Another shop build thread

[Zachary Hoyt]

I've been asking a lot of questions over the last several months and figured I would start a new thread to show whatever progress I make on the shop. I finally got my building permit on Monday for the workshop next to my "new" house in the Adirondacks. The shop is to be 16x32, built on skids without a foundation since there is a town water line buried near one wall. There is no other space in the yard to put it in without being on a pretty substantial slope, so this is how it ended up being designed. I would have preferred a square footprint on a slab with a small loft above, but that's life. First world problems, as Jim Becker wisely said in another thread while I was planning.

I went up on Monday and got the permit, unloaded everything out of the bus(tub/shower unit, 2 toilets, a sink, metal roofing, 2 metal chimneys, lot of electrical stuff, a pile of treated lumber for the skids, some joists for the kitchen floor, a wheelbarrow, etc), and drove about 5 miles over to a place that sells screened tailings from an old iron mine. I asked for a ton and a half but got a little over two. I shoveled it onto a tarp inside the bus, drove it back to the site, rolled out some plastic and shoveled it out and spread it. The inspector required the plastic and gravel.

Tuesday I got another ton plus on my first trip, and then half a ton on the last trip. After loading the half ton I went to the nearby lumberyard only to find out that they didn't have 4x8x16 solid blocks, so after unloading the second lot of gravel I drove 45 miles to Potsdam and bought 60 blocks, and a bit more wood. Once I got back I spent some time placing and leveling blocks for the 36 support points. I put the treated wood for the skids on top of the blocks and basted them together with a screw at each end of each board.

Wednesday I spent most of the day working on the outside part of the electrical installation. The crew came that morning and took down the drop that was still live to the old meter. About 4:30 I got done with that, started the generator and drilled 100 1/2" holes, 25 in each skid. I had bought some 5" bolts on eBay but they turned out not to be actually quite 5" and the ends were a bit tapered, so I was not able to actually put in the bolts. I ordered some 6" bolts that night that should be here soon. The inspector said not to use carriage bolts. The last picture shows the state of the job Wednesday evening. Thursday it rained so I mostly worked inside. I am supposed to be able to get my first installment of lumber from the Amish by Tuesday and am going to go back up Wednesday. My plan for next week if everything gets here in time and it doesn't rain too much is to put in the bolts and install the floor joists and the floor deck, which will both be rough cut pine. If that doesn't work out I'll spend my time putting the sills, joists and plywood into the kitchen floor instead. It will be nice when I have a floor in there, not just an aluminum plank across the void.

[james manutes]

Excited to follow along w/ you . Good luck .

[Ron Selzer]

Looks like that bus is working out for you

[Jim Becker]

A great start to what will be an interesting and rewarding project for you!

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all very much. Yes, the bus is working well so far. I had an intermittent check engine light for bank 1 running lean, but it only came on at times when I pushed the bus harder climbing hills, and it seemed to still be running fine. I'll put in some injector cleaner and see if that might help. With gas prices like they are the operating cost seems to be about 50 cents a mile, but that's life.

[Lisa Starr]

Looks like an interesting project. I'll be following along. Glad to see the bus is working out for you.

[Kris Cook]

Looks like you are getting your money's worth out of the bus. That shovel looks like a coal scoop - looks like a workout. Good luck with your build.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you both very much. I finally have a little bit of progress to report.

Maybe that is a coal scoop, I don't know. I got it at an auction and have bought a couple of virtually identical ones at the flea market in past years. I have seen something like this sold in a catalog as a "street scoop", too. I suppose that would be for cleaning up after horses, at a guess. I use it for sawdust, or anything in a pile, and as a long handled dustpan in concert with a push broom

The bus is working very well so far, and I hope it will continue. I brought up a biggish load of wood this morning, and in town on the way this evening from the house to the motel it stalled and when I restarted it I got smoke and a burning rubber smell, so I shut it off. As I had suspected, the AC belt was the source of the smell and noise. The AC clutch or the compressor began making noise on my last trip but it got better before I got home. A friendly local policeman stopped to see if I needed help, and I told him what was going on, and crawled under the bus with a flashlight and a utility knife to cut the belt, but I found it had already broken so I just pulled it out. The serpentine belt runs everything else on this engine, and the AC has its own belt right behind the serpentine. I'll have to decide whether to get a new/rebuilt compressor unit or just do without AC.

