When to pull the plug on an electrician?

[Zachary Hoyt]

I'm hoping for some advice from wiser people as I somewhat at a loss what to think, and therefore what to do. I've done our work here for the most part for the last 20 years, and have never had to hire a real electrician before. I don't know if I've been a sucker for the last four months, or if I'm being precipitate now (or maybe both).

The back story:
I bought a house last fall in a tax auction that has been abandoned and had the meter pulled in 2015. I gutted the house, including removing all the old wiring. Some of it was old cloth covered and getting pretty crisp, and there were some anomalies including a buried junction which was not even in a box, between a newer wire and an old wire. The house had 100 amp service and a relatively new panel, but I wanted to put in 200 amp service so I can not have to put in any propane appliances. I am planning to do the wiring myself from the panel onward.

I found an electrician who lives in the town and called him last November. He came out the same day and looked at the job, which I thought was pretty impressive. He said he would put together a quote, but it took a few weeks and some hassling from me to get a quote of $3400 to install a Square D QO 200 amp panel inside, a cut off panel outside, and to get a new line run from the pole to the house (maybe 30 feet or so) and to get the power company to hook it up and turn the power on. He said it would work well because he had a house to wire in another town in December, but he could do mine in the meantime. I didn't hear any more from him. Early in January I called and he said he would get started on it very soon. Then a few days later he emailed and said he was in COVID isolation for a while. I waited about a month and wrote again and he said he would do it soon. 10 days ago I called to see if anything was happening and he said he had a question about the riser that the local electrical inspector had not been able to answer, and that he needed to talk to the utility about it, but that he was in Mexico on vacation and wouldn't be back for a week.

All along I have told him that I was happy to have it done any time, but I really would need it in the spring when I get back to work on the house so I can run power tools without the generator. I emailed him Wednesday and said that I needed to know from him when he thought he could actually get it done, and that at some point I would have to try to find someone else who could do the job if he can't. I have not heard back and have been ignored when I have tried to call several times today. I am feeling frustrated, but I know that this is a tough time to find people to do any kind of work and I don't know if my expectations are unreasonable. I can't tell if he's actually done anything at the house, it doesn't look like it. I don't have a contract or any paperwork about any of this, it was an oral agreeement. I just would like the job to get done soon, ideally by early April, whether by him or someone else. If anyone has any advice on what I should do next I would appreciate it.

[Ron Citerone]

Try to find another electrician that can do it. You don't even have a contract and I think he already pulled the plug on you.

[mike stenson]

Try to find another electrician that can do it. You don't even have a contract and I think he already pulled the plug on you.

Yea, he's already quit this job. It's clear he's not interested.

[Malcolm McLeod]

... a quote of $3400 ...

I see no mention of you having given him any payment. If correct, move on. If you've paid anything, ask for a refund less his time and delivered materials.

If it were me, I'd hold back 10-20% of any agreed total to a contractor pending job completion, or perhaps as you describe in this case, passing the electrical rough inspection. It's on him to do a good and timely job.

...too harsh, you say??
It's on me to pay them. I have driven to a job site late on a Friday to hand a personal check to a plumber that allowed him to make payroll, but his 'profit' was held pending inspection. He was very appreciative, did great work, we had a excellent working relationship, and I trust we'd both be glad to repeat.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all for the advice. I haven't paid anything, though I offered to last time I talked to him, thinking maybe that would help. I just tried calling the 4 other electricians in the area and got their answering machines, but I'll keep after it till I find someone.

[dennis thompson]

My suggestion would be to move on. I'd also suggest you get two new quotes.

[Ronald Blue]

Definitely keep looking. I suppose it differs where one resides but here the utility ran the power into the meter base. I had to have the meter base installed and it was what they specified that was required. Ask the utility company if they have any recommendations on electricians they work with regularly. The utility here wasn't concerned what I did on my side of the meter base. I did have to have the ground rod installed as well.

