Hammer A3-41 Brand New - Infeed Not Flat

[Josh Baldwin]

So I just got my A3-41 and after an hour or so I got the outfeed dialed in perfectly with the segmented cutter heads.

Then I moved on to the infeed and there is a major problem, at least to me with my limited experience. So basically the infeed is perfectly flat across its length near the fence, but on the operator's side there is a large gully. It starts about 3 or so inches from the cutter head and ends about 6 inches or so from the beginning of the infeed. This gully is about 13 thou or so. When I check around the middle of the infeed between the operator's side and the fence this gully is about half this much.

I talked to Felder support and they're very helpful, but at the end of the day none of the adjustments I can make to try to achieve coplanar will remove this gully. So when I get the infeed first few inches from the cutterhead section coplanar to the outfeed that's great, except that gully is always there. I'm going to call them tomorrow to discuss further, but I'm pretty frustrated at this point and would love some advice on whether this is a big deal or not.

They said that their tolerances running diagonal across the infeed are 13 thou. Which first off seems like a lot, but secondly how does this matter if half of my table (the operator's side) is not even close to flat. Won't this cause all kinds of issues? I'm waiting on a new dust hose before running some boards through and it'll be here on Friday, but again any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Rod Sheridan]

The test is to edge joint two pieces of material between 3 and 4 feet long on the part of the table you think is good and place them edge to edge.

Acceptable results are touching at the ends with no, or a very tiny gap in the middle. ( I normally set mine and customers machine to have a tiny gap)

If the above is true, now try it where you think you’ll have a problem, the results should be the same.

Having seen this, I don’t expect that you’re going to have a problem…….Regards, Rod

[William Rae]

I have owned my A3-41 since 2006 and it’s a great machine. However, I went through hell trying to get it readjusted. Some of the problem was self-inflicted because my problem was due to worn out blades. I tried to fix it by adjusting the outfield table. Big mistake and in the end cost me a $450 Felder service call. The outfield table should be adjusted by Felder when you receive the machine and should never be moved.
Check your owners manual and you will find info about making a test cut. The result should be a spring joint with a hollow of no more than .010 inch. This is important to insure that the ends of your boards always come together. When the Felder Tech adjusted my machine as he knew it should be done, that is coplanar, he couldn’t get the machine to produce the correct results for the test cut. After many attempts and calling Felder, the tech realised that the infeed end of the infeed table needed to droop down slightly to get the correct results for the test cut. Once he dialed this in the machine has worked correctly ever since. I hope this is helpful to you and avoids a service call but if you can’t get it adjusted then a service call, even though expensive, will save you a lot of time.

[Josh Baldwin]

I have owned my A3-41 since 2006 and it’s a great machine. However, I went through hell trying to get it readjusted. Some of the problem was self-inflicted because my problem was due to worn out blades. I tried to fix it by adjusting the outfield table. Big mistake and in the end cost me a $450 Felder service call. The outfield table should be adjusted by Felder when you receive the machine and should never be moved.
Check your owners manual and you will find info about making a test cut. The result should be a spring joint with a hollow of no more than .010 inch. This is important to insure that the ends of your boards always come together. When the Felder Tech adjusted my machine as he knew it should be done, that is coplanar, he couldn’t get the machine to produce the correct results for the test cut. After many attempts and calling Felder, the tech realised that the infeed end of the infeed table needed to droop down slightly to get the correct results for the test cut. Once he dialed this in the machine has worked correctly ever since. I hope this is helpful to you and avoids a service call but if you can’t get it adjusted then a service call, even thought expensive, will save you a lot of time.

Thanks for the info. Yea I don't mind making the adjustments to be honest. My problem is that there's no adjustment that will make the actual infeed table a flat or even close to flat surface. I'll try to make some test cuts tomorrow, but I don't see how I'm going to get good results with a giant hollow on one side of the table.

[Josh Baldwin]

The test is to edge joint two pieces of material between 3 and 4 feet long on the part of the table you think is good and place them edge to edge.

Acceptable results are touching at the ends with no, or a very tiny gap in the middle. ( I normally set mine and customers machine to have a tiny gap)

If the above is true, now try it where you think you’ll have a problem, the results should be the same.

