Jointer specs questions

[Debbie Battaglia]

Hi, I’m looking at two 8” Grizzly jointers, the 0858 and the 0495X. Both have spiral cutter heads. The 0495X has a 7” longer bed, adjusting wheel rather than lever, cutter head speed of 7000 rpm vs. 5500 and it seemingly weighs 200# more. I was surprised to find that the bed is almost twice as thick, at 3 5/16”! As an occasional user, my main goal is to make square boards (!) something I never get from my old Yorkcraft jointer. No matter that my fence reads perfectly square against an engineering square, the edges never come out 90• to the face. Given that humble goal, is there a reason to go with the 0495X? I will if it’ll get me there but I don’t know if its better features are an indication that it’s better quality overall. Is it more likely to square boards more accurately? What are the advantages of the increased cutter head speed and the much thicker bed? And is a lever that much harder to get incremental changes out of than a wheel? I only make cabinets and doors for my own home but since I mostly do it for pleasure, I don’t want to be frustrated by unsquared boards. Thanks for your opinions!

[John Ziebron]

They are both nice machines. I have the 0490X which is similar to the 0858. In general, a large woodworking machine that weighs more is better. And on a jointer a longer bed is nice but only if the projects you use it for require jointing longer stock. Wheels give you more precise adjustments which is why they include a digital readout. But in reality I've never seen the need for that kind adjustment on a jointer. A table saw and planer get your stock to final dimensions after jointing. In your case I'd say your projects should determine your choice here. You mention cabinets and doors. If you mean doors for the cabinets the 0858 would work just fine for you and the money you save could go for a better grade of another tool you might need. If by "doors" you mean the larger inside and outside doors for home entryways then you'd be better off with the 0495X. Of course, if the cost difference is not a factor for you and you think that down the road you might need to joint longer boards, like for a tabletop, then go with the 0495X.

[Charles Coolidge]

AVOID the G0858 junk pile at all cost! First don't buy the "Taiwan QC" story what a joke. It's a very lightweight machine for an 8" with small diameter parallelogram components, scant cast iron. You can flex the tables out of alignment with only moderate pressure on the handle when bringing the outfeed up to the stop. I bought one of those things new recently (face palm) and dumped it on craigslist for a loss soon after. It took quite a lot of time and effort to get the thing dialed in. The factory did a crap job assembling and adjusting it. I had to do their job for them.

[Andrew Hughes]

I doubt the tables are over 3 inches thick.
Maybe the ribbing is over 3 and a few more more here and there. Go big or go home. :)
Good Luck

[Charles Coolidge]

I looked at the G0495X there was a used one that came up for sale near me at the time. Was also looking at a new Powermatic PJ882-HH that was in stock at our local woodworking store. My assumption was probably the same machine made in the same factory just an extra $1k for the Powermatic name, WRONG! They are way different. Turns out the Powermatic PJ882-HH has some of the design elements of the larger 12" jointer. Downloaded the user manuals and really started comparing, yeah a lot different. Not saying the G0495X isn't a solid machine but the PJ882-HH is a battle tank. Up under the tables everything is massively large. Even the table stop bolt is ridiculously large.

Some differences...

- PJ882-HH has a 6 row 54 insert cutterhead, the G0495X has a 4 row 36 insert cutterhead.
- Table adjustment cams are in the tables on the G0495X, in the base casting on the PJ882-HH.
- PJ882-HH fence handwheel is a fine adjust of the fence angle (patented) vs on other brand machines including the G0495X that handwheel just adjust the fence in/out. Loving that as the fence is double jointed, trying to adjust the fence angle with just the grab handle is a bit tricky.
- The PJ882-HH has copper tipped gib bolts on the sides of the table, that's why the center of the table sides have no paint.
- The PJ882-HH has a 5 year warranty vs 1 year for the G0495X

The G0495X does have some do-dads like the table height handwheel adjusters and digital readout but those are of limited to no use on a jointer. The G0495X has a nice big cover on the front and back for easier maintenance vs the PJ882-HH just has a rear base cover.

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[Debbie Battaglia]

Thank you all for your input. I’m now looking at the Oliver 4235, Baileigh 883P, Grizzly 0495X and somewhat at the Powermatic 882HH. All 8” parallelograms with helical cutter heads. I’ve read some negative reviews of the Powermatic and with the much higher price, that concerns me. Of course random reviews aren’t a great thing to base your decision on but just reading the specs doesn’t tell you what the quality is. No place near me has any of these jointers you look at- it’s a big purchase to make sight unseen.

A few questions:
1. Does anyone have experience with any of these models?
2. Grizzly’s quality used to have a bad reputation. On paper the 0495x has all the things I’m looking for but I’m wary because of the reputation. Has its quality improved?
3. Oliver has had a good reputation but this one weighs 350# while the Grizzly weighs 600#. Can I assume the extra weight is a big plus?
Thanks again.

[Dave Sabo]

I looked at the G0495X there was a used one that came up for sale near me at the time. Was also looking at a new Powermatic PJ882-HH that was in stock at our local woodworking store. My assumption was probably the same machine made in the same factory just an extra $1k for the Powermatic name, WRONG! They are way different. Turns out the Powermatic PJ882-HH has some of the design elements of the larger 12" jointer. Downloaded the user manuals and really started comparing, yeah a lot different. Not saying the G0495X isn't a solid machine but the PJ882-HH is a battle tank. Up under the tables everything is massively large. Even the table stop bolt is ridiculously large.

