Bandsaw Threw a Tire, Again

[Eugene Dixon]

I've had a Hammer N4400 for a few years. Each year it seems I have to replace the tires. I threw the tire off the lower wheel today after running the saw for a couple of hours prepping bowl blanks. Reinstalled and it barely got up to speed and off it came.

The last time I ordered tires, about a year ago, the tech folks in Delaware suggested glueing the tires. I used the recommended glue. Now I get to clean the residue.

FWIW, about the second time I replaced the tires, some of the smart folks in Delaware said the problem was the saw was meant to be kept in a condition space and not subject to thermal cycling experienced in an unheated shop. When the weather was 27 outside the other day, I checked the thermometer in the s'hanger and it was in the 50's - maybe the (laboratory grade) mercury thermometer is out of calibration. Still it does get a little warm in the summer with the sky lights.

I don't know. Maybe urethane tires?

Thoughts? Anyone else keep in Hammer in an unheated shop?

[Rod Sheridan]

I have only seen that problem when the blade is over tensioned.

Perhaps the built in tension gauge is out of whack?

Don’t glue the tires on, replace them and try reducing tension…Rod

[Zachary Hoyt]

I would definitely go to urethane tires. I had a set on my 18" Jet for 7 years and they were as good as new. They are harder to stretch onto the wheel, but I can't imagine them getting thrown off.

[Lee Schierer]

I agree with Zachary, go to urethane. When you get the tires, invite a friend to help. It is a job that requires at least three hands. Sharpen a piece of 1/2" dowel 6-8" long so it looks like a flat screw driver with a blunt tip on one end. Find a large pan, run hot water (~140 degrees) out of the tap into the pan. Put in a small amount of liquid dish soap. Put the tires in the hot soapy water, let them soak for ~5 minutes. Place the tire over the wheel and pull it down as far as you can. Have the third hand hold one side. Place the dowel as a pry bar under the tire near your hand and start prying the tire onto the rim while sliding your hand along behind the dowel to push/hold the tire onto the wheel. The tire will slide right onto the wheel. Once it is on, work the tire so the edges settle down completely into the rim of the wheel. Let the tire dry for at least 24 hours before use.

As Jim Davenport said in another recent thread: "Zip ties replace the "third" hand. Just use the zip ties as you work the tire around the wheel."

[Tom Trees]

This sounds alarming Eugene
I've not read of a saw throwing tires so frequent.

I've heard of the suggestion not to put "rubber" tires in hot water before installation on the Canadian forum,
and was also reading about the lifespan of urethane compared, 10 years(ish) it seems...(not that I hadn't seen those blue ones whip off on utube before)
I question if the hot water may have been the case before?
Love to know what flavour you've tried in the past, both tires and adhesive, guess you've tried more than one type/method before.

Guessing the saw is/was set up well, as in running quietly,
and no spelching of the underside of the cut, nor anything else evident.

I would question whether the plastic bearing spacer (if present on your machine) might be worn.
Mine was, and it mimicked what a blade with a bad weld does, as in fore and aft movement on the wheel. (but only when using a wide blade)
Obvious when you know what it should look like, and if quite similar to my machine and other Italian saws,
then have a look to see if either of the shafts are proud of the inner race on the wheels,
or if it's the opposite case and all is well ...
The inner race of the bearings should be proud on the shafts, so that the retaining washer is pressing on the inner race firmly.
Top one was gone on mine.
476076
Made a new one from some derlin like material, snuck up on the fit, good to keep onto old bearings!
476077
Now things are looking as they should, and the wheel is solid now, which it kinda was before...but noticeable when wheel was taken off.
476078



Just a thought.

Tom

[Ronald Blue]

I have no dog in this fight and only am throwing this out there as a thought. Since you don't replace tires but infrequently or rarely this probably isn't worth the trouble. I just picked these plastic/nylon automotive trim tools as I had to pull the headliner down in my truck. These were cheap and exactly what I needed. It was also beneficial when everything was going back together and getting the lip of the seal back on the trim. The flat tipped tool might work well in the installation of the bandsaw tire. It won't damage anything and it will slide with minimal resistance. Thoughts? This is something that came to mind with Lee's suggestion to craft a wooden tool for this.

harborfreight.com/trim-and-molding-tool-set-5-pc-64126.html

[Zachary Hoyt]

I've always installed urethane tires dry, but it's tiring. My new saw took me about 10 minutes of lying on the floor pulling as hard as I could and prying in between to get the lower one on, but I'm quite confident it will never come off on its own.

