Quick question about laminated benchtop construction

[Luke Dupont]

Hi guys,

So, some of you may remember that my benchtop has some issues with warping due to my stupidly gluing some crossgrain pieces on the underside which should've been attached to the leg assembly instead.

Anyway, this means that I have to do some serious surgery on my benchtop. But it also means that, if I want, I have the opportunity to just quickly rebuild the benchtop, which would allow me to improve it a bit.

I currently have a few thoughts here.

One is to just do what I usually do, and buy a single, thick board to act as a benchtop. However, the place where I typically order wood and have it shipped to my door, has a maximum thickness of 45mm, which is just under 2". My current workbench is about 2 1/4" thick. But once I plane it flat, because it will almost surely have some slight twist or cupping (though, they are pre-planed and usually pretty close to perfect), I think I may lose at least 1/4", possibly 3/8 or even 1/2, which is getting too thin even for someone like myself who has always used thin workbenches.

So, my other option is to do a laminated construction, maybe with 2x4's. This would allow me to have a thicker benchtop, which may be preferable to reduce noise. I currently work in an apartment, and intend to keep my bench lightweight and portable, hence my current build. I definitely cannot have a huge, several hundred pound Roubo. But, I am thinking that a slightly thicker and heavier benchtop might go a long way towards reducing noise from sawing and chopping, which is a big deal in an apartment setting. And, 2x4's are cheap.

Lastly I could order some hardwood and laminate it. My options are beech, birch, cherry, ash, maple, oak, etc... but the most affordable hardwood is ash, beech, and birch. Which of these would you choose if you had a choice?

Or should I just save money and opt for 2x4's? To answer this question, I want consider the work involved. So, here's my real question and reason for asking this:

When laminating many narrow boards to make a bench top, as people do with 2x4's, would you plane the twist or cupping out of each board first, or just joint them, or do none of that and just laminate and glue them all together and squeeze them flat with clamps?

The 2x4's in my local BORG, even here in Japan, still aren't that pretty. Twisting, bowing, cupping, etc... If I have to plane each of these square before glue up... that's a lot of work, and I'd rather start with much better stock and order some nice hardwood which is more stable and has been planed and jointed.

All that said, I'll probably delay this project a bit for two reasons: 1. I've already got a working bench, 2. Not sure what my significant other will think if I start rebuilding the bench I just finished :eek:, 3. I'll be tempted to rebuild the leg assembly well and make my bench into a Moravian bench....... Not that there is any problem with my current leg assembly, but because I've always just wanted to try one of those also... But this compounds problem #2 and really is unnecessary... And, you know, I don't have room for two benches... So I really really should resist this urge. If I do not resist this urge, I will likely just build every bench under the sun before I'm happy (or to make me happy, because I love building benches and have no idea why). No, I need to focus on smaller things and be practical here...

Anyway, sorry -- this post is super rambly, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had this sort of dilemma :p

[William Fretwell]

Luke,

Your bench is very modest in size so it’s says good wood is affordable. Of the woods you mention Beech would be my top choice, lovely short grain durable hardwood. Getting it ready to laminate is one issue, lots more work, really needs to be planed flush, the thicker the top the more challenging. If you feel patient enough to do that the result will be worth it. This may be your only bench for some time based on your space considerations. Lots of clamps required!
A heavier bench is a bit quieter, some may argue a large softwood bench is quieter but you don’t have that space.

Don’t worry about what your wife thinks as you re-do the bench, just say you are learning! You need a bench to make a bench is a good line.

[Scott Clausen]

2X4's are not very straight as a general rule and will need some work. If in an apartment does this mean you are going use hand tools to flatten the boards? If yes you will get quite good at it I am sure. I used 2X10 or 2X12 SYP for my Moravian top. This allowed me to rip out the center portion and get two boards out of each. I think Paul Sellers makes a bench out of plywood and also 2X4's so it may be worth a look.

[Richard Hutchings]

I built mine out of 2x4s back when I had a thickness planer. If I was to do it again I'd us 2x10s cut in 2 for a 5 1/2# top. I'd try for zero knots on the edges and look for the best flat sawn boards. Thar way when stood on edge I'd have quarten sawn wood. This to me would make the top easier to hand plane because our wouldn't have to deal with grain direction changing all over the place. I've never had a hardwood bench so I don't have anything to compare it to, but I love mine.

[Rafael Herrera]

I'd go for 2x4s, as straight as you can get them. Clamp them together dry and see if they straighten and join without gaps. If they're all good, no need to do anything prior to gluing, if not, work only on the problematic ones. You could use 2x10 or 2x12, but be prepared for some movement after you rip them. Save yourself the effort and just get 2x4s.

