Is there a market for basic cars, appliances,etc?

[dennis thompson]

I was reading the thread about the GE refrigerator which had a chip in the water filter that didn’t work. We all hear that the car makers can’t make cars because of a chip shortage. I have a washing machine with a menu I’ve never used. I have two cars , a 2015 Honda Pilot and a 2017 Nissan pickup, they both have buttons I’ve never used. I have tools for 20 years with variable speeds which I’ve never changed
How about a washing machine the has one button, on/off. Or a car sold with no options , one color , one engine,a/c, auto trans,, etc. ( now that I think of it, didn’t Henry Ford offer that:))
is there a market for basic stuff, no bells or whistles?
( Maybe this question should be in the “ you know your getting old when” thread::)

[Anthony Whitesell]

There is for me. If the computer manfuacturer stops supporting your computer it is because it is too old and technology has moved on. OK, fine. A computer costs what? $1k? When a car manufacturer stops supporting a part for your car what are you supposed to do? Buy another car? For what $20k? $30k? $68k? The $68k figure is listed for a reason. My truck is a 2016 Ford F350. It came with Ford Sync. On July 1, 2017 (yes, at most one year after it was built) Ford discontinued the Ford Sync service. I did not buy the truck in 2016 and new. I purchased it in 2018 used. So the fact that Ford discontinued the Sync service doesn't bother me. But what about the original owner and every other owner of 2016 Ford vehicles, they all just got a feature they paid good money for shut off with nothing they can do about it. I recently worked on a car where the brake line between the master cylinder and the ABS manifold rusted through. There are two lines. GM discontinued one but not the other. I ask service advisors and/or service techs at four different dealerships what they would do if I dropped the vehicle off and asked them to repair it. Two of them told me since the part were not available they would not be able to repair it. So yeah, for the smart people out there, there is a market for basic cars/appliances.

As far as I can tell, my car only needs to have a few things:
1. decent acceleration
2. good gas mileage
3. fog lights
4. cruise control
5. standard transmission
(6. sunroof would be nice)

They can keep all the rest of the "emmenties". I don't need ABS (I know how to actualy drive and not just make the car go down the road). I don't need TPMS. I don't need a built in GPS that I have to pay for updates or may break and cost tons of money to have repaired (smart phone + dash mount = GPS that I don't have to pay extra for current maps which I am gauranteed to be able to get). I don't need the extra expense of an automatic transmission. If the past 507k miles (257k on one car and 250k on this one), I have spent a whopping total of $7.95 of the transmission. That was because the CV boot joint died and I had to replace the axle (because they didn't make a repair boot that fit) and in doing so I lost a quart of gear oil which cost $7.95 to replace.

As for applicances. I fear the same and similar things to the OP reference (GE water filter chip). What if GE stops making the water filter? Then what? Buy another new fridge? Everyone is so worried about the amount of trash being created and the manufacturers are one cause of it. Perhaps the fridge has a design flaw and the water line is routed too close to the freezer and freezes shut so the water dispenser won't work (I know two people that bought similar model Whirlpool fridges that had the same problem). Convienent, but what if it breaks? What if they don't make the parts for it any more? Too bad they don't have you-pull-it yards for applicances (LOL). Someone local tried to start one for lawn equipment. I liked the idea, but it didn't last long.

These are valid things to consider during your major purcahses. So go basic and save yourself the headache in the long run.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am starting to think seriously about making myself a utilitarian electric vehicle. Either an old VW, Isuzu Pup or Chevy Luv conversion, or something bicycle based. Street legal is big a challenge. It needs to have wind and rain protection, carry one adult, a dog, and some tools. with a range of 30 miles and a speed of 20 MPH or more.
Mostly dreaming, and doing research.

[dennis thompson]

I am starting to think seriously about making myself a utilitarian electric vehicle. Either an old VW, Isuzu Pup or Chevy Luv conversion, or something bicycle based. Street legal is big a challenge. It needs to have wind and rain protection, carry one adult, a dog, and some tools. with a range of 30 miles and a speed of 20 MPH or more.
Mostly dreaming, and doing research.
The electrician who has done work for me is in the process of converting a Volkswagen Beetle to electric

[Dave Fritz]

My answer, sign me up, yes.

[Ron Citerone]

Yes, within reason. I stated in another thread, I am philosophically opposed to ice makers, water at fridge door and garbage disposals. Most people think I’m crazy. I suspect on this forum many would agree that simpler is better in many ways.

I am all for progress, but marketing ploys that make things complicated to a fault are making things and our lives way more complicted than they need to be.

[Roger Feeley]

A repairman told us once that we should never let go of our washer and dryer. He said that we had the last of the fully electro-mechanical machines and that anything newer would have electronics. We moved and let the machines go with the house. We have compact machines now that are heavily electronic. We pay $7/mo each for extended warranties. We pay the same for our fridge and range. I used to scoff at extended warranties but I’m a believer now.

but count me in for a simpler car. My hope is that the electric ones will be simple.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We searched thoroughly for a non digital gas range back in 2002 and it was hard to find back then. In many ways our technology has out-paced our common sense. Grandma's neighbor made himself an electric car when my mom was little. I think it is still in the museum in Corydon Iowa. Those electric VWs sure are neat!

[Jim Becker]

Vehicle manufacturers often do offer "base" versions of many models, but there's limited demand for them. And even those really need to have current generation safety features which require some level of electronics. EVs will be "mechanically simpler", but obviously will be more complex electronically, even for base models.

There are basic appliances available. There's a limited market for them, too, and a lot of that goes into low-end apartments and in "builder special" packages that often get upgraded by the folks actually buying a home.

Personally, I like the bells and whistles...

[Andrew More]

I think the answer to this, like a lot of things, is it depends.

I can't help noticing how many people want a simplier car, but then ask for good gas mileage. We'll ignore the issues with the complexity built into the ICE engine itself, and point out that one of the uses for chips on cars is good gas mileage, so there are trade offs. Not so sure I'd want electric seat heaters.....

Also I have buttons on my 2016 car that I haven't used, starting with the trip tracker, and also the emergency blinkers.

The reason they're there is that it's easier to just include them, same with power windows, power breaks.

While it sound reasonable to have a "simplier" car for people who like that, the truth is that it's simplier for the manufacturer to build one model, or a couple of models that have more features and not have to track the additional skus. So simplier for whom? There's a reason why you can't get the "simplier" manual transmissions anymore, not enough demand. Also a lot of options that weren't standard have become so over time. Does anybody really want a car without a radio, ac, or an electric starter?

@Maurice - what you've described is a golf cart. No joke, look it up, they're relatively cheap, and in demand for the uses you're talking about.

[Mike Henderson]

As far as EVs go, I want all the features possible. I did some serious research on EVs about a year ago with the intention of buying one. My problem is that many of the non-Tesla EVs just don't have the features that I want yet. Tesla was just way ahead in the software development area. I don't know if I can remember all the features I was looking for but one was "Dog mode" which allows you to park the car and leave the air conditioning on (if you have to leave your dog in the car). Another was display of cars around you on the screen. I want to be able to look at the screen and see a representation of where all the cars are that are close to me. The cars have all these sensors for self driving so this should be easy to do.

There were a few more features that I can't think of now. I had a list of features I want in priority order. After all this chip shortage settles down I'll go looking again. One thing I didn't like about the Tesla was that the ride was too harsh. They targeted the cars at performance driving and I want comfortable driving - a much smoother suspension. Jaguar had a good smooth ride but was way behind on software features.

My problem was that too many of the cars were just too basic - just a replacement for an ICE car. There's so much you can do now that there's powerful processors in the car that I want to see the manufacturers go crazy with features. It's just software so it only adds to the development cost and not to the vehicle cost.

