Stanley 39 dado planes – thoughts

[Tyler Bancroft]

I have a lot of dadoes to cut, and I'm thinking about buying a Stanley No. 39. I've never used one, but pickings are pretty slim for dado planes – does anyone have opinions on them?

[Derek Cohen]

Tyler, I have not used a #39, but have used several planes for dados and sliding dovetails. My overall preference is a Azebiki saw, knife, chisel and router plane as this offers more control over the size and shape (tapered or not, and stopped).

The best dedicated dado plane is made by HNT Gordon. The combination planes do a very good job: Veritas, Stanley #45 and #46. I wrote a comparison of them here:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCombinationPlane-dados.html

In regard to dado planes, the #39 and woodies, it all comes down to a straight body and the way you set up the blade and nickers.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Tyler, glad to see you interested in hand cut dadoes. I love dado planes and bought an HNT Gordon 3/4inch plane a couple years ago. I had tried a Stanley 46 but never quite got it tuned up to my exacting standards. I was able to use a my dado plane just using the nicker for the crosscut. It was a sweet experience. ( Relying on just the nicker to score the crosscut line is a bit risky, as guru Charles Guest pointed out ). I do not have any experience with the Stanley 39, but am interested in them also. I just have never seen any Neanerthal post pics of quality furniture using that tool - a lot of pine cuts, with occasional tear out. Warren Mickley is also an authority on the dado plane. Here is a link to my work (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?283374-dado-plane&highlight=)

[steven c newman]

The No. 39 came in a variety of widths...to match the width of the dado you want to mill.

I have the #39 3/8" version. you set a batten across the board, for this plane to follow along...It has 2 spurs, and a depth stop....set the batten, set the depth stop, and proceed to cut the dado, simple as that...as long as the cutter is sharp, should not ever be a problem.

It will not do stopped dados, though.

I keep looking for a 3/4" wide version...maybe someday one will show up...until then, I can always set up the Stanley 45, type 4.....

[Warren Mickley]

I use a Stanley 45 plane for most dadoes. This plane can be adjusted to make dadoes up to 1/16 wider than the cutter width, so you have some freedom to make the dado just the width you want. Compared to a dedicated dado plane it has more set up time.

Peter Nicholson, writing in 1812, said that dado planes were typically 3/8 inch wide. I think what they did for wider dadoes was to make two overlapping cuts or two dadoes with a small strip between which could be removed to make a 7/8 dado for example. I have used this technique for wide work. Dadoes in period work are rather shallow.

I looked at the HTN Gordon plane. It has a 60 degree bed, which is nuts for crossgrain work.

[Derek Cohen]

I looked at the HTN Gordon plane. It has a 60 degree bed, which is nuts for crossgrain work.

The HNT Gordon shoulder planes are also 60 degrees. All commonsense says that these planes will struggle to work. Yet they perform amazingly well.

I have the 1/4" HNT Gordon dado plane ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_m2de9276.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_m7467b084.jpg

The bed is 60 degrees and the blade is skewed at 20 degrees. The blade is 3/16” thick HCS.




http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_m373cca72.jpg


Close up of the nicker … http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_m503e838b.jpg


Work it against a fence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_1d0bb942.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/HNTGordonDadoPlane_html_m6ffe1acf.jpg

The wood is Tasmanian Hardwood, which resembles White Oak somewhat.

High angle bed and all ... it just does a magnificent job.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

I agree with Derek about the magnificant job the HNT Gordon dado plane does. Right now, it is the king of the hill. Check out Terry Gordon running wild with his dado planes in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxOgPAEtUuk). Warren I value your wisdom concerning bedding angles. I would be interesting to have a comparison of different bedding angles on plane performance.

[Tyler Bancroft]

Thanks all.
Derek: I have read (and drooled over) that review before now. Alas, factoring in transport, customs charges, and exchange rates, the HNT Gordon plane is (at minimum) triple what a good condition 39 costs. In a perfect world, that wouldn't matter, but...
Mark: Your pictures aren't helping my efforts to not buy one! Given the (relatively) low price of a vintage 39, I'm still leaning toward giving one a shot. I am in the process of building a set of bookcases to store ~4000 books, and a good part of those will be in pine, so I'm hoping it could get the job done. I don't mind doing some cleanup by hand when necessary, but when I have that many long dadoes to cut, I'm definitely open to timesavers relative to saw and chisel.

