Jointing frustration

[Jason Buresh]

Tonight while trying to joint the edges of some 8/4 poplar no matter what I did the board fought me. It was one of the most frustrating moments I've ever had in the shop.

I am trying to make a chair seat. I have never used lumber this thick, and I just fought and fought and fought with it. I tried my no 8, no 7, 5-1/2, no 5. I would either get gaps or a twist etc. I checked often with a square and I was doing ok there.

One thing I did change is I did not prep a face first like I normally do. I was going to try and plane the edges first and the flatten and smooth the faces once the seat was made.

After walking away and thinking things over I think this may be my issue. Is not prepping a face first screwing everything up? After thinking about it I thinking it may be giving me bad feedback on the square.

I have had success jointing edges in the past with other lumber. But for some reason tonight the stars weren't aligned.

Anyone have any tips for thicker lumber? Any other ideas?

[Luke Dupont]

If you didn't prep the face, there may have been twist in the board that was screwing you up no matter what you did. If you kept planing the board square to its face (checking with a square) and the face wasn't flat and free of twist, it'll never match up with a piece that is actually flat and free of twist.

[Scott Winners]

Poplar is usually fairly obedient, though I can see tearout when jointing on reversing grain.

Were you starting with 8/4 roughsawn? Is your rough stock visibly straight, just rough sawn?

I would think of poplar as an excellent introduction to 8/4 hardwoods. How thick are your shavings and what are the nominal dimensions of your work piece?

[Scott Clausen]

I think you would need to flatten at least two sides to get it jointed. I would just go ahead and get it S4S so you have some reference points.

[les winter]

You would experience the same problem at a power jointer. Two flat faces are required.

[James Pallas]

Forget the square. Get your board set up roughly squared on your bench on in the face vice. Get out your winding sticks and straight edge. Plane a flat edge. That edge is now your reference surface for all other work.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

Forget the square. Get your board set up roughly squared on your bench on in the face vice. Get out your winding sticks and straight edge. Plane a flat edge. That edge is now your reference surface for all other work.
Jim


Better to do the face first before the edge, and make the edge conform to that, as it's very hard to make a 6 inch surface confirm to a 3/4 inch surface if the angle is slightly out.

Unless they're all the same width, then it doesn't matter...

[James Pallas]

Better to do the face first before the edge, and make the edge conform to that, as it's very hard to make a 6 inch surface confirm to a 3/4 inch surface if the angle is slightly out.

Unless they're all the same width, then it doesn't matter...
The OP said he was building up a chair seat. Sometimes it is easier to do a glue up first. If you are going to take an adz to it you don’t need to plane the face. All you need is glue surfaces. If using machines it’s fine. Hand planing is different.
Jim

[Ron Bontz]

I would have to 2nd having the wider surface face flat first. In your case the underside of the chair bottom pieces. Then joint the glue edges square to the flat. Once you think you have the chair bottom face flat, lay it on a known flat surface to check for twist or wobble. Glue together, re flatten bottom if necessary and proceed with the rest of the process.
Best wishes

[Daniel Culotta]

When I glue-up before flattening faces, the square stays stowed. A straight edge and winding sticks on the edge are all you need to focus on. I do get the edge square-ish by eye to the rough face, and then use winding sticks on the edge to get any twist out, and a straight edge to remove cup or bow. Basically, treat the edge like a mini face.

Then, as you’re planning, once the glue is dry you flatten the whole panel face, get the other parallel, then lay out your seat pattern etc.

Is this (straight edge + winding sticks on the edge) what you were already trying that wasn’t working?

[Andrew Hughes]

I like to preach a jointed edge is a flat face to a square edge. That completes a reference edge and is marked before I move on.
when I have smallish boards that need a reference edge I lay the flat face on my bench and shoot the long edge square to the face. Then I don’t need to do the balancing act.
Good Luck

[chris carter]

jointing an edge when the face is rough is a pain because squares are worthless. You kind of have to joint from muscle memory and have faith, or you have to use winding sticks which is super slow. I usually find that it's just faster to flatten the face. It doesn't need to be "show" flat, just "working" flat.

