Woodpeckers MortiseMatch

[ChrisA Edwards]

Got the email flyer for this accessory this morning from Woodpeckers.

Being a Festool Domino 500 user, this looked like an intriguing, useful jig.

I watched the video, without looking at the price, and thought this is a pretty nice jig/tool and set my "how much would I pay for this" price in my head, being prepared to actually purchase one, only to be way off and watch another nice Woodpeckers tool priced out of reach for the average wood worker.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_KEE7Gfsj0&t=231s

[John Kananis]

I'll have a watch a little later but looks like a pretty (easy to build) standard jig that's been around for the biscuit joiner for quite a while.

[Edward Weber]

My advice would be, watch the video if you need to and them make your own.
As usual WP tools are overpriced. $650 for a simple jig, seriously.
JMO

[ChrisA Edwards]

My advice would be, watch the video if you need to and them make your own.


You took the thoughts right out of my head.

[Edwin Santos]

Got the email flyer for this accessory this morning from Woodpeckers.

Being a Festool Domino 500 user, this looked like an intriguing, useful jig.

I watched the video, without looking at the price, and thought this is a pretty nice jig/tool and set my "how much would I pay for this" price in my head, being prepared to actually purchase one,

I saw from some of your other posts that you're a Pantorouter owner.
At any price, what could a jig like this do for you that you cannot already do better on your Pantorouter?

[ChrisA Edwards]

I saw from some of your other posts that you're a Pantorouter owner.
At any price, what could a jig like this do for you that you cannot already do better on your Pantorouter?


Yes I own a Pantorouter. What this has that the Pantorouter doesn't, at least currently, is the adjustable angle fence for 45 degrees or other non 90 degree joints and the ability to accurately set the reference stops, left and right.

But you are correct, with a little bit of effort, I could probably build a fence to do this on the pantorouter.

Currently, for picture frame type joints, I use a Seneca Tools plate for this on my Domino 500.

[Edwin Santos]

Yes I own a Pantorouter. What this has that the Pantorouter doesn't, at least currently, is the adjustable angle fence for 45 degrees or other non 90 degree joints and the ability to accurately set the reference stops, left and right.



Ah, I see. Thank you for elaborating. The reason I asked is because I'm new to the Pantorouter myself and once I got through the learning curve and familiarized myself with the operating principle, I am continually impressed with what it can do.
My kit came with a metal pivoting fence with long slots that will adjust to any angle. What I do is set my desired angle on a bevel gauge and then lay it on the table, set the adjustable fence to it, and off we go.
I can post a photo of the fence I'm talking about if it is useful to you or anyone else.

With a bit of jig hardware, making special fences for the Pantorouter table is very easy. I made a high fence for backing up through mortises for example.

However, I would never say it entirely takes the place of a Domino because sometimes it's just better to take a tool to the work.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Yes would love to see those pictures.

I just got a Onefinity CNC, so my first thought was to replicate the Woodpeckers idea, I actually have the old Woodpeckers drill press fence, after I upgraded to the new style, so that could possibly use that in some of the fabrication.

I have the Shaper Origin Workstation table, which is a little larger than the Woodpeckers tool here. With all its stops and ancillary parts it was about $400, which is what I probably would have paid for the Woodpeckers tool.

[Jacob Mac]

Have you seen this?

https://youtu.be/qP3JGfjUGbM

[ChrisA Edwards]

Have you seen this?

https://youtu.be/qP3JGfjUGbM

Perfect, thanks

[Edwin Santos]

Yes would love to see those pictures.



Chris,
Here are photos of the fences I was mentioning. If your Pantorouter kit did not come with the fence I show, you could certainly order it. Making either one would be a pretty simple affair with the Pantorouter. Either the standard mortise templates, or even better, the slot mortising template with the moveable stops would allow you to make slots of any size. I use the jig t-bolts from Lee Valley with hardware store wing nuts. I've done some chairmaking that involved setting the workpiece on a ramp wedge in order to locate the mortise. Pantorouter would suggest tilting the table into the vertical position when needed, but I preferred to make the high fence to support a workpiece clamped in the vertical position.

Again, not knocking the Domino in any way, but I cannot think of a procedure it can do that the Pantorouter cannot do, unless the scale of the work is such that taking a portable tool to it makes more sense in which case the Domino is good to have.