[Kev Williams]

If this 'electrician' (<term used loosely, lol) is as adept at running and properly connecting up a house full of electric wiring, junctions, outlets and switches as he is at communicating, negotiating, planning and commencing with the job--

[Steve Jenkins]

If you can rewire the house you could set the panel, meter base and mast if that is allowed in your area. I did that here and the power company ran from the pole to the mast head. I got all the info I needed from the power company.

[Ron Selzer]

time to move on

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all for your help. It's an interesting idea to do it myself, and I will have to look into whether that is possible and how much I'd need to learn to do the work. I've done a fair amount of installing breakers and wiring, but everything from the panel to the pole would be new territory for me.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Thank you all for your help. It's an interesting idea to do it myself, and I will have to look into whether that is possible and how much I'd need to learn to do the work. I've done a fair amount of installing breakers and wiring, but everything from the panel to the pole would be new territory for me.

As Mr. Jenkins alluded to, you set the meter base & the mast/weatherhead, wire from the bottom of the base to the panel, then from the CBs out to your various loads. In every location I am familiar with, the power utility provider or their contractor will wire from the pole* to the top of the meter base, and then install the meter. The utility should specify these outside components, heights, and clearances.

Disallowed is pole climbing for you!;)

[John C Cox]

Be careful knowing the rules in YOUR state. Doing interior electrical work is one thing - nobody watching you do it... Outside, yeah. They will be watching. Better have all your ducks in a row including pulling all permits. Some places require hiring a Union electrician. Know your local laws. Know your local inspectors and permit offices.

Remember that between the booming economy after 10-years of recession and then Covid on top of it, many skilled tradesmen are swamped past their ears with so much business that they don't know which way is up. Be prepared for long waits and escalating material prices. My guess is that the wire prices have over tripled since his quote.

I personally would get in touch with several electricians and have them walk/bid it.... If you can. You may have to up the ante and talk to a larger residential electrical company... They have the advantage of not being a one man shop.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all for the continuing input. This is giving me lots to think about. I've done some reading now on the mast and panel installation, and so far it seems manageable. I looked up whether I am allowed to work on it, and it seems that I am in most smaller towns in NY, though some of the cities have more requirements about who can do the work. I'll have to confirm that with the building inspector on Monday. It looks like I may want to move the meter around the corner of the house as it's currently about a foot from the door, and it seems like 3 feet is what it's supposed to be. I'll have to call the National Grid office on Monday too and see if they can tell me if what I think I'm reading is correct about what I can do. I've never worked with wire heavier than 8 or 10 gauge, but I imagine I can learn about that too. Maybe the disappearance of the electrician will turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

[Thomas McCurnin]

An oral contract isn't worth the paper its written on.

Move on. A new service panel is a bit fussy, with potentially braiding the wires along the bus bars and wiring arc faults if that is code for your city. The city will connect the three wires to your box and the main shut off. The box has to be double grounded in our city (two copper rods pounded in the earth). Me? I'm a bit of an electrician, and would not do a panel change myself.

Oh, and I modified my post to add this: The City will tell you where your meter has to be and how tall the mast must be. There may be a couple options, but I'd be surprised if there was more than one location which would be approved by the city. The mast has to be clamped down to the home in two places using these long U-Channel clamps called struts. The City will likely also be nice enough to tell you what gauge wire you will use from the main meter to the service panel. By the way they obviously make separate meters and service panels and also make nice combination units with a smaller footprint. The combination units are really handy and because you are only attaching one box and mast not a box, meter and mast with connecting conduit and wire. I think you can add the combination box and mast yourself, but I would hesitate connecting a mess of romex into the box myself. If I did choose to DIY, I would put a large wide box in below the service panel, called a gutter, and run all the conduit there, then make short 2 foot connections from the gutter. Make sure you use wire markers and don't split neutrals, as the box has a left side and a right side, even and odd, so odd circuits go on the left and even circuits go on the right. Don't make the mistake of running an even neutral to the other side (odd) of the box. Wire markers are your friend.

