8" Oliver Jointer

[Mark Rios]

Can anyone tell me about this jointer. It's a name that you "big iron" folks have used and it jumped out at me. Is this a good price? What and how much would it take to put it into brand new "working"( as opposed to restoring) condition, i.e. bearings?, motor?, cutterhead? (straight knife, spiral, or shelix), anythng else?. Would I need to worry about the tables being or staying flat? Thanks for any info and buying advice.

Edit: I am SUCH a bonehead!!! :D I forgot to include the link. Ok, here it is:

http://www.craigslist.org/nby/tls/126196507.html

Sorry 'bout that. Thanks for telling me and for your patience.

[Bill Simmeth]

Hi Mark,

Do you have a link to the machine you're considering (or a description and asking price)?

[Bill Simmeth]

Well, without knowing what you're looking at exactly and assuming we're talking "old Oliver", the most common model in the 8" size was the 144. It looks like this one:
29992
They are very nice machines, very solid and well-built. If it's an older unit with a serial number lower than say, 30,000, the main thing you'll want to check is the cutterhead. Very early models may have a "clamshell" style head. These are potentially dangerous if not properly maintained. Finding one of these on a 144 would be rare though, as the 144 was introduced about the time Oliver scrapped the clamshell.

As for bearings, unless the machine is really old, sat outside or was otherwise abused, chances are the bearings will be fine. On the motor, the 144 was offered direct-drive, coupled-drive or belted. The first would be somewhat problematic to re-motor, the other two not a problem. Still, with a little work, the direct-drive version could be converted to belt drive. Check the tables to be sure they're flat which most likely they are. If they are flat, no need to worry about that changing. You may need to shim the beds to align, but that's par for most any old wedge-bed.

There was an Oliver 9" jointer, the 166-A, which looked similar to this:
29993
The 9" version, denoted by the "-A" is relatively rare. You mostly see the larger (12+) sizes in the 166 model. A classic for sure, however, this style can be a bear to tune, given the twin pedestal base design. Ask Dev.

There was also a 133 model benchtop jointer offered in 4" and 6" sizes and rumors are that an 8" version appeared for a while, but I can not confirm that. It would look like this:
29994

Post what you know about the one you're considering to discuss further.

Good luck,

[Alan Turner]

Bill
An Oliver Benchtop???? What a hoot. Who'd a thunk.

[Bill Simmeth]

An Oliver Benchtop???? What a hoot. Who'd a thunk."Oliver Benchtop" does seem to be an oxymoron, doesn't it? However, there was also the #193 benchtop saw complete with 7" blade.

[Bill Simmeth]

I forgot to include the link. Ok, here it is:
http://www.craigslist.org/nby/tls/126196507.html
Ah, now we can see it! Yup, that's a model 144. The serial nbr dates it to 1958. It looks complete with the stock guard and fence. I'd say it is priced at the top end of the price I'd expect. Ask him what the "not perfect" part means and if he'll budge on the price. In the end, though, at or near this price, it really depends on what you'd prefer -- new, shiney and imported or good old American iron. I can tell you that unless there are some hidden warts, this should last your lifetime.

Good luck,

[Roy Wall]

I like the way the cutterhead guard is designed on these jointers.

Nowadays, the U.S. style is the basic "porkchop" that pivots on the edge of the infeed table

The current "european type" blade guards are basically like these old iron styles (with a pivot arm system from the outfeed side) - and a narrower blade cover that "folds" to appropriate width.

These are great old machines!

I am constantly amazed about the information you OWW'ers posess! Awesome!!:)

[John Hemenway]

Mark, thanks for the link. It's in my home town. I think I'll have to snap that puppy up! No, I'm just kidding.

I would be willing to go take a look at it for you if you want an independent view of it. If you are interested and the seller is willing, pm me.

[Dev Emch]

Ah, now we can see it! Yup, that's a model 144. The serial nbr dates it to 1958. It looks complete with the stock guard and fence. I'd say it is priced at the top end of the price I'd expect. Ask him what the "not perfect" part means and if he'll budge on the price. In the end, though, at or near this price, it really depends on what you'd prefer -- new, shiney and imported or good old American iron. I can tell you that unless there are some hidden warts, this should last your lifetime.

Good luck,

Yup, Dat Bee a 144 red eagle. Paint is strange but that is a darn nice 8 inch wedge bed jointer. I agree with all Bill has said about it also. Work the deal and deal the work. If you can make this one fly, you will have a jointer that will outlast you unless you get a hankerin for a real jointer. Something capable of arresting say an F-14 on final approach! Mind you, I have spoken to a guy who has sold custom blade to a porter 300 owner. These blades were 42 inches wide. Understand that this example is the OWWM version of finding T-Rex's scat pile in the woods. Can you imagine what a 42 inch jointer would even look like?