[Lee Schierer]

I've heard of the suggestion not to put "rubber" tires in hot water before installation on the Canadian forum,
and was also reading about the lifespan of urethane compared, 10 years(ish) it seems...(not that I hadn't seen those blue ones whip off on utube before)
I question if the hot water may have been the case before?

The instructions that came with the Grizzly tires said to place them in 150 degree water with soap for 5 minutes. I have read that water hotter than that can potentially do damage
such that the urethane will exceed its elastic limit and not shrink back to the proper size. I figure Grizzly knows what's best for their tires. I can't speak for other manufacturers tires.

[Mike Kees]

To me something seems wrong. I had to replace the tires on my Delta 14'' last year. They were original from 1989. They lost the elasticity to stay tight on the wheel when running. It does not seem right that you are going through tires this quickly . Especially when the last set were glued on. Does one wheel (top or bottom) show issues first every time ? It seems to me that most bandsaw tires get replaced when they harden/weaken with age more so than wearing out from use alone. I would try what Rod posted next as he is the only one who has posted here that has actually dealt with this problem.

[Eugene Dixon]

Thank you for all of the thoughts. For those asking/pondering, I've always bought tires from Felder/Hammer in Delaware. These have always been rubber tires. I have not added heat prior to installingr the tires on the Hammer. I have used warm to hot water to install urethane tires on my 14" Rockwell in another life. I don't have the Rockwell anymore. Don't think the water really helped all that much, personally.

The retaining washer on the shaft only contacts the inner race. There is no spacer on the Hammer, IIRC The saw runs fine when it runs. I had a 1" blade on the saw yesterday when the tire came off. This is the first time I've used this blade for any length of time. Previously, I don't recall what blade was on when the tires came off, but it was somewhere between 3/8" and 3/4" as that is about all I've used on this bandsaw. I have ceramic guides and check guide alignment each time I pull the saw out for use.

As to tensioning, I usually run the "needle" about half way into the area designated for the blade size. I have no idea of it's calibration status. I'll pluck the blade when it is returned to service.

Today, I pulled both wheels. The tire was already off the lower wheel. I pulled the tire off the the upper wheel. It seemed glued quite well.

I have two sets of plastic interior trim tools and find they have varied uses including installing bandsaw tires.

I placed an order with Sulpher Grove Tools for urethane tires today. Now to clean the glue off the wheels.

I'll keep you posted.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thank you for all of the thoughts. For those asking/pondering, I've always bought tires from Felder/Hammer in Delaware. These have always been rubber tires. I have not added heat prior to installingr the tires on the Hammer. I have used warm to hot water to install urethane tires on my 14" Rockwell in another life. I don't have the Rockwell anymore. Don't think the water really helped all that much, personally.

The retaining washer on the shaft only contacts the inner race. There is no spacer on the Hammer, IIRC The saw runs fine when it runs. I had a 1" blade on the saw yesterday when the tire came off. This is the first time I've used this blade for any length of time. Previously, I don't recall what blade was on when the tires came off, but it was somewhere between 3/8" and 3/4" as that is about all I've used on this bandsaw. I have ceramic guides and check guide alignment each time I pull the saw out for use.

As to tensioning, I usually run the "needle" about half way into the area designated for the blade size. I have no idea of it's calibration status. I'll pluck the blade when it is returned to service.

Today, I pulled both wheels. The tire was already off the lower wheel. I pulled the tire off the the upper wheel. It seemed glued quite well.

I have two sets of plastic interior trim tools and find they have varied uses including installing bandsaw tires.

I placed an order with Sulpher Grove Tools for urethane tires today. Now to clean the glue off the wheels.

I'll keep you posted.

Hi, as I posted earlier, please check blade tension and compare it to what the saw indicator says, every time I’ve had a customer with this issue it’s over tensioned blades….Regards, Rod

[Tom Trees]

The instructions that came with the Grizzly tires said to place them in 150 degree water with soap for 5 minutes. I have read that water hotter than that can potentially do damage
such that the urethane will exceed its elastic limit and not shrink back to the proper size. I figure Grizzly knows what's best for their tires. I can't speak for other manufacturers tires.

Thanks for digging those figures from Grizzly Lee,
I figure this is not so easy to achieve the optimum situation to achieve, maybe in summer.
I've got a undersized to fit "rubber" tire which looks like it would snap if I attempted to stretch it cold.
I've seen some use a heat gun for smaller machines, maybe that might be a better solution if the time ever comes to replace, and I go that route.


Hi, as I posted earlier, please check blade tension and compare it to what the saw indicator says, every time IÂ’ve had a customer with this issue itÂ’s over tensioned bladesÂ….Regards, Rod

Hardly able to overtension a 1" blade with this machine, folks like John with his hefty wee Grizzly mentioning figures along the lines of up to 25000 PSI
Are all these customers with those issues using urethane tires on their saws, Rod?
maybe a case of folks doing as you suggest with narrow blades, but they sound to me unsuitable for use on resawing machines if not the case.

Curious to see how this saw is setup Eugene, since it sounds like you don't hang about!
Have you tried alignment with the table off, suppose everyone has seen my posts about this by now.
Just sayin, as there seems to be a lot of folks which are taking chances regarding alignment, not levelling the machine, to use plumbline on wheels
depth of shaft and L/R adjustment of carriage on top wheel, and the east west adjustment to match top wheel...
About the best way I've found to be sure of anything, and quite interesting to note how much one little adjustment effects the rest.
476105
476103

Spelching/tearot of the underside of the work, and compressed set (possibly leading to many destroyed blades)
is a sign something is up with setup,
Presuming no vibration is evident on lower wheel when running without blade, since you've got not got an issue pulling the wheels off.

Sounds elusive whatever is wrong

Tom

[Eugene Dixon]

@Rod, will do. Need to make, borrow, or buy a tensionometer. Trying to put all my energy and resources into dust collection right now.
@Tom, not clear what you mean by this, "Curious to see how this saw is setup Eugene, since it sounds like you don't hang about!" I saw now issues with the cut quality. If fact I was rather pleased with what the blade was doing. The operator needs practice resawing, LOL. OBTW, I'm on the SC side of the CSRA. Stop by sometime and take a look at the saw. In the meantime, I'll look at the alignment when I can get some tension on the upper wheel.

FWIW, it was an afternoon of cutting green bowl blanks (walnut, cherry, dogwood, and I think a Bradford pear). Some of the end-grain checking meant some of the logs made it to the burn pile and some of it became some short 7-9" wide slabs, 8-20" long, and more pen blanks than I need to save. All of this was straight grain, no figure stuff. Not sure any of this paragraph is relevant.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, the tire came off this time, with a 1” blade, not so on previous times, I’ve only seen this on really old tires or on ones where smaller blades were seriously over tensioned.

Now, I’m also possibly wrong in this case…..Rod

[Mel Fulks]

We always glued the tires. All I’ve seen that were unglued came off the wheels. I do understand that some have no trouble with unglued
tires.

[Richard Coers]

I too think it is tension. Have you ever checked the tires for heat after running a bit? Maybe buy a Harbor Freight laser thermometer and quickly check the temp after running a bit. Then check again after doing a cut. You could be getting some slippage and that softens the tires.

[John K Jordan]

As to tensioning, I usually run the "needle" about half way into the area designated for the blade size. I have no idea of it's calibration status. I'll pluck the blade when it is returned to service.

…

Tension scales on bandsaws are notoriously inaccurate. To remove all doubt beg, borrow, or buy a tension gauge and use it to calibrate your bandsaw scale. I bought a Starrett gauge years ago from Iturra Design and use it on all my bandsaws and those of friends and club members. You can also make one, instructions elsewhere on this forum. I have the links but I’m not at home now.

JKJ

[Mark Paavola]

Eugene I just recently went thru the same issue with a Felder FB510 that is approx. 3 years old. Felder gave me new tires and said they had problems with their supplier. 1st replacement set last about 1 month. second set Felder said that I should glue them on. That just made the bandsaw run rough so I had to true up the tires. That set fell apart. So after three sets of Felder tires I went to urethane about a year ago and no issues since. Tires were coming off with a 1" blade and a 1/2" blade.

[Eugene Dixon]

Mark,
Very interesting.
Thanks

[Eugene Dixon]

Update 3/24
Yesterday, I spent a couple of hours cleaning glue from the wheels. Scrapping with a razor blade was slow. I found that soaking a rag in acetone and just rubbing the wheel was more effective.

While cleaning, I also tested the wheel bearings. Not good. They were obviously dry and the uppers barely turned. I checked the shafts on the bandsaw and didn't see any issues of wear so the bearings did not seem to be spinning on the shafts. I pulled both bearings the from both wheels. They were all NTN DU bearings. Owners manual calls out ZZ bearings. So, it appears they've been replaced. I don't understand why someone would put single sealed bearings on a bandsaw. I've ordered Timkin 2RS for replacements. A little more drag than ZZ but a better seal.

[Ted Baxter]

You might try Andy Klein's "Bandsaw Tensioning" app avalible in the apple app store for setting/checking the Tension. He has a youtube video demo it.

[Eugene Dixon]

Thank you Ted.

[Eugene Dixon]

Where's the Hammer/Felder Service Department for the NE? I've called several times. Emailed multiple times. Even had the sales rep contact me for intervention but no response for Support or Parts. I did see a posting for open jobs recently.

[Rod Sheridan]

Where's the Hammer/Felder Service Department for the NE? I've called several times. Emailed multiple times. Even had the sales rep contact me for intervention but no response for Support or Parts. I did see a posting for open jobs recently.


Hi Eugene, do you want me to email someone at Felder USA on your behalf?

Regards, Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

I would definitely go to urethane tires. I had a set on my 18" Jet for 7 years and they were as good as new. They are harder to stretch onto the wheel, but I can't imagine them getting thrown off.

Urethane tires lose their elasticity as well, most of the saws that had urethane tires I worked on shed large strips of tire suddenly according to the operator.

All tires fail with age, exposure to UV light and ozone….Rod

[Eugene Dixon]

I'm behind in updating this thread. I installed the urethane tires using a jig (video) from the supplier. The jig made it easy. Basically to 1/2" dowels one is the axis for the wheel and the other 'stretches' the tire. Took about 2 mins per wheel.

Replaced all the wheel bearings and replaced the spacers with house built items.

Checked the blade tension and could not get >15,000 psi on a 3/4" blade - just checking- but the spring seemed fully collapsed on one side. Trying to contact Felder (thanks for the offer Rod, PM sent) through customer service and regional sales rep. They must be very busy or very short of staff.

I cut out one bowl blank and detensioned the blade. Been working on dust collection since. Ordering ducting later this week, if I can get up the financial courage.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Eugene

Just read this thread. I have had a Hammer N4400 for some 10 years. I've yet to replace a tire, but likely to go to urethane when I do.

With regard dust collection, have a look at what I did. It may save some dollars.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/HammerN4400DustControl.html

There are a bunch of other mods for Hammer machines on my website ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/index.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[mike calabrese]

I have a real old junky budget Sears band saw, It is not very good quality but I have had it for 20 plus years and it was already a bunch of years old when I got it from the carpenter who gave it to me. I have used it off and on, never had any tire issues. The one thing I always do is take off the tension when I am done using the saw. A wide blade over tensioned could easily cause the rubber to cold flow when the tension is applied with the saw just sitting around. The tire under the blade will deform to some degree while the balance of the tire not contacting the blade will not . This will possibly cause the tire to walk as it transitions from the compressed portion to the static portion. Additionally the blade will interact differently with the tire compressed vs un-compressed from sitting idle . The condition is not unlike tires on a car flat siding when not rolled for periods of time. Also the rubber under blade tension while not in use might actually be sticking to the wheel with more tac than the balance of the tire that was not squeezed by the blade while idle. This will possibly add some walk to the tire when you run the saw. Just my thought not my experience .
mike calabrese

[Eugene Dixon]

Faithfully de-tension after each use, Mike. the encouragement and the insight is appreciated.

[Rod Sheridan]

Faithfully de-tension after each use, Mike. the encouragement and the insight is appreciated.

During 42 years of industrial experience I’ve never seen anyone detension a saw unless they were changing blades.

We don’t remove tension from any other devices either.

Unless you’re exceeding the rating of a spring, it is not affected by having force applied to it.

Regards, Rod

[Eugene Dixon]

Never saw a machinist detension a bandsaw blade during my career in equipment development in private industry, either. Just a habit I have gotten into for woodworking.

[Rod Sheridan]

Never saw a machinist detension a bandsaw blade during my career in equipment development in private industry, either. Just a habit I have gotten into for woodworking.

Yes, I know, I wonder where that approach came from?

Many people do it.

I can almost guarantee that I would forget to tension it before starting the saw at some point😀

Regards, Rod

[Lee Schierer]

Never saw a machinist detension a bandsaw blade during my career in equipment development in private industry, either. Just a habit I have gotten into for woodworking.

Metal working band saws do not have tires, so releasing the tension isn't necessary.

[Edward Weber]

IMO, I think the constant tensioning and de-tensioning are worse for the blade (metal fatigue) than leaving pressure on the tires.
Like some others, I'm not sure where this practice came from or what it is suppose to prevent but I don't do it and have not had a tire related issue related to it.

Just my two cents

[Edwin Santos]

The reason for detensioning that I've always been given has nothing to do with tires, the practice is claimed to reduce bearing fatigue.
I'll point out that I don't know if this is true or not, just what I've heard.

[John K Jordan]

The reason for detensioning that I've always been given has nothing to do with tires, the practice is claimed to reduce bearing fatigue.
I'll point out that I don't know if this is true or not, just what I've heard.

All I know is every bandsaw manual I've had, from shop saws to Woodmizer, indicated in the manual to always detension. So I do. After every day on the Woodmizer and when not planning to use the shop saws for more than a few days.

On the shop saw this reminds me to retension before use:

478602

JKJ

[Warren Lake]

was told blade stretch and compression on the tire. stroke sander you always take the tension off and best to hang them up. Torque wrench you zero when not used.

Ask a pro usually there are a few left at suppliers. Like sanding grit in wood from a wide belt or stroke sander. Ask a pro at a supplier and he will tell you or find someone in the company who knows.

[Eugene Dixon]

Hi Eugene, do you want me to email someone at Felder USA on your behalf?

Regards, Rod

PM sent.

Here are more characters to meet the limit.

[Mikail Khan]

I have always used urethane tires. Life is 1-4 years.

I bought a spare set (blue) for my 14" saw and it cracked up on the shelf. So blade tension was not the issue for me.

I have found that urathane tires lose their elasticity over time. I think the issue is "creep" which plastics are susceptible to especially at higher temps.

http://micro-f.co.jp/en/colum_20200324.html


Best experience so far is with orange tires from Grizzly or Sulphur grove tool.

Regards,

Mikail

[Eugene Dixon]

Felder called Friday and left a message. They called again today. Not a lot of technical help and everything I might want has to come from Austria or has to be fab'd in Austria.

Rep indicated they are developing a new green tire. Not sure if that is related to the environment or the color. Anyway, apparently they have a bump at the joint and won't release the new tire till they figure that out.

I'm thinking this thread can close.

[Warren Lake]

green for the enviro as lets cut up another tree?

Maybe for Kermit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51BQfPeSK8k

[Rod Sheridan]

Good one Warren, thanks for the humour……Rod

[Warren Lake]

Kermits father was Lou Forrigno.

Its best not to encourage me.

[Derek Cohen]

As mentioned earlier, I have had my Hammer N4400 for 10 years, and am still on the original tyre (Australian/English spelling). Of course, Murphy’s Law, this thread starts up and the tyre comes off. This was two weeks ago. I decided to order a blue Urethane version. This will no doubt take some weeks .. months .. to travel across the ocean. So in the meantime I used contact glue to still down the original type. Its condition is quite good, just stretched. This was not noticeable on the wheel (in unglued state). Clearly, it was not glued in the first place. Since doing so, it has remained tight and there has not been any suggestion of slipping.

I changed the belt as well. This was the original belt. After 10 years the rubber was still good, but it had stretched about 4” and was now at the limit of adjustability.

Regards from Perth

Derek