[Ole Anderson]

I wired my entire house including meter box and 200 amp panel under a homeowner permit. 47 years ago. Hasn't burned down yet. 200 amp seemed like overkill on a 1550 sf ranch with basement. That panel is now full.

[Bruce Wrenn]

An oral contract isn't worth the paper its written on.

Move on. A new service panel is a bit fussy, with potentially braiding the wires along the bus bars and wiring arc faults if that is code for your city. The city will connect the three wires to your box and the main shut off. The box has to be double grounded in our city (two copper rods pounded in the earth). Me? I'm a bit of an electrician, and would not do a panel change myself.Some locations require four wire services. Locally here power company runs to your meter base, but in town (town power system) if it's under ground, you have to run to base of pole and leave enough wire to go up the pole. If it's overhead, you have to leave three feet of service wire out of the mast.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'd suggest getting on the phone now and getting more current quotes.
We just had a meeting with the electrician doing the wiring on our new house 2 days ago.

If you got a quote based on prices from last November - there's no way the guy is going to honor them now.

Our electrician told us his materials have increased between 3 to 5 times what they were last October. Some of his copper changes every other day.

You current guy's behavior is normal for 90% of all the current crop of people in the trades. With our 6 rental houses, we deal with them all the time.
Even with that going for us, we still have problems getting someone to even return our phone calls.

If anyone wants to make a killing in the trades today, the easiest way to do it is to simply answer or return phone calls. That's it. You don't even have to have the best price or the best workmanship - just answer your phone.
That's sad.

[Zachary Hoyt]

If the guy had told me the price had gone up I would have been willing to pay more, within reason, but he hasn't mentioned that. I have left messages with 4 electricians and will see if anything comes of that, but I am not very sanguine. Monday I will call the utility and the town and find out if I am allowed to do it myself, and if so who I need to talk to to get my plan approved. The place where I want to install the panel is in an interior wall, so it would be about 20 feet horizontally from the meter, or 30+ feet of wire. I know I'll need to get a meter/breaker combo to be able to run that far inside the building, and the main panel will have to be wired as a subpanel with the ground and neutral separate. The old service runs about 20 feet around the outside of the house in conduit and then pops through the wall to the panel, but I'd rather have the panel buried in an interior wall than on the surface of the exterior wall. I need to find out from someone if the existing mast is OK for 200 amps or if I would need to replace it. I know the wire inside it would need to be larger.

One thing that I have been wondering about is whether the drop from the pole to the meter box is still live. It sounds like most often it is, so I would have to get the utility to come out twice, once to turn off the power at the pole and again to put in the new drop and meter and turn the power on at the end of the job. It does seem like materials are very high now, but if I can use aluminum for the 200 amp runs it wouldn't be too bad. By the way, what is the proper way to say 4/0? Is it four ought, or four owe, or four zero? I figure if I can sound like less of an idiot when talking to the inspectors and people it might help a bit. Thank you all very much.

[lowell holmes]

Find some help here,

https://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=mcafee&type=E211US739G0&p=electrical+contractors

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Too large a portion of Tradesmen here who are self employed seem notoriously unreliable. Years ago, I needed a short section of stone foundation wall repaired about 18 ft and 7 ft high. I didn't care if they wanted to just do it over with block. I called over 12 masons and despite 7 appointments to come and look at the job, only 3 showed up and only 2 gave estimates. The highest one was the guy who showed up wearing flip flops, driving a station wagon with a bag of sand in the back. A buddy suggested I call a friend of his that had a company that does foundations for new homes. I reluctantly called him and he said the winter always leaves him with idle workers and if they can put a scaffold up with a plastic tent over the job, they would heat it and do it for cost in January. Heck Yeah. A crew of 3 guys descended on the place, tore out all the rock, poured a new footer and had the wall built in three days. Total was $2,800. 6 years ago, I met a commercial electrician who was between jobs. I mentioned that I needed a generator tap in with safety cut off to power things down at the barn when the power goes out. He redid the box with a new one 100 amp, put in a manual safety switch, installed a 50 amp rv receptacle, rewired the pump house lights and installed a new dusk to dawn for cost of materials and $60 an hour. total was just over $570 and he was done in a morning. ( I did have the rv receptacle ) We had two houses near each other. Had a fire in one and it burned the overhead wire going to the second house. Cost $1,200 just to have a new place for the overhead wire to attach to the second house and run down to the main box. I was wanting and waiting for the inspector to approve the job so the power could be connected. Came home one night and noticed the lights in the second house were on. No body ever tld me the thing was approved and the power turned on.