But find out what the seller means by NOT PERFECT, etc. Make sure you check for cracked castings also. If the defect is unclear, post it so we can discuss it and see if this jointer is worth scarfing up or walking away from.

Good Luck....

[Dev Emch]

I like the way the cutterhead guard is designed on these jointers.

Nowadays, the U.S. style is the basic "porkchop" that pivots on the edge of the infeed table

The current "european type" blade guards are basically like these old iron styles (with a pivot arm system from the outfeed side) - and a narrower blade cover that "folds" to appropriate width.

These are great old machines!

I am constantly amazed about the information you OWW'ers posess! Awesome!!:)

Roy, I am a bit confused. Many european machines are being forced to use the newer Suva-matic guards. These are standard on many machines sold in europe. But the US does not require these so when the machines are imported to this country, they often get a cheaper get by guard. Martin in north carolina sells the suvamatic and for a 24 inch machine, that guard is about $900 dollars.

The suva matic is about 4 to 5 or inches wide and moves in and out in a line of motion that is perpendicular to the fence of the jointer. The guard is articulated in a few places and each section can actually fold downwards. They are made from gold anodized aluminum and are very effective and very clean in the way they work. Many times, you can opt for the suva guard if you ask for it on american sold machines. Dealers like martin, hofmann, felder, robland, knapp, etc. should all have access to it.

[Mark Rios]

Mark, thanks for the link. It's in my home town. I think I'll have to snap that puppy up! No, I'm just kidding.

I would be willing to go take a look at it for you if you want an independent view of it. If you are interested and the seller is willing, pm me.


John, your offer is very kind and I will take you up on it. I'll PM you when I can talk, tomorrow sometime, and maybe exchange phone numbers(?) and give you his. He said that you coming over would be great.

But thats not all he said............

He also told me that they (he and ?) used to clean out and auction high school woodshops and now they just buy the stuff and resell it. This school is in Oakland and they are in the process of removing the equipment and other stuff. I didn't get the idea that he was a woodworker but he seemed to know the value of what they had from selling so much of it.

AND...........he says that they also have a BIG Oliver jointer, a 24" Powermatic planer, a BIG!!! Yates bandsaw, and some other machine made by Whitney. I'm kicking my self right now (thats why I'm typing so slow) because he told me and I was so excited to hear about all the old stuff that I forgot some of it.

ALSO........John H., and anyone else around the Bay Area, he says that they have a trailer load of old wood.

The machines and wood have been locked away for 15 years. The wood is on racks.

As far as the jointer goes, he has run it but he hasn't run any wood through it. He says that it is three phase and that I would need to get a phase converter. Agaiin, He just seems to me that he's a business type guy selling out old equipment instead of a woodworker who would have a knowledge of WWing on this machine or that. Kind of just another piece of equipment. He does know, however, of the "special little group of Oliver owners" and I guess thats where he gets his prices from. I don't know but I don't think he would know about the bearings, beds, fence and so forth. I asked him what it weighed and he said that it was REAL heavy. I was thiinking half a ton but he said only 400 or 500 pounds. I guess I would still have to bring my trailer 'cause getting it on and off my truck would probably not be a good idea.:D

As long as it checks out OK with John I'd probably only want to give him $800 or $900 because I would want to have the motor changed over to single phase. Is this possible/doable/recommended or not?

Thanks VERY much to all for the help and the info.

[Dev Emch]

...

As long as it checks out OK with John I'd probably only want to give him $800 or $900 because I would want to have the motor changed over to single phase. Is this possible/doable/recommended or not?

....



WOW NELLY! Stop the Apple Cart Right There! I have never torn into the guts of the 144 but I know how lots of other olivers were made and I doubt this is an exception.

The 144 is DMD which means direct motor drive. The motor has NO BEARINGS. Instead, the cutter head is supported within a yoke structure by only two precision bearings. These are the inboard and outboard cutter head bearings. The motor's rotor is hung off the cutter head shaft or cantelevered outwards from the back of the jointer. This rotor floats within the motor's stator and motor housing. Often, the housing is a cast iron extension off of the yoke structure and unlike most electrical motors, the stator pack assembly can be removed with ease. This is done by pulling the single end bell and carefully removing the stator pack. The stator pack is comprised of the plate laminations and the stator windings.

Often these motors are made up as motor kits by Louis Allis, Woods, Doerr and even Baldor. This setup runs very smooth and most heavy duty iron of the day was made this way. But it is a three phase motor.

Now, the problem is that its extremel doubtful that your going to get a single phase replacement for this motor. I am betting it anit going to happen. Some oliver jointers did have discrete motors with belt drive; however, the entire cutter head yoke assembly was different. In place of the motors outer housing, one found a pulley sheave assembly.

