Cherry Coffee Table Finishing Opinions

[Rick Hickman]

I am approaching the final stages of the cherry coffee table build. I recently wrapped up a metal bed frame, with cherry inserts in the head and footboard and I love how it turned out. I have made matching satin black powder coated legs for the remainder of my furniture projects for my house, and coming into the coffee table I knew the EM6000 + shellac I used for the bed project wasn't going to fly.

I have narrowed the finishing down to 4 options I believe, but I am hoping you folks can weigh in. I do own Bob Flexners book, I have referred to it, to try to help narrow things down, and I am not interested in Polyxoil, Odies, or Rubio Monocoat. I am trying to work on my finishing protocols for my upcoming items (cherry dining bench, and cherry dining table).

1. Arm-R-Seal. I am looking to do a satin finish. I know it takes a little while to fully cure. I have read a few threads on SMC about using this finish and how to apply it, I just don't know how well it will hold up and if it really is my best option.

2.Saman water based flood varnish. I purchased this when I didn't think my EM6000 would be any good because it was shipped to me and lost in transit temporarily during a bad storm this winter. I have never used it. I imagine lacking oil will mean it won't give the same depth as the Arm-R-Seal.

3. A combination finish, such as the purported two stage finishing Mr.Maloof used to use. The respective blends I have found online. I believe it will give the depth in the finish I want visually. I don't know if they will have the resistance to water, heat, and certain chemicals (alcohol:D) and my stinky feet being put up on the table.

4. Finally, I am getting into spraying finishes. I sprayed the EM6000. I was thinking I would throw down a coat of shellac, or some other undercoat to give a bit of depth to the cherry, and then spray on EM7000 with the crosslinker, or some Waterlox. I don't own either of those finishes, I was hoping I could get the EM7000 in Canada from Ardec, but it may have been discontinued.

Ultimately, I want my cake and to eat it too. I want the depth of oil, with the durability of these new film finishes. I am too new to finishing at this standard to know right away, so I am hoping to draw on some of the group's experience please and thank you. I forgot to mention, I would like to rub the finish out to a satin finish, but if that isn't an option so be it.

Thanks to anyone who chimes in! :cool:

Edit - Forgot to share bed.

477118

[Jim Becker]

For sprayed finishes, I mostly use Target Coatings products including EM6000, EM7000, EM2000, EM8000cv. For cherry, I tend to oil and seal with was free shellac and use whichever coating is appropriate for the project. Keep in mind that EM2000 and EM8000cv have a "warmer" color already and the crosslinker can be used with either. The EM8000cv is very durable with the crosslinker, too, once it's fully cured.

[Rick Hickman]

Thanks Jim, it was your past posts that encouraged the use of the EM6000.

You oil, then wax free shellac, then which coating in your experience would you use for a coffee table? It's just myself and my girlfriend, the odd get together but no kids or frequent family potlucks to endure. What oil are you putting down first? Tung oil or BLO?

NEVER tried to build a finish like this before. My dad built a coffee table once, he used poly, but it didn't hold up great and he never rubbed out the finish the way I want to.

Thanks

[John TenEyck]

If you want depth and protection your best options are Arm-R-Seal or Waterlox. Both are proven performers. Both can be rubbed out after curing. If you want to rub out the finish then start with gloss, let it cure, and then rub it out to whatever sheen you like. You'll have the most clarity possible at whatever sheen level you take it to.

John

[Rick Hickman]

If you want depth and protection your best options are Arm-R-Seal or Waterlox. Both are proven performers. Both can be rubbed out after curing. If you want to rub out the finish then start with gloss, let it cure, and then rub it out to whatever sheen you like. You'll have the most clarity possible at whatever sheen level you take it to.

John

Thanks John. Will a coat of shellac under the Arm-R-Seal add any real value? Or not likely? I have gloss Arm-R-Seal, I'm not really set up to spray what is a relatively large table for what I'm used to, but I would be willing to fight through it if shellac then EM8000cv or 2000 was going to give me a better finish.

[John TenEyck]

Don't spray ARS or any other OB finish. The over spray will make a sticky mess of everything it lands on. If you are going to rub out the finish you can apply ARS and Waterlox with a brush, at least for the first 3 or 4 coats until you have a real film. Once you have a thick enough film, let it cure for several days, sand it dead flat, and then apply 3 or 4 wiped on coats. Let that cure at least 2 weeks and then rub it out. If you goof on one of the last few coats, let it cure another couple of days and then sand it flat again, then continue on. You'll get the hang of it soon enough. It doesn't have to be absolutely perfect, just close, if you are going to rub it out at the end. That's how beautiful table tops were done before spray equipment was invented. There are lots of articles in FWW and other places about applying varnish by hand. An article several years ago by Frank Pollard (I think) comes to mind as an excellent reference.