Some differences...

- PJ882-HH has a 6 row 54 insert cutterhead, the G0495X has a 4 row 36 insert cutterhead.
- Table adjustment cams are in the tables on the G0495X, in the base casting on the PJ882-HH.
- PJ882-HH fence handwheel is a fine adjust of the fence angle (patented) vs on other brand machines including the G0495X that handwheel just adjust the fence in/out. Loving that as the fence is double jointed, trying to adjust the fence angle with just the grab handle is a bit tricky.
- The PJ882-HH has copper tipped gib bolts on the sides of the table, that's why the center of the table sides have no paint.
- The PJ882-HH has a 5 year warranty vs 1 year for the G0495X

The G0495X does have some do-dads like the table height handwheel adjusters and digital readout but those are of limited to no use on a jointer. The G0495X has a nice big cover on the front and back for easier maintenance vs the PJ882-HH just has a rear base cover.



All fine and dandy, but……………………….you left out the most important spec.

PRICE

[Darrell Bade]

I have had the Grizzly 0495x for 15 years. No complaints with it other than I did have to let the smoke out of the motor last year, cost about $320 bucks.

[Charles Coolidge]

All fine and dandy, but……………………….you left out the most important spec.

PRICE

LOL right a whole $829 difference for a better quality Powermatic jointer, with a better beefier design, better helical cutterhead, with a 5 year warranty vs the coin flip Grizzly quality thing and lower resell and only 1 year warranty no I didn't forget the most important spec, superior machine and value.

[Dave Roock]

For slightly more $, you could buy the Hammer A3-26 10 inch Jointer & Planer combo or A3-31 12 inch J/P combo machine = far superior machines not made in China or Taiwan. Get a Jointer & Planer in one machine.

[Kurt Wyberanec]

I don't have specific experience with these machines, but it seems like you haven't really narrowed down choices.

Personally I would go with a euro style machine... what is your planer situation? You might be able to upgrade 2 pieces of gear for only a year now and get a good combo jointer planer...

The cutey cutterhead guard is another issue... I've never liked the pork chop and when I switched to a euro guard it was a tremendous comfortability change and made it much easier for me to use the machines though many like the chop... used is always an option to by bring some to the same price points.

[Alex Zeller]

I was looking at a Grizzly 8" parallelogram with inserts while also looking at the 882 but with straight blades since I don't think they are needed on a jointer. I very lightly used Powermatic 882-HH came up on Facebook that included the Powermatic mobile base and jumped on it. It's a very solid machine and the tables are flat. If I was going to order from Grizzly I think I would go with the South Bend. It's only a few bucks more but weighs 60 lbs more. I'm guessing that it's more likely to have flatter tables and fence than the Grizzly. It also has a 2 year warranty (I think).

As for the Powermatic I have no regrets. I would buy it again if I needed to replace it. Some people like a combo machine. If you think it would work for you then fine. But I like having two separate machines. I also added a plate to the side of my 882-HH so I can use a powerfeeder with it.

[Alex LaZella]

You can find someone to complain about any equipment purchase you might make. So what. I have two grizzly machines and one SCM machine that cost more than both of my grizzly machines combined. Guess which one arrived screwed up and needed me to fix it before I could use it and guess which two arrived working perfectly and havent given me any trouble at all. My SCM runs like a champ now and I love it. You can find things to gripe about with every brand out there. Personally it seems to me that the more we spend on our machines the more we tend to look down on anything cheaper than what we have. Sort of helps us justify the expense. My dirty secret is that I have a Ridgid tablesaw, the old 3650, it is by far the cheapest big tool in my shop. Years ago I wired it for 220 but it has handled every single thing I have thrown at it over the years and I work almost exclusively with large thick hardwoods. It ripped my 18" wide 2.25" thick 11' long Ash boards that were a bit too wide for my 16" J/P with out even breaking a sweat. The internet wisdom is that I couldnt possibly build anything except firewood unless I had something else (most places a sawstop on this forum I would probably be told a slider) but somehow I survive. Powermatic from my own hands on experience and that of several friends and relatives is not worth the premium. If you like the grizzly I am sure it will provide you years of service. Good luck with your new jointer.

[Charles Coolidge]

I also added a plate to the side of my 882-HH so I can use a powerfeeder with it.

Do you have a photo of that you can post?

[Bruce Mack]

You can find someone to complain about any equipment purchase you might make. So what. I have two grizzly machines and one SCM machine that cost more than both of my grizzly machines combined. Guess which one arrived screwed up and needed me to fix it before I could use it and guess which two arrived working perfectly and havent given me any trouble at all. My SCM runs like a champ now and I love it. You can find things to gripe about with every brand out there. Personally it seems to me that the more we spend on our machines the more we tend to look down on anything cheaper than what we have. Sort of helps us justify the expense. My dirty secret is that I have a Ridgid tablesaw, the old 3650, it is by far the cheapest big tool in my shop. Years ago I wired it for 220 but it has handled every single thing I have thrown at it over the years and I work almost exclusively with large thick hardwoods. It ripped my 18" wide 2.25" thick 11' long Ash boards that were a bit too wide for my 16" J/P with out even breaking a sweat. The internet wisdom is that I couldnt possibly build anything except firewood unless I had something else (most places a sawstop on this forum I would probably be told a slider) but somehow I survive. Powermatic from my own hands on experience and that of several friends and relatives is not worth the premium. If you like the grizzly I am sure it will provide you years of service. Good luck with your new jointer.