Mike

[The Tesla Dog mode was pretty sophisticated. You set how much battery you want to preserve and if it gets close to that level, it sends you a message on your smartphone. You don't want to run the car all the way down or you wouldn't be able to get home. The AC doesn't draw a lot of power, especially compared to moving the car.]

[Andrew More]

I think the other question is what are we trading simplicity for?

Take GPS. It's a system that requires multiple satellites in orbit around the earth, synchronized via an atomic clock, and communicating with the ground via radio waves, which are received by the receiver which triangulates position, calculates it, and displays the results on a display made up of millions of little electronic dots. OR you could use a piece of paper. Yet GPS is often times the better approach, because the piece of paper forces a lot of complexity onto the user, including route planning, estimation of position, and errors in reading the piece of paper can be catastrophic.

The piece of paper will work without electricity, or the satellites, but I don't see anybody selling paper maps anymore. If you ask anybody, they'll tell you the GPS is "simplier" to use.

[Greg Funk]

I swapped an old 911 that met most of your requirements for a Tesla that also meets most of those requirements in different ways. Many aspects of the EV are simpler than a conventional ICE car - no transmission, virtually no brake maintenance etc. With a Tesla, the interior is more Spartan than any vehicle ever although some don't like the lack of conventional controls. It all works because Tesla is a thriving company however. If they went under the car wouldn't work so well.

On the old 911 (964) it's interesting that resale value for non-turbo versions is inversely proportional to the number of features they're equipped with. The convertibles are worth the least and the highest value ones are complete 'strippers' that sold for the least originally - no AC, no sunroof, no armrests on the door, 2wd.

[Kev Williams]

the no-frills vehicle thing has been done--
475943
'nuff said? ;)
Question: would you ever buy one?

No frills appliances that work fine, no problem- :)
475946

And back to no-frills vehicles, the absolute King of them all (IMO):
475947
these things hardly changed from 1960 to 1982...
Question: would you ever buy one?

Like most other Americans, I like reasonably unique stuff, especially cars.
And if it's not unique enough for me, I'll do something about it!
When I inherited my mom's plainjane Stratus, I got busy with the vinyl cutter
and got new wheels and tires, and voila-
475951
-the only one like it (at least around here anyway) :D (my son's owned this car since 2015)

There IS a market for inexpensive stuff that works, but flashy stuff seems to sell better... :)

[Lee DeRaud]

I think the other question is what are we trading simplicity for?

Take GPS. It's a system that requires multiple satellites in orbit around the earth, synchronized via an atomic clock, and communicating with the ground via radio waves, which are received by the receiver which triangulates position, calculates it, and displays the results on a display made up of millions of little electronic dots. OR you could use a piece of paper. Yet GPS is often times the better approach, because the piece of paper forces a lot of complexity onto the user, including route planning, estimation of position, and errors in reading the piece of paper can be catastrophic.

The piece of paper will work without electricity, or the satellites, but I don't see anybody selling paper maps anymore. If you ask anybody, they'll tell you the GPS is "simplier" to use.Two observations on GPS:
1. Yeah, the paper map will work without electricity or the satellites. Problem is, a lot of the scenarios that make the electricity and satellites go away will also result in the car being pulled by a horse.
2. I'm continually amazed by the number of people (not you, or hopefully anyone here) who think GPS was invented so they won't get lost on the way to Home Depot.

Re paper maps: if you happen to live in southern California, the printed version of Thomas Guides is still available. :)

[Brian Elfert]

Take GPS. It's a system that requires multiple satellites in orbit around the earth, synchronized via an atomic clock, and communicating with the ground via radio waves, which are received by the receiver which triangulates position, calculates it, and displays the results on a display made up of millions of little electronic dots. OR you could use a piece of paper. Yet GPS is often times the better approach, because the piece of paper forces a lot of complexity onto the user, including route planning, estimation of position, and errors in reading the piece of paper can be catastrophic.


GPS was mainly developed for military use. It was intentionally degraded for civilian uses for a number of years.

Up until 2014 I was still using maps and printed directions from Mapquest or Google Maps. It is a pain to drive and try to read printed directions. GPS navigation on a phone is much easier with the turn by turn directions. Sure, people made maps works for years, but it doesn't necessarily mean maps are better. Some service people would never give up their GPS navigation as they save a lot of time versus finding their next location on a map and figuring out how to get there.

[Edward Weber]

Well it's already been said but it depends.
I would however consider my default position to be a preference for over-built and under-engineered.
Technology is great but sometimes it can be used in ways that don't benefit the consumer. Just look at the right to repair situation as an example.

[roger wiegand]

I find GPS to be much simpler to use than paper maps. Never have figured out what use a piece of paper without a "you are here" dot on it is when you're lost and need a map. (Yes, I spent a lot of time wandering in the wilderness in my youth. It's a wonder I didn't die.)

Basic, or relatively basic, appliances and such are still available. People just don't much want them. You can get an excellent, but very basic "made in USA" SpeedQueen washer with about two mechanical buttons on it that will probably outlive you. Problem is they cost double what one with lots of bells and whistles costs. I have a gas range where only the igniters are electrical; everything else is mechanical. it works when the power is out. There's no reason it shouldn't last forever. Again it is about 3x the price of one with all the electronic gizmos and an expected lifetime of four years.

Last I checked (it's been a few years) you could still place a fleet order for a F150 with a manual transmission, untinted windows, hand-cranked windows, no radio, no AC, no back seat, and only two doors. They didn't charge extra for that, but they also don't readily sell them through regular consumer channels. The market for them among the truck-driving public is about zero, vs the $60+K versions rolling off the lots these days.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I would definitely prefer simpler appliances and cars in some respects. Luckily there still are refrigerators made without any water or ice dispensing involved, and I will be buying one this spring. Having lived with a commercial refrigerator for 20+ years it will be nice to have something that isn't quite so loud, and I won't need that much space inside it either. I prefer crank windows and am not fond of seat heaters, but as a used car buyer I buy what I can get a good deal on locally. More complexity to achieve greater efficiency seems worthwhile to me, but to have a motor and controller to move the window up and down just seems silly, since I have arms that can do that very easily and with no electricity required. I am another person who is strongly anti-garbage disposal. They seem to me like a way to create at least three problems while solving one problem badly, and that is not my idea of the way to get things done.

[Andrew More]

Up until 2014 I was still using maps and printed directions from Mapquest or Google Maps. It is a pain to drive and try to read printed directions. GPS navigation on a phone is much easier with the turn by turn directions. Sure, people made maps works for years, but it doesn't necessarily mean maps are better. Some service people would never give up their GPS navigation as they save a lot of time versus finding their next location on a map and figuring out how to get there.

Yeah, I remember, and I'll do you one better. I remember doing tour planning using paper maps to go from one state to another and hoping I didn't miss a turn or get lost.

I would agree with your assertion that GPS is better, but I would question which approach is simpler.
I've got similar reservations about other tools. Let's take a table saw or a powered jointer. Both are more complex mechanically, but once setup I would argue are simpler and easier to use than their hand powered counterparts.
So I think that a lot of things that are seen as "simpler" beg the question in relation to what, or for what tasks. Even the idea of using a car instead of walking, or a washing machine instead of a tub of suds implies a certain level of sophistication. Even the hand tools I mentioned require a certain level of technology to make them possible.

So I feel the question is more: can I buy basic devices that satisfy a certain level requirements that address my most common usages.

Oh, and that's before we talk about complexity to address externalities. I mean the idea of a muffle and catalytic converter on a car are increased complexity that isn't necessary to it's purpose, but they do make the user less obnoxious to those around them. We've seen this with other safety devices on vehicles, I suspect a lot of the sensors for determine people and other collision targets are going to become mandatory over time.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I've never used a GPS. I use Google maps to look up an unfamiliar location, then I take notes on paper as to any details I may need to know, or I leave the map on the screen and take the computer with me for reference since it has a nice blue line that shows my route. I carry a NY state atlas and gazetteer in the car when I'm going someplace new, and a map of Syracuse when I am going there to a new place since it has more detail. I also have a road atlas for the US, though I haven't been out of NY since 2011 as far as I can remember. I recently upgraded from a 1998 US atlas to a 2019 edition that was in a free stuff box on the side of the road. Lots of people who have come here by GPS have done fine, but many others have gotten lost or gone far out of their way for no apparent reason.

[Kev Williams]

I think the other question is what are we trading simplicity for?

Take GPS. It's a system that requires multiple satellites in orbit around the earth, synchronized via an atomic clock, and communicating with the ground via radio waves, which are received by the receiver which triangulates position, calculates it, and displays the results on a display made up of millions of little electronic dots. OR you could use a piece of paper. Yet GPS is often times the better approach, because the piece of paper forces a lot of complexity onto the user, including route planning, estimation of position, and errors in reading the piece of paper can be catastrophic.

The piece of paper will work without electricity, or the satellites, but I don't see anybody selling paper maps anymore. If you ask anybody, they'll tell you the GPS is "simplier" to use.

GPS ain't perfect. Just got a phone call 1/2 hour ago from a customer who couldn't find our house (I get these calls all the time)- The reason is because our actual numerical street address -1520- doesn't exist in the GPS database, so your GPS will just take a guess. The street it was added to in the early '60's, 1530, works every time...

[Lee DeRaud]

It's not GPS' fault that Garmin or Google Maps or whoever built the database some car's nav system uses doesn't know where a particular house is located.

GPS only tells you where you are, it has no idea where you're going. And it doesn't work with street addresses.

[Lee Schierer]

GPS ain't perfect. Just got a phone call 1/2 hour ago from a customer who couldn't find our house (I get these calls all the time)- The reason is because our actual numerical street address -1520- doesn't exist in the GPS database, so your GPS will just take a guess. The street it was added to in the early '60's, 1530, works every time...

Bear in mind that GPS is the satellite system. The devices in cars, boats, airplanes, etc use the satellite system position on the world information to correlate street/highway locata data from the device data bases put together by the manufacturer to display on the device. Many of these manufacturing data packages contain errors. If you end up in the wrong place it is not the fault of the GPS system. You can usually report data base errors to the device manufacturer to get it fixed.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Still use a MAP for directions. Going to our daughters, using GPS, adds over an hour and fifty miles to the trip. Drive older simpler vehicles. Work truck is 1988 Mitsubishi, and van I drive is 1984 Ford Areostar. Both have close to 250K on them. As for gas milege, how many more miles per gallon would I have to get to off set the $50,000 cost of a new vehicle, into which I would still have to put gas. At five bucks a gallon, I would need to save over ten thousand gallons to off set cost of new vehicle. Remember new vehicle would have much greater tax costs, along with insurance. As for appliances, we still have a Kenmore washer (top load) and Kenmore dryer, both of which I can fix. Being on well, and septic, water saving isn't an issue. My old GE Pot Scrubber dishwasher still does the dishes just fine, plus it takes less than 45 minutes to do a load. Same goes for washer.

[roger wiegand]

GPS ain't perfect. Just got a phone call 1/2 hour ago from a customer who couldn't find our house (I get these calls all the time)- The reason is because our actual numerical street address -1520- doesn't exist in the GPS database, so your GPS will just take a guess. The street it was added to in the early '60's, 1530, works every time...

You can fix this by reporting the error to one of the mapping services. Doing it through Google is easy see the instructions here (https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3094088?hl=en). It will take several months to propagate through all the systems (longer if people are using standalone GPS receivers and don't update their databases), but eventually you will be in there in the correct place.

[Lee DeRaud]

You can fix this by reporting the error to one of the mapping services. Doing it through Google is easy see the instructions here (https://support.google.com/maps/answer/3094088?hl=en). It will take several months to propagate through all the systems (longer if people are using standalone GPS receivers and don't update their databases), but eventually you will be in there in the correct place.
I live on a single-block cul-de-sac. In the dim infancy of Google Maps, I discovered that my street was mislabeled, some completely arbitrary name that doesn't exist anywhere in the area. The odd bit was that, if you searched for my address with the correct street name, it had no trouble at all finding it: the map showed it in the correct location and the provided directions would get you there. Took about a month after I reported it before it showed up correctly.

Another oddity has to do with the fact that my city is "left-handed". Most cities have even numbers on the south and west sides of streets, and odd numbers on the north and east sides...mine is reversed for north-south streets. So the directions Google Maps provides always shows "destination on the left", even though the map shows that it is on the right, A perfect case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing. :)

[Brian Elfert]

Last I checked (it's been a few years) you could still place a fleet order for a F150 with a manual transmission, untinted windows, hand-cranked windows, no radio, no AC, no back seat, and only two doors. They didn't charge extra for that, but they also don't readily sell them through regular consumer channels. The market for them among the truck-driving public is about zero, vs the $60+K versions rolling off the lots these days.

The F-150 XL comes standard with automatic transmission, A/C, and manual windows these days. It has a touchscreen because of the federally mandated rear view camera. The trick would be actually ordering and getting one these days. Ford is putting orders for the higher optioned pickups ahead of the base models. When there is a chip shortage they want to use available chips to build the more profitable variations first. The last year for a manual transmission in a F-150 was 2008.

[Jim Becker]

GPS ain't perfect. Just got a phone call 1/2 hour ago from a customer who couldn't find our house (I get these calls all the time)- The reason is because our actual numerical street address -1520- doesn't exist in the GPS database, so your GPS will just take a guess. The street it was added to in the early '60's, 1530, works every time...
GPS and mapping services are only as good as they are fed...the address issue you mention is typically because the local jurisdiction and/or the post office hasn't officially designated that house number in official records correctly or they haven't put in place a numbering system that's properly geo-located. (it's supposed to be correct because the 911 system relies on it) There unfortunately still are pockets of that in the country where stuff remains unresolved for this, even after all these decades when there was a designated system to normalize things.

"What" GPS system one uses can make a difference, too. I'm not in any way, shape or form fond of in-vehicle "native" GPS navigation systems because even with the "latest" map data loaded, they are sometimes a year or more behind reality. It's kinda like working with paper maps that have been in the glove box for a number of years. :) I find Google Maps and Apple Maps to be generally on par at this point, although I prefer Google Maps overall and have been using it for a long time now. CarPlay and AndroidAuto have made this a lot more convenient and safer for folks who have more recent vehicle models with the feature, too.

[dennis thompson]

I use GPS all the time and,yes it does make a mistake on occasion, but without it I make a lot more mistakes than it does.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I am starting to think seriously about making myself a utilitarian electric vehicle. Either an old VW, Isuzu Pup or Chevy Luv conversion, or something bicycle based. Street legal is big a challenge. It needs to have wind and rain protection, carry one adult, a dog, and some tools. with a range of 30 miles and a speed of 20 MPH or more.
Mostly dreaming, and doing research.

EV West makes kits for old school VW conversion to electric. Base price $7500
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40

[Kev Williams]

I bought a 2004 chevy van back in 2015 for my wife's dad to drive around. Paid $1300 for it from a dealer. Dad failed the driving test (he was 88 at the time I think) so I got it back. Our son-in-law used it for nearly a year, a granddaughter used it for about 8 months, I've driven in between and ever since. I paid my cousin the mek-a-nick a couple hundred bucks to change the thermostat and fix a loose ABS wire. That's the extent of repair bills...