Having seen this, I don’t expect that you’re going to have a problem…….Regards, Rod

Thanks for the feedback Rod. So the only question I have I guess is if that large of a hollow on the table doesn't have a negative effect on the jointing ability then why bother having the tables even close to flat to begin with? I'm definitely not an expert on jointing, so I really do mean that question sincerely. If one side of the table is flat and produces great results and the other side of the table has a 13 thou hollow only 2 inches from the cutterhead and is 12+ inches long and that also produces great results, then I guess I don't understand where flatness/coplanar would matter at all. But again I don't mean this to come across flippantly, I really am confused as to why it won't matter.

[Mel Fulks]

Once you get the material several inches on to outfeed table all downward pressure should be on the outfeed table. I like to use a block of
wood with screws protruding a little to propel the piece . In feed table is basically a saw-horse.

[Brian Tymchak]

...After many attempts and calling Felder, the tech realised that the infeed end of the infeed table needed to droop down slightly to get the correct results for the test cut.

Are you saying that your tables are now slightly off coplanar and this is considered to be a correct setup to get a slight sprung joint?

[Ben Schmidt]

I love how companies always say their tolerances are +/- (insert the variance you measured here)

[Phillip Mitchell]

The diagonal tolerance is 0.013” out of flat?? That’s a pretty poor level of precision if you ask me. I can stick a 40” straight edge diagonally on my 12” Oliver and measure less than 0.002” out of flat and this is a machine from 1940 with some miles on her.

Are you saying that the infeed is bowed down along the length mostly / only on the side closest to the operator but flat on the back/fence side? That’s an odd bow to deal with on a machine that has no use/wear.

I would imagine that you might see some issues with that if edge jointing on that side of the table. Yes, all the pressure goes to the outfeed side fairly early on in the process but I could see some scenarios with certain lengths where that may throw things off more than it should.

How flat is the infeed table across its width right before the cutterhead?

[Dave Roock]

First, test some boards & see results. Without that, you do not know if there is a true problem. Looking forward to owning a A3-31 myself.

[Rod Sheridan]

Are you saying that your tables are now slightly off coplanar and this is considered to be a correct setup to get a slight sprung joint?

Yes, that’s how they come set from the factory and we set them to that measurement in the field…Regards Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the feedback Rod. So the only question I have I guess is if that large of a hollow on the table doesn't have a negative effect on the jointing ability then why bother having the tables even close to flat to begin with? I'm definitely not an expert on jointing, so I really do mean that question sincerely. If one side of the table is flat and produces great results and the other side of the table has a 13 thou hollow only 2 inches from the cutterhead and is 12+ inches long and that also produces great results, then I guess I don't understand where flatness/coplanar would matter at all. But again I don't mean this to come across flippantly, I really am confused as to why it won't matter.

Hi Josh, maybe I mis-understood you.

My understanding is that you have a hollow in the infeed table that does not extend all the way to the edge of the table next to the cutter head?

If so, the material will not dip into the head prior to being supported by the outfeed table…Regards, Rod

[Warren Lake]

I couldnt remember the SCM, only ever set it up once when it was misbehaving. When done it turned out it was the wood. I just checked the infeed and thinnest feeler gauge I have .0015 and I could not get it under the straight edge from end to end anywhere, straight edge running 90 degrees to length.

Lengthways and cross ways first first 4" lead edge more middle could almost get it under but just the tip barely, likely .001 might go. Consider leading edge most people never run support infeed or outfeed it makes sense from many years of wood sort of tipping and rubbing on that edge it should be down over time. like water on stones in a river. I dont know what specs are on these machines but those are the measures I found.

[Josh Baldwin]

Hi Josh, maybe I mis-understood you.

My understanding is that you have a hollow in the infeed table that does not extend all the way to the edge of the table next to the cutter head?

If so, the material will not dip into the head prior to being supported by the outfeed table…Regards, Rod

Hey Rod, so the 1.5"-2" next to the cutter head is flat and then the hollow starts. My concern was what if I'm jointing smaller pieces like for rails and stiles as an example and it's a 12" long board. Won't this kind of ramp upwards slightly from the hollow leading to inconsistent jointing? The blade guard will basically cover most of that flat 1.5"-2" section, so I don't really have any infeed that's flat to press down on a bit before transitioning my weight across to the outfeed. I hope that all makes sense and I really appreciate your advice.

[Josh Baldwin]

The diagonal tolerance is 0.013” out of flat?? That’s a pretty poor level of precision if you ask me. I can stick a 40” straight edge diagonally on my 12” Oliver and measure less than 0.002” out of flat and this is a machine from 1940 with some miles on her.