I too have the 3650. It does well with anything I have fed it, most recently rip cuts of 1.5 inch ash. Now I'll do the "Son, when I was your age..." bit. When I began woodworking in 1989 I had a Sears circular saw, a router, and a jack plane. I had no training or mentor, but I did have energy and a passion for woodworking. In my opinion, I made great furniture for family and friends.

[Bob McBreen]

Not an answer to your specific question. If you are glueing up a panel and your jointer fence doesn't hold 90 degrees run one side of the joint against the fence and the other side of the joint away from the fence. This will cancel out any error.

[Andrew More]

I've got the Grizzly G0490X, and it's been a very good machine for me. My only complaint was the goofy control panel attachment. I modified mine to remove the arm, and mounted the on/off switch to the side under the bed. This enabled me to put the jointed under a wall bench in the shop, while the panel would stick out.

I've got similar issues with this controls on other Grizzly tools (such as their planers), but it's simple enough to fix, and this is because I have a tight shop where space is at a premium.

[Debbie Battaglia]

I hadn’t considered South Bend, don’t know anything about them. Apparently they’ve only been making woodworking machines for a couple of years. Is that a reason for concern? It takes a while to iron out design kinks.

[Andrew More]

I hadn’t considered South Bend, don’t know anything about them. Apparently they’ve only been making woodworking machines for a couple of years. Is that a reason for concern? It takes a while to iron out design kinks.

South Bend as a company was around for about 100+ with a lot of industrial machine tools, but I believe went out of business. Grizzly bought the brand a few years back, and is apparently trying to use it to market upscale versions of their usual products, ala Black and Decker with DeWalt. I have no idea if they're successful or not.

[Debbie Battaglia]

To clarify, the jointer I buy won’t be used heavily, I only make cabinetry for my own home. But that doesn’t mean I want a cheap tool. I want a good quality jointer that will produce square, flat boards, very accurately, and which won’t need me to be tweaking and adjusting it after the initial set up. I’m not mechanically inclined. My current jointer’s fence doesn’t make edges 90• to the face, and that’s what I want. I’m not looking for bells and whistles, just accuracy. If I have to pay more for that I’m happy to.

[Robert Hayward]

All the brands you are considering are decent enough for a homeowner shop. However, given your statements in the post just above this post you need to take a longer look at Powermatic, in my opinion.

[John TenEyck]

To clarify, the jointer I buy won’t be used heavily, I only make cabinetry for my own home. But that doesn’t mean I want a cheap tool. I want a good quality jointer that will produce square, flat boards, very accurately, and which won’t need me to be tweaking and adjusting it after the initial set up. I’m not mechanically inclined. My current jointer’s fence doesn’t make edges 90• to the face, and that’s what I want. I’m not looking for bells and whistles, just accuracy. If I have to pay more for that I’m happy to.

You said that twice now and no one asked why? If the fence is set 90 deg to the table, verified by a square that truly is, then the only other variable is you. A new machine won't suddenly make it all better. If the tables on your current jointer are flat and coplaner, or can be adjusted to be such, I would have another hard look at the fence and why jointed edges aren't coming out square. d

John

[mike stenson]

You said that twice now and no one asked why? If the fence is set 90 deg to the table, verified by a square that truly is, then the only other variable is you. A new machine won't suddenly make it all better. If the tables on your current jointer are flat and coplaner, or can be adjusted to be such, I would have another hard look at the fence and why jointed edges aren't coming out square. d

John

Or, the square isn't square etc.. but for me I'd assume that chances are technique and pay attention to that.

[Holmes Anderson]

All the brands you are considering are decent enough for a homeowner shop. However, given your statements in the post just above this post you need to take a longer look at Powermatic, in my opinion.

Agreed, and consider the PM 60C. You don't need an insert cutterhead for hobby cabinetry. And I will stir the pot by suggesting that the much more expensive parallelogram jointers offer no real advantages over a wedge bed jointer to hobby woodworkers. Ok, bring it on (but all in fun of course).

[Patrick Kane]

His edge jointing issue might be specific to his machine. I cant recall ever coming across a Yorkcraft machine in my frequent used tool searches over the years. Jointer fences can be really hit or miss in my experience. Even my 20" euro jointer doesnt have a 10/10 fence. It is OK, and seems to hold its settings well, but it isnt perfectly parallel to the width of the outfeed table. That means if i move it across the face of the jointer, it will ever so slightly be out of square. But, i would encourage the OP to really sit down for 5-10 minutes with his current jointer's fence and see if he can get it dialed in. You will face the same exercise with whatever new machine you purchase.

[Alex Zeller]

Do you have a photo of that you can post?

I don't have the power feeder on it at the moment but I can get a picture of the plate mounted to the side of the jointer. I can't believe I waited as long as I did to do it.