[Jim Becker]

Zachary, right now, every electrician I know is using aluminum for the big feeds because as expensive as it is on its own, it's a fraction of the cost of big copper at the present time. The only downside is that it's physically larger by a magnitude which makes routing it a whole bunch of fun. Even the short length from the generator transfer switch to our main panel was a two person exercise when the generator went in recently!! The sizing requirement for 200 amp service is "big". :)

Absolutely ascertain what the status is of the existing drop from the power company. If the meter is pulled, you can still use a meter to check for power if you want, but confirming with the power company is always a good idea. The drop may need resizing anyway if it was installed long ago for lower amperage service.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I'm not looking forward to running the aluminum, but I think I should be able to do it with suitably large conduit. The drop will have to be replaced with a larger wire, I would think, as the old service was 100 amp and the new will be 200. I just need to find out from the town if I need to be getting my design approved by them or by the electrical inspector, and then find an inspector who is willing to look at it, and then I should be able to start. I'm hoping that by doing it myself I'll be able to get the power on relatively soon, but that may not be realistic.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I had a call back from the local electrical inspector and he was very helpful and kindly explained a number of things that I didn't understand. I hadn't thought I would hear from him till Monday at the earliest. He says that since I am putting in a meter main and wiring the panel as a subpanel I can use SER cable from the meter main to the panel rather than individual conductors in conduit. I'll still have to stuff 3 conductors into the mast, but that will at least be outside instead of in a dirt floored crawlspace off the basement. I've ordered the wire online since the box stores are out of stock, and will hope to pick up the panel and meter main on Monday in Syracuse. Thank you all very much for your help, and for encouraging me to think about doing it myself. I guess it just hadn't occurred to me that I could, and now it seems a little daunting but well within the range of the possible, and doubtless it will be educational too.

[Brian Elfert]

I replaced the meter base and added an exterior disconnect switch at my house in late 2020. Mine is underground service. I pulled a permit and had to have it inspected before the power company would reconnect. It was done in a single long day. It was unseasonably cold which caused it to take longer due to working slower in the cold.

Nearly all electrical panels are indoors in Minnesota. I had replaced the main panel inside a few weeks before replacing the meter base.

[Brian Elfert]

Our electrician told us his materials have increased between 3 to 5 times what they were last October. Some of his copper changes every other day.


What electrical materials have increased that much since October? I follow the pricing for electrical materials from a distance and not seeing prices up anywhere near that much since October. Certainly, electrical materials prices are way up over the past two years. Romex has gone way up over the past year, but it doesn't seem to have climbed that much since October.

The price of raw copper is only up about 9% in the past three months and 11% over the past six months.

[Rich Engelhardt]

What electrical materials have increased that much since October?I didn't question him about specifics.
Since he's doing all the wiring in the whole new house, it could be anything.

If I run into him again I'll ask him - but - I doubt I will. His part of the electrical doesn't include the actual hands on work.

[Andrew Joiner]

---Maybe the disappearance of the electrician will turn out to be a blessing in disguise.