Now, some folks have gone to the exteme trouble of rewinding these motors as single phase motors. This is hard, extremely expensive and the results are mixed. You often also have to replace the electric box as there is no provision for a cutout switch on the rotor, thus, you need to use a solid state voltage sensing relay to disengage the startup winding and also to house the startup capacitor(s) in addition to the regular starter.

Another option would be to replace your current starter with a solid state VFD unit. If this is the only three phase machine your going to run, this may actually be a good choice. These jointers did not have large motors so a VFD may be relatively cheap and these do show up on ebay and other places. So far, the feedback from the field has been excellent. The device for this jointer is no larger than the starter/contactor currently used and this allows you to plug the jointer in as if it were just a single phase machine.

Other features include soft starts and no issues with starting and stopping phase converters. Realisticly this is the best way to go if you can do it. This unit also takes into account the protection issues of the motor. I am actually considering putting one of these on my porter jointer which built the same way but it has a 5 HP Louis Allis. Your jointer is most likely a 2 or 3 hp unit.

Let us know what happens...

[Mark Rios]

Yeah....see.....sometimes it is just sooooo easy to push these keys and type some words without knowing anything about what it means. That would be me here. Yup. Thats me.

Okay, the change the motor thing is a no go. I'll see what John finds out about the saw and go from there. Thanks Dev and Bill and all.

[Alan Turner]

From what little I know, it seems to me that the asking price is right in the ball park of what one has to pay for these guys. My usual dealer had one recently, clean, 3 phase of course, and he wanted $1500 or so for it, and he does not really negotiate price. So, around $1100 or so seems in the ball park. If you can do better, so be it, but he may not move much on the price.

Some of the price relates to the Oliver fan club. You might be able to get a 12" or 16" for similar money, but they would all be three phase.

My basement jointer is an old 12" Am. WW Mach. jointer, Rochester, NY. It was built as a DMD, with babbeted head. Later, who knows when, a machinst installed heavy iron pillow blocks with open bearings running in an oil bath. New cuterhead, belt drive, and so single phase as I bought it. I do not have 3 ph. in my home. Later, I put a Byrd head on it (specially made), and when I did so, I had Byrd ship it back to me with sealed bearings as the oil cups leaked a bit.
I had to pay a premium for the jointer as it was already single phase. Had it been 3 ph., I am guessing it would have been perhaps 500 - 1000 cheaper.

Old iron is great. Mine is dead on, and with the Byrd does wonderfully with figured and reversing grain woods.

Good luck on your quest.

[Bill Simmeth]

Wow, Mark, sounds like a real treasure trove -- some classic machines and nice wood! So, is it time for that larger shop you've always wanted? ;)

As Dev pointed out (and we've discussed) swapping that motor would be near impossible. However, if you really wanted to and were willing to spend a little time, the motor could be pulled altogether and a sheave installed instead. Then you could belt to the motor of your choosing. But, I wouldn't do it. Don't be afraid of 3-phase. You have plenty of converter options these days and they're not too expensive.

This jointer could be a really nice machine. I don't picture school shop jointers being pushed real hard. And with the right shop teacher, it probably saw regular maintenance. Just make sure no one used the ends of the tables as a work bench to pound things on!

Good luck,

[Jeff Singleton]

I think the 144 was aimed at schools and it is a good little jointer. Bill mentioned a 9" 166, well one is sitting in my shop waiting quietly till I find the time to restore her. Couple broke parts, nothing serious but new patterns and casting are in order. I think that 144 is priced to high, give him a lowball price but make sure he understands you are dead serious about buying the jointer. One thing you will want to check is if the tables are still in plane. Take a straight edge and set it on the infeed table and across to the outfeed table and look for gaps at the end of the straight edge. If there are gabs shimming the wedges are in order, use only shim stock, do not use washers, paper, cardboard, unactivated credit cards or your divorce papers, shim stock only. As far as the color goes, Oliver painted their machines whatever color you wanted and boy did they use body filler. Between Oliver and Porter I think they could have filled every pothole in our highway system with the body filler they used. Even if you have to shim the little beast when you are done it will still be better then anything the Pacific Rim has to offer.

Jeff Singleton;)

[Mark Rios]

One thing you will want to check is if the tables are still in plane. Take a straight edge and set it on the infeed table and across to the outfeed table and look for gaps at the end of the straight edge. If there are gabs shimming the wedges are in order, use only shim stock, do not use washers, paper, cardboard, unactivated credit cards or your divorce papers shim stock only. Jeff Singleton;)

How did he know I was divorced?????:D :D :D :D

[Allen Bookout]

Mark Rios said:
"How did he know I was divorced?????"

You are buying a lot of tools aren't you? Could be a clue.

Allen

[Frank Pellow]

Mark Rios said:
"How did he know I was divorced?????"

You are buying a lot of tools aren't you? Could be a clue.

Allen
I thought that you did that when you wanted to initiate a divorce. :D :p :rolleyes: