Simple dovetails? Continued

[James Pallas]

After sawing and chiseling the pin waste I mark the tails from the pins with a pencil. I chisel the waste and go for a fit. Not bad but I’ll try again. I sawed off and started again with a different number of tails. Better this time right off the saw. Cleaned them up a bit with a Jack plane that was already out. The last photo is some from a while back done the same way but half lap. Obviously using better material, not totally flat sawn, and a better saw would be nicer. A little warm up helps though. A backsaw a pencil a square works well for me.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

A little warm up helps though.

Usually when it has been awhile since my last set of dovetails a practice round or two also helps my results.

jtk

[Mike Brady]

Practicing dovetailing is (obviously) the best way to get better at making them. I use 4 x 1/2" and 4 x 3/4" poplar boards to practice corners and have done literally hundreds of these corners over the years. It is also a good way to try techniques like the blue-tape method (It works, but is a slow process). Never have used a jig (except for layout); not have I ever done the pins first. Study your mistakes and learn from them. The whole thing depends on being able to saw to a line.

[Derek Cohen]

I never practice dovetailing, unless it is a new joint not cut before. What I do is a few practice vertical kerfs in scrap of the same wood. This lets me get a feel for the hardness and chippiness. I can then choose one of the several dovetail saws to match best. The second habit is to start with the least-seen corner (underneath a cabinet), getting my practice there.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Mike I guess I didn’t explain well enough. My whole point is to work with fewer tools and fewer steps. The only lines I work to are the penciled base line on the pin board and the penciled marks for the tails from the pin board to the tail board. The rest is done by eye no marks. The pin angles the vertical cuts are done with no tools or marks.
Jim

[steven c newman]

Test fits do help, too..
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Shows where a tad bit of pare work MIGHT be needed....

Sawing TO a line....does not matter with pins first, as the Tails have to match whatever cuts were made to make the pins....Then saw, LEAVING the lines on the tails, by cutting on the waste side of the traced lines.

Pins: Cut the lines, split the lines, leave the lines...Does not matter....as whatever you wind up with as the pins, will be the "pattern" for the tails...THEN you leave the lines by cutting on the waste side..and then pare as needed for the best fit.


Can practice all day on soft woods, as they will compress a bit during a fit up.....hardwoods, like the Ash/Oak in the above photo...do not compress, they simply will split.
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Simple layout tools...then a mallet and a chisel..or three...and a SHARP No.2 pencil.....Maybe a knife wall on the base line?

Some stand up and do dovetails, that is why they NEED the Moxxon....others, like me..simply sit down on a stool....
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And use the vise on the end of my bench, to doing a bit of saw work...my elbow is parallel to the floor while I saw. I also chop sitting down....
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Pins, and
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Tails....old piece of 3/4" plywood to protect to top of the bench...and a clamp...as I don't care for a part bouncing around the bench's top.

Hmm, fret saw ... vs...half blind dovetails....maybe for the tails would work...but...??

[Jim Koepke]

Mike I guess I didn’t explain well enough. My whole point is to work with fewer tools and fewer steps. The only lines I work to are the penciled base line on the pin board and the penciled marks for the tails from the pin board to the tail board. The rest is done by eye no marks. The pin angles the vertical cuts are done with no tools or marks.
Jim

Interesting, in watching others make dovetails with out first laying them out it seems it is always done pins first. Seems like one reason for sawing pins first.

jtk

[James Pallas]

Interesting, in watching others make dovetails with out first laying them out it seems it is always done pins first. Seems like one reason for sawing pins first.

jtk
It can be done either way. It is simply easier to put the pin board on the tail board to mark. If you do tails first it turns into a balancing act to do the marking.
Jim

[James Pallas]

Actually it wasn’t practice more of a warm up. Haven’t done any for the better part of a year. Testing 75 year old motor skills and the memory to boot.😉

[Jim Koepke]

It can be done either way. It is simply easier to put the pin board on the tail board to mark. If you do tails first it turns into a balancing act to do the marking.
Jim

Yes, in the quest to use as few tools as possible this would also be a valid point for doing pins first.

Adding a couple of small clamps and straight edges makes marking pins from tails quite easy:

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The piece is clamped against the base line of the tails and makes registering against the pin board a breeze. For me it is less hassle than using the rabbet trick on the tail board.

jtk

[mike stenson]

It can be done either way. It is simply easier to put the pin board on the tail board to mark. If you do tails first it turns into a balancing act to do the marking.
Jim

But I gotta cut all the tail boards independently, instead of all at once ;)

Pretty much all the shop furniture dovetails were cut tails first, without layout. The rabbet trick works well for larger casework IMO, but it's a pain for drawers.

[Jack Dover]

I'm looking at the kerfs and it seems that your saw should have less set - those dark glue lines will just disappear. Sharpening would help too, will reduce blowout. Sharpness is really important here, since for tails first method crisp arrises on the long grain are vital - they're your ruler essentially.

Also, looking at the layout lines it seems that your pieces aren't properly squared. Definitely try less tails, on a piece this wide I would go with 2 tails, maybe 3 tails if you can cut slender pins.

It might seem as secondary concerns, but let me assure you that a good joint is a combination of all factors.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm looking at the kerfs and it seems that your saw should have less set - those dark glue lines will just disappear. Sharpening would help too, will reduce blowout. Sharpness is really important here, since for tails first method crisp arrises on the long grain are vital - they're your ruler essentially.

Also, looking at the layout lines it seems that your pieces aren't properly squared. Definitely try less tails, on a piece this wide I would go with 2 tails, maybe 3 tails if you can cut slender pins.

It might seem as secondary concerns, but let me assure you that a good joint is a combination of all factors.


Jack makes an interesting point. I might argue, though, that the kerf gaps are likely more a reflection of transferring marks less tightly than desired. This is really where my blue tape method scores - you are in no doubt where to saw!

I recently made a dovetail saw with a 0.015" thick plate. This is thin like a Japanese saw - the average Western dovetail saw uses a 0.20" plate. I used what I thought was just enough set, and the saw performs well. But I think that there are a few stray teeth - Jack, what do you think?

Here is the side cut away to show the effect of the set on the shoulder wall, as well as the rear of the board for spelching ...



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakingADovetailSaw_html_m3538e912.jpg


rear of board ....

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakingADovetailSaw_html_m27c8ce1.jpg




What I plan to do is use a technique from Mike Wenzloff: wrap a sheet of photocopy paper around the teeth, and then tap the teeth (with a gennou) on a flat cast iron surface (Mike used a special vise, which I do not have). The paper prevents the set being flattened more than the thickness of the paper.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I'm looking at the kerfs and it seems that your saw should have less set - those dark glue lines will just disappear.

Another way to make glue lines disappear is to not use any glue.

One drawer in my shop was built just shy of a decade ago when it was too cold to glue in the shop:

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My plan was to glue it up come spring. It has remained tight over the years.

Another project was not glued incase of desired changes:

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This is a box of ash made to hold coffee filters in the pantry. It has held together without glue for a little over a year now.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Gotta smile reading this Jim.

That's a nice box.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the kind words Derek.

We buy our coffee filters at Costco. They come wrapped in plastic. One of my thoughts was to make it with an angled bottom to make it a little easier to pull out one filter at a time. That turned out to be overly complicated.

jtk