I like your attitude Zachary.:)

[Steve Jenkins]

Glad you jumped in and did it yourself. Congrats

[Zachary Hoyt]

It wouldn't have occurred to me to try to do it myself if Steve Jenkins had not suggested it, but now it seems like it should be something I can do with input from the inspector. I am just hoping that the septic system installer does follow through with what he has said he'll do in May or June depending on the weather. I have dug a couple of foundations with rental trackhoes, but a septic system is a whole other thing.

So far I am 0 for 2 on hiring work done, first the mason last fall and now the electrician, but it'll all work out in the end. It'll mean more time but less money put into these jobs, and that should be a good tradeoff.

[Kev Williams]

One thing that I have been wondering about is whether the drop from the pole to the meter box is still live...
Not sure how it's done elsewhere, but on the pole behind our house is a transformer, fed from a 7700v line atop the pole, that feeds the main lines for 3 houses, ours and the neighbors before and after us. Looks like every 3 houses share a transformer.

Between the 7700v line and the transformer is a hinged knife switch circuit breaker, the knife blade appears to be about 18" long, and the opposite end the blade from the hinge is a hole for a fiberglass pole-hook the power co. guys use to open and close the switch. If a short develops- such as the wind blowing the three main 110v wires enough they hit each other, the short will 'spit out' the knife, opening the circuit. I watched that happen several years ago...

Anyway-- if your pole has a transformer, and a knife switch, and it's 'shut', chances are you have power from the pole to the meter box. You could also just test the box with a volt-meter...

Just found a pic-
476245
I circled the knife-switch, most of it is hidden by the pole...

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thanks, that's very interesting. It looks like a giant version of the switch we have for the electric fence. I'll have to have a look next time I'm up there. I didn't pay as much attention to that stuff as I should have when I was thinking someone else would be doing that job.

[Alan Lightstone]

... The only downside is that it's physically larger by a magnitude which makes routing it a whole bunch of fun. Even the short length from the generator transfer switch to our main panel was a two person exercise when the generator went in recently!! The sizing requirement for 200 amp service is "big". :)


How big is big? Our 200 amp line is buried underground and I never saw the size of the wires. Just curious...

[Jim Becker]

How big is big? Our 200 amp line is buried underground and I never saw the size of the wires. Just curious...

Three wire service cable can fit in 2" conduit, if I'm not mistaken, but the space isn't generous. Note this is an anecdotal statement and may not be 100% accurate.

-----

Zachary, your conversation here is giving me to serious consideration of doing my own work for the electrical for my shop should I choose to get a separate service from the power company...it would certainly be more budget friendly for me and I'm comfortable with doing the actual work.

Kev, many of those circuit interrupters are now automated here in our area....it permits automated rerouting for faster recovery from an outage for the majority of households that might normally be affected. It's all networked together so a break or short gets isolated pretty quickly. There are still a bunch of manual disconnects, however, but less and less of them as the months pass by.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I went to Syracuse today and bought a bunch of odd things for the house and workshop, but when I went to Home Depot to buy a Square D QO panel I got the last one and when I got to the checkout they said it couldn't be sold and took it away, so that was a bit of a setback. I'll have to look into getting one online, or at an electrical supply house.

On the brighter side I got a nice (although purple) new exterior door to use in the workshop. It's mostly glass and is double pane and low E, so that seems good, and the only downside is I'll have to drill the holes for the knob. They also had 5# boxes of 3-1/4" framing nails and 3-1/2" galvanized spiral nails for $3 a box, and I bought 150 pounds worth for $90. They should work nicely for the siding on the workshop and woodshed, and the price was right.

[Bill Dufour]

Couldn't be sold?

[Jim Becker]

I bought the sub panel for my temporary shop off Amazon...it was a decent price. Now wire...the local electrical supply is more reliable at this point.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I went to the self checkout and scanned it, and the screen said wait for an attendant. When he came he said there was a stop sale order on that item, and carried it away to some hidden lair behind a counter. I was not very well pleased about it, but I have now ordered something similar but slightly older NOS on eBay for a bit less money. I'm going to order a meter main soon, but first I need to find out from the utility if they want a ring or ringless meter box. I didn't know there was such a distinction, and I have no idea which kind their meters require. Life seems very complicated sometimes.

I looked on Amazon and for the thing I was looking for the price seemed to be pretty high at that moment, but I know they go up and down a lot on there. I have not had much luck with the Amazon search function, so maybe a better deal was there and I missed it through ignorance.

[Michael Schuch]

I found an electrician who lives in the town and called him last November. He came out the same day and looked at the job, which I thought was pretty impressive. He said he would put together a quote, but it took a few weeks and some hassling from me to get a quote of $3400 to install a Square D QO 200 amp panel inside, a cut off panel outside, and to get a new line run from the pole to the house (maybe 30 feet or so) and to get the power company to hook it up and turn the power on.

There is no way he will EVER do that work for $3400 (even though $3400 sounds fair to both parties to me). The labor rates on this type of work has gone up considerably since last November (at least around here they have). Time to move on!

I would install the 200amp panel myself but that is just me. Let the power company pull the new service to your house. You will probably need an electrical inspector to sign off on the new panel before the power company will agree to pull the new service.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I would ask the power company if they provide the meter socket/disconnect. When I built my shop the power company supplied the service disconnect/meter combo, they also buried 450 foot high volt entrance cable from the road, set a transformer on a pad and from there they pulled underground conduit up to the disconnect, they did about the same thing when we built the house. maybe it's something they don't make public or volunteer...but it won't hurt to ask.

[Zachary Hoyt]

It's a good question. I found a helpful graphic explaining what is the utility's responsibility to maintain and what is the homeowner's and it appears from that that they provide the wire drop from the pole to the attachment point, and also the meter, but the wire and conduit down the wall, the attachment point itself and the meter box and all wiring beyond it are the homeowner's problem.

[Bill Dufour]

Note that then power company gets to use different rules about wire size etc. From the weatherhead down has to follow NEC.
Bill D

[Zachary Hoyt]

That's interesting to know. I guess I don't mind what rules they have to follow as long as they send me electricity when the time comes. I submitted a form last night and will call and try to talk with them today about the whole situation.

[Jim Becker]

It's a good question. I found a helpful graphic explaining what is the utility's responsibility to maintain and what is the homeowner's and it appears from that that they provide the wire drop from the pole to the attachment point, and also the meter, but the wire and conduit down the wall, the attachment point itself and the meter box and all wiring beyond it are the homeowner's problem.
That's how it is here, too. From the connection point up at the mast-head for overhead feed (or equivalent for a buried connection) the property owner bears all responsibility other than the actual meter.

[carey mitchell]

As one comment mentioned, don't skimp on the ground rod. Two bad experiences; in our first house in the 70s, we had constant issues, lights popping in storms, etc. A neighbor offered to help. We removed the panel as he wanted to make sure the bolts and connections were tight. One bus bar bolt simply rotated - the "electrician" had stripped the threads and stuck some lamp cord wire into the hole and put in the bolt - the amazing part was that it had not even overheated. The second part was that the ground wire went down and was hanging in the air under the floor, not connected to anything ! We put in a 10 ft. ground rod and a whole house surge suppressor and never had another problem.

A relative asked me last year to look at the wiring in the old family home, built in 1910; nobody had lived ther ein 25 years. Again, constantly popping bulbs. I immediately looked at the ground rod, which was a galvanized pipe with a clamp. I stuck my meter probes from the rod to the wire and got an open circuit, major corrosion, zero ground.

In neither case had there ever been an inspection. Grounds are important, don't skimp.

[Jim Koepke]

As one comment mentioned, don't skimp on the ground rod.