Had a bought something more in the mid $20k range, I'd have shelled out probably $380-ish a month for 6 years, or about $27,500.
Average gas prices in the last 2 years appear to be about $2.85 a gallon. Average now is around $4.50-ish, about $1.70 extra...
15,000 miles a year / 18 mpg = 833 gallons..
At $2.85 = $2375 per year
At $4.50 = $3750 per year
difference: $1375, / 12 months = $114.53 extra per month...
that's about 1/3 of a car payment :)

Now, think about how many cars get ONLY 18 mpg, and at that rate @ 15k miles yearly, even $115 a month doesn't sound that all that bad. (I know several people who are paying more than that in CC interest every month)

I just got my new electric equal-pay bill for the next 12 months, dropped $77 per month :)

All I'm driving at is, there are ways, aside from home-building a new vehicle, to whittle down the outgo ;)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We searched thoroughly for a non digital gas range back in 2002 and it was hard to find back then. In many ways our technology has out-paced our common sense. Grandma's neighbor made himself an electric car when my mom was little. I think it is still in the museum in Corydon Iowa. Those electric VWs sure are neat!

Here is the car. Mom was a young lady (rather than little).

476057 476058

[Maurice Mcmurry]

EV West makes kits for old school VW conversion to electric. Base price $7500
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=40

Right On! Thanks. I just need to find a VW Thing, Or Karmann Ghia

[Scott Winners]

I will go with yes and no. I used to own, exclusively, first generation small block Chevy engines (1955-1992) in all my vehicles. It has been 30+ years since the kids at Jiffy Lube sent a stranger to my driveway with a carburetor problem, but I knew that engine family inside and out. In 2004 I bought a new GM vehicle with an LS1 (third generation) V8 in it. Within 20 miles of driving that car off the dealer lot I resolved to sell off all my old iron. And I did sell every bolt.

With the chips and the metallurgy and the ongoing engineering the Gen III motor was just a better all around motor. Port fuel injection. Factory stock that thing was a beast when I beat on it, but it could also do real good on gas when I was gentle with it.

On the other hand, I only buy two kinds of clothes. I have stuff that is dry clean only, and all the rest of my clothes can be washed in cold water on regular cycle and dried in the dryer on regular/hot. I only use the 50% and 100% power setting on my microwave oven. I am opposed to ice makers and water dispensers in refrigerators. But I am married. My washing machine has many settings, my microwave probably has enough processing power to land a space shuttle, and the darn filters for the water dispenser on my fridge are unspeakably expensive. But my wife is happy. Can't put a price on that.

I do like the back up camera in my current truck, it especially nice to see my hitch and the receiver for my boat trailer on the same screen, but there is plenty of things in my SR-5 trim level Tacoma I could do without.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

In 1970, I purchased a 1963 Studebaker Lark, Taxi model. A specially stripped model. No radio, no windshield washer, no seat belts, no power steering, no rear window defrost. 3 spd on the column. Packard 6 engine got about 18 MPG. Came with a pair of extra wheels with studded snow tires and a set of chains. That ugly beast would go in the snow for sure. Sold it for $200 more than i paid because the guy wanted the engine.
In 1979, I purchased the last model Datsun 210, stripped down basic model. No ac, no radio, 4 spd manual. I put wider tires on it, had snow tires for winter storms. That car served me well until 1987 with 145K miles and still got 35 mpg. The engine and carbs were made for leaded gas. It just didn't get the mileage or run as good on unleaded, which was all I could get in 1987. I needed a tax deduction and gave it away. In 2014, my wife bought a stripped down basic Mitsubishi Mirage. 3 ctl engine and made in Thailand. Cheapest street legal car sold in America at the time. Automatic trans, AC, stereo radio with cd player and bluetooth. Rear window defroster, electric windows., USB outlets, power steering, etc. In 1979 it would have been a luxury car. And in 2014, it was only about 2.5 times the cost of the cheap stripped down Datsun I bought 34 years earlier.. The mirage still runs great at 95K miles, gets almost 45 MPG and the recommended oil changes are every 10K miles not every 5K like the Datsun.

A year ago, my wife spent bought a Toyota Highlander. Heated steering wheel, remote start, built in GPS, parking video cameras, heated seats, a sultry woman's voice that tells you to lock the doors or check the rear seat for sleeping kids, Bells that sound if you cross a traffic line without using a turn signal, exterior temperature, automatic dimming headlights, obstacle ahead or behind warning alarm, cruise control, anti skid breaks, automatic sun roof, night lights that light the ground around the doors as the key fob approaches the car., remote start, remote lock from anywhere in the world, a maintenance reminder that sends a text to remind the owner to schedule service. Separate heaters, ac and usb outlets for the rear passengers, a fold down third seat, even has a voltage inverter and 120 volt outlets. It does everything but wipe your butt. It ought to. It cost more than some people's house. Definitely not my choice. But I really did love that old Studebaker.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My first vehicle was a 1949 International KB-2 pick up. I wish I still had it. The heater worked so well that you could probably toast marshmallows in front of it. The air conditioning was great too. It was a crank on the dash that opened the windsheild. If you wanted to use the air it helped to have goggles.

[Stan Calow]

from this thread, you can see that the market for simple things is mostly old boomers who know how to do things like add without a calculator and read a paper map. We're not the target market for anything anymore. Young folks have moved on. I'll admit, I want all those new high tech safety features on my cars because there are too many crazy young drivers out there.

PS I had a 1981 Dodge w/o power windows. Three of the window crank handles came off after awhile. So old tech poorly executed wasn't always dependable.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am enjoying seeing all of the interest in hand tools here at SMC. This forum has an interesting range, from the simple hand plane and hand saw to CNC and Laser. I find it interesting that the internet is helping young folks develop their interest in traditional woodworking with hand tools. It reminds me of the popularity of The Mother Earth News in the 1970s.

[Lee DeRaud]

from this thread, you can see that the market for simple things is mostly old boomers who know how to do things like add without a calculator and read a paper map. We're not the target market for anything anymore. Young folks have moved on. I'll admit, I want all those new high tech safety features on my cars because there are too many crazy young drivers out there.

PS I had a 1981 Dodge w/o power windows. Three of the window crank handles came off after awhile. So old tech poorly executed wasn't always dependable.Even old tech well-executed wasn't particularly good. Without 20/20 nostalgia, at least some of us remember just how truly bad cars were 50 years back compared to the most basic ones available now.

Or as a coworker in 1974 said about his almost-new VW Bug, "The good news is, it's really easy to work on. The bad news is, you always have to."

[mike stenson]

Even old tech well-executed wasn't particularly good. Without 20/20 nostalgia, at least some of us remember just how truly bad cars were 50 years back compared to the most basic ones available now.

Or as a coworker in 1974 said about his almost-new VW Bug, "The good news is, it's really easy to work on. The bad news is, you always have to."

It's funny how common 100,000 miles on an engine is now. It's also funny how much more reliable in general they are.. and how often that's forgotten. Great point.

[Anthony Whitesell]

from this thread, you can see that the market for simple things is mostly old boomers who know how to do things like add without a calculator and read a paper map. We're not the target market for anything anymore. Young folks have moved on. I'll admit, I want all those new high tech safety features on my cars because there are too many crazy young drivers out there.

PS I had a 1981 Dodge w/o power windows. Three of the window crank handles came off after awhile. So old tech poorly executed wasn't always dependable.

And the people and the economy are just beginning to realize the effect. One indicator is the average person's non-mortgage non-school loan debt. The effect is that people just cannot afford to pay the high cost of having the stuff repaired. Perry Hilbert's post is a prime example. When it is more simply built (or built to be repaired) then it is less expensive to be repaired. When it is complex or has lots of bells-and-whistles, then the repair costs go up. Not just due to the cost of the parts but also for the increased time and labor. I am scared of my new (2016) truck. I know there are things on it that if they break will either break the bank or be irrepariable. This is going to be a big issue. When I am at the car dealer besides coat in hand (you can google why that is important if you don't know) my other tactics in negotiating the sale price is to stick to my planned monthly and and b**** amount the length of the loan versus the length of the warranty. My usual statement is "The included warranty s***s. I can afford to pay for the car or afford to pay to have it repaired but not both. The warranty needs to be as long as the loan." They end up throwing in a free extended warranty. Actually they charge me for it but up my trade in value to cover. If any one reviews the paperwork later it must look weird later seeing they gave $4000 for 9 year old car with 257k miles and burns a quart of oil per thousand. The fact is the economy is approaching a rude awakening.

[Jim Koepke]

Some people have difficulty with the map due to an inability to visualize the scale difference. Then of course there are those who can never fold the map properly once it is opened.

My vehicle GPS is nice but it does make mistakes or is ambiguous. It looks like it is a few years old. My vehicle shows most of the street speed limits on the display. Some of the speed limits in town have been lowered in the past few years so mine shows many incorrectly.

Google maps are also off at times. As someone else mentioned the street name being wrong. My street finally was corrected but then they have put in nonexistent roads:

476268

Google shows the road going by my house & shop to the neighbors'. It ends about where the top black line is in front of my shop. It connects to my neighbors' properties by a road along an easement at the front of my property indicated be the lower black line in the bottom half of the image.



PS I had a 1981 Dodge w/o power windows. Three of the window crank handles came off after awhile. So old tech poorly executed wasn't always dependable.

This is from one of my favorite scenes in Remo Williams The Adventure Begins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1tJOKHxezo

jtk

[Brian Elfert]

It's funny how common 100,000 miles on an engine is now. It's also funny how much more reliable in general they are.. and how often that's forgotten. Great point.

My parents had a 1977 Ford LTD II where the engine seized at 85,000 miles. My father and a friend put in a junkyard engine. My father finally retired the car at just over 100,000 miles when it started randomly shutting down on the freeway.

I would be pretty upset if the engine failed on my vehicle at just 100,000 miles. I have about 68,000 miles on a vehicle that is five and a half years old.

[Lee DeRaud]

Some people have difficulty with the map due to an inability to visualize the scale difference.
Back in paper-map days, I had visitors who booked flights into the wrong airport because they didn't realize that "the other side of town" is fifty miles away.

[Lee DeRaud]

My parents had a 1977 Ford LTD II where the engine seized at 85,000 miles.
I always thought the traditional Detroit design criteria called for the body to rust through about the same time the engine needed rebuilding.

[dennis thompson]

When I started this thread my idea was a basic car, appliance, etc.. This thread seems, in some responses, to indicate that basic equals junk, I.e. the picture of a Yugo, probably the worst car ever made. Of course I want a quality product, but just with some basic requirements, unlike the Toyota Highlander described in one response. For example I have friend,who bought a new car with what I guess you call lane control. She shut it off as it was driving her nuts yelling:) at her every minute or two.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Dennis, These are good things for me to be thinking about. I saw an Instapot on the curb last trash day. The kids thought we should have one , so we do. I like it and use it. I it will be on the curb long before our pressure cookers.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My first vehicle was a 1949 International KB-2 pick up. I wish I still had it. The heater worked so well that you could probably toast marshmallows in front of it. The air conditioning was great too. It was a crank on the dash that opened the windsheild. If you wanted to use the air it helped to have goggles.

477718 Whoops I left the AC on.

[Kev Williams]

When I started this thread my idea was a basic car, appliance, etc.. This thread seems, in some responses, to indicate that basic equals junk, I.e. the picture of a Yugo, probably the worst car ever made. Of course I want a quality product, but just with some basic requirements, unlike the Toyota Highlander described in one response...

These exist-- Like my Truck:
477727
-- bought new in 2002, options: 4-wheel drive (manual hubs), auto trans, air, cruise control... That's it. Manual windows, no carpet, AM/FM radio, no frills... Was it dirt cheap? No, but $24k wasn't bad either...

Back in 1982 I bought a new Plymouth TC3, $5250-
mine was silver-blue, and no fancy stripe ;)
477728
other than an AM/FM radio, NO options whatsoever, 2.2 4-banger, stick shift. Never had a single problem with it, sold it to a friend a couple years later who got 240k miles on before needing a head gasket. The TC3 was truly a very decent and reliable car, pretty much opposite a Yugo ;)

For comparison, 2 years later my new '84 Buick Regal Ttype Turbo cost me $15,800--
477729
Very cool, fast car, but of all the cars I've ever owned, this was the absolute winner in the 'unreliable' category. Bar none the worst car I ever owned...3x the money of the TC3, probably the best car I've owned..

That was then, but good cheap cars are still out there. Maybe not 'cheap' like the old days, even the sparsest frilled car will need expensive ABS brakes, air bags, engine control systems... And at the moment one may have to wait awhile for the worldwide logistics nightmare to wind down a bit... ;)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am in the market to replace my old truck. It's going to be a long search.

477746

[Andrew More]

I am in the market to replace my old truck. It's going to be a long search.

Guessing that has one of those fancy new electric starters. I think we should seriously consider going back to the basic hand crank starters. Sure it's a bit more work, but this electricity thing is probably a fad, and you can't depend on batteries, and a hand crank is so much more reliable.

[Mike Soaper]

The heating elements in our 20yr old 4 slice toaster were starting to fail so the toasting wasn't all that great, that and occasionally the toaster would launch a piece of toast onto the counter top.

We ordered a 2 slice wide slot toaster for homemade breads. It had a count down timer to let you know when the toast would be done, but it couldn't make a decent piece of toast. One side burnt on the edges, the other side half untoasted the other half burnt. Sent it back, the older failing one worked better.

[Curt Harms]

Some people have difficulty with the map due to an inability to visualize the scale difference. Then of course there are those who can never fold the map properly once it is opened.

My vehicle GPS is nice but it does make mistakes or is ambiguous. It looks like it is a few years old. My vehicle shows most of the street speed limits on the display. Some of the speed limits in town have been lowered in the past few years so mine shows many incorrectly.

Google maps are also off at times. As someone else mentioned the street name being wrong. My street finally was corrected but then they have put in nonexistent roads:

476268

Google shows the road going by my house & shop to the neighbors'. It ends about where the top black line is in front of my shop. It connects to my neighbors' properties by a road along an easement at the front of my property indicated be the lower black line in the bottom half of the image.




This is from one of my favorite scenes in Remo Williams The Adventure Begins:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1tJOKHxezo

jtk

I have a stand alone Garmin GPS as well as Google maps on my phone. The Garmin maps sometimes don't show roads where there clearly is one - I'm driving on it. The other thing about Garmin is they love to use local names for roads rather than route numbers. Local names that NOBODY uses. I don't know how many different roads in my area are named "meeting house road" (for the Quaker meetinghouse it led to) or "Headquarters Road" (Revolutionary war headquarters at some point). That worked fine when people seldom traveled more than 10 miles from home. It's confusing today.

[Andrew More]

Mike I thought this video on toasters was pretty good. Basically Toaster Technology peaked in the 1920s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y&t=3s) and it's been a downward slide ever since. I mean it makes sense if you think about it, you just need a way to get a couple of wires hot.

[Brian Elfert]

I have a stand alone Garmin GPS as well as Google maps on my phone. The Garmin maps sometimes don't show roads where there clearly is one - I'm driving on it. The other thing about Garmin is they love to use local names for roads rather than route numbers. Local names that NOBODY uses. I don't know how many different roads in my area are named "meeting house road" (for the Quaker meetinghouse it led to) or "Headquarters Road" (Revolutionary war headquarters at some point). That worked fine when people seldom traveled more than 10 miles from home. It's confusing today.

