Engraving Firearms

[Glenn Norton]

I have a few people asking about engraving on firearms. I usually don't do them as I believe I saw some message about needing a license. Is this true.

[Kev Williams]

Yes and no.

once upon a time a few years ago after enduring many arguments on this forum as to whether or not you need a license, I decided to call my local ATF bureau. I spoke to a nice agent who asked me some simple questions, mostly to do with how involved was I as to my gun engraving, specifically, was engraving guns my main source of income from engraving. No, maybe 5% tops. The agent explained as long as I wasn't breaking any obvious laws or rules, such as engraving machine guns or stolen firearms, AND my firearm engraving income was 50% or less of my gross income, then I was perfectly within my rights to engrave 'legal' firearms.

However, less than a year after getting my ATF blessing, another agent showed up at my door, due to the fact that I'd engraved some simple flat pieces of steel for a guy who manufactured full-on mini-guns (legally) and this agent asked him who did the engraving. The agent shows up here making a big stink how I'm breaking the law, and the short version is, I was served an order Cease and Desist my gun engraving activities.

Some facts-- that some may dispute, but they're still facts:
1- The ATF laws on engraving, camouflaging and other basic gunsmithing in general clearly states that people like me who "OCCASIONALLY" engrave, repair or change the appearance of firearms do NOT fall into the legal definition of "a gunsmith" that requires a federal FFL license. This is EXACTLY how the first ATF agent I spoke to explained it to me..

But, fact 2: Should any ATF agent determine that you're 'not doing it right', and decides to serve you a Cease and Desist order to stop what you're doing or face jail time and lots of $$$ in fines, NO OTHER ATF AGENT can (or will?) do anything to reverse the order.

Here's the law as written, 8 US code title 921, 21 (D):

(21) The term "engaged in the business" means— "engaged in the business"(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
Note that as of a ruling in 2009, part D "a dealer", they added the terms "gunsmith", "engraver" and "...those who apply special coatings..." But as written, the law simply states, those who occasionally do gunsmithing, coatings or engraving of firearms are not considered "dealers in firearms". And if you're not a dealer, you don't need a license...

But tell that to the agent who left me with a C&D ;)

On paper the law is clear. But unless you are willing to, and have the money to, fight it in court, then the answer is simple: Either plan on getting an FFL license, or plan on NOT engraving firearms.

[Bert Kemp]

So Kev as the law applies if some one engraves an occasional firearm their not breaking the law and could do so as long as some jerk ATF agent says otherwise ? also what would be if someone brought you a gun youi set up the machine and they hit the go button and watch their gun get engraved. They engraved their own gun that would be OK yes? its like they borrowed your machine for a few mins.

[Kev Williams]

Bert, first question, pretty much. Like most laws, some of this is clear as mud. But some is crystal clear :)
As to 'some -- ATF agent', from what I've been told by those who know more about this than me, basically it seems agents can interpret and apply the law as they see fit. I could fight it, but it's not worth it to me.

As TO that interpretation, here's MY side--

First, partial photo of my C & D; pay particular attention to the 2nd paragraph,
how it explains [my] firearms activity appears to bring [me] within the definition of a gunsmith, etc...
477437
Now, you'll note this letter doesn't fully explain "the definition of a gunsmith"..

In my first post, I mentioned a ruling, this is it below, the "held" parts.
It explains that licensed dealers who camouflage, OR engrave, OR camouflage AND engrave, firearms,
does NOT need to be licensed as a MANUFACTURER.
477438
BUT the last paragraph states, rather bluntly, that anyone camouflaging and/or engraving
firearms must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the gun control act.
Seems pretty straightforward, yes?

Problem is, in THAT definition, and on my C & D, they conveniently leave out the
MOST IMPORTANT PART, which is, what exactly defines being in business as a gunsmith or dealer...!

Below, I give you the definition. Pardon the photo quality ;)
This is verbatim from US code § 921 - Definitions, paragraph 21, subparagraphs A-D:
FIRST, note the very first words are The term "engaged in the business" means--
Because, THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of this, is the 2 words, THE TERM...
477439
BECAUSE- as you read (C) and (D), the definitions by law as to what exactly makes you 'engaged in the business', toward the ends of the explanations in those paragraphs, you'll notice where I've highlighted first in blue then continued in green, these words:
but such TERM shall not include a person who makes OCCASIONAL sales... makes OCCASIONAL repairs... etc etc...

Extremely important this is, because THE TERM specifically refers to being ENGAGED IN THE BUSINESS OF...firearms ...

Simply put: According to the law as written, if a person is only OCCASIONALLY selling or repairing firearms, by definition THEY ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF selling or repairing firearms, and therefore are NOT required to be licensed... !!! (again, exactly what the first agent I spoke to told me.)

I was served a Cease and Desist based on my "appearing" to be in the business of engraving firearms. Didn't matter to the agent that by his own law I wasn't... his answer was "that isn't what it says"...

--but was this worth fighting in court? Nope. But it does stick in my craw more than a little bit ;)

[Bert Kemp]

yea It would tic me off(does tic me off) too

[Curt Harms]

This sounds like something that a trade association might get involved in. The root problem seems to be that the definition of "Occasional".


According to the law as written, if a person is only OCCASIONALLY selling or repairing firearms, by definition THEY ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF selling or repairing firearms, and therefore are NOT required to be licensed... !!!