My advice on ground rods and wiring is to not use any aluminum connectors. (not sure if they are legal)

Many problems with aluminum wiring and connector clamps. Aluminum can passivate over time. (meaning it can become nonconductive)

Once when trying to explain this to an engineer, he told me, "you can't know that." He was one of the dumbest engineers of my acquaintance. Though it does seem people with higher degrees often have difficulty dealing with 'average' problems.

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

Aluminum wire for service entrances has been used for years with minimal issues. There is some debate if antioxidant paste is required, but I used it when I had aluminum wires for my service entrance. You do have to make sure the connections are torqued properly. (One of the aluminum feed wires coming into my load center was loose when I bought the house so I pulled it out and put no-ox on it before I tightened it up.) The aluminum wire used for high amperage stuff is not the same as the old aluminum branch wiring from the 1970s. Power companies use a lot of aluminum since it is cheaper than copper.

I chose to use copper between my meter base, emergency disconnect switch, and load center when I replaced everything. The extra cost was like $30 on a project that cost over $1,000.

[Jim Becker]

Use of aluminum for service entrance and other large amperage connections has become nearly ubiquitous in the trade. Use of the paste and properly tightening down the connections as he mentioned is part of that. Even in 2005 when I had the service upgraded (professionally) to 400 amps with a 200 amp feed to the shop building incorporated aluminum for the feeds. Same here for both my temp shop sub-panel and our whole house generator install. The masthead drop here to the meter is also aluminum and was installed in 1993 when the house was built. The 50 amp circuits for the range and dryer are also aluminum feeds, all professionally installed. As to cost, the price of copper wire is "painful" right now, even for the normal 10, 12 and 14 gage product used for typical circuits. For feeders...you practically need a second mortgage to afford it!

[Zachary Hoyt]

I didn't look at 2/0 copper SER cable, but 2/0 single wires were over $5 a foot, and single aluminum 4/0 wires were under $2 a foot, so it's a pretty big difference for my job.

I got an email today that the place where I had ordered the 4/0 aluminum SER cable on Saturday is out of stock and had canceled that part of my order, so I found another place that is about $75 more and am hoping that they actually have it in stock, or if they don't that they at least let me know a bit faster.

[Jim Becker]

I didn't look at 2/0 copper SER cable, but 2/0 single wires were over $5 a foot, and single aluminum 4/0 wires were under $2 a foot, so it's a pretty big difference for my job.


That was about what the electrician who did my generator project indicated. He also had to go to five different supply houses to get all the stuff he needed and was still happy he had some spare feeder available in his scrap collection. (he doesn't throw wire out at this point) They even reused the conductors they removed from the main panel to the meter to do the connections between the meter and the transfer switch after pulling a hunk of four wire from the transfer switch into the main panel which effectively became a subpanel. (sorry about that long sentence...) No waste over a foot or three long for them in today's market conditions!

[lowell holmes]

I'm late to this discussion, but the big box stores can probably give you a lead to finding an electrician or an electrical supply house can.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Even if I could find an electrician who wasn't a jackleg they'd be booked out pretty far. I called 5 on Friday and left messages, and the only one that called back is the one who is also an inspector and who very kindly answered several questions. He seems very nice, but even to get an inspection scheduled with him would take about a week, so I would think it might be a month or two before he'd have time to do the job. Time is not on my side in this situation anymore.

[Frank Pratt]

I use aluminum for feeders whenever I possibly can. If it's more than just a few feet long, it's gonna be aluminum. Reliability is never an issue if it's correctly installed.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I put the new service in this week, and it took about a day and a half, though 4 hours of that time was digging trenches to bury the ground rods 2 feet deep. I have bedrock at about 3 feet all around that end of the house, seemingly. The inspector is going to come and inspect on Thursday morning, so I am hoping that it will be acceptable, or that whatever fixes are needed are relatively simple. I had never worked with wire this fat before and found it very stiff and unyielding, but I hope from now on I'll only have to work with smaller wires on this job. I'm very grateful for the advice from folks on this forum to go ahead and do the installation myself. I haven't added the numbers in detail yet but it looks like doing the work might have saved me $1500 or more, even with the higher cost of materials, and it has certainly gotten done sooner than if I had had to wait for another electrician to have an opening.