Better finish? I guess that depends upon your definition. Durability wise ARS and Waterlox are about as bulletproof as anything, certainly equal to EM-8000CV, and that's the highest durability WB product I've used. Warmth and clarity favor ARS and Waterlox, too. I see no benefit to using shellac under either of them unless whatever little color shift it imparts appeals to you. My vote is keep it simple.

John

[Jim Becker]

Rick, I use BLO for the oil...it can be just basic BLO...wipe on/wipe off...barrier coat of wax free shellac the next day (although I have used Jeff Jewitt's "same day" technique in the past) and then spray. Really good durability for a "coffee table" can be had with any of the Target finishes with the addition of the crosslinker, but EM8000 is very worthy for such things. EM9300, which is a polyester finish, might be even more durable, but I haven't bothered to try it. The kitchen continent (island) top I finished for a friend/client a few years ago with EM8000 still looks like new and they really do use it.

[Andrew Seemann]

Cherry coffee table with a coat of SealCoat with 3 coats of thinned Minwax Satin Poly(more or less the same thing as ArmRSeal). So far my teenager has not been able to stain it or damage the finish despite 2 years of leaving food, milk spills and the like on it.

477144

[Michael Schuch]

For cherry I would definitely go with an oil based finish. Waterlox is good. I usually use 1/3 oil based satin varnish, 1/3 tung oil or boiled linseed oil and 1/3 turpentine with a few drops of Japan dryer.

I have used spar varnish in the recipe above for some pieces and it leaves a softer more flexible finish than I would want for a table top so I would go for regular oil based varnish.

I have never used the EM6000 or EM7000 finishes so I can't really comment on them vs an oil based finish.

[Phil Mueller]

I would default to John and Jim who have much more experience, but if you go with an oil based finish, one reason I would consider spraying a first coat of shellac is to minimize a potential blotchy appearance.

[Prashun Patel]

Spraying is the easiest - if you have sprayed before. There can be issues putting down a coat of shellac followed by target if the shellac is thick or not fully dried. If you are not comfortable, then the easiest would be to sand to 600 grit and then apply arm r seal or Waterlox original finish (original formula). Both of these are wiping varnishes. Both will give an amber case but Waterlox will be darker.

If you choose a wiping varnish, we can give you advice on application techniques.

I would skip the sealer. Imho Sanding is the best way to address blotch - not eliminate it.

[Robert Engel]

I sealed this one with a tinted shellac (sprayed), then applied ArmRSeal. I despise BLO b/c of the smell and drying time.

477161

[John TenEyck]

I would default to John and Jim who have much more experience, but if you go with an oil based finish, one reason I would consider spraying a first coat of shellac is to minimize a potential blotchy appearance.


I thought a coat of Sealcoat before ARS would help prevent blotching on cherry, too, but it didn't on the test samples I tried it on. And BLO was just awful on cherry.

I would do some testing before committing.

John

[Jeff Roltgen]

Sounds like you have your direction, and glad you're going that rout.
However, in the FWIW department, I used to keep a large sample of cherry ply with 3 types of finish to illustrate how poorly water based finishes react to Cherry, over time.
First was a pre-cat, solvent based lacquer, with expected results. Second was shellac-sealed, followed with Sherwin Williams Chem-Aqua topcoats. Third was straight Chem-Aqua. You could see the deterioration of depth as your eye passed across each line. In a year or so, the straight water-based had gone a dull, lifeless, gray-green tone, more like a semi-opaque plastic laid over the top vs. a finish "in" the wood. Grain depth and coloration severely compromised. The shellac sealed version was right in the middle.

Just something to watch for as you develop a favorite coating for cherry. Most water-borne finishes react very poorly with the tannins in cherry, and slowly degrade over time, as described. Not saying don't use it, just that I would not ever do so again, as today's acceptable results on a sample are not a true picture of that long-term reactiveness.

Yes, I am a strong advocate for more environmentally friendly products (for the planet and me personally), just realize that sometimes they're not the right fit. In fact, this week is the first time in 2 years that I'm applying a solvent based clearcoat (conversion varnish for a bathroom expected to see less than friendly treatment).

Carry on.

Jeff

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks, John. Appreciate that input.

[Rick Hickman]

I would like to thank everyone for commenting. I threw down a test coat of Arm-R-Seal on some scrap I had kicking about after the glue up. I think I am going to go with that finish on this table. I will keep in mind your comments @Jeff Roltgen going forward .