I guess the law or rule as written relies on reasonable and sensible Agent interpretation. The the second agent demonstrated that not all ATF Agents are reasonable or sensible. Therefore there needs to be (unfortunately) a firm definition of occasional - some % of total engraving income or something like that. Or perhaps a paper that defines repairing as affecting the actual functioning of the firearm, not something that is strictly appearance related with no effect on the device's function.

[Kev Williams]

^^^^^^
agreed !!

In my case, I could prove my %-age of firearm engraving income to be well under 10%. But my 'bad' agent didn't give a rat's patootie about that...

[Curt Harms]

^^^^^^
agreed !!

In my case, I could prove my %-age of firearm engraving income to be well under 10%. But my 'bad' agent didn't give a rat's patootie about that...

I suspect your 'bad' agent a stereotypical bureaucrat. He/she will not make a decision that is the least bit risky to his/her career. The people he/she is supposed to serve pose a potential risk to his/her career so have to be handled so as to minimize that risk. I think the same mentality exists in a certain percentage of people in any large organization and you have to look far to find a larger organization than the U.S. Federal Government.

[John Lifer]

So Kev as the law applies if some one engraves an occasional firearm their not breaking the law and could do so as long as some jerk ATF agent says otherwise ? also what would be if someone brought you a gun youi set up the machine and they hit the go button and watch their gun get engraved. They engraved their own gun that would be OK yes? its like they borrowed your machine for a few mins.

Well, short answer is NO, but again it is convoluted. There are things such as 80% lowers for firearms. These require a 20% or so amount of work to turn into a receiver for a gun. Has historically been viewed as legal, as the 80% part is obviously not a gun. It take work to make it such. In the past, there have been 'parties' where an individual owns the equipment to convert these parts into a functioning gun. He would look over your shoulder while YOU pressed the button, or operated the machine. It was deemed illegal for him to do this. If I recall this was in Cali, but I think the Feds have backed this also. I'll stop here as the current admin has just made most 80% parts illegal.

[Steve Clarkson]

A few years ago, I used to do all the engraving for a retail company called Gander Mountain (before they filed bankruptcy and screwed me over). I believe the issue for needing a license dealt more with shipping the guns and as long as they only gave me the actual stock and not the lower, there wasn't an issue. I had them ship the guns from all over the country to my local store, and then I would go in and make sure that I was only picking up the stock, so this solved both issues for me. One guy did ship a fully assembled gun to me ONCE and since I'm not a gun person and do not know how to handle guns, I was able to bring it to my local store and have them disassemble it and hand me the stock. So my advice is to find a local gunsmith and have your customers ship to him (even if they are local)......the benefit to the gunsmith is that he might get a few new customers and the benefit to you is that the gunsmith will likely send you new customers for engraving.

[Bert Kemp]

so if a gun owner disassembled his glock 9 and just brought the side in for engraving would that be ok?

[John Lifer]

It ALL depends upon whom you ask Bert. Slide AT LEAST TODAY is an unserialized part (even though Glock serializes the barrel, slide and frame at the least on their guns by German law).
I've heard it both ways. Not serialized, it's ok, but you can infer that you are 'gunsmithing' if you engrave on any part and so it would be verboten. Also, if you did while customer waited.... I've heard both ways.
Its the federal government, no one will give you a single answer. Ask 10 agents and get 20 answers. It's why I have a license....

[Bert Kemp]

well I'm not going to do any, did my own but thats it.:)

[Kev Williams]

OK, disclaimer AS I UNDERSTAND IT based on my bad-agent's explanations directly to me:

Verbatim from him: "you can engrave automatic slides, and any gun barrels with no receivers, without a license"...

Further: ATF considers ANY receiver part of a firearm that can fire a bullet. And shotguns are included... Gray area? Like, if there's no barrel, how can a receiver, which is just basically a trigger assembly and mechanism to feed a bullet into a barrel, fire a bullet? In reality, it's not possible, unless you go to great lengths to use the receiver as a hammer; see next:

conversely, any barrel without a receiver CAN easily fire a bullet- you just need a way or person to hold the barrel while YOU strike the cartridge with a hammer and nail- or a receiver and a nail ;)

Interesting story: A rifle shop owner who I consider a good friend- and some of his other cronies, really stumped hard for me when I was served, and successfully got my bad-agent demoted somewhat (the guy isn't well like around here)- And this same rifle shop owner builds rifle barrels from scratch to customer's orders and fits them with Remington 700 receivers, and he does so without an FFL-! His simple explanation as to how, is because all of his sales stay in-state, no out of state work or sales. He also has a good lawyer :)

Anyway-- safest bet if planning on engraving guns is get the FFL...

[Glenn Norton]

That is what I was looking for. We are close the the DC area and we have several military offices around town and I just wanted to see what the rules where.

[Dan Hollis]

However, less than a year after getting my ATF blessing, another agent showed up at my door, due to the fact that I'd engraved some simple flat pieces of steel for a guy who manufactured full-on mini-guns (legally) and this agent asked him who did the engraving. The agent shows up here making a big stink how I'm breaking the law, and the short version is, I was served an order Cease and Desist my gun engraving activities.

you could always talk with the second amendment foundation to see if they'd be willing to take up your case.

the ATF has been spanked hard before (see mechtech systems vs atf), it can always happen again.

[Mike Null]

Please avoid political commentary.