In 2018 I went on a long road trip with a group of friends. One of them had a fancy Garmin GPS so we used that for most of the trip. At one point we were on Hwy 99 in California. The GPS showed us driving across a field. Hwy 99 had been rebuilt and apparently shifted over 100 or 200 feet.

[Kev Williams]

The heating elements in our 20yr old 4 slice toaster were starting to fail so the toasting wasn't all that great, that and occasionally the toaster would launch a piece of toast onto the counter top.

We ordered a 2 slice wide slot toaster for homemade breads. It had a count down timer to let you know when the toast would be done, but it couldn't make a decent piece of toast. One side burnt on the edges, the other side half untoasted the other half burnt. Sent it back, the older failing one worked better.
We have one of these Cuisinart do-it-all ovens-
477776
While it's the exact opposite of the thread topic, aside from it being ridiculously fast at air-frying,
great for cooking hot dogs, re-heating fries and pizza (among other things),
since it's essentially a 'convection toaster' it even makes great toast! And just as fast as my regular toaster...

[Jim Becker]

We have one of these Cuisinart do-it-all ovens-
477776
While it's the exact opposite of the thread topic, aside from it being ridiculously fast at air-frying,
great for cooking hot dogs, re-heating fries and pizza (among other things),
since it's essentially a 'convection toaster' it even makes great toast! And just as fast as my regular toaster...

Same, but ours is a Ninja. Wonderful machine and it performs a whole lot of tasks in my kitchen. I can't even remember the last time I actually owned a normal "toster" as we switched to toaster ovens a couple decades ago and now do the Ninja Foodi that "slices, dices and julians".

[Warren Lake]

always had old vehicles like shop machinery. Last year first time 19 years the 72 pickup would not start. Figured it was the solenoid. Guys on here said loosen the nut rotate the bolt new surface so likely could have kept going. Took it in and for a new solenoid, bench test and new brushes. In on monday aft call tuesday morning first thing it was ready 90.00. newest car is 18 years old bought for good gas mileage for distance stuff.

[Jim Becker]

When I started this thread my idea was a basic car, appliance, etc.. This thread seems, in some responses, to indicate that basic equals junk, .

Sadly, in many cases that actually has come to pass. Setting aside vehicles for a moment, when it comes to things like appliances that are mass produced, quality, quality control and value have evolved to what I'll call "short term solutions". That's not actually limited to the lowest, "base" products, either. It just the way that things have evolved. For vehicles, you can still buy "base" vehicles, but they are harder to find because of low demand and even those have to meet certain safety requirements that require electronics...

[Keith Outten]

I recently called my local Volkswagen dealer and asked if they had any brake fluid hose for my 1967 VW. Nope, so I asked how long they were stocking parts for newer cars since my wife has a VW that is two years old. I was told that they carry parts for cars back to 2008 and the number of special order parts drops significantly each year. So far I can get any part I want for the 67 VW bug as long as I am willing to order them from Internet parts suppliers.

[roger wiegand]

I finally figured out that the problem with modern toasters is bagels. When all a toaster had to toast was toast (quite a sentence) the heating elements could be proximal to the thing needing toasting. With the popularity of overinflated bagels the slots had to be widened, moving the elements farther away from the object to be toasted. Since the power is limited to about 15 amps on a kitchen circuit and heat falls off in an inverse square relationship it now takes forever to toast a regular slice of bread.

Scan Ebay for a 1950's Sunbeam. They are pretty much the perfect toaster and can be found very reasonably since they sold 10 kajillion of them.



The heating elements in our 20yr old 4 slice toaster were starting to fail so the toasting wasn't all that great, that and occasionally the toaster would launch a piece of toast onto the counter top.

We ordered a 2 slice wide slot toaster for homemade breads. It had a count down timer to let you know when the toast would be done, but it couldn't make a decent piece of toast. One side burnt on the edges, the other side half untoasted the other half burnt. Sent it back, the older failing one worked better.

[roger wiegand]

Interestingly, simplicity occurs at the extremes of the market, at either the very low end to make the least expensive possible product, or at the very high end to achieve elegance in design and use (with a sometimes side effect of added robustness). The middle of the market is where "the more gimmicks the better" rules.


When I started this thread my idea was a basic car, appliance, etc.. This thread seems, in some responses, to indicate that basic equals junk, I.e. the picture of a Yugo, probably the worst car ever made. Of course I want a quality product, but just with some basic requirements, unlike the Toyota Highlander described in one response. For example I have friend,who bought a new car with what I guess you call lane control. She shut it off as it was driving her nuts yelling:) at her every minute or two.

[Roderick Gentry]

A classic example are the newfangled table saws. Classic in two ways, you can hardly have a polite conversation over the need for them. But also. they are a kludge for an old design that the EU, would have tossed decades ago.

I decided to standardize around the the old INCA, largely because it is easy to move and ultra precise. But as great as they are, they have no idea about dust collection. Which is OK for me as I move them outside. But it does go to show how expectations have risen and newer is sometimes better.

I live in fear now that the car model is moving towards you will own nothing and pay rents, even for the keys.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If the saw stop was a requirement there would more fingers in the world. My saw is an offender with no safety equipment. I do not feel great about it.

[Kevin Weller Bloomfield,PA]

I just had to pay $80 for a chip key for an f250, no fob. I wanted to start a business(not really) awhile ago making a few working man utilitarian items. A 3/4 ton farm truck, boots, a small pocket knife with GOOD steel, and I think there were some other things. At the end of the year my Iphone 5 is not going to be supported anymore. Ain't progress great. I own a '47 Willy's CJ2a. Rides like a brick, but no computers. It doesn't start either no spark or no fuel. That is great for a less than stellar mechanic. Rant over.

[Jim Becker]

$80 for that key is "cheap" compared to what many modern fobs cost to add/replace and then have programed!

[Lee DeRaud]

$80 for that key is "cheap" compared to what many modern fobs cost to add/replace and then have programed!
$175 for SWMBO's 2019 Kia Soul was my last dip into that pool.

Pretty cheap compared to the $400+ for the Boxster key/fob I got back in 2011. Bought the car used, only one key...not good. Took the local Porsche guy most of a week to get a blank and set it up (don't ask). About a week later I dropped it down between the seat and console, ended up having to remove the passenger seat to get it out. That process revealed the second key and the special "valet" key that were missing.

[Dave Zellers]

$80 for that key is "cheap" compared to what many modern fobs cost to add/replace and then have programed!


Yep. We just bought a new KIA Sportage and asked about the cost of a new fob. $450 to $500.

Unreal. Also- not sure but I don't think it's covered by the warranty.

The new cars today are computers with wheels.

[Dave Zellers]

I actually like the new car a lot but I would be all over basic appliances. It sure would be nice to have that choice. Especially if basic meant easily fixable.

[andrew whicker]

I agree that most 'simple' things (that is, less features) exists mainly in either the bottom of the market or the very top.

I also agree that most 'simple' things are, in fact, not simple. I also think people grow up with prejudices based on their experiences of a certain age.

My dad would never buy wrenches, sockets, etc but Snap On or Mac because Craftsman broke. I'm 38. I never had to buy anything fancier than Craftsman because by the time I was buying my own tools, they worked just fine (mostly - ratchets do matter).

Anyway, there are billions of examples of old timers' advice on 'good brands' or 'those things always break' that is from too many decades ago to be logically relevant. Maybe I'll be in one myself in 30 years.

[Lee DeRaud]

Yep. We just bought a new KIA Sportage and asked about the cost of a new fob. $450 to $500.
That's about what the dealer quoted us for the aforementioned Soul. The local locksmiths were much lower, only took them about 20 minutes to cut the key and program it to the car.

[Mike Henderson]

Yep. The new cars today are computers with wheels.

That is very true. I think the auto manufacturers would like them to be like smartphones on wheels.