[Alex Zeller]

To clarify, the jointer I buy won’t be used heavily, I only make cabinetry for my own home. But that doesn’t mean I want a cheap tool. I want a good quality jointer that will produce square, flat boards, very accurately, and which won’t need me to be tweaking and adjusting it after the initial set up. I’m not mechanically inclined. My current jointer’s fence doesn’t make edges 90• to the face, and that’s what I want. I’m not looking for bells and whistles, just accuracy. If I have to pay more for that I’m happy to.

A Powermatic will hold it's resale value better than a Grizzly. South Bend isn't the same company it once was but i believe that Grizzly is keeping it a premium brand to their "Grizzly" line. It's most likely made in the same factory as their other Taiwan made tools (which is the same factory that makes tools for Powermatic. A call to Grizzly could answer the question better than me but I would expect that they spec tighter tolerances and possibly better bearings If the South Bend was the same price as the Powermatic I would go with the Powermatic. But since it's surprisingly not much more than the Grizzly version I would take a chance.

As for if you need a parallelogram vs a cheaper dovetail jointer. I would say it's worth the upgrade. The tables are longer, longer tables makes for a much easier time flattening boards if your skills aren't as good. It's also much easier to set up the jointer. Sorry but you will have to at least check the set it up and occasionally check that the outfeed table is even with the cutter head. It's possible to find a company that will deliver the Powermatic and set it up for you.

I would suggest getting some precision angle blocks. You can buy them cheaply from Amazon or ebay. They are very useful for setting up things like the angle of your fence. They come in a 2 piece set one that has one 90 degree and two 45 degree corners and the other that's 30, 60, and 90 degrees.
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[Debbie Battaglia]

More good comments, I appreciate it. I worked for an excellent cabinetmaker for two years and a lot of what I did was square up boards on a 16” SCM jointer. I had no problems there. Maybe someone with better technique could get square boards out of my cheaper home jointer. But the better quality machine made it easy for me to get it right. The square cutters appeal to me because I don’t want to deal with knife changes. As for parallelogram vs dovetailed ways, I keep reading that the // is easier to adjust, but I don’t have any experience with it.

[Holmes Anderson]

A Powermatic will hold it's resale value better than a Grizzly. South Bend isn't the same company it once was but i believe that Grizzly is keeping it a premium brand to their "Grizzly" line. It's most likely made in the same factory as their other Taiwan made tools (which is the same factory that makes tools for Powermatic. A call to Grizzly could answer the question better than me but I would expect that they spec tighter tolerances and possibly better bearings If the South Bend was the same price as the Powermatic I would go with the Powermatic. But since it's surprisingly not much more than the Grizzly version I would take a chance.

As for if you need a parallelogram vs a cheaper dovetail jointer. I would say it's worth the upgrade. The tables are longer, longer tables makes for a much easier time flattening boards if your skills aren't as good. It's also much easier to set up the jointer. Sorry but you will have to at least check the set it up and occasionally check that the outfeed table is even with the cutter head. It's possible to find a company that will deliver the Powermatic and set it up for you.

I would suggest getting some precision angle blocks. You can buy them cheaply from Amazon or ebay. They are very useful for setting up things like the angle of your fence. They come in a 2 piece set one that has one 90 degree and two 45 degree corners and the other that's 30, 60, and 90 degrees.
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Longer tables are only an advantage for jointing longer boards. The OP is building cabinets so long tables are not needed. Also, typical 8" wedgebed jointer table length is plenty long enough for most jobs other than maybe architectural work. Jointer setup is generally only necessary to be performed between zero and one time for a hobby woodworker so ease of table alignment doesn't justify the significant added cost of the parallelogram jointer. Wedgebed jointers aren't actually very difficult to shim anyway, and any jointer that requires frequent realignment should be melted down and turned into razor blades.

[andrew whicker]

I don't know about these two jointers specifically, but if Grizzly and Powermatic machines both look identical.. then they are. There on no 'QC differences' between the brands.

IF they are the same. Sounds like someone above has seen the two machines in this discussion ARE different.


I just wanted to note that I've met an engineer for one of those two companies who actually went to China on the mfg floor as QC and we talked about this stuff over dinner. So I just want to re-iterate... no QC differences.

I also want to say that woodworking equipment is not NASA tech. China can reliably pump out woodworking tools like this with low error rates because they are simple machines and the kinks have mostly been worked out by now. OTH, if you aren't happy with the robust-ness.. well let's all collectively blame capitalism (shaking my fist loud and proud), but don't blame 'China made'. It's casting (simple metals) and straight forward machining after all, not rocket science.



On another note, I rarely (never?) joint long boards with a jointer to finalize the joint. If the crown is bad enough, I will keep flipping the board end to end to get rid of most of the crown on the jointer and then finish w/ the tablesaw - OR - if it is wide enough (5.5" ish) I will use the track saw. Once I have my reference, I either use the TS to finish or use the planer.

[Charles Coolidge]

but if Grizzly and Powermatic machines both look identical.. then they are. There on no 'QC differences' between the brands.

They are not identical and there ARE QC differences between the brands. I have purchased quantities of machines of both brands Grizzly and Powermatic and I'm telling you Grizzly has far more QC issues. This includes their much vaunted made in "Taiwan" machines. Here I'll demonstrate...

Made in Taiwan ShopFox (Grizzly) cyclone. Could they manufacture that chip drum any more crooked? Embarrassingly poor QC. Plus chipped paint, bubbling paint with rust underneath. Which is sad because it's actually quite a fine cyclone, just the QC is lame. You have to decide whether you want to roll the dice on QC with them. And for a jointer there's not much that can be easily remedied if the thing is out of whack. Grizzly sent me a new chip drum which by the way they said cost $539 :eek:. I hauled the new drum to the dump and pitched it. The steel is so thin I could literally crush the barrel it with my bare hands. The cheapest of casters. The two latches were a joke. I purchased a steel drum locally for $50 that's way stronger. Added 4 latches instead of 2 and some decent casters.

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[Charles Coolidge]

I’m not mechanically inclined.

Then you need to stay away from Grizzly machines. The high frequency of QC issues coupled with their support model which is just ship parts to the customer and have the customer wrench on the machine would not be a good fit for you.

[Charles Coolidge]

You don't need an insert cutterhead for hobby cabinetry.

Forgetting that insert helical shearing cutterheads are far superior to knives which tear out badly on figured woods which the hobby guys frequently use consider this. In the old days I began using my brand new jointer with knives and only minutes in I hit a pebble and WHACK a notch in the middle of the knives which required me to go buy brand new knives plus the time and hassle of trying to adjust them. That had to be 35 years ago and I still remember the experience with frustration. Now I just spin the insert(s) to a new edge and I'm back in business.

Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Mine are Hickory and I guarantee you will want carbide tooling to mill that stuff it's brutal. Knots same thing, advantage inserts. If you only plan to ever joint mostly straight grain knot free soft to medium woods that are not rough sawn e.g. the surface doesn't have hidden impurities that could damage the knives then knives are an option.

Then there's the price. For a 20" planer yeah an insert cutterhead is going to be very expensive but the insert cutterheads for 6"-8" jointers not so much. Especially with half of Asia now making knock-offs of the Byrd.

No I'm NOT done yet lol. Then there's the NOISE wow straight knives are LOUD as hell disrupting my woodworking tranquility. Insert cutterheads are much quieter.

[mike stenson]

You've convinced me with the noise complaint. I'll just keep mostly using hand planes ;)

In reality; I do have, and sometimes use, a power jointer. I just had to chuckle at the 4-6dB of savings (admittedly, that's a lot but.. still over 80+dB... got ear muffs on anyway).

[Charles Coolidge]

As for parallelogram vs dovetailed ways, I keep reading that the // is easier to adjust, but I don’t have any experience with it.

There's a big difference between USA dovetailed ways of old and China/Taiwan quality dovetailed ways today. And on a jointer with angled dovetailed ways and the weight of the tables working against you that's why you hear guys talking about "shimming" and jiggering and having to hassle with them. Hence the invention of parallelogram jointers that once adjusted move up/down on a mechanism that retains alignment.

BUT if you receive a parallelogram jointer that's adjusted out of whack from the factory trying to adjust a parallelogram jointer can quickly get out of hand difficult. Each of the 4 corners of the table will have a cam adjuster to adjust that corner up/down. Seems simple enough but if you adjust one cam the whole table moves, what just happened at the opposite diagonal corner? Adjusting them can be quite tricky. That's why all the manuals caution to adjust in very small amounts. It's not a cakewalk.

[Charles Coolidge]

You've convinced me with the noise complaint. I'll just keep mostly using hand planes ;)

In reality; I do have, and sometimes use, a power jointer. I just had to chuckle at the 4-6dB of savings (admittedly, that's a lot but.. still over 80+dB... got ear muffs on anyway).

Human hearing is such that we perceive a 3dB increase as twice as loud. But it's also the type of noise, straight knife jointer noise is quite unpleasant vs insert noise which is more of a white noise. Not that it matters really the cyclone is LOUD as hell WHAAAAAAAAHHHHH at about 90+ decibels.

[Warren Lake]

Human Hearing requires a 10 db increase to perceive as twice the volume. Jointer noise with straight knives is machine dependent. My general jointer sounds like a tin can. Flapping steel base. The old SCM Invincible has a nice smooth hum to it. No substitute for mass. i wear ear protectors.

[Greg Quenneville]

The noise can be amplified by the arrangement of the tables near the cutter head. Those with notches seem to be (slightly) quieter than the plain tables running straight knives. The dust extractor makes my straight knife machines sound like an air raid siren.

I can’t comment otherwise. I haven’t had the other issues people mention with straight knives, but I hone to crazy sharpness and limit feed rate. I am likely going to convert one of my machines to helical just to deal with rare woods which always seem to have gnarly grain and are chock-a-block with machining risk.

[Andrew Hughes]

My jointer isn’t very loud. I can adjust the table distance out from the knives. So I set the about 1/8 of a inch from the table lips.
My jointer is direct drive so the head spins about 3400 rpms.
I prefer sharp hhs.
Good Luck

[Jim Becker]

...support model which is just ship parts to the customer and have the customer wrench on the machine would not be a good fit for you.

That's kinda how the whole industry works and has for a long time for stationary tools, even the more expensive, premium stuff.