[Jason Buresh]

It sounds like my issue is the lack of prepping a face. I will try prepping the under sides of the seat and then try jointing again.

My thought process was it would be easier to plane the faces after they were glued than to try and make sure they are exactly coplanar in glue up. But I guess even if there is a little imperfection in glue up that is easily cleaned up too.

Live and learn I guess

[Warren Mickley]

I have routinely jointed and glued boards without first flattening any faces for more than 40 years. It is the historical method and it is the efficient method.

The mistake you made was to use a square to assess wind rather than winding sticks. Even if you had planed a face flat before jointing the edge, a square is not as accurate as winding sticks for assessing wind.

[Mike Cornwall]

When jointing an edge without preparing a reference face, what precaution is taken to ensure the jointed panel isn’t so far out of flat that I lose a ton of thickness in facing it?
Thanks in advance, Mike

[Eric Rathhaus]

Warren - do you only use jointer the edge first when you're gluing up panels or do you always joint the edge first before moving to the face?

[James Pallas]

I’m not sure how Warren will answer. Here is how I approach it. I believe this is regularly done. I usually cut the pieces to rough length. I put them in the vice, take a look at it with winding sticks and straight edge. Plane the edge flat using a plane sized to the work. Set it aside and do the same to your next piece. Now put your first piece back in the vice. Balance your second piece on top and check for fit of the joint. Mark the pieces here so you will know what goes where. Lay a straight edge on the side of your pieces to give you a rough check for flat. If it’s out of flat too much for you go back to your plane. You can use your lateral adjuster here if you wish. When you have what you like turn the second piece over on your flat bench, rinse and repeat for the next piece or pieces as you go. I don’t worry much about the edges of a piece being parallel. For a chair seat I would accept maybe 1/2” before I start correcting.
Glue and clamp, that’s it. The objectives to me are, I only have to plane the flat surfaces once, I don’t have to parallel the edges so I only have to make the long rips once maybe not at all if the finished panel is not square.
Jim

[Luke Dupont]

I have routinely jointed and glued boards without first flattening any faces for more than 40 years. It is the historical method and it is the efficient method.

The mistake you made was to use a square to assess wind rather than winding sticks. Even if you had planed a face flat before jointing the edge, a square is not as accurate as winding sticks for assessing wind.

I learned something new today!

Going to try this the next time I need to edge glue up a wider piece.

[steven c newman]

When jointing an edge..I do NOT grab the front knob of the plane....I hook my left thumb over the side of the plane...with the fingers curled under the plane. Knuckles will reference off the face of the board...

Getting ready to joint 4 planks....to make a table top....planks are 33" long. I do have a 3' long Tinner's Ruler (Luftkin) as a straightedge.....thinking about just laying a 4' level down on the edge...and check for high spots.

One check I use, after the first board is jointed, and I'm working on the second one......lay the 1st edge on the next edge, stand back and look for any gaps. If the two boards can sit there, without any support, I think I am doing good....when I can get 4 boards to stack up, and stay stacked up without any help, or braces...time to glue them up...before the weather should happen to change....

477087
stack 2 boards together..
477088
They are just sitting there...slight gap in the middle (spring joint?)
477089
Which do you prefer..

[Warren Mickley]

Warren - do you only use jointer the edge first when you're gluing up panels or do you always joint the edge first before moving to the face?
Only when gluing up panels. For truing a board or a glued panel we do a face first because it is easier to match an edge to a face.

James Pallas gave a good outline. Mike asked about gluing the two boards so crookedly that it would be difficult to flatten the whole later. As James mentioned, we lay one board atop the other in the vise and roughly check with straightedge. The straightedge won’t sit quite flat because things are still rough. Keep in mind that since we have not flattened individual boards, there is more material to play with.

[Tom Trees]

It's the same for any other surface if you use the bench for reference
i.e just plane high spots only and don't stop until the gaps are gone inbetween reference.
Take a full length shaving up through the centre and/or stop shaving afterwards.
Look up David Charlesworth if you want to make life easy for yourself.