Are you saying that the infeed is bowed down along the length mostly / only on the side closest to the operator but flat on the back/fence side? That’s an odd bow to deal with on a machine that has no use/wear.

I would imagine that you might see some issues with that if edge jointing on that side of the table. Yes, all the pressure goes to the outfeed side fairly early on in the process but I could see some scenarios with certain lengths where that may throw things off more than it should.

How flat is the infeed table across its width right before the cutterhead?

Yea that's what they said, seems like a large tolerance to me as well. Yes, it's flat on the fence side. On the operator's side I basically have a flat 2" from the cutter head, then the big hollow, then a flat 4" at the beginning of the infeed. This hollow is basically halved when checking the middle depth between the operator's side and fence side.

I'll check the infeed table across the width tomorrow and report back, but I think it'll be pretty flat for the closest inch or so to the cutterhead.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Josh, I suggest you make sure that the test I recommended is successful, then try a short piece.

I expect that you’re going to be fine……Regards, Rod

[Kevin Jenness]

As several people said, the proof is in the pudding. If you can get good results disregard the measurements. You may find that you need to joint short pieces at the near and far edges of the tables away from the hollow. It probably won't have much if any effect on flattening and longer pieces with good technique.

A .013" sag is bad quality control, fortunately for you it is on the infeed table. I guess if it meets manufacturing tolerance it's technically not bad quality control, but it is a shoddy standard in my opinion. It may be that the machining was good and the casting changed shape afterward. Back in the day quality castings were aged before machining to avoid that problem. I have seen so many posts like yours that I would steer clear of any jointer I could not inspect with a straightedge or run before taking delivery, meaning used or a floor model - not easy to find on a jointer-planer.

I recall another situation where a customer complained about a .010" or .011" dip in a jointer table and was told by Felder that that number was the factory tolerance. Maybe that number is flexible. I had a runout problem on my Unisaw arbor long ago and when I called Delta to ask about the tolerance I was told that they would not state a number, only tell me whether what I measured was in bounds.

Jointers are touchy beasts, essential yet sometimes hard to tame. Sometimes a slight misalignment can completely throw the results off, sometime what seems like a big machining error functions just fine. I worked with a 12" Northfield and a Delta DJ20 that both had humps in the outfeed table but were very reliable. A couple of 16" machines with minor hollows in the outfeed were very hard to get dialed in. I would not intentionally set up jointer tables out of parallel but I can believe it could work in some cases. Go by results.

[Jason Evans]

I wouldn’t stand for this at all. Not with a $7000 tool. This is a bunch of malarkey. It doesn’t matter if it works or not. A .013 deviation IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Call them and tell them to fix this.

I just got a grizzly jointer and the infeed was out .011. The said their tolerance was .002 per foot and no more than .006 for the length of the table, and they stood by it. They sent me new tables quickly. The new outfeed was around .001 out and the new infeed was around .005. And this is grizzly, not one of the supposed top tool makers in existence.

[Keegan Shields]

Grizzly makes up for greater variance in their tool quality with great customer service. I have always had excellent customer service from them regardless of my order total or product line.

I have no direct experience with Felder, but I have not had the same great customer experience with companies who's main business is selling high dollar equipment B2B and who also decide to sell an economy line of products into the consumer market (yes they consider your $7K combo machine their economy line :eek:).

I also think that the level of customer service we expect as Americans is not universal, especially for European companies selling into the American market. This is made even worse by extreme demand and backlogs.

Lots of stories of customer service interactions with premium European brands the don't meet American standards - regardless of industry.

Just something to keep in mind when considering what brand to buy.

To the OP - like others have said, try it and see if there's a problem. For short/narrow pieces, you may just need to avoid that section of jointer table. It may not be worth your time to fight through customer service for a replacement.

[Bill McNiel]

FWIW - These are the Hammer Specs for the A3-41;

Cutter Head - end to end = .004"
Cutter Head to Outfeed = .028" to .010"
Table flatness = .010"
Jointer Fence = .006"
Planner Thickness L to R +- .006"

I am a fan of setting machines up as accurately as possible/reasonable but be realistic in your expectations. It is expanding/contracting WOOD that we are dealing with here.

