevel edge socket chisels and have sets from several brands. I suppose in my mind I want to test the properties and determine the best one like wood by wright. I use chisels for trimming and fitting. Much of the time the back of the chisel is flat on the surface paring a fine chip. Longer chisels are necessary for this kind of use since the chisel socket must be off the edge of the workpiece. If my chisel is not long enough, I switch to a chisel plane. The hand tools really work well and it is fun.

[James Pallas]

I’m sure that early craftsmen at times needed shorter chisels. There were laminated chisels that had limited length of hardened material so not like today they couldn’t sharpen them way shorter. I know the name butt chisel comes from setting hinge butts. That’s not the only reason for shorter chisels. Lock mortises and sash work come to mind.
Jim

[Warren Mickley]

There were about 50 chisels in the Seaton Chest (1796), all but maybe four apparently purchased at the same time. None are butt chisels. Seaton was a cabinetmaker. The term butt chisel seems to have originated in the late 19th century, well past the handtool era. If someone can find a reference before 1880, I would be interested in seeing it.

When a chisel becomes short after years of use and thousands of sharpenings, I put a longer handle on to bring it back to an optimum length.

[Roderick Gentry]

All true!

The only bit I don't get is "And a lot of the best users work off the bevel not the back for most of their cuts." I'm curious to know what you mean, as I generally use bevel down for inside curves / convex work and long dados, etc., and flat down for flat work / convex ... Do you have any specific examples of what you mean?


I don't fully get it myself, but I noticed while working at a seminar, with some Japan trained carpenters, both Western and Japanese, that things I did with the back, they did with the bevel. I really didn't get to watch them long enough to see why they did it. And question were pointless. There could be a lot of reasons: Allows better view. So while some people are saying the longer chisel gets them a better reference or feel, the view is not always the best; Better body position relative to body position on the work; Dynamics in the work, so which way the cut biases; Striking angle, one thing you do see is huge power when hitting that chisel, like they are building a railway. If you are controlling, and crowding the work you can't really hit for the bleachers. This was rectilinear work nto following a curve. I just started to switch it around, I would try one way, then the other, and just see what I liked. It is not a prying thing

[Roderick Gentry]

I personally wouldn't consider it a beginner type of thing.
Choosing a longer chisel is a way of having a longer reference plane to use for alignment. This is simply a method of work that many have adopted.


I don't mean to suggest that one way of working is right or wrong. I throw in beginner mind at times not to insult, I am still a beginner after 40 or 50 years. Not just something one says to be modest. I don't bother with certain aspects of woodwork, and could be better at what I do, and have lots of things I am bad at.

Beginner mind is a lot of things, but probably the easiest to spot is anything along the lines of "it is easier to..." So one has a "longer reference". If I can cut to the line with either method, why would I care. Catalogs will advertise this as an advantage, longer chisels for a longer reference.

I just tried this. I went out to the shop and took a clean but nasty piece of 1" spruce construction lumber. I put it in the vise and marked it across the top and down about 2 inches. I took a saw, and aligned myself to the cut line. I closed my eyes and moved my hand up and down and back to the line. I checked to see if I was on the line. And made an adjustment. I started sawing on the line, and once I got the saw going smoothly (before the teeth were fully buried) I closed my eyes and sawed the rest of the line. First time the saw was actually binding and the kerf was off the line about 1/64th. Second time better but still off. Third time I actually got the saw moving smoothly almost full length of the blade and it was perfect. I have never tried this. Try it and see how it goes. What I know from past experience is I can saw perfectly to a line with my eyes open. Apparently it can be done with eyes closed. I could not even get my feet in proper positions because the panels for a speed boat are leaning on the front of the bench.

What I am getting at is the idea that there is a technical solution that will make something easier enough that I can do it, is what I call beginner mind. The idea that I would need that crutch to do it, is also beginner mind. Far better to push a little further and own the skill.

I hope beginner mind isn't insulting. Once you look for it you will see it everywhere. I am as victim to it as anyone. And sometimes I just want to buy the longer chisels, and I have.

[James Pallas]

What is a butt chisel anyway? Shorter seems to be the answer. The Stanley 700 series were different lengths, the 750 being the shorter. The 750, according to my understanding, was marketed as a butt chisel as boxes were marked that way. I don’t think the 750s are considered as butt chisels today.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I don't fully get it myself, but I noticed while working at a seminar, with some Japan trained carpenters, both Western and Japanese, that things I did with the back, they did with the bevel. I really didn't get to watch them long enough to see why they did it. And question were pointless. There could be a lot of reasons: Allows better view. So while some people are saying the longer chisel gets them a better reference or feel, the view is not always the best; Better body position relative to body position on the work; Dynamics in the work, so which way the cut biases; Striking angle, one thing you do see is huge power when hitting that chisel, like they are building a railway. If you are controlling, and crowding the work you can't really hit for the bleachers. This was rectilinear work nto following a curve. I just started to switch it around, I would try one way, then the other, and just see what I liked. It is not a prying thing


Interesting. It would be hard to say why they were doing what they were doing without actually seeing it and/or asking them.
I've watched Japanese woodworkers a good bit, but I'm definitely not an expert (as my recent post regarding Japanese planes should make very evident). But as far as I have seen, I haven't seen them using chisels in any particularly weird manner.