Today I counterbored the bolt holes in the skids using a 1-1/2" spade bit which made a nice though ragged hole, since my 6" bolts have been stranded in a sort facility in some place called Ybor City, Florida since Friday. I only had to go in about 1/2" to use the bolts I had, so it took a bit of time but it was well worth it not to have to wait. It took some time driving the bolts in and putting on the nuts and washers, but the tightening was quick with my ancient Makita 1/2" plug in impact wrench. Then I put the floor joists on. I still need to put on most of the little pieces of 2x2 that connect the joists to the skids, but with my plug in screw driver that will be pretty quick, and then I can put the floor boards down. I have enough 2x6 to frame one end wall, and then I'll have to wait till I bring the next load of lumber next week. In the meantime there is lots to do in the house, right now putting the joists and plywood in the kitchen floor. I think based on the forecast I'll be doing that tomorrow and completing this week's work on the workshop on Friday. I'm very thankful for the bus. It has really made things much more feasible, as I would otherwise have had to wait till the weight limit was taken off the roads so I could bring in a heavier rental truck.

The electrical inspector called today to say he won't be able to come in the morning but will come in the afternoon tomorrow, or Friday morning. I hope he will be able to come this week sometime, and I hope even more that it all passes inspection when he does come.

[Jim Becker]

Great progress there, Zachary! That framework came together nicely and once you get it decked it's going to be darn solid. Be sure you consider insulation now because "up slope" the space is clearly not going to be conducive to access from below. Tacking in support strips along the bottom of the joists would allow use of insulation board to slip down in before you put on the deck.

The shovel type is pretty common. Metal ones indeed do likely date back to the days of coal, etc. Today's plastic versions are very popular for moving things like sawdust/shavings for horse stalls and things like mulch. The big pan of the shovel can hold a lot of material.

Ybor City brings good memories of great Cuban food at a restaurant called Columbia...ate there several times over the years when i traveled for business.

[Bob Riefer]

You are one very resourceful person, and I admire that! Definitely following along :)

[Eugene Dixon]

Ybor City brings good memories of great Cuban food at a restaurant called Columbia...ate there several times over the years when i traveled for business.

And the Flamenco dancers at the Columbia. Planning another visit in October.

[Alan Lightstone]

Ybor City brings good memories of great Cuban food at a restaurant called Columbia...ate there several times over the years when i traveled for business.

It's still there, Jim. As well as a few other locations, one near me on the beach. Bummer your bolts got stalled there, Zachary. Not a clue why.

You're off to an impressive start. And I think that bus idea is brilliant.

Are you doing this by yourself? If so, even more impressive.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all very much for your encouragement. It's nice to know that Ybor City is an actual place and not just a polite fiction for where packages go when they are no more.

I just got back tonight, and I got some work done, though the jacking up, sill replacement and joist installation in the house kept me busy till about noon today so I had only 5 hours to work on the workshop, and then I wasted some of that time on the phone trying to get an answer from National Grid about when they will come and put in the wire and turn on the power. The good news is that the electric service passed inspection with only two minor changes required, both involving my having connected the ground wire to the wrong terminal. I was connecting them next to where the neutral terminals are, and instead I was supposed to put them in the big holes on the ground bars. The inspector was very nice, and I just sent him a picture to show that I had made the alterations before he sent the approval in. It's a relief to be past that, and it will be really nice when I can get power.

I screwed the rest of the 100 little 2x2 pieces to the skids and the joists, and got half of the floor put on. I ordered all the floor boards as 2x8x12, and I have to cut both ends off all of them since they're rough cut. I did the first 8 which cover 2 feet by measuring and marking, and then I put the miter saw on the deck and screwed scraps on both sides to hold it, and screwed stops to the deck so I don't have to measure. I take a board off the pile and set it on top of the 2x4 to the right of the saw and cut off the left end. Then I slide it to the left all the way to the stop and cut off the other end, and have a 12 foot board. Once I have six 12 foot boards I make a third cut on two more boards. Once they are cut to 12 feet I slide them back to the right till they hit the 2x4 on the right, and that cut makes an 8 foot and a 4 foot board. This way I can start the generator, cut 8 boards in less than 5 minutes, and shut it off again. 8 boards does 2 feet of width on the 32 foot building with the board joints staggered 4 feet. It took 10 minutes or so to set up the stops, but not having to measure 56 boards will be much more efficient. I got half the floor boards cut and nailed down, and based on how long that took it should only be another 2 hours to get the rest of the deck done. It took about 9 pounds of 3-1/4" box nails for the half I did, so I'm glad I bought 18 of the 5 pound boxes they had at the ReStore for $3 a piece.

I've abandoned hope of putting in insulation from below, it is indeed too tight of a space to be at all suitable. I'm planning to put some EPS or XPS (I forget which) foam on top of the floor boards and then put Advantech over that, as was recommended by a poster in an earlier thread where I asked for help.

My work crew consists of me, my evil twin, our imaginary friend, and the man in the moon. We all keep looking for Jimmy Hoffa in all the holes we have to dig, but we haven't found him yet.

[Jim Becker]

I've abandoned hope of putting in insulation from below, it is indeed too tight of a space to be at all suitable. I'm planning to put some EPS or XPS (I forget which) foam on top of the floor boards and then put Advantech over that, as was recommended by a poster in an earlier thread where I asked for help.

That's a good plan...you'll get about an R-10 from 2" of foam and will also have a pretty comfortable floor. If you skirt the structure after it's up, that should also help. Most heat loss is through the roof followed by walls and penetrations, so focusing most of your insulation efforts there will have bigger payback than getting too crazy on the floor. IMHO, of course...and you know how much you paid for it. LOL

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you very much. It's all new to me to insulate in this way, but it sounds good in theory. I have always thought that floor insulation was less important, but something I read recently about insulation guidance from the government said that there should be more in the floor than the walls, which seemed odd to me. I would like to skirt the building but I have also heard from people about the importance of ventilation under there, so I am not sure. I'm thinking I'll maybe do the side walls solidly and put a removable panel in each end wall with a hardware cloth screen behind it so that I can open up the ends in the summer weather and close them for winter. I don't know if that's sensible or not. I think that keeping the sides solid will prevent water from splashing in under the building and getting the skids wet, or getting on top of the plastic. I can't do gutters very well in that climate without the ice tearing them off, and I don't think I'll need French drains because the ground is very sandy/gravelly and well drained.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, in an ideal situation (especially for a residence) heat transfer down below needs to be taken seriously as there is a lot of bridging from the building materials. The same is true for moisture transfer. Since the 2" rigid foam can support a lot of weight, placing it on top of your subfloor and taping prior to installing a floating Advantec working floor will place a break in mechanical bridging which makes for a lot more comfort...even though the actual insulation value is only R-10 or so.

Making wall panels that can hinge open in nice weather is a very nice way to go. You get full wall value insulation in the very cold months and can open up when it's really pleasant.

If you can't or don't want to do gutters, just be sure you are careful in how you design your roof overhangs so that precipitation heads well away from the structure and water doesn't "wrap around" the bottom edge which can cause significant moisture damage, even in a short time period. Were I doing what you are doing, I'd go with a relatively steep roof pitch and use metal roofing so snow slides off easily, too.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thanks, that all makes sense about how the insulation works. I hauled the roofing up in the first load in the bus last week, it's green metal and will be on a 6/12 pitch. I always make the metal overhang the furring strips by at least 1/2", and I always cut the ends of the rafters at 90 degrees so the fascia boards are angled rather than vertical, so I haven't had trouble with water wrapping around. The roof will overhang about a foot past the walls. I'll also have to think about whether to insulate the skirting with more foam or just make it from metal or plastic panels or the like.

[Tom Bender]

If you do a heating load calculation you will find that the floor is going to be fine, as Jim says.

No need to insulate the skirting, just make it durable. Will this go on before the siding?

Gutters work fine in New York and even in Toronto and Maine and are an especially good idea on the uphill side at least.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Tom...no need to insulate the skirting. Just make it sturdy so it blocks as much wind, etc., as possible. Keeping the air under the structure from being exposed and constantly replaced with far colder air will help keep your floors even more comfortable.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I've been thinking about the skirting material, and have wondered about vinyl soffit material or aluminum coil stock. Maybe there's a better answer that I didn't think of. I don't have to worry about the lawn mower throwing rocks at it because I have a push reel and it doesn't do that.

Today I came up again with another load of wood to work on the workshop. It's been a long day since I got up at 5:15 and got on the road just after 6, and up here at 9. There were 3 or 4 inches of heavy wet snow when I arrived, but a lot of it had melted by tonight. I planted some perennial divisions in the snow (which was not ideal but I hope they'll live), finished putting down the floor and got the bus mostly unloaded, and then worked on framing the walls. I got them all up, and the door and two window locations are visible now. I have one more small window that I might put in if it seems too gloomy in there once it's enclosed. The door is mostly glass, so that may help. I got done with the frame just after 7:30, and would have been done soon after 7 except that I met a neighbor who hadn't come by before and spent a while talking with him. Tomorrow the hope is to put up the second top plate on the long walls, then the ceiling joists, and then the ridge plate and rafters if it doesn't rain too much. Friday morning the power company is scheduled to come and hook up the wires to the meter box, unless they are still working on repairing outages from the snow by then. I would like to get the roof on on Friday but will have to see if that is realistic.

[Jim Becker]

You are moving at lighting speed for a one-person-roadshow!!! That's really coming along!

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thanks, Jim, that's very kind of you.

I got part of the roof up today, and all of the ceiling joists, the double top plates and the window headers. It began to rain about 2 so I went inside and put down the subfloor in the kitchen for a few hours, and then went up and nailed up 10 rafters while it was still drizzling, because I had put them on top of the walls and the plank and didn't want to leave them unsecured overnight. I left the deadmen in place overnight to keep things stable if it stays windy, but tomorrow I can put up diagonal braces under the rafters to prevent racking. Today the winds were supposed to be gusting to 35, and it felt like it sometimes.

I'm hoping tomorrow to get the rest of the roof frame up, and maybe the furring strips and the metal if time allows. I need to leave by 5 or so since I'm going home tomorrow night. The bus has developed a bit of an oil leak in a pair of lines just to the front of the oil filter, so I will need to get an appointment at the garage for it next week. I will check the oil often en route, and hope I can keep up with adding it so I can get home.

[Jim Becker]

Totally impressive progress!!!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I didn't get as much done as I had hoped today, but now all but the 2 remaining end rafters are up. They'll go pretty quickly when I get back up there. The forecast for next week looks pretty bleak right now so I don't know when I'll go again, but the nice thing about spring is that the weather is likely to get better with the passage of time. I need to replace or have a shop replace the oil cooler lines, which are where the oil leak is on the bus. I had to stop and check it several times on the way home but all went pretty smoothly. The power guys did come and hook up the lines and put in a meter today, so I am very excited to have real electricity on site. The 12" miter saw runs a lot better on it than on the generator power. I cut all the studs and rafters with the chainsaw since it makes the job go so easily, but once I get to installing siding and trim the electric saws will be better.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I spent 3 days this week in Piercefield and made some progress on the shop building. I got the last 2 rafters, the furring strips and 3/4 of the roof up on Thursday, the rest of the roof and the blocking and siding on the south wall on Friday and the rest of the blocking and the gable end framing today. I brought up a table on wheels that I bought for $3 at a furniture factory auction years ago and it was very handy to put under the saw to make the cuts quicker. Having real electricity on site is very nice. I spent 3 hours vacuuming inside the house today and sucked up well over 200 pounds of mostly plaster fragments and dust, and ran various saws and the power screwdriver and now my meter shows that 3 KWH have been used. I replaced the leaking oil cooler lines last Saturday night, and it took 2 hours or so so it wasn't too bad.

[Jim Becker]

That building is looking very sturdy!!!