[Charles Coolidge]

That's kinda how the whole industry works and has for a long time for stationary tools, even the more expensive, premium stuff.

Yes, but with Grizzly's high frequency of issues its almost certain this poster will have to wrench on the machine. The Powermatic PJ882-HH I purchased required nothing, even after going over it with my knit picky machinist indicators and measuring tools.

[Holmes Anderson]

Forgetting that insert helical shearing cutterheads are far superior to knives which tear out badly on figured woods which the hobby guys frequently use consider this. In the old days I began using my brand new jointer with knives and only minutes in I hit a pebble and WHACK a notch in the middle of the knives which required me to go buy brand new knives plus the time and hassle of trying to adjust them. That had to be 35 years ago and I still remember the experience with frustration. Now I just spin the insert(s) to a new edge and I'm back in business.

Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Mine are Hickory and I guarantee you will want carbide tooling to mill that stuff it's brutal. Knots same thing, advantage inserts. If you only plan to ever joint mostly straight grain knot free soft to medium woods that are not rough sawn e.g. the surface doesn't have hidden impurities that could damage the knives then knives are an option.

Then there's the price. For a 20" planer yeah an insert cutterhead is going to be very expensive but the insert cutterheads for 6"-8" jointers not so much. Especially with half of Asia now making knock-offs of the Byrd.

No I'm NOT done yet lol. Then there's the NOISE wow straight knives are LOUD as hell disrupting my woodworking tranquility. Insert cutterheads are much quieter.

I disagree. Neither hobby woodworkers nor typical commercial cabinet shops frequently use highly figured wood for kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities. Regarding nicks, most people stagger the knives after getting a nick. A careless woodworker can sustain multiple knife nicks and keep using the same knives by staggering them in different ways - same for the planer. A HSS knife will take a deep nick where carbide will shatter because it's so brittle. Carbide inserts are also relatively expensive to replace. HSS jointer knives are practically disposable. Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Nobody needs carbide inserts to build a single set of kitchen cabinets. HSS knives will stay sharp for your cabinets, bedroom set, dining set, and more, regardless of the wood species. Carbide inserts make sense for a production shop that is building 100s of sets of cabinets per year. They save the down time of blade changes, although rotating a bunch of inserts probably takes more time than swapping a few knives. Carbide inserts make sense for those who process only highly figured wood, but even then the inserts are more useful on the planer than the jointer. You are a hobby woodworker, right? How often did you need swap out the knives on your straight knife jointer? When I bought my first jointer from a local machine supply shop that sold to many hobby woodworkers they told me I would probably get a year out of a set of knives before they needed to be swapped out. They were right, and I work with hard maple, cherry, ash, and white oak so the knives get well used. I concede the points about reduced noise and tearout in highly figured wood but those advantages don't justify an extra $600+ in the purchase price for average Joe hobby woodworker. +1 with Mike Stenson on the hand planes.

[Rick Potter]

If your problem is mainly getting a 90 degree cut on edges, you can solve it by adding a wooden face to your fence.

Drill a couple holes in the face, and screw on a piece of white melamine shelving to it from the back side. Make the fence as square as you can get it, lock it in, then loosen the screws a bit and add paper shims where needed to square it up, then tighten the screws.

Cardboard cereal boxes make great shims. Playing cards are even better if thin is needed.

PS: One other thing. Check to see if one or more of your blades is out of square with the table. That could do what you describe.

[Marc Fenneuff]

One session of dressing the HSS knives on my old iron 8" jointer was enough to remind me why I bought a Shelix for it.

I'm leaving the HSS knives and factory cutterhead in my lunchbox planer because they're indexed, double-sided, inexpensive, and produce a great finish.

I do enjoy honing plane irons and chisels.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, but with Grizzly's high frequency of issues its almost certain this poster will have to wrench on the machine. The Powermatic PJ882-HH I purchased required nothing, even after going over it with my knit picky machinist indicators and measuring tools.

The best machine you can buy is one owned by a perfectionist hobbiest. He/she would have dealt with any issues when they got it. You reap the benefit.

Anyone expecting perfection with a new machine out of the box is often disappointed.

John

[Warren Lake]

the best machines ive bought are 30-50 years old and came from old European cabinetmakers who bought them new. All accessories still with them, plug and play.

[Alex Zeller]

If the OP isn't mechanically inclined then buying a machine with carbide inserts is almost a requirement. First if not used hard they will last years without needing anything. If they do need turning to a fresh edge (or replaced) it's a very simple job. Replacing dull blades and setting them up requires more skill and will need to be done often enough so it's a matter of when, not if. While less noise and longer life is a nice benefit of inserts I'm betting most people buy them simply to avoid the pain of learning how to change blades.