All the best
Tom

477110

[Jack Dover]

I would either get gaps or a twist etc. I checked often with a square and I was doing ok there.

Did you check for squareness at multiple points along the length though?


Is not prepping a face first screwing everything up?

Yup, it does screw everything up. A true face is a must. Imagine a long square rod made from rubber. Now imagine it being slightly twisted around longitudinal axis. At any arbitrary point a square will tell you a face is perpendicular to an edge, however, your eyes will tell you the rod is not true and square. Same happens when you reference from a face that wasn't trued.



Any other ideas?

Just stick to the protocol. It was worked out for a reason and if there would be anything that could have been simplified - it wouldn't be a part of the protocol.

[Derek Cohen]

If all you want to do is joint the edge, and the faces are wonky, then clamp the board firmly on the bench top (so that it cannot move). Arrange it so that the edge is somewhat vertical to the bench. Then shoot the edge with a jointer plane, using the bench top as the shooting board.

Something like this, where I was jointing the mating edges of two thin bookmatched panels ….

https://i.postimg.cc/pV1JzrVK/One-Step-Back-html-m15577872.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

If all you want to do is joint the edge, and the faces are wonky, then clamp the board firmly on the bench top (so that it cannot move). Arrange it so that the edge is somewhat vertical to the bench. Then shoot the edge with a jointer plane, using the bench top as the shooting board.

Something like this, where I was jointing the mating edges of two thin bookmatched panels ….

https://i.postimg.cc/pV1JzrVK/One-Step-Back-html-m15577872.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek


This is the standard way of shooting edges in Japan, and is really quick and efficient.

I always wondered why we don't see more of it in Western woodworking. It works just as well with Western planes.

About the only down side is that it requires the bench be longer than the edge of the work.

[Tom Trees]

About the only down side is that it requires the bench be longer than the edge of the work.

The bench for some is one of, if not the most important tool in the workshop.
I cannot see why one would choose to have a bench shorter than the work they wish to do, unless they wern't using hand planes.
This bench (Andrew Hunter's) looks to be a very good solution should one want space and a bench.
"Timestamped" for your convenience
https://youtu.be/e9HvZ78-TJ0?t=282

ps Using western planes rather than kanna's or whatever, i.e planing into the wall,
Should there be a solid pillar or wall to keep things put, it would effectively shorten the bench for planing tasks, especially for a longer plane,
To counter this, one could use say a trad saw horse or what have you with some stacked stock to act as a stop for the beams, enabling one to
use a longer plane and not knock it into the wall/pillar etc.

Tom

[Kevin Jenness]

If you are gluing up, put the roughly flattened faces together in the vice and plane both mating edges at once. Any deviation from 90* will be canceled out.

[Warren Mickley]

Planing an edge with the side of the plane on the bench looks slow and clumsy to me.

You can't even put winding sticks on the edge you ar working on.

[Tom Trees]

Not that I can do much of that with my bench being a lab counter top, horrible stinking toxic stuff if abraded like what a cast plane would do,
but I do use a shooting board! :)
I've got a vintage 5 1/2 on the board, with usual non square sides,
and a box or two of dense timber offcuts, say anything as thick as a deck of cards always at hand for plugging my reclaimed stock.

I shoot these accurate pieces long grain to get the iron parallel, rather than dulling the iron shooting end grain.
I'd imagine it would work very well on the bench too.

Obviously specifically for narrow stock though, and not something which could easily stand on edge by itself, like stock for a chair seat in this instance.

Tom

[Luke Dupont]

Planing an edge with the side of the plane on the bench looks slow and clumsy to me.

You can't even put winding sticks on the edge you ar working on.


Your bench top, provided it's free of twist, works like a giant shooting board. The plane registers square and will take any twist out automatically. No need for winding sticks.

[Warren Mickley]

Your bench top, provided it's free of twist, works like a giant shooting board. The plane registers square and will take any twist out automatically. No need for winding sticks.

You are depending on the flatness of the bench top, the flatness of the plane side and the squareness of the plane. and if you clamp a board that is not flat it distorts. Lots of sources for error and what we call compounding errors.