[Jim Koepke]

The 2X4s here all have rounded corners that need to be removed on at least one edge if a smooth flat top is wanted.

You may also want to mark the grain on any wood you use so they can all be lined up for planing later.

My suggestion would be beech or ash if maple is too expensive. Birch is a little harder to work by hand.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

I have my best luck with construction lumber when I leave it stickered in my shop, at least one week, longer is better. Usually if a piece is going to move much later it will start moving in the first week at my house.

My next bench top will likely be birch, I can get locally grown, roughsawn, air dried 8/4 for right at one dollar per board foot. On my current top, Doug Fir 2x4 construction lumber I left the rounded corners on every piece until after glue up. Once the bench was together I got the top 'smooth enough', but I decided to get some wear and tear out of the exposed surface with all the parallel groves in it. One of my goals is to use the bench enough that I eventually get all those rounded corners planed away with ongoing flattening required because of having used the bench so much.

[Scott Clausen]

Whatever is used I would rip the round corners off and then rip the boards to the same width. I still have a planner so I would hand plane one side flat and then run the other through the planner and flip to reduce errors. If they look clampable then go for it. It does make me wonder if I could do all the flattening with hand planes. I love my hand saws but I am sure I would breakout the TS for that many long rips, no question.

[Jim Koepke]

Scott, Luke lives in an apartment and may not have access to a table saw, planner or joiner.

When laminating the pieces to be glued together do not have to be perfectly flat as long as they fit together.

At one time it occurred to me a glue lam (laminated beam) of 2X4 material could be purchased from a building supply retailer. Not sure if they are used in Japan.

My recollection is they tended to max out at ~21 inches wide and were sold by the foot. At the time 5 feet would have cost ~$125 local to my area.

Some building supply retailers do have the ability to run such a piece through a planer. They are often used for vaulted ceilings and do not show the rounded corners.

jtk

[Scott Winners]

At one time it occurred to me a glue lam (laminated beam) of 2X4 material could be purchased from a building supply retailer. Not sure if they are used in Japan.


This is a fabulous idea Jim. My church has gluelams of 2x6 at least 20" wide (visible) in the ceiling of the sanctuary holding up the second floor office space. I had never thought of buying a short piece of that to use as a bench top until you said it. I suspect I am due for an especially religious experience tomorrow morning. Thank you kind sir.

[Jim Koepke]

Another source would be from a bowling alley that is being demolished.

The problem there is many of them use metal pins/nails to hold the pieces together during gluing.

jtk

[Scott Clausen]

Scott, Luke lives in an apartment and may not have access to a table saw, planner or joiner.


jtk
Jim, I saw that but was wondering if he may have access to a storage locker or something.

[Charles Guest]

You can pick through the 2x4s and find enough that are straight and flat enough that you won't have to four-square each individual board. So don't.

Face laminated lumber moves through its thickness, and not its width. I had a workbench with a face laminated SYP top that finished at 3" thick, sitting under a carport for close to two years, and the top moved less than a sixteenth through its width.

[andy bessette]

...my benchtop has some issues with warping due to my stupidly gluing some crossgrain pieces on the underside...

Those issues are the result of your having ignored workbench design concepts that have been well proven over hundreds of years. Look at what has been successful in the past before deciding how to build.

[steven c newman]

Might be too late now...but...

2 grooves along the mating faces of the 2 x 4s...each 1/3 in from the edges. Width of the grooves to match a plywood spline...These not only add a bit of strength, they also help in aligning the parts in a glue up...

And, with the end caps in place...nobody will ever see those splines....

Just an idea....


The other idea....make a few sets of cauls....to help keep the parts level with each other during a glue up. Worried about them getting stuck to the glue-up? usually one whack with a mallet will knock them loose, and, since you plan to plane the surface anyway....will be easy to clean up. Both where they sat, and the cauls themselves...

[Jim Koepke]

My glue up cauls have packing tape on one edge. This make them easy to separate after a glue job.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

Those issues are the result of your having ignored workbench design concepts that have been well proven over hundreds of years. Look at what has been successful in the past before deciding how to build.


Not so much having ignored, as having misunderstood. I went with a bench design that was rather obscure and was just trying to figure out how the top and the leg assembly attached.

There's tons of information out there on certain bench types such as the Roubo or Moravian or English workbench, but nobody makes a turn of the century Sloyd bench!