477522477523477524477525477526477527477528

[Wojciech Tryc]

Veritas is also working on one, and they are actually referring to the original designer and crediting him for the design (plus some royalties). Also, the price will be much lower.

[Justin Rapp]

I don't have a Domino jig, but I am a woodpecker fan, for most items. I really do see this one, along with many of their tools just priced way out of line for what it is. I get it, they do make quality and it's made in the USA so you support American workers. However, when it comes down to it, some of their tools are just priced off the charts. My view is, this jig is a semi-limited market, so they have to sell it high to offset the R&D expense. However, if they really wanted to get one into more hands, they sure do need to drop the price. They might even sell five times more of them if they priced it sub $300. Per unit it would quickly offset the R&D costs with substantially more sales.

[richard poitras]

It looks to me that Woodpeckers copied the idea from Carmonius Finsnickeri the guy who came up with it 2 years ago? If you look at his video above it clearly is a spin off of it. Too bad big business does this. To me it casts a bad image of any company that does such things and makes me not want to buy from them.

So plus one to Veritas for actually referring to the original designer and crediting him for the design and working with him.

[Jared Sankovich]

So it's basically Hofmann dovetail base with a domino instead of a router.

[Edward Weber]

With all due respect to Carmonius Finsnicker, he may have put it on YT 2 years ago but these types of jigs have been around for years and years.
Anyone who has a biscuit jointer has probably built something similar at some point.
Honestly, it's a board with a fence. Any woodworker should be able to make one for much less than what it's being sold for at WP.
As for WP, I like a small fraction of there tools, many are just remakes of old or forgotten tools, some are answers to problems no one has and all of them are priced too high. Also, how many squares do they make? That's just my opinion, everyone buy what you want to.
I agree with Justin Rapp but sadly, this is not WP's business model

[ChrisA Edwards]

Chris,
Here are photos of the fences I was mentioning.

Much appreciated.

[richard poitras]

With all due respect to Carmonius Finsnicker, he may have put it on YT 2 years ago but these types of jigs have been around for years and years.
Anyone who has a biscuit jointer has probably built something similar at some point.
Honestly, it's a board with a fence. Any woodworker should be able to make one for much less than what it's being sold for at WP.
As for WP, I like a small fraction of there tools, many are just remakes of old or forgotten tools, some are answers to problems no one has and all of them are priced too high. Also, how many squares do they make? That's just my opinion, everyone buy what you want to.
I agree with Justin Rapp but sadly, this is not WP's business model

I agree...

[Patrick Varley]

As for WP, I like a small fraction of there tools, many are just remakes of old or forgotten tools, some are answers to problems no one has and all of them are priced too high. Also, how many squares do they make? That's just my opinion, everyone buy what you want to.
I agree with Justin Rapp but sadly, this is not WP's business model

Step 1) take existing concept/product/jig
Step 2) Make said product out of "precision CNCd (red anodized) aluminum"
Step 3) Profit

[Edwin Santos]

Woodpeckers seems to be a company people love to hate
I remember how much the woodworking community loved to hate SawStop because of some of the original owner's legal maneuvers. But that seems to have faded from memory, and change in ownership definitively put that in the past.
I always notice that Lee Valley always stays on the high ground and never seems to get much hate.
Maybe its because it's hard to hate Canadians.

[Billy Stray]

It looks to me that Woodpeckers copied the idea from Carmonius Finsnickeri the guy who came up with it 2 years ago? If you look at his video above it clearly is a spin off of it. Too bad big business does this. To me it casts a bad image of any company that does such things and makes me not want to buy from them.

So plus one to Veritas for actually referring to the original designer and crediting him for the design and working with him.

I was following this story yesterday, and I totally share your opinion patent or not...

[johnny means]

Hmm, has Woodpecker been digging through my archives.https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?152256-Festool-Domino-Table-and-double-shot-of-the-Kool-Aid-gloat&highlight=

[Edward Weber]

Woodworkers make jigs, it's simply part of what we do.
I'm sure many of us have built jigs and fixtures at one time or another only to later see similar versions for retail sale, it happens.
If I build things for a living, why would I pay for something as simple as a clamping board and fence? ( I ask rhetorically)
I just build a jig to do the job and move on. Not every little shop jig is worthy of mass production or even limited production in WP's case.
It's a different mind set.
I see this tool and think, I could make that, it might be handy. I certainly don't think, $650 (on sale) what a deal, I think I'll pick one up.
Which is why they often are the company we love to hate.