But then, it depends on the craftsman to. Some people have particular, and quite unconventional methods that work well for them. One example of this is a particular professional Japanese knife sharpener that I know of, who actually sharpens primarily using the corner of the whetstone, rather than the entire flat surface! That's definitely not standard practice in Japan, but I guess it's not "wrong" either... Unless you ask any other professional sharpener, who will probably all insist that their way is correct. lol

[Don Dorn]

For me, it's butt for dovetails and Marples (and two wide Narex) for everything else

[Edward Weber]

I don't mean to suggest that one way of working is right or wrong. I throw in beginner mind at times not to insult, I am still a beginner after 40 or 50 years. Not just something one says to be modest. I don't bother with certain aspects of woodwork, and could be better at what I do, and have lots of things I am bad at.

Beginner mind is a lot of things, but probably the easiest to spot is anything along the lines of "it is easier to..." So one has a "longer reference". If I can cut to the line with either method, why would I care. Catalogs will advertise this as an advantage, longer chisels for a longer reference.

I just tried this. I went out to the shop and took a clean but nasty piece of 1" spruce construction lumber. I put it in the vise and marked it across the top and down about 2 inches. I took a saw, and aligned myself to the cut line. I closed my eyes and moved my hand up and down and back to the line. I checked to see if I was on the line. And made an adjustment. I started sawing on the line, and once I got the saw going smoothly (before the teeth were fully buried) I closed my eyes and sawed the rest of the line. First time the saw was actually binding and the kerf was off the line about 1/64th. Second time better but still off. Third time I actually got the saw moving smoothly almost full length of the blade and it was perfect. I have never tried this. Try it and see how it goes. What I know from past experience is I can saw perfectly to a line with my eyes open. Apparently it can be done with eyes closed. I could not even get my feet in proper positions because the panels for a speed boat are leaning on the front of the bench.

What I am getting at is the idea that there is a technical solution that will make something easier enough that I can do it, is what I call beginner mind. The idea that I would need that crutch to do it, is also beginner mind. Far better to push a little further and own the skill.

I hope beginner mind isn't insulting. Once you look for it you will see it everywhere. I am as victim to it as anyone. And sometimes I just want to buy the longer chisels, and I have.

Using a longer chisel or fence or table isn't just a preference or a crutch, it's geometry.
If I want to level a 20' wall, I don't use a 6" level. If I'm trying to square a door frame, I don't use a 3" pocket square. The longer the reference or sight line, the greater the accuracy that can be achieved. You seem to say this is just a beginner mind thing that can be overcome with more practice, to a degree yes but there's no getting around that the longer the reference surface or sight line, the more accurate one can be.

I suppose I find it a strange phrase, I find it more confusing than insulting.

[Tom M King]

I don't even like pig sticker mortise chisels. I like them long.

[Charles Guest]

The problem with forums is that it's hard to tease out if we're hearing from people who spend an entire weekend laying out and chopping four mortises, regardless of chisel length, or somebody who could knock out a typical, and creditable, furniture sized mortise (legs, frames, etc.) in three to five minutes with a sharpened screwdriver if they had to.

Whatever one is able to use accurately, and relatively quickly, is what that particular person should use in the long run.

If you're flummoxed and ineffective with short or long, it's you, not the tool.

You can study rotogravure images all you want. It won't make you a woodworker. You may end of with the toolkit of one, all the trappings, but that's about .05% of the whole thing.

[mike stenson]

There's no denying, at all, that a longer reference makes it easier to spot small variations though. That seems a ridiculous 'hill to die on' to me.

[Charles Guest]

If you have to site every single blow of the chisel, regardless of how long you've been at it, you might as well get a mortising machine. That, or be cross-eyed by the end of the day. My head starts pounding just thinking about it. My favourite mortise chisel is a Marples 1/4" that's probably about half its original length, maybe less. 5/16" isn't far behind. Easier to hone at that length, too.

I'd love to have all the wood that was likely thrown in the stove by people who didn't know how to quickly and effectively fix a mortise that was chopped slightly off plumb. I'd be rich. You know who you are. Just buy more wood.

[mike stenson]

Ok, so I need to choose to use the most difficult tool possible to be cool. Got it ;)

Did I just hit the road or mountain bike forum tab by mistake?

[Charles Guest]

You pick whatever works for you Mike.

[Edward Weber]

I'm not sure where the "site every single blow of the chisel" came from but when you do need to sight down for, lets say the final paring, a longer chisel is typically easier to keep aligned.

I'm in the use what you want camp, I don't advocate anyone use anything other than what works for them. It may seem strange to me and I may have questions but at the end of the day, it's your own work.

[Charles Guest]

I'm not sure where the "site every single blow of the chisel" came from but when you do need to sight down for, lets say the final paring, a longer chisel is typically easier to keep aligned.

I'm in the use what you want camp, I don't advocate anyone use anything other than what works for them. It may seem strange to me and I may have questions but at the end of the day, it's your own work.

That's great. Unless I'm paring far from the edge (a relative rarity for me) I love a shorter chisel when making final paring cuts. That's good, because almost all of my chisels are now very short. And they're third and fourth generation.

Use what works for you.

[mike stenson]

Paring is different than chopping mortises. I just did breadboards this weekend, using my long 1/4" (~14") chisel, instead of my one or intermediate length (~10"), or the short one (~ 5"). All are are vintage sash mortise chisels. Over all, a pretty quick process. I didn't time it, but my coffee wasn't cold. Sometimes it's just not worth struggling with things. I mean, I could flatten or joint a board with a #3 as well.. but I don't.

[Charles Guest]

Paring is different than chopping mortises. I just did breadboards this weekend, using my long 1/4" (~14") chisel, instead of my one or intermediate length (~10"), or the short one (~ 5"). All are are vintage sash mortise chisels. Over all, a pretty quick process. I didn't time it, but my coffee wasn't cold. Sometimes it's just not worth struggling with things. I mean, I could flatten or joint a board with a #3 as well.. but I don't.

Yep.

Use what works for you.