[Charles Coolidge]

I disagree. Neither hobby woodworkers nor typical commercial cabinet shops frequently use highly figured wood for kitchen cabinets and bathroom vanities. Regarding nicks, most people stagger the knives after getting a nick. A careless woodworker can sustain multiple knife nicks and keep using the same knives by staggering them in different ways - same for the planer. A HSS knife will take a deep nick where carbide will shatter because it's so brittle. Carbide inserts are also relatively expensive to replace. HSS jointer knives are practically disposable. Let's talk cabinetry, say kitchen cabinets. Nobody needs carbide inserts to build a single set of kitchen cabinets. HSS knives will stay sharp for your cabinets, bedroom set, dining set, and more, regardless of the wood species. Carbide inserts make sense for a production shop that is building 100s of sets of cabinets per year. They save the down time of blade changes, although rotating a bunch of inserts probably takes more time than swapping a few knives. Carbide inserts make sense for those who process only highly figured wood, but even then the inserts are more useful on the planer than the jointer. You are a hobby woodworker, right? How often did you need swap out the knives on your straight knife jointer? When I bought my first jointer from a local machine supply shop that sold to many hobby woodworkers they told me I would probably get a year out of a set of knives before they needed to be swapped out. They were right, and I work with hard maple, cherry, ash, and white oak so the knives get well used. I concede the points about reduced noise and tearout in highly figured wood but those advantages don't justify an extra $600+ in the purchase price for average Joe hobby woodworker. +1 with Mike Stenson on the hand planes.

Let's agree to disagree but I think you are in the minority opinion on this.

[Holmes Anderson]

Let's agree to disagree but I think you are in the minority opinion on this.


Yes, of course. And I know I am in the minority. As I indicated in my initial post on the thread, my intention was to stir the pot.

[Debbie Battaglia]

I did talk to someone at Grizzly. He said the South Bend is the same exact machine except for a minor part or two, same design, made in the same factory, as the G0495X. I asked why the weight was different then. Didn’t get a convincing answer. He said it’s considered a “premium” machine only because of the longer warranty. I got the feeling he didn’t have a firm grasp of the details though, that I’d hear something different from a different rep. I’ve had a Powermatic cabinet saw for 15 years and it’s been problem free. But I’ve read about fence issues with the Powermatic jointers. Of course that could be a tiny percentage, who knows.

[Alex Zeller]

So the tech's answer had me disappointed in Grizzly. If they want to creat a "premium" line using the South Bend name I would expect it to be a premium product, not just an extra year of warranty. So I looked up the parts list for the SB1091 and the G0495X. I didn't look too hard but of the four things I looked at I noticed is the fence has the same part number (so it's doubtful that it's machined to a tighter spec than the Grizzly). The tables do have a different part number and the outfeed table (didn't look at the price of the infeed table) for the SB is $100 more than the Grizzly so it is possible that it's either a better (thicker) build or maybe machined better than the Grizzly.

The other part I looked at is the bearings for the cutter. The SB uses a one size larger diameter bearing, so that's good. The part number uses the extension "2NSE" which I have only seen used by Nachi brand bearings. Where as the Grizzly uses a "ZZ" bearing with could mean almost any brand. When you put the part number for the bearing into the search bar the picture of the 6203ZZ shows a metal shielded no name bearing for less than $3. The SB part number for the 6204 2NSE shows an NTN bearing for $15. So it seems like the SB has larger nicer bearings.

The final thing I looked at was the motor. There's no picture of them but the SB motor costs $531 while the Grizzle motor $310. I'm guessing that it's also built better. Clearly there are differences. I would expect the salesman to know this stuff.

[Dave Roock]

So the tech's answer had me disappointed in Grizzly. If they want to creat a "premium" line using the South Bend name I would expect it to be a premium product, not just an extra year of warranty. So I looked up the parts list for the SB1091 and the G0495X. I didn't look too hard but of the four things I looked at I noticed is the fence has the same part number (so it's doubtful that it's machined to a tighter spec than the Grizzly). The tables do have a different part number and the outfeed table (didn't look at the price of the infeed table) for the SB is $100 more than the Grizzly so it is possible that it's either a better (thicker) build or maybe machined better than the Grizzly.

The other part I looked at is the bearings for the cutter. The SB uses a one size larger diameter bearing, so that's good. The part number uses the extension "2NSE" which I have only seen used by Nachi brand bearings. Where as the Grizzly uses a "ZZ" bearing with could mean almost any brand. When you put the part number for the bearing into the search bar the picture of the 6203ZZ shows a metal shielded no name bearing for less than $3. The SB part number for the 6204 2NSE shows an NTN bearing for $15. So it seems like the SB has larger nicer bearings.

The final thing I looked at was the motor. There's no picture of them but the SB motor costs $531 while the Grizzle motor $310. I'm guessing that it's also built better. Clearly there are differences. I would expect the salesman to know this stuff. Good help is hard to find lol Nothing new there. Grizzly salesman did not know & instead of calling back with answer, just gave a generic "answer". True/Untrue answer = ???

[mike stenson]

You know, "I don't know" is an acceptable answer. It's a whole lot better than making something up too.

[Charles Coolidge]

But I’ve read about fence issues with the Powermatic jointers.

Do you have a link? I can't find a single review of the PJ882 with a fence issue, maybe you were referencing another model.

[Debbie Battaglia]

Sorry, I don't remember where I saw those comments about the fences. I saw a couple that said they didn't hold a 90 degree angle.

Customer service people are usually so frustrating, just reading from some document, but not necessarily getting the right answer. Or they just guess or BS. It's almost surprising when you get someone who knows what they're talking about.

I've learned a lot from this thread, thank you all. I'm still undecided about what I'll get.