I don't claim to know where WP got their idea from, whether is was the Carmonius Finsnicker video or somewhere else, it's certainly nothing new.
Example, from 2001
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/thestationarybiscuitjoiner.aspx

[Ola Carmonius]

If I build things for a living, why would I pay for something as simple as a clamping board and fence? ( I ask rhetorically)
I just build a jig to do the job and move on.

I don't claim to know where WP got their idea from, whether is was the Carmonius Finsnicker video or somewhere else, it's certainly nothing new.
Example, from 2001
https://www.highlandwoodworking.com/thestationarybiscuitjoiner.aspx

I see you are discussing mine and woodpeckers jigs so I thought I should become a member and answer some thoughts.

If you build things for a living you are well aware of that speed, high accuracy and short set up times is key. This is not "just a clamping board with a fence". The bisquit versions you linked to is about that, except for clamps though. The domino jig is a different beast and the accurate flipping of the fence is the key/brain that differs it from others. No need to spend time trying to prefectly center the joint in thickness of the stock, no test cuts are needed, there's no "knocking the fence a little bit, make another test cut, adjust and repeat". It's dead on accurate method at first try and within minutes you made a frame that perfectly aligns in all corners. As a pro woodworker the time to build my jig is saved over and over several times for me. I would also say woodpeckers with their price will save so much time that it pays itself over time if you work a lot with narrow parts and smaller frame structures. This doesn't go for earlier models without the smart flip fence or concept how to adjust for different thickness of material (which woodpecker have solved in a better and very much more expensive way than I have), and without integrated clamping concept.

Edit. Pretty much all my jig builds drive in the same direction. Speed up set up time, minimize no of test cuts and small adjustments needed and improve accuracy. For instance my digital side fence for the router may seem like massive overkill...but with about 1 hour build time and 35$ cost it has also paid itself over and over. So has my digital fence for the router table. The later not invented by me as I also clearly state in the video. https://youtu.be/W8GJfRDhf4c and https://youtu.be/hz17-UutQNU

[Ola Carmonius]

Again, not knocking the Domino in any way, but I cannot think of a procedure it can do that the Pantorouter cannot do

Fully agree that the Pantorouter is much more versatile than the Domino.

But for the specific tasks this Domino table was developed, the Domino will be a quicker choice with shorter set up time, at least I think so...

Using the pantorouter, you would either need to perfectly center the joint in thickness (if that joint position is ok), or find a way to perfectly flip the fence around the x-center of the cut, or move the template, after the fence is moved left to right. For frame constructions with the joint off centered in thickness, which is pretty usual if it's a profiled frame or a frame with a rabbet, the fence would need to be moved from left to right. This is handled automatically in these Domino jigs but I think it would need some test cuts and adjustments on the pantorouter, before the position is perfectly mirrored.

[ChrisA Edwards]

The reason I started this post was that this WP tool offered the left right positioning of the stops for cutting mating pieces.

I have a Pantorouter, and yes it can be setup and be manually adjusted to obtain the correct positioning, but I prefer physical/mechanical methods of doing this, taking my error out of the equation.

The variable height adjustment is also a nice feature on the WP jig, but as Carmonius showed, that can be easily solved with a bit of shimming.

I'm please I started this thread as it lead me to Carmonius's great jig, and I hope you don't mind, Carmonius, but I'm going to copy it for my own personal use. Thank You.

[Ola Carmonius]

The reason I started this post was that this WP tool offered the left right positioning of the stops for cutting mating pieces.

I have a Pantorouter, and yes it can be setup and be manually adjusted to obtain the correct positioning, but I prefer physical/mechanical methods of doing this, taking my error out of the equation.

The variable height adjustment is also a nice feature on the WP jig, but as Carmonius showed, that can be easily solved with a bit of shimming.

I'm please I started this thread as it lead me to Carmonius's great jig, and I hope you don't mind, Carmonius, but I'm going to copy it for my own personal use. Thank You.