[Jason Buresh]

I know this is the hand tools sections, I I normally advocate for hand tools, but....

If you truly have to cut that many dados that you are considering buying a dedicated plane, then may I suggest using a router or a table saw with a dado stack.

I have quite a few specialty planes, and I love them, but they do take time and practice to set up and use. Don't be under the illusion that you can just buy a vintage 39 and start cutting perfect dados.

IF this were me, I would probably take the 30min to an hour and build another crosscut sled for my table saw to use with a dado stack. Or build a jig for a router and straight but.

If you want to go full neanderthal, I get it. I always try to grab hand tools first too.

But in this case, it sounds like power tools may be the more efficient route

[Warren Mickley]

For shelving for books it is really helpful to avoid 3/4 material. A shelf that is 7/8 or 1" will sag noticeably less than one that is 3/4. Even if you end up with a 3/4 dado, I would make a small rabbet on the end of a 7/8 board to fit in the dado.

[Scott Clausen]

I know this is the hand tools sections, I I normally advocate for hand tools, but....

If you truly have to cut that many dados that you are considering buying a dedicated plane, then may I suggest using a router or a table saw with a dado stack.

I have quite a few specialty planes, and I love them, but they do take time and practice to set up and use. Don't be under the illusion that you can just buy a vintage 39 and start cutting perfect dados.

IF this were me, I would probably take the 30min to an hour and build another crosscut sled for my table saw to use with a dado stack. Or build a jig for a router and straight but.

If you want to go full neanderthal, I get it. I always try to grab hand tools first too.

But in this case, it sounds like power tools may be the more efficient route

I agree, I was watching a Paul Sellers chair making video this morning. He said hand ripping all the slats and other chair parts would take forever so he broke out the band saw.

[Jason Buresh]

Completely agree. Also, be mindful of how wide each shelf is. The wider you stretch the shelf, the more likely it is to sag. I think I remember reading or hearing somewhere that 30" is starting to push it. Of course, you can reinforce the shelf if you want to go wider, but for using just one board in dados I would be mindful of the width.

[Scott Clausen]

It also can be dependent on what the shelf will hold, Large books end to end can be a lot different than trinkets & bowls.

[Derek Cohen]

I have made dados every possible way. I would rather set them out and mark their positions by hand, and then use hand tools to form them. I am not racing the clock. It is also not a journey thing, although this is a part of it. I just feel more in control and sure of the outcome working by hand than with power tools (and I am as experienced with power as hand), where things can go wrong very quickly.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Stopped dados can be done, likely with almost any dado plane.

Here is my first try at it > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?278928

Full through dados are easier. In my opinion, stopped dados look better.

Take care to avoid blow out on the exit end of the dado.

jtk

[Jason Buresh]

I have made dados every possible way. I would rather set them out and mark their positions by hand, and then use hand tools to form them. I am not racing the clock. It is also not a journey thing, although this is a part of it. I just feel more in control and sure of the outcome working by hand than with power tools (and I am as experienced with power as hand), where things can go wrong very quickly.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Normally I would agree, but the OP specifically said he is making bookcases to house some 4000 books. We aren't talking 6-8 dados here for a normal book case. It sounds like he will be cutting dozens, if not over 100 dados.

This is a case where taking even an hour to build a crosscut sled for the table saw will save hours of cutting by hand.

[Derek Cohen]

Mmmm ... I did not see that in his original post, and then missed it several posts later. Dozens of dados does change things somewhat :o

I did once make a cabinet with 30 dados ... but used a power router :)

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ApothecaryChestWeekendFour_html_m43d83b99.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Young]

For shelving for books it is really helpful to avoid 3/4 material. A shelf that is 7/8 or 1" will sag noticeably less than one that is 3/4. Even if you end up with a 3/4 dado, I would make a small rabbet on the end of a 7/8 board to fit in the dado.

I think a thicker shelf just looks better in a bookcase.

The https://woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/ is a good place to get a feel for how much things could possibly sag. It makes assumptions about the shelf stock being "perfect" straight grain with no knots or defects.

While I haven't made personal measurements to compare real-life sag, I have taken its results into account when deciding on spans and if I add a re-enforcing strip to the front & back edges of a shelf. So far, no complaints or failures.

[steven c newman]

One other idea...a form of sliding dovetail...as a 1/2 dovetail. Another would be a sliding dovetail.