[Jason Evans]

FWIW - These are the Hammer Specs for the A3-41;

Cutter Head - end to end = .004"
Cutter Head to Outfeed = .028" to .010"
Table flatness = .010"
Jointer Fence = .006"
Planner Thickness L to R +- .006"

I am a fan of setting machines up as accurately as possible/reasonable but be realistic in your expectations. It is expanding/contracting WOOD that we are dealing with here.

The expansion and contraction of wood doesn’t mean much when you are trying to get straight boards for a glue up. Trying to glue convex/concave boards together doesn’t work too well. A precise jointer matters. Especially when dealing with really hard woods.

[Mike Wilkins]

It's possible you got a bad table from the factory. I don't know if Felder tests their machines upon receipt, but they should to prevent issues such as this. I have had my A3-41 for over 5 years and it was spot-on from day one. Fine piece of machinery.

[Robert London]

The Hammer A series is where Felder does a lot of business and volume. You're always going to have some tables that are out of spec and should be replaced under warranty.

But the hey, it's our DIY line and you only paid $7000, so notch down your expectations is a bit insulting. You shouldn't have tables that are .013-.015 out on a $7000 machine.

Post a video on Youtube and you may get a response from Felder.

[Jim Eisenstein]

Spot on, Jason. As I understand the problem, the dip in the infeed table is localized on the operator side of the machine. If so, one
can't argue that it was intentional so as to produce sprung edge joints. If they meant that, they'd have bragged about it being
a "feature" not a defect! If it were me, I'd want a replacement infeed table.

You are also right about Grizzly customer service. I recently had issues with a helical cutterhead on my jointer. The thing was out
of warranty (a few months) but I felt the problem should not have occurred. They agreed and sent me a new cutterhead at no cost.

[Virgil Fenters]

I wouldn’t stand for this at all. Not with a $7000 tool. This is a bunch of malarkey. It doesn’t matter if it works or not. A .013 deviation IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Call them and tell them to fix this.

I just got a grizzly jointer and the infeed was out .011. The said their tolerance was .002 per foot and no more than .006 for the length of the table, and they stood by it. They sent me new tables quickly. The new outfeed was around .001 out and the new infeed was around .005. And this is grizzly, not one of the supposed top tool makers in existence.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure there is much of a choice. I just got a new A3-41 from Felder and it had a small gouge in the outfeed table. I called them and asked for a new table or new machine only to have them tell me that they didn't see a problem since the machine would still work. My sales person then called me to tell me that paying $7000 for a machine with a defect "sucks" but that I was being way too "rigid" in expecting Felder to fix it. I expressed my concern that 1) it's worth less than it should be now because of the gouge and 2) that something had to hit it very hard to take a chunk out of cast iron. I also found that the tables are significantly convex instead of coplanar. In the end they offered me $200 to go away. I'm trying to settle for someone coming out, setting up the machine so it works right, and being the first to turn it on in case something is wrong with the motor. I'll let you know what ends up happening.

The most frustrating part is that before I settled on this tool I watched a video (from Plexus woodworking in Canada) saying how much his A3-41 was out of tolerances. The sales person said that she wasn't sure about Felder - Canada, but Felder USA stands by its products so I shouldn't worry about it. My bad for believing that. Right now, I would strongly recommend against purchasing anything from Felder as once you have the machine, they know you would have to pay another $500 to ship it back to them. So, you're kind of stuck. It's like buying a car online only to have it show up with a dent in the hood and wheels out of alignment, and the manufacturer's response is "Well, it runs doesn't it?"

[Virgil Fenters]

p.s., I am making a video about this whole experience. I'll post it here when done, but I am waiting to see how it all ends before completing the video. Here's to hoping Felder comes through somehow.

[Robert London]

If Felder says their tolerances are .010, and your tables are .015, it’s a pretty simple conversation. Out of spec is out of spec. They should replace the respective table. I could live with a minor surface imperfection as tables are going to get scratched up over time. I’ll concede if they are near flat ~.03 or so. The out-feed and area closest to the cutter head on the in-feed table is most important.

A dip at the far end of the infeed table is least crucial.

If I ever buy a higher end machine 7-10k, I want in writing from the sales rep or dealer what the tolerances are, and what they plan on doing if they are sent out of spec. Then there is no discrepancy. If you won’t back up in writing what’ll you’ll do, then I’m not buying it.

I ended up scaling down and bought Grizzly’s 12” V helical J/P combo. I thought about Hammer and Minimax, but couldn’t convince myself when it came to parting with 7k +.