[Jim Becker]

Nice work, Zachary!!

[Steve Jenkins]

Looks good.

[Bill Dufour]

A. conduit hickey might help with big cables.
Bill D

[Frank Pratt]

https://sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=477342&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1649523705

I suggest you strip off and pull up a few inches of slack into the panel so you have a bit of a loop of wire connecting to the lugs. It is not unheard of at all for there to be a suboptimal connection to develop there, damaging the insulation. If you have that loop it's a very simple matter of cutting off the damage and reterminating. It there's no loop, it's quite another matter.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you all very much. I hadn't heard of a conduit hickey so I looked it up, and it does look useful. I have an EMT bender, but that wouldn't have helped. I don't think I could make a loop with this wire, it is very stiff. I was pushing sideways on the cable below the box with my knee to get those four cable ends to go into their respective lugs, it took both hands to steer the wires. Also I don't know if I would have room in the box if I made a loop there, as I'll have some smaller wires that need to pass through that space on their way back to the floor to go to other parts of the house by way of the basement. If I need a bit more cable in the box I should be able to push it in from the basement, possibly.

[Steve Jenkins]

If you are going to run more wires below the floor I’d open one of the knockouts on the bottom of the box and drop either a 3/4 or 1” piece of conduit below the floor.

[Bill Dufour]

If you are going to run more wires below the floor I’d open one of the knockouts on the bottom of the box and drop either a 3/4 or 1” piece of conduit below the floor.
Smart move. I would also do the same out the top into the attic.
Bill D

[Zachary Hoyt]

The conduit sounds like a good idea, but I think I would need more than one, or a big one. I'll have a 40 amp 240 volt circuit going to the stove, and two of the same to the on demand water heater, besides some 120 volt circuits for lights, outlets, and such.

[Frank Pratt]

Thank you all very much. I hadn't heard of a conduit hickey so I looked it up, and it does look useful. I have an EMT bender, but that wouldn't have helped. I don't think I could make a loop with this wire, it is very stiff. I was pushing sideways on the cable below the box with my knee to get those four cable ends to go into their respective lugs, it took both hands to steer the wires. Also I don't know if I would have room in the box if I made a loop there, as I'll have some smaller wires that need to pass through that space on their way back to the floor to go to other parts of the house by way of the basement. If I need a bit more cable in the box I should be able to push it in from the basement, possibly.

It's actually much easier to get those big wires into the lugs if you have a big loop. Wait till you try getting 750MCM wire it the hole :)

[Zachary Hoyt]

A big loop outside the panel box or a loop inside? There's not a lot of room between the main and the bottom of the box for a very big loop, I would think. I hope I never have to work with bigger wires than these.

[Frank Pratt]

A big loop outside the panel box or a loop inside? There's not a lot of room between the main and the bottom of the box for a very big loop, I would think. I hope I never have to work with bigger wires than these.
Just strip back enough that there is a big loop inside the panel. Easiest is to do a 360* loop & into the lug. Or a big S curve. Whatever works or fits. If you have trouble bending the wire, you can take a piece of 1/2" copper pipe & pound out a flare on one end. Use that to go over the wire to help with bending. I made up a short length of EMT for that purpose at least 40 years ago and still have and use it. It works for wire up to about 3/0.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thanks, I'll keep the idea of a bender in mind. This is 4/0 aluminum wire, so 1/2" copper wouldn't be big enough, but 3/4" should work.

[Frank Pratt]

Thanks, I'll keep the idea of a bender in mind. This is 4/0 aluminum wire, so 1/2" copper wouldn't be big enough, but 3/4" should work.
Yep. You'll be happy with how much easier it makes the job.

[Tom M King]

Sometimes I have to beat on the large wires with a dead blow hammer to get the last little bit of bend in them.