[Patrick McCarthy]

Zach. i wish i had your energy. Impressive amount of work done in a short time, especially flying solo.
Best, Patrick

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you both. The rafters are a little extra heavy due to the snow load requirements, and I went with 2x6 on 24" centers for the walls figuring that would give more room for rockwool insulation and reduce thermal bridging slightly over 2x4s on 16" centers.

I sometimes feel like I'm making fast progress, and sometimes I look at what's left to do up there in the next few months and it seems a bit daunting, but as things start to get done it seems more hopeful.

[Greg Parrish]

I've had to go back and look at the dates of the posts numerous times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. LOL Amazing speed and energy as stated before. Absolutely amazing. Look forward to seeing the finished building in a 6 or 7 more days. :)

[Jim Becker]

Once you have the building skinned/dried-in, it will make your life a lot easier since that lets you more easily bounce between it and the house for incremental tasks, especially on the bad weather days. I think you will "feel" that things are moving slower, but only because there's less visual cues than when walls and a roof suddenly appear out of nowhere... ;) ...but in reality, things will continue to chug along as long as you have time to devote to the project

[Zachary Hoyt]

I got good news this morning. I had thought the Amish weren't going to have my remaining lumber cut yet, because it didn't rain last week. I took my mother over that way to get her hair cut and stopped in this morning and there it all was, or at least most of it, so I will go back tonight with the bus and pick it up so I can take it with me in the morning. That'll work better too because it's time to move the Rose of Sharon bush, and it was going to be a squeeze to get it into the car, but in the bus there's all kinds of room. It will indeed be much nicer to work up there once the building is enclosed, and it should be done by Friday, I hope, if the weather forecast stays good. Now I just need to figure out how to get a Delta contractor's saw in through one of the bus doors.

[Jim Becker]

If you want any more Rose of Sharon... ;) I love how they look but can't stand how invasive they tend to be. I have some more I plan on eliminating here on this property.

That's great news on the lumber being ready and available!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I will have to ask my mother, she is the gardener and I am just the helper. If I recall right she said that it doesn't become invasive this far north because it's right on the edge of being too cold. We've had one in the yard here for years that has never spread, anyhow. I'm sorry they're invasive where you are, that is too bad.

[Jim Becker]

They are very "fertile" it seems and the number of volunteers is amazing. Those are also hard to pull out if they get more than a few inches tall...roots grow fast!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I asked my mother and she said it is the cold. She has to be extra careful to keep the bush composted and watered and such in order to keep it happy in this climate. I'm sorry they're invasive where you are. It sounds like they're tough to control.

I came up yesterday and got the bus unloaded and put the siding boards on the other 3 sides of the building. Before that I used the pile of wood to unload the table saw from the bus in two easy steps. The ramps are just 6 extra 2x4s and two 4" screws per side. With the 4 swivel casters it's a bit hard to control on a flat ramp. Tomorrow and Friday I am hoping to get the roof trim and battens put up and install the windows and door, if time permits. Today I worked inside since it was raining most of the time.

[Jim Becker]

Well...it's officially a shop with the table saw moved in!! :)

[Kyle Stiefel]

Zach,

Your a beast, I love it! You are a highly productive 1 man show.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It's officially a building now, with a door and windows that open and shut (and even lock). The door casing is just rough cut pine for now, but eventually I'll either sand it or put in some hardwood or something. I need to get a threshold to put under the door, too. Then the building will be used as a work/storage/possibly sleeping area while I work on the house, and I'll revive this thread when I get going on insulation, wiring, skirting, wall and roof coverings, etc, in 2 or 3 months at a guess.

[Bob Riefer]

Wow! Such an achievement, and you are doing a great job!!! Really fun to follow along too

[Jim Becker]

Wow...quite a milestone and that looks GREAT! It definitely will be versatile space while you continue your house renovations including for "camping", given you can have cross ventilation with the windows at night. (Hopefully there are screens... ;) )

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you both very much. There are indeed screens in the windows, but there are gaps between some of the floorboards as they are drying that would admit an enterprising bug, so I might have to set up my tent inside to sleep in. Black fly season is just around the corner, but luckily they don't stay up after dark and mosquitos aren't going to be a thing up there for a while yet. Once the insulation and upper floor is installed the shop should be bug proof, but I want to let the floor dry out well first.