For EVs, I saw some news that an EV manufacturer had improved the batteries (and the cooling and charging techniques) such that the batteries would last almost forever. Since there's not that much to fail on an electric vehicle, that means that an owner could cost effectively drive the same car for 20 to 30 years, if they wanted to.

The only reason you'd buy a new one is to get the new features (which there will always be) or to get more range (which will always be improved).

Mike

[Dave Zellers]

That's about what the dealer quoted us for the aforementioned Soul. The local locksmiths were much lower, only took them about 20 minutes to cut the key and program it to the car.


This is a car with key-less entry. There is a physical key inside the fob for an emergency, but I assumed the $500 to replace the fob was if the electronics inside the fob fail.

[Lee DeRaud]

This is a car with key-less entry. There is a physical key inside the fob for an emergency, but I assumed the $500 to replace the fob was if the electronics inside the fob fail.If it's anything like the Honda system, there's not a whole lot more circuitry inside than the normal lock/unlock remote fob: all the fancy stuff is in the car. The only real difference is that the fob is transmitting at a very low power level all the time, not just when you push a button.

(The one for SWMBO's Soul has a flip-out "switchblade" key, but the fob part has to be present or the car won't start.)

[Dave Zellers]

If it's anything like the Honda system, there's not a whole lot more circuitry inside than the normal lock/unlock remote fob: all the fancy stuff is in the car. The only real difference is that the fob is transmitting at a very low power level all the time, not just when you push a button.

(The one for SWMBO's Soul has a flip-out "switchblade" key, but the fob part has to be present or the car won't start.)

Yes that makes sense. Key-less means we don't have a switchblade key and just push a button to start the car. But your description of the fob as a low level transmitter is very good. I'm sure all of this is very similar across all or most manufacturers.

[Jim Becker]

Yep. We just bought a new KIA Sportage and asked about the cost of a new fob. $450 to $500.

Unreal. Also- not sure but I don't think it's covered by the warranty.

The new cars today are computers with wheels.

Warranty would cover a fob that stops working, but not for one lost. Some extended service contracts will cover one fob replacement (the Mopar contract I had on the MY12 Jeep Grand Cherokee did) but not many do. And the level of security these days pretty much means there are no non-OEM fob replacements. (Some OEM fobs cannot be reprogrammed, too, so folks have to be wary of buying "used" fobs and expecting them to be able to be programmed for their vehicle. Always verify the capability first before plunking down money for a "used" fob)

[Zachary Hoyt]

My current vehicle (aside from the bus) is a 2013 Outback that I bought last year and which only has one key. I have been careful not to lose it and so far that has worked, but there's always a chance of things going wrong. Maybe I should get a spare before I have an emergency.

[Andrew More]

The only reason you'd buy a new one is to get the new features (which there will always be) or to get more range (which will always be improved).

The interiors also wear out, and in 20 years it could be a problem. I've got an old Honda from 2006 that's starting to show it's age. Had to replace the headliner (fabric in the ceiling) a while ago because the glue started to fail. Also replaced both axels recently. The seats are still in good condition, but I'm waiting for the driver side one to wear out. I've got 200K+ miles on it, and still going strong, I'm expecting to get another 100K, which is maybe in 5 years, so I think we're already there with 20-30 year old cars, IF you want a car to last that long. Most people don't seem to want to do that for whatever reason.

I'm also reminded of the $5K electric car which is popular in China (https://carbuzz.com/news/new-5000-electric-car-is-already-outselling-the-model-3), but a lot of analytics say won't make it here because people don't want cheap, basic transportation.... (And then complain about how they're broke and can't make it in this country)

OTOH, I have to wonder what compromises have been made. My brother has a business flipping golf carts, and most of those are going for 6-8K, used, with far less body work.

[Jim Becker]

My current vehicle (aside from the bus) is a 2013 Outback that I bought last year and which only has one key. I have been careful not to lose it and so far that has worked, but there's always a chance of things going wrong. Maybe I should get a spare before I have an emergency.
If it's a fob, yea...you want to have a spare. "Stuff happens"...but you know that! :D

[Lee DeRaud]

Some OEM fobs cannot be reprogrammed, too, so folks have to be wary of buying "used" fobs and expecting them to be able to be programmed for their vehicle.
Maybe it's changed in recent years (or for some specific brands), but it's always been my impression that it's the car's entry system that is (re)programmed to recognize the fob, not the other way around.

[Howard Garner]

Yes, And if you loos one, get a replacement and get both the new one and the existing one reprogrammed, great.
Then you find the lost one - it will not work because the others were reprogrammed (2015 VW)
Howard Garner

[Jim Becker]

Maybe it's changed in recent years (or for some specific brands), but it's always been my impression that it's the car's entry system that is (re)programmed to recognize the fob, not the other way around.
There are variations on the theme for sure. In some vehicles, for example, you can add a fob, but must have the originals available for the technician to do their thing. In others, they can just add one. It varies. The worst possible case is losing all your fobs and also not having the little ID tag that came with the fobs when the vehicle was new. Ching, ching... ;)

[Brian Elfert]

The "key" for my car is an oddly shaped fob that has a rectangular stub at the end that plugs into the "ignition switch". You turn it just like a normal key, but you could use any key fob from any other Chrysler product with the same system and turn the key so far as I know, but it wouldn't start the car. I suspect there is an RFID chip or something in the fob that actually authorizes the key.

[Lee DeRaud]

There are variations on the theme for sure. In some vehicles, for example, you can add a fob, but must have the originals available for the technician to do their thing.
The Boxster worked like that: they had to erase all the programmed fobs and then add both the old and the new one. But again, it was the car getting programmed, not the fob(s).

[Mike Henderson]

The Boxster worked like that: they had to erase all the programmed fobs and then add both the old and the new one. But again, it was the car getting programmed, not the fob(s).

Since you've been through this, Lee, what has to be done to the car to reprogram the fobs for a keyless ignition? Do they have to connect their computer to the car? You want some kind of security that someone can't do it to your car while it's in a parking lot.

Mike

[Greg Funk]

Yes that makes sense. Key-less means we don't have a switchblade key and just push a button to start the car. But your description of the fob as a low level transmitter is very good. I'm sure all of this is very similar across all or most manufacturers.Tesla conveniently uses a $10 passive RFID card or the Bluetooth built in to your phone. $400 key fobs seem a little outrageous given the technology is relatively simple.

[Lee DeRaud]

Since you've been through this, Lee, what has to be done to the car to reprogram the fobs for a keyless ignition? Do they have to connect their computer to the car? You want some kind of security that someone can't do it to your car while it's in a parking lot.Oh yeah, it takes a Porsche-specific service computer that they protect like nuclear codes. There are aftermarket equivalents, but they can't do things like this. And it also required a VIN-specific unlock code from the Porsche distributor back east: the shop had to fax them my registration because I was an "unknown" owner.

On a vaguely related topic, don't get me started on how you can't buy factory service manuals anymore. For Honda, you have to pay for a limited-time subscription to the online version...and it's not cheap.

[Zachary Hoyt]

If it's a fob, yea...you want to have a spare. "Stuff happens"...but you know that! :D

I called the dealer and was quoted $250 for a fob from Subaru and $120 to program it. I guess I'll just keep on not losing my key, at that price. I've been a licensed driver for 17 years and haven't lost a key yet, but I have been told that there is a first time for everything.

[Lee DeRaud]

I called the dealer and was quoted $250 for a fob from Subaru and $120 to program it. I guess I'll just keep on not losing my key, at that price. I've been a licensed driver for 17 years and haven't lost a key yet, but I have been told that there is a first time for everything.Sounds like your dealer is charging full MSRP for the part and a full hour of labor...same as it ever was.
Check with a reputable automotive locksmith, I suspect you'll get a quote closer to half that.