Any key tips that can help me with the application of the Arm-R-Seal? I won't put down a coat of shellac. I still have a couple of steps to go before finish, but I am hoping to start laying coats down come Thursday or Friday.

[John TenEyck]

The simplest approach is to just wipe ARS on with a blue shop paper towel. Three or 4 coats is often enough if you sanded to 180 or 220, might take an extra coat if you stopped at 150. Scuff sand between coats with 320 or 400 grit to knock off any nibs.

If you want a thicker film you can start by applying one to three coats with a brush, enough to give a complete film. Let that cure a few days until you can sand it back dead flat. Then wipe on 2 or 3 thin coats.

The key with any wiping varnish is to work quickly and do not go back over it in hopes of fixing any spot that's just not perfect. That usually just makes it worse. It's better to let it dry as is, sand it flat, and then apply another coat.


John

[Rick Hickman]

Alright perfect. If there are trouble spots, don't go back and touch them but should they flow out on their own?

I have gloss ARS that I would like to rub out at the end to satin, at most semi gloss. I guess I will bring that up when we get there ☺️ thanks John, and everyone else who has chimed in

[Dennis Jarchow]

For sprayed finishes, I mostly use Target Coatings products including EM6000, EM7000, EM2000, EM8000cv. For cherry, I tend to oil and seal with was free shellac and use whichever coating is appropriate for the project. Keep in mind that EM2000 and EM8000cv have a "warmer" color already and the crosslinker can be used with either. The EM8000cv is very durable with the crosslinker, too, once it's fully cured.

Jim, do you have any pictures of cherry you have done with this schedule? Especially with EM8300 or EM2000? Thanks!

[John TenEyck]

Alright perfect. If there are trouble spots, don't go back and touch them but should they flow out on their own?

I have gloss ARS that I would like to rub out at the end to satin, at most semi gloss. I guess I will bring that up when we get there ☺️ thanks John, and everyone else who has chimed in

If you miss a spot it may flow out and create a contiguous film but it may not if the area not covered is too large. But that's OK, just scuff sand and apply another coat. It will blend in. If you have some really bad defects that don't fill in smoothly with the next coat let it cure a couple of days, then sand it flat with your ROS, and resume wiping on coats of finish.

John

[Jim Becker]

Jim, do you have any pictures of cherry you have done with this schedule? Especially with EM8300 or EM2000? Thanks!

Most recent...our former kitchen table top, now my desk

https://sat02pap002files.storage.live.com/y4mjRwuj649rw7C34p9TNv7A1TBlZFIkFKkRDiN_gVVl9co4LT QwsdTgROnbWCYHZFxLtzlH3xgUpyhCSlzZAr4DI-ydv_X2d1HpkWGlAngvgbyC6EWlb1bL_IAyIjCt6dZpOBB1eO2S imHRHiupk0ykEfB9B2VL85Fs8usZXmaFO9N23PBw9kHZ-8Ja_oIaYLt?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

2007 - one of a pair of vanities in the master bath at our old property

https://bn02pap001files.storage.live.com/y4mgDL5JAtoc1KkEtqcE37Q403CPxH58KxrqlTasN5RVQtz10t voLlOq1ym1WhA2BLKvkuuLOUXodqkLye8tL6DjIgnS_OvUWxlL-93ZcNNpDlV2ap8hoRQBQl9SKDEhSt2VKftorPGlqkTud77nLes k6qbE-kyMQb_q9KxAhq6iwjct2_2-Uk8d6e4MTkj3bmQ?width=399&height=600&cropmode=none

[Holmes Anderson]

I sealed this one with a tinted shellac (sprayed), then applied ArmRSeal. I despise BLO b/c of the smell and drying time.

477161


Which technique did you use to apply the ArmRSeal and what abrasives were used to complete the finish?

[Prashun Patel]

Keep this in mind: You are not so much laying down finish as you do with a brush. You are wiping the surface broadly and lightly. On a table top, I like to dip a whole blue towel sheet into a bowl of the wiping varnish, squeeze it gently out so it is saturated but not dripping. Then unfold it and wipe on broad, overlapping, quick figure eights. Don’t go with the grain. Don’t go back over spots, and don’t try to pop bubbles. If you move quickly enough? Streaks and bubbles will rectify themselves.

[Dennis Jarchow]

Jim, thanks. Those look great!

[Rick Hickman]

It's surface prep time. I was waylaid with some health issues, but am back to building.

- I've sanded the table to 220, I have to scrape some tear-out, do I need to go any higher than 220?

- When I apply the first coats of ARS with a brush, just wipe in long strokes, with minimal overlap? How long between coats?

- Once the brushing layers are complete, and they have cured for 5-7 days lets say, I knock it back with 4-600 grit I assume then wipe on 3-4 coats, with how much time in between?

- Can the table see light use after the brush coats? My girlfriend is getting a little impatient but I am sure she will appreciate the finish either way :D

[Rick Hickman]

I'm not sure where my first response went, and it's a little upsetting because I had a few key questions (in my own mind lol); regardless, after some time away from the shop, I am back to working on the table, and have a few questions.

- What grit do I take the Cherry to before hitting it with the ARS? I have taken it to 220, and can go higher if necessary

- Brushing on the first few coats of ARS, I assume don't overlap them, long brush strokes? How long do I wait in between coats (brushed, and wipe on)? Do I knock the brushed layers down between coats? or just the wipe on?

- While I let the brushed on coats dry, if it has passed the fingernail-test, can I use the table lightly, before I wipe on the final coats that will be rubbed out?

Thanks everyone!

Edit; somehow I was able to interject a response at post #7 I believe.. don't know how to remove it. Hopefully this post is in the right order of the thread!

[Prashun Patel]

Rick-
I thought about replying, but brushing ARS just isn't my chosen method.

Here's how I'd do it if I were you:

Sand to 600.
Wipe on ARS, 2 coats a day. One first thing in the morning, one sometime after work.
After 3 coats, sand lightly with 600. Repeat.

After 15 years, I see no reason to brush any more unless you enjoy the experience. Especially if you want a low build finish like Jim has shown, brushing is a waste of time.

[mark mcfarlane]

I am a frequent ARS user, it's my go to finish.

I typically sand to 150 and slop on the first ARS coat heavy using a foam brush. Contrary to good finishing principles, I go back and re-brush the really wet parts that aren't soaked in within 15 minutes or so, basically re-spreading the finish into dryer/thinner areas. It's never been a problem for me on the base coat doing this re-brush and I tend to get all the grain filled on the first coat. Wait a day, lightly sand to 320, then the wipe-on coats start, with a "320 hand sand - vacuum - air blower - tack cloth" between coats.

I don't think you need to over think the application of ARS, it seems to work well no matter how it is applied, which I suspect is why so many people love it.

Regarding ARS over cherry, it's a little too light for my taste. A coat or two of garnet shellac under the ARS looks pretty awesome, although I am surprised how fast the cherry is darkening in my living room.

Ask me in 5 years if the garnet shellac was a good idea.

480531

I made some QSWO end tables coated in just ARS about 5 years ago. Still looking like new. Granted, a coffee table will get more abuse.

[Rick Hickman]

I am a frequent ARS user, it's my go to finish.

I typically sand to 150 and slop on the first ARS coat heavy using a foam brush. Contrary to good finishing principles, I go back and re-brush the really wet parts that aren't soaked in within 15 minutes or so, basically re-spreading the finish into dryer/thinner areas. It's never been a problem for me on the base coat doing this re-brush and I tend to get all the grain filled on the first coat. Wait a day, lightly sand to 320, then the wipe-on coats start, with a "320 hand sand - vacuum - air blower - tack cloth" between coats.

I don't think you need to over think the application of ARS, it seems to work well no matter how it is applied, which I suspect is why so many people love it.

Regarding ARS over cherry, it's a little too light for my taste. A coat or two of garnet shellac under the ARS looks pretty awesome, although I am surprised how fast the cherry is darkening in my living room.

Ask me in 5 years if the garnet shellac was a good idea.

480531

I made some QSWO end tables coated in just ARS about 5 years ago. Still looking like new. Granted, a coffee table will get more abuse.

Do you rub out the ARS? I really want satin, I don't want the gloss that I purchased. How long between the wipe-on coats? Love how that Cherry looks, my goodness!


Rick-
I thought about replying, but brushing ARS just isn't my chosen method.

Here's how I'd do it if I were you:

Sand to 600.
Wipe on ARS, 2 coats a day. One first thing in the morning, one sometime after work.
After 3 coats, sand lightly with 600. Repeat.

After 15 years, I see no reason to brush any more unless you enjoy the experience. Especially if you want a low build finish like Jim has shown, brushing is a waste of time.

Do you rub out the finish? I don't really care about brushing, I don't need the experience :D. I'm curious how long to wait before I can use it lightly?

[Prashun Patel]

You can rub out. Many do. I think a better, easier finish is had by just buying the satin sheen. You can put satin over gloss, so you would only need to buy a small amount additionally.