[Sal Cangialosi]

Now that is very nice! Great to have a dedicated building as a shop.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I finally did a little more work on the shop. I buried 6/3 UF in a 2" PVC conduit because UF from Home Depot in 50' lengths was the cheapest 50 amp wire I could find online or in store anywhere, and I wanted the conduit since the ground is very rocky and full of tree roots up there. I ran 12/2 wire around the walls and put boxes in that will be 4' above the finished floor height. I used 2 gang boxes in the middle of the long walls and single boxes on the ends, with a box every 8 feet of wall all the way around. There is also a 12/2 MC wire to a single box on the ceiling in the center to plug in the rolling work table, and I put 12 octagon boxes on the ceiling joists and bought 12 porcelain lampholders that will get LEDs. The panel is the old 100 amp panel from the house which will be back fed from a 50 amp breaker. I'll also add a 50 amp 3 wire plug so I can plug in the welder near the door and run the leads outside in case I want to weld anything. I certainly can't weld in the shop with the wooden floor, but on the ground should be safe enough and I don't expect to have to weld very often. The inspector approved the rough wiring in the shop and the house last week, so I am clear now to go ahead and start hooking things up. I don't imagine I'll be ready to insulate and such till August or so, as the house is still taking most of my time.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It's been a long time since I updated this thread, but folks have very kindly answered a lot of questions I had along the way that I posted on the Off Topic forum. I did use the shop to live in on the days I was up here, from May to August. I had a pup tent inside to keep away from the bugs. Once the house was livable and we moved in at the end of August I was able to start working on the interior in between ongoing house projects and building the addition on the house.

The first thing was the floor. I put down 2" XPS foam and LP TopNotch 350 on top of the pine floorboards. I had to move all of the things that were in the shop from the old floor level up to the new one, but with a jack I was even able to move the lumber carts. Then I put 6" of Rockwool in the walls and 8" in the roof, heavy plastic over that and OSB to cover the plastic. It's ugly with all the OSB, but the shop is not meant to express my inner meaning or anything. It's a building where I can build instruments to sell, so it being comfortable, efficient and as cost effective as possible were the priorities.

I used aluminum coil stock to make the skirting since it seemed like it would be durable and quick to install. I was pleased that even when the firewood truck dumped a load for next year the aluminum didn't seem to dent or get bent out of shape by the chunks that slid up against it. There's no framing behind the aluminum, it just goes from the ground on one side to the rim joist on the other. The exception is at the high end where I made two doors from OSB covered with aluminum on the outside. They are hinged at the top so I can get under there to access the ladders and aluminum plank, canoe trailer, and other odds and ends that I put underneath.

The wood stove is working great. I have found that the shop with Rockwool, thicker walls and few windows holds heat a lot better than the house with thinner walls, spray foam and lots of windows. When the temperature has been around freezing in the day and the 20s at night I have only had to make a fire once a day and burn 2-3 pieces of beech, 5" square or smaller. It was windy today and I hadn't made a fire since last night so it got colder in there by the time I went over tonight to light a fire, but not cold enough to worry about the glue freezing.

I put up little shelves under the ceiling joists most of the way along the side walls and have been using them to store all kinds of flattish or smallish things. I am planning to build more shelves, and a lumber rack at some point. Right now I have a lot of sheet goods and lumber that are slated to become parts of the house interior, but I don't intend to keep that much material on hand most of the time in future.

[Jim Becker]

Looks like a good setup that satisfies your needs! And that's what counts the most. Good move on insulating the floor, too. THAT will definitely pay off over time with comfort.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Looks great, well done! The exposed cross ties and cathedral ceiling above sure add to the space. Ages ago I had a shop with a ceiling like that and really liked it.

[Zachary Hoyt]

That's very nice of you. I wasn't sure whether to close in the ceiling or not, but decided in the end that this was the best way. I have to make use of all the storage space I can get, and it seemed easier to access the attic area from below than by crawling in, since it's only 4 feet high or less. The joists aren't strong enough to put heavy stuff up there, but it's fine for shipping boxes and peanuts, empty banjo cases, and other bulky but fairly light stuff.