The winding sticks are a direct measurement and therefore offer much better precision.

In addition, when you are making a joint in a vise, you can set the first board you jointed atop the second and easily see how well they mate.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are gluing up, put the roughly flattened faces together in the vice and plane both mating edges at once. Any deviation from 90* will be canceled out.

Besides the OP's mention of the stock being 8/4 popular (how many of us have planes to work two pieces held together of this width?) this method always sounds a bit off to me.

Yes, side to side angular deviations are canceled.

Any vertical deviations are multiplied.

On Shooting Boards

Here is a thread, over a decade old, that includes one long edge shooting board > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?92355

A lot of old images in woodworking publications show a plane being used with a bench hook for shooting work. The bench top is the ramp.

jtk

[Kevin Jenness]

Any vertical deviations are multiplied.
jtk

What does that mean? If the faces are flat and clamped together the edges will be brought in plane within reason. One pass on each 8/4 piece after they are planed together should make an acceptable joint.

[Tom Trees]

Material deflection may play a part if this 2" stock for the chair seat is being laminated with more than just a few pieces.

[Warren Mickley]

If you plane the two pieces to be joined at the same time as you suggest and you plane them both .002 hollow, for example, then when you put them together the gap is doubled to .004.

[Jim Koepke]

Any vertical deviations are multiplied.
jtk


What does that mean? If the faces are flat and clamped together the edges will be brought in plane within reason. One pass on each 8/4 piece after they are planed together should make an acceptable joint.

Two faces of 8/4 stock clamped together becomes about 4" wide. That makes it difficult to fully engage both pieces in a single pass of a plane.

Taking into account all possibilities that may be involved (after all, some feel a #4 is the only plane one needs) an inexperienced person might plane both pieces to be bowed, a not uncommon occurrence even with a longer plane.

Warren points out what can happen with a hollow spot in the middle.

[QUOTE=Warren Mickley;3188875]If you plane the two pieces to be joined at the same time as you suggest and you plane them both .002 hollow, for example, then when you put them together the gap is doubled to .004.[/QUOTE

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

If the boards are generally flat, you could make a jointing sled to use a fine rip blade on a table saw I suppose. But this always get back to "I can flatten the face faster than I could do all of that". If they can hold a similar vertical in the vise chop (Not sure how rough these are)winding sticks and a strait edge should work well. I guess I am a little OCD about this. I want to see that gap where jointed fully to make sure there is no light or places a feeler gauge can slide in. In my world it means a solid 90 degree corner at that point, just me not telling anyone how to process wood.

[steven c newman]

Was taught, when doing a panel...to lay out all the boards as to where they will be in the panel.....make a mark across to keep them in order...then "fold" them up like a paper map...Clamp them together...then joint the edges....both sides of the "sammich"....then un-fold and check for gaps.....no gaps? Glue it up...

Let the plane tell you when you are done....one shaving the length of the boards...or, in the case of a panel....2-3-4 shavings.....which is why a Stanley No. 8 was as wide as it was...2-5/8"....

Also...it helps IF the grain in all the boards is running the same direction...

[Derek Cohen]

You are depending on the flatness of the bench top, the flatness of the plane side and the squareness of the plane. and if you clamp a board that is not flat it distorts. Lots of sources for error and what we call compounding errors.
…..

Of course it can depend on the flatness of a bench. You do keep your bench flat, don’t you?

If your bench is not flat, then lay a sheet of MDF across the surface to create a flat top for this purpose.

NOTE: this is just one of several ways to do the same task. There is a “best and only method”. Add all the methods you can to your armoury. Use the most appropriate one when the time comes.

Regards from Perth

Derek. (see my earlier post in this thread if confused what this method is about)

[Luke Dupont]

Was taught, when doing a panel...to lay out all the boards as to where they will be in the panel.....make a mark across to keep them in order...then "fold" them up like a paper map...Clamp them together...then joint the edges....both sides of the "sammich"....then un-fold and check for gaps.....no gaps? Glue it up...

Let the plane tell you when you are done....one shaving the length of the boards...or, in the case of a panel....2-3-4 shavings.....which is why a Stanley No. 8 was as wide as it was...2-5/8"....