[Charlie Jones]

I will put in a plug for the German blades sold by Disposi- Blade. After the initial cost for the blade holders the blades are cheap, double sided and really sharp. They are much cheaper than insert tooling and there is is no setup. I have them in my jointer and planer. I highly recommend them.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I have the G0857 which is the straight knife version of the 858. It's a decent machine, quite flat tables and casting (worst flaw was a .003 dip along outfeed). Factory adjustment was pretty good, but I did dial it in a little better myself and found the parallelogram adjusting mechanism to be easy and quick to use.

More heft wouldn't hurt, but it is solid enough for hobby furniture making by a long shot. The "built in mobile base" is kind of a joke, it's just 4 tiny wheels without casters, so you have to lift one side of the machine to turn. But it does allow you to move it.

Seems to have decent power with straight knives.

Re: Levers vs Handwheels - I don't mind the levers on the infeed, but I'd prefer a handwheel on the outfeed to ease fine tuning. I can get it done with the lever, though.

Noise- it's not too loud until you run the DC, then it sounds like an air-raid siren. I think this is a thing with straight knives, insert heads should be quieter.

[Debbie Battaglia]

Does a cutterhead with 54 inserts produce a significantly better surface than one with 36?

[Charles Coolidge]

Does a cutterhead with 54 inserts produce a significantly better surface than one with 36?

Helical sheering cutter heads can leave a pattern on the wood surface so the more inserts and overlapping rows of inserts the better imo. The patterns can be difficult to impossible to see on light colored woods, until you put some finish on them and they pop out. Light sanding removes them. Likely a non issue for edge jointing. Cutter head speed is also a factor. The Powermatic PJ882 turns at 7,000 rpms. Other jointers are much slower. Given the same feed rate the 7,000 rpm cutter head will make more passes.

[Alex Zeller]

I can't say how good all the fences are that Powermatic makes but I can take a picture of mine. That's a 24" Starrett square. I had to put the flashlight under it to see the gap in the middle. That gap is too small to get the smallest feeler gauge into it that I have (.0015). I've checked it for twist too and it's nice and flat.

If buying new I would remove the fence, not too hard, and lay it flat on one of the tables to check flatness unless you have a way of checking it. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that Powermatic will replace anything that's bad. I believe they will send someone to your shop to do any warranty repairs.
477281
And the power feeder mount that I forgot to post earlier.
477282

[Jeff Roltgen]

Debbie,
FWIW: Just realize, the world is still reeling from covid, and I cannot tell you how many different products I've received as of late, at all price levels, that simply are not up to par.
Goes like this: "We're short handed, ham-strung by raw material shortages/delays, severely back-logged, and all we hear from the top is: get these orders filled..."
How much room is left for quality? Less than ever before.

I had significant nits to pick and adjust/fix myself on a new Italian slider saw this year. Stripped/cross-threaded screws in at least 3 nut-serts on the access panels. Wiring was pinched between switch plate and machine body, bowing the plate out very plainly. First thought it was freight damage. Also, was told wagon is aligned/leveled at the factory - just "set it and snug it up". Not even close. Lots of little tweaks, (and I am a fussy tweaker by nature), but ultimately happy with the machine. I just had to put out half a day of additional labor before the machine performed to spec's promised straight from the factory, and accept that that's just the reality of life at this time.

Point here is, no matter what you buy, no historical/ anecdotal accounts of quality can be relied upon, and what I'm hearing from others here is no surprise, and supports my observation. We've not seen the likes of this in our lifetimes.
It simply is not the greatest time to buy anything, so I suggest:

1> Wait 'til the dust settles and the manufacturers start leaning back into quality control instead of a "slam it out the door" modus operandi.
2> Find that fabled retiree with that 30 year old machine for sale that still runs like a top.
3> Buy a new one, and expect to be tweaking at least a little bit (yes, I know we established this could be a deal breaker for you). Moreover, there's an alarming amount of posts currently on the web, discussing brand-new, higher priced European machines with casting issues, specifically on jointers, rendering immediate calls for field-technician visits before they are even making sawdust. Yikes.

(Okay, 4th option here) I'd look into what else could be giving you out of square edges on a machine who's fence is set at 90. Could very well be a minor knife-adjustment as a short-term remedy, as another already suggested. As you've stated, if you're technique gave you satisfactory results on another machine, I'll give you the vote of confidence, and suggest inviting a friend who enjoys tweaking to help you re-asses the knives on your current jointer. Solution could be waiting for you, right there in your shop.

Good luck,

Jeff

[Debbie Battaglia]

Jeff, you make a good point about not relying on pre-Covid experiences with these machines. An engineer friend who used to go to China regularly to keep an eye on production hasn’t gone since Covid started. QC is suffering because of reduced oversight.

I spent a little time adjusting my jointer and it’s working better. Still not great but it might suffice until I can get a better one. I appreciate everyone’s input.

[Mitch schiffer]

I had a g0858 jointer. I bought it new and sold it a year later. I personally didn't really like the machine. It seemed grossly underpowered even though it said 3hp it seemed much less. I never had issues with the tables coming out of adjustment but the fence never seemed to stay square. I ended up with a much larger 16" powermatic jointer. There is no comparison between the powermatic but they are not a direct comparison. I liked the older delta I had used prior to owning the grizzly better then the g0858.