If I had researched more broadly and looked at more similar benches such as Scandinavian benches, I would have perhaps realized my error I guess. I did that *after* realizing the problem. But even then, it's quite difficult to find pictures of the underside, and more difficult still to find any plans or people building truly traditional ones as opposed to construction methods meant for people using power tools and a lot of modern fasteners.

Anyway, I learned. And, ultimately, I agree with you. I have a huge appreciation for Historical designs. The more I solve problems and work through designing something, the more I realize just how cleverly the originals were designed, and I often catch myself wanting to change or "improve" something only to realize that, actually, I'd be making it worse or causing more trouble for myself down the road.

[Luke Dupont]

Might be too late now...but...

2 grooves along the mating faces of the 2 x 4s...each 1/3 in from the edges. Width of the grooves to match a plywood spline...These not only add a bit of strength, they also help in aligning the parts in a glue up...

And, with the end caps in place...nobody will ever see those splines....

Just an idea....


The other idea....make a few sets of cauls....to help keep the parts level with each other during a glue up. Worried about them getting stuck to the glue-up? usually one whack with a mallet will knock them loose, and, since you plan to plane the surface anyway....will be easy to clean up. Both where they sat, and the cauls themselves...

You mean a groove across the end grain, right?

I can see how some kind of groove and "joinery" could make it much easier to glue up...

[steven c newman]

Grooves run WITH the grain...2 grooves right on the face of the 2x4...Then a spline is glued in place in each groove, and then glued into the adjoining face of the next 2x4. and so on until the last glue joint.

[William Fretwell]

Luke,
My bench is Scandinavian type actually the Danes built the benches for the Scandinavians who then made furniture.
Attached are some pictures showing the attachment to the top and the underside of the bench. I made the tail vise twice as long for lots of reasons. The pictures show the sliding frame of the tail vise. I had no plans either, just designed my own. It works very well, no complaints at all.

476294
476295
476296
Hope they are of some help.

[lou Brava]

I used cheapest 2x4 I could find, picked through em, ripped a sq edge, built a glue jig that was perfectly flat & level to avoid any twist and extensive hand planing after glue up. I did it in 3 parts 1st was about 10-12 boards 2nd 8-10 boards third joined 2 parts together. The top came out very very flat and took very little hand planing. Super happy with result excpept I wish I would have used a better quality wood.
476383476384

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Luke I feel your frustration, I live in an apartment too and am also building a bench.

I chose to make a Roubo just a really short one. my working theory is a smaller bench needs to be thicker to not wander around the apartment floor.

In Europe beech is the preferred choice of wood for a bench

I am making mine by a very slow and inefficient method of planing 2 boards, laminating them together, coming back the next day and replaning them to add a third board and so on...
my theory is the laminate gets rid of a lot of potential built in tension that way. it also becomes less work each layer (1 board isn't likely to warp 5 laminated together)

Good luck!

[Richard Hutchings]

I wish I could afford 5" worth of maple for a top as well. My 2x4 top works very well though, it just doesn't look as nice or weigh as much. I always planed to load the bottom with sand bags. Haven't gotten round to it.

[andy bessette]

...my working theory is a smaller bench needs to be thicker to not wander around the apartment floor...

No. That will just make it top heavy. A small bench needs to be ballasted with weight added down low.

Mine has a cabinet built into the bottom in which I store coffee cans of nuts and bolts (used for weighting glue-ups). Additionally I store two 60-lb lead pigs and other scrap lead weights under the bench.

[mike stenson]

My current bench also has cabinets. They do add weight, but they also can become problematic. I tried to use them for tools, once, work holding constantly got in the way. Wood choice, IMO, is all about what's available locally. Although, I am in no way going to build my next bench out of mesquite.

[Jim Koepke]

My bench is a lightweight and would move all over when edge planing large pieces. An 80 pound bag of concrete helped solve the problem:

476386

A notch is cut out of the bottom of the bucket to sit on the lower runner on the bench leg.

More here > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?119667

jtk

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

No. That will just make it top heavy. A small bench needs to be ballasted with weight added down low.

1. top heavy is still heavy. Right now I have one half of a split top route on sawhorses and it barely moves when I plane. Double the top weight, and add substantial legs and the thing will be rock solid

2. I still plan on building a built in chest of drawers into the bench. But that will likely take a few years

[William Fretwell]

Top heavy gives it inertia, very good for planing. Rigid frame transfers the forces to the floor before deformation occurs. Heavy rigid frame even better. It is lovely to have a bench that just does not move.