Go ahead and copy, that was the reason I uploaded the video a few years ago, for people to build their own which many have already. This is some extra info linked in the video description, if needed.

[Edwin Santos]

Fully agree that the Pantorouter is much more versatile than the Domino.

But for the specific tasks this Domino table was developed, the Domino will be a quicker choice with shorter set up time, at least I think so...

Using the pantorouter, you would either need to perfectly center the joint in thickness (if that joint position is ok), or find a way to perfectly flip the fence around the x-center of the cut, or move the template, after the fence is moved left to right. For frame constructions with the joint off centered in thickness, which is pretty usual if it's a profiled frame or a frame with a rabbet, the fence would need to be moved from left to right. This is handled automatically in these Domino jigs but I think it would need some test cuts and adjustments on the pantorouter, before the position is perfectly mirrored.

The way I would do the operation you are describing, on the Pantorouter, is as follows:
1. Mark the centerline of all my joints (good practice anyway)
2. Set up the fence to cut one end of the frame member, using the centerline of the joint for my placement exactly on the centerline scribed on the pantorouter table.
3. Move the fence to the other side of the centerline for the opposite side of the frame member using the same procedure. Doing this would not involve changing thickness setting even though the joint is off center in the workpiece thickness. The same workpiece reference face would stay down.
4. This should only take seconds and would not require a test cut unless you chose to do one.
5. Remember, the pantorouter is cutting both mortise and integral tenon in this manner.

Once the pantorouter is initially calibrated, the process of setting the template holder to the exact center of the workpiece is simple. In the even the joint is off center, you can use a setup block (1/8", 1/4" or whatever off center) to adjust the template holder setting.

Of course, the cost of a pantorouter is much higher than making your jig. If someone already owns a Domino then I would say your jig is a great way to get more functionality out of it. The pantorouter subject only came up because I knew the OP already owned one and I was curious why he was looking at other solutions.

[Wojciech Tryc]

I was following this story yesterday, and I totally share your opinion patent or not...
And we discuss ethical part of purchasing red tools available on Banggood….

[Ola Carmonius]

The way I would do the operation you are describing, on the Pantorouter, is as follows:
1. Mark the centerline of all my joints (good practice anyway)
2. Set up the fence to cut one end of the frame member, using the centerline of the joint for my placement exactly on the centerline scribed on the pantorouter table.
3. Move the fence to the other side of the centerline for the opposite side of the frame member using the same procedure. Doing this would not involve changing thickness setting even though the joint is off center in the workpiece thickness. The same workpiece reference face would stay down.
4. This should only take seconds and would not require a test cut unless you chose to do one.
5. Remember, the pantorouter is cutting both mortise and integral tenon in this manner.

Once the pantorouter is initially calibrated, the process of setting the template holder to the exact center of the workpiece is simple. In the even the joint is off center, you can use a setup block (1/8", 1/4" or whatever off center) to adjust the template holder setting.

Of course, the cost of a pantorouter is much higher than making your jig. If someone already owns a Domino then I would say your jig is a great way to get more functionality out of it. The pantorouter subject only came up because I knew the OP already owned one and I was curious why he was looking at other solutions.

Ok thanks for thorough answer. The centerline tactic I use myself when cutting mortices with the router so I'm quite familiar with it even if I don't own a pantorouter.

[Cary Falk]

I know this is an old thread, but I thought I would add some pictures to this thread to keep things in the same place for people that so a search in the future. I just finished this up yesterday. It is 22"x28" because that is the size of scrap laying around. I glued together 2 pieces of 1/2" baltic birch. The design was a combination of all of the sources here. Both sides are covered with Formica and cut on my CNC. The knobs are 3D printed. I also wanted to use this with my PC and mini Ryobi biscuit cutter so I drilled the Al plate to fit all three. Hopefullythis will help other people that want to build one.

493837493838493839

[John Kananis]

Hey that looks great! How do you accurately flip the triangle?

[Cary Falk]

The 2nd picture shows a rod that is held in place with the brass thumb screw in the triangle window. That rod indexes off the domino indexing paddles. Biscuits don't need that accuracy so I will just mark a line and align it with the mark on the biscuit jointer fence.