Ymmv, but I would wait a week before using it lightly, and a month before using it heavily. These are rough guidelines. Dig a fingernail into an inconspicuous area . If it’s soft, use kid gloves a little longer.

[mark mcfarlane]

I've never rubbed out my ARS. For the project above and some others I did the really wet base coat and the first wipe-on coat with Semi-gloss because I had a gallon handy, then wiped on satin ARS for the last 2-3 coats.

I've never done a comparison using gloss up until the final coat or two. Some day maybe I'll test that, maybe...

[Alan Lightstone]

Keep this in mind: You are not so much laying down finish as you do with a brush. You are wiping the surface broadly and lightly. On a table top, I like to dip a whole blue towel sheet into a bowl of the wiping varnish, squeeze it gently out so it is saturated but not dripping. Then unfold it and wipe on broad, overlapping, quick figure eights. Don’t go with the grain. Don’t go back over spots, and don’t try to pop bubbles. If you move quickly enough? Streaks and bubbles will rectify themselves.
In my experience of screwing up enough finishes until I learned, this is phenomenally good advice.

Also, be very careful when rubbing out the finish. Easy to burn through a thin top coat and have to start again. Go easy. Less is more for that.

[John TenEyck]

Do you rub out the ARS? I really want satin, I don't want the gloss that I purchased. How long between the wipe-on coats? Love how that Cherry looks, my goodness!



Do you rub out the finish? I don't really care about brushing, I don't need the experience :D. I'm curious how long to wait before I can use it lightly?

The key to applying any OB film finish is to apply all the coats so that they behave like a single coat. To do that you cannot wait until the prior coat is cured. You have to apply each coat after the prior coat is just hard enough to scuff sand. One guy on another forum used to use what he called the pinky test. If you can touch it with your pinky and the finish doesn't stick then it's hard enough to apply the next coat. That might be a bit extreme but I never forgot his advice. I wait until I can scuff sand it w/o it sticky to my sand paper.

Why? Because if all the coats behave like a single coat then you won't get witness lines if you happen to cut through a layer when you rub it out.

IMO there is no advantage to sanding finer than necessary to eliminate visual sandpaper marks. This has been proven time and again in comparative studies, though some still insist finer grits or a hand planed surface will look better. To each their own. To my eyes, they look the same under a film finish. For most projects I stop at 150 grit, for woods that still show scratch marks I go up to 220. The only time I've ever gone higher is when using a water based dye that would could grain raising.


I have rubbed out gloss ARS a few times. The advantage of rubbing out gloss rather than using satin is there will be no streaks or nibs when you are done, and it will be silky, silky smooth. Applying satin w/o getting streaks is possible but not always very easy, at least for me. That said, I only rub out something like a table top, a nice flat surface. I'd never do it on something with inside corners or other details.

Let the last coat of finish cure for at least 7 to 10 days first. If you want satin, use steel wool with paste wax as a lubricant, or an equivalent synthetic pad and soapy water. Unfold the steel wool and refold it into a flat rectangle that fits under a hard felt or rubber sanding block. Rub with the grain and work from one end to the other. Wipe off every few minutes to check your progress.

John

[Rick Hickman]

Thank you everyone for the feedback. @Prashun Patel I have been using a saturated blue shop towel, resisting the urge to go back over anything! @John TenEyck I will rub with steel wool 2 weeks after my final coat.

I am 2 coats in, between coat 1 (satin, didn't have gloss on hand), and coat 2 (gloss, picked up yesterday at LV), I sanded very lightly with 400 grit wrapped around 1/8" thick angle iron with the weight of the off cut being the downward pressure on my table top. I coated afterwards with the gloss coat and it has been left to dry overnight. Plan looks like this for my remaining coats;

-Monday; sand flat coat #2, apply coat #3
- Tuesday; sand flat coat #3, apply coat #4 and let this set for 2-3 days as per a comment previously in this thread
- Thursday or Friday; sand coat #4 flat that has set for 2-3 days. Wipe on coat #5
- Wipe on coat #6 & 7 over the following 2 days (Friday + Saturday, or Saturday + Sunday)
- Rub out with synthetic pad and paste wax in a few weeks; likely around July 16th

Table looks good so far. I'm excited about how this is progressing. I am glad I didn't put dyed shellac beneath the ARS. Looked wonderful in the shared photos here, but I am content with the color I have now. For the final 3 coats in a row, same procedure, just saturated blue towel?

Thanks again everyone for the input. I think it's going to look great!
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