Also...it helps IF the grain in all the boards is running the same direction...


Now that method sounds really nice and efficient! Especially if you have a bunch of narrow pieces to joint. I'm going to try this next time...

[James Pallas]

The original post was about 2” material for a seat. We have gone the gauntlet from a to z. Thin panels and such. If you have a given amount of material and need to finish out at a certain thickness.You have one piece with a flaw that will not finish out at that thickness but may be incorporated as an inside piece. If you flatten that piece and it’s under your done. If you glue up and try to incorporate that flaw into the bottom of the piece or where you are going to scoop out the seat you have saved your project. One process does not fit all. It’s a good idea to learn to make glue joints when you don’t have absolutely flat and square perfect situations.
Jim

[Warren Mickley]

You completely missed the point of my post, Derek. The use of winding sticks is a direct measurement of wind in the edge. Your method is clumsy because it relies on a chain of measurements and error accumulates along the chain.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, I know how to use winding sticks.

No doubt you can take a warped, rough and unevenly thick plank of wood and plane the top coplanar and square to itself. This is not easy for most, particularly when there are an infinite number of possible angles that a novice can tilt a plane and create a mess. While it is possible to correct this, it can take time - a chain of a different kind. No harm in that if you are just practicing.

Tell the Japanese they got it all wrong. It is just another approach.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Luke Dupont]

Well, Warren does bring up valid points about the advantages of jointing in the vise, and potential sources of error in regards to shooting with the plane on its side.
Likewise, Derek and I brought up real advantages with regards to shooting sideways.

I never quite trust jigs myself, and tend to not use them so much, for precisely the examples Warren gave, so I get his point. It's surprisingly easy to introduce error with any jig. So even if I do use a shooting board of any variety, I check the work to make sure something odd didn't occur. And I do generally gravitate towards the free hand method, but that's preference more than anything.

I do, and will probably continue to do both. Derek's example of jointing thin stock on the benchtop is just one example of where the method in question really shines. Another example being when you don't have an apron or face vise. Just more tools for the toolbox.

[Derek Cohen]

The original post was about 2” material for a seat. We have gone the gauntlet from a to z. Thin panels and such. If you have a given amount of material and need to finish out at a certain thickness.You have one piece with a flaw that will not finish out at that thickness but may be incorporated as an inside piece. If you flatten that piece and it’s under your done. If you glue up and try to incorporate that flaw into the bottom of the piece or where you are going to scoop out the seat you have saved your project. One process does not fit all. It’s a good idea to learn to make glue joints when you don’t have absolutely flat and square perfect situations.
Jim

Actually Jim, personally, I would do as Warren suggested since the boards are fairly short. I just wanted to make the point that there are many ways to joint uneven boards, and we must not assume one way fits all. Using a bench top is especially useful when the boards are long.

And Warren, I apologise if I come on strong with you. It is just that you can be so dogmatic that there is just one way.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Actually Jim, personally, I would do as Warren suggested since the boards are fairly short. I just wanted to make the point that there are many ways to joint uneven boards, and we must not assume one way fits all. Using a bench top is especially useful when the boards are long.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek, Warren did post that when doing boards or panels it’s better to do face first. In using the bench and clamping rough boards to it you can get a good edge referenced to the bench. When you do your second board it will be referenced to the bench. When you put one on top of the other they won’t necessarily be flat as they can be to each other. In desiring to save some types of figure I have made the matching joint at steep angles to save the figure. Hard to shoot on the bench.
Jim

[Jason Buresh]

So I just recently got back from a trip and finally had a little time in the shop. I put away the square and worked each face with a straight edge and winding sticks. I now have a good joint.

I was always used to checking my work often, but I guess I will chalk this up as a learning experience that how you check your work is equally important. Just because you are using a square doesn't mean you are making it better. I became so used to doing a face first and checking with winding sticks and a straight edge and then using a square for edges that after I think about what I was doing wrong it was painfully obvious.

[Tom Bender]

Hi Jason
Thanks to your mistake, many of us have benefited from giving this a good think thru.