One can add a lip to the edge of a shelf, to help prevent sags. And, attach the back of the shelf to the back of the case, usually via a screw centered along the length of the shelf.

[Mark Rainey]

Jason, you make a valid point. Conversely it is only through this type of repetition that one can become really skilled at use of a sensitive tool like a dado plane. Many Neanders avoid using the dado plane because they do not use it repetitively. Through repetitive use one will learn the intricacies of spur placement, depth of cut, etc. And afterward the OP can give forum members valuable wisdom. Dado on!

[Rafael Herrera]

4000 books, at 1" wide each, 20 books per shelf, 200 shelves, 400 dadoes.

Three dadoes at a time, 133 plane runs.

To some it may be tedious, or too much effort. What are we doing here if we only want quick effortless uses of hand tools?

One of the reasons I got into this hobby was the dislike for the dust, noise of the power tools, the respirator, the eye protection, the dust collector system. And even then, I would get crap in my eyes.

Nothing wrong with power tools, I use them, but it's not enjoyable.

There's something goofy in going to all the trouble to get the fancy space age steel or vintage planes and chisels, but they only get used when the task is short and easy.

[Jason Buresh]

Mark, you also make a very strong point. Only through repetition and practice will you master a hand tool.

I guess it is up to the OP to decide if he is just looking for an efficient way to make dados or if he wants the mastery of a specialty tool.

Either way I hope they share their pictures and lessons learned from the project

[Jason Buresh]

4000 books, at 1" wide each, 20 books per shelf, 200 shelves, 400 dadoes.

Three dadoes at a time, 133 plane runs.

To some it may be tedious, or too much effort. What are we doing here if we only want quick effortless uses of hand tools?

One of the reasons I got into this hobby was the dislike for the dust, noise of the power tools, the respirator, the eye protection, the dust collector system. And even then, I would get crap in my eyes.

Nothing wrong with power tools, I use them, but it's not enjoyable.

There's something goofy in going to all the trouble to get the fancy space age steel or vintage planes and chisels, but they only get used when the task is short and easy.

You can't be serious that hand cutting 400 dados is not tedious.

I enjoy hand tools for the same reasons you do. I hate the noise, dust, and danger of them in a small basement shop.

But, let's be realistic here, if I had 400 dados to cut, it would be worth the effort to drag my table saw upstairs to the garage and set it up.

[steven c newman]

Too many assume that thise "400" Dados all have to be done at once....when they don't really need to be.

Operations can be divided up into sub-assemblies...as a series of Book Cases. Otherwise, this would be way to big and cumbersome to move, or install into place.

Done as a series of smaller bookcases....maybe like a set of Barrister's

One can also use a Carcass Saw to saw the walls of the dados....then the plane of choice to remove the waste


Too many are too wrapped up in how much time something takes....almost like they are working to a Time Clock. Some of us do not have such restrictions.

If "time" is so limited for some....why are they even bothering?

What restricts my time in the shop is my health....right now it is my knee....I have no deadlines to meet....have no time clock to punch...I work in the shop as a hobby....When I do go to the shop, I do not just stand around, I am there to get a task done..usually I set about 3-4 tasks to be done. And...I get "done" when I get done.

hand tool vs power tool? I use the best tool for the task at hand. That I have on hand. Shop IS a Hybrid Shop, always has been.

[Rafael Herrera]

If doing three at a time, or even 4 at a time, it's 133 or 100 runs with the dado plane. One would quickly realize doing one at a time, like when using a table saw, is not efficient.

This job is an excellent excuse to splurge on a plane. The Australian plane looks very nice, but they can be had from a local USA maker too, Steve Voigt, http://www.voigtplanes.com/dado.html, no connection with me.

My estimate was for 24" wide shelves. If the design uses 28" or 36" shelves, the number of dodoes to cut is reduced, down to about 55 if going for 36" shelves and four at a time.

[Jim Koepke]

One way to save time & effort when cutting dados for shelves is to align the left and right sides of the case and cut the dados for both sides together.

This can be a little tricky if one is cutting stopped dados. For appearance the only side that needs to be stopped is the front face. So make sure all is square and align the backs.

My objection to using a powered router is it always seems to grab somewhere and skew off course.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

If doing that many dados by hand you may want to find a source for some spare knickers.

[Mark Rainey]

If doing that many dados by hand you may want to find a source for some spare knickers.

Good point Scott, perhaps that is why Terry Gordon has HSS for his nickers on his dado planes.