[Jim Becker]

Zachary, shop around. Lee is correct that they are not only charging full boat for the fob, but also a lot of time for what doesn't take near to that to perform. But if that dealer was the one that sold you the vehicle with only one fob...push them hard about that. ;)

[Zachary Hoyt]

Thank you both for the advice. I will look for a locksmith who can do it. We're kind of out here in the sticks, but I will need to go to Syracuse to get a countertop soon, so maybe I can combine two trips into one. I bought the car from a used car dealer on eBay, which was a gamble but paid off. It came from Philadelphia and was delivered up here with just the one key. It was in better shape than I thought it might be when I bought it, so overall I have no complaints.

[Lee DeRaud]

Thank you both for the advice. I will look for a locksmith who can do it. We're kind of out here in the sticks, but I will need to go to Syracuse to get a countertop soon, so maybe I can combine two trips into one. I bought the car from a used car dealer on eBay, which was a gamble but paid off. It came from Philadelphia and was delivered up here with just the one key. It was in better shape than I thought it might be when I bought it, so overall I have no complaints.
Just FYI, you might need to wait until you have DMV paperwork (title/registration) with your name on it. The locksmith I used wouldn't do it just based on the purchase paperwork...too easy to fake, I guess.

[Derek Meyer]

I bought a 2020 Ford Edge last Summer. It had push-to-start and the vehicle must detect the key fob or it won't start. The dealer said don't lose it - replacement fobs are $800.

[Zachary Hoyt]

Just FYI, you might need to wait until you have DMV paperwork (title/registration) with your name on it. The locksmith I used wouldn't do it just based on the purchase paperwork...too easy to fake, I guess.
Thanks for the warning. I've owned the car for a bit over a year now so that shouldn't be a problem, I imagine.

[Kev Williams]

Just me I guess but it seems ridiculous that I can buy what I consider an overpriced phone 13, or a great many different varieties
of brand new laptop computers, for less than a... a... a friggin' KEYFOB?
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[Lee DeRaud]

Just me I guess but it seems ridiculous that I can buy what I consider an overpriced phone 13, or a great many different varieties
of brand new laptop computers, for less than a... a... a friggin' KEYFOB?
Then again, based on some of the things you've said here about smartphones and new computers, you'd probably get more use out of the keyfob. :)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Last evening I loved the 2010 Prius because it did not lock me out with the one and only $149.00 key fob and dog inside, even when I did my best to do so. This evening I am grumbling as I try to figure out how to unwind the electric parking brake without a service computer. I have never had a car with rear disc brakes or electric emergency drake adjustors. Thanks to the web I see that reverse polarity should unwind the bake caliper.
Our technology causes lots of problems. We are going to need really great technology to survive the problems we have created for ourselves.

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[Kevin Weller Bloomfield,PA]

$80 for that key is "cheap" compared to what many modern fobs cost to add/replace and then have programed!


Someone told me with the fob would be $350 or more. Just a key was $30 plus $50 to program it. My CJ2a doesn't even have a key.

[Kev Williams]

Then again, based on some of the things you've said here about smartphones and new computers, you'd probably get more use out of the keyfob. :)
I get plenty of use out of computers; my main gripe is the forced obsolescence built into them, and the manufacturer's ability to mess with them even though I instruct my computers to ban them from doing so.

My problem with an $800 keyfob, is: what exactly does it do that makes it worth $800? Will it tell the car to tie up and subdue would be burglars and car thieves? How about tazing these jerks stealing catalytic converters? If all these fobs do is disable the car, there's way cheaper ways to do that!

[Mike Henderson]

My problem with an $800 keyfob, is: what exactly does it do that makes it worth $800? Will it tell the car to tie up and subdue would be burglars and car thieves? How about tazing these jerks stealing catalytic converters? If all these fobs do is disable the car, there's way cheaper ways to do that!

I suppose it's all supply and demand. The number of fobs replaced each year is fairly small, I expect. If everyone had to replace their fob each year, there would be some competition in that market.

As it is, I think locksmiths can provide you with a replacement fob at a cheaper price than the dealer.

I have a real key stuck into my fob that will open or lock the doors if the battery is dead. I lost one (not the rest of the fob) and the dealer replaced it for less than $100. I thought that was expensive but the key had to fit into the fob and they were the only place I knew of to get the replacement.

I really like the keyless ignition. Push a button and the door opens and I don't have to use a key to start the car.

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

I really like the keyless ignition. Push a button and the door opens and I don't have to use a key to start the car.
The things I like most about it are (1) it's almost impossible to lose my "key" while I'm out and about and (2) it's virtually impossible to lock it inside the car.
The first is due to the fact that it never leaves my pocket except at home (or possibly the hotel room on vacation): there's no need to push a button to lock/unlock, as the car senses the fob up to about five feet away.
The second is partly due to the first, but also because the system itself simply won't let you and beeps annoyingly if you try. (We had to get one of those Faraday bags for vacations, because the car wouldn't let SWMBO lock her purse in the trunk with the spare fob in it.)

I've noticed that few, if any, of the needed replacement fobs on this thread were lost, they were missing "extra" fobs on second-hand cars. There must be a couple million $ worth of fobs sitting in kitchen junk drawers because someone sold/traded-in a car and didn't give all the fobs to the buyer. Although you'd think a dealer taking a trade would insist on it, apparently that doesn't always happen.

[Lee DeRaud]

I get plenty of use out of computers; my main gripe is the forced obsolescence built into them, and the manufacturer's ability to mess with them even though I instruct my computers to ban them from doing so.

My problem with an $800 keyfob, is: what exactly does it do that makes it worth $800? Will it tell the car to tie up and subdue would be burglars and car thieves? How about tazing these jerks stealing catalytic converters? If all these fobs do is disable the car, there's way cheaper ways to do that!
Well, as has been pointed out several times, there's a hellacious dealer markup, with cheaper non-dealer alternatives. But your $800 number is almost double the highest dealer price mentioned so far.
I have no doubt there are cars out there with $800 key fobs, but if you own one of those cars, you've been holding out on us.

[Andrew More]

My problem with an $800 keyfob, is: what exactly does it do that makes it worth $800?
Usually they're associated with cars that tell the world you're at best broke, or living in debt up to your eyeballs. :)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

There has been a Smart For Two Electric Drive car zipping around the neighborhood. I hope to find a way to test drive or ride in one of those.

[Alex Zeller]

I've heard that used car dealers keep the second FOB when they get a car with two. There's companies that sell them used that buy them from the dealers. They may not get much for a used FOB but when you have 20 a month it adds up. Most people never think twice about only getting one when they buy a used car.

[Bill Dufour]

Over thirty years ago I helped my sister buy a new Ford SUV when they were just coming out. Her FIL worked for Ford so she got the employee pricing. Too kseveral trips to talk to the correct guy. Very interesting he had a binder with factory costs and real costs for every option. This was the real price to the dealer not the "factory price". The markup on options is impressive like 50% or more.
The dealer can sell cars at cost and make $1-3,000 profit. He pays the factory cost but if he sells a certain number of cars in a given time they knock off 1-3,000. dollars per car.
They literally can lose money on every sale and make up for it with volume.
Bill D

[dennis thompson]

Interesting how my “basic product” thread has evolved into a discussion of key fobs, a perfect example of what is NOT a basic product.

[Andrew More]

Interesting how my “basic product” thread has evolved into a discussion of key fobs, a perfect example of what is NOT a basic product.

I think that's part of the discussion on some level. It really depends on how important you think anti-theft is, since that's what's driving a lot of the costs of the fob. The other stuff adds a bit of cost, but not really that much for what are essentially mass produced items. OTOH, I would totally agree that the unlock and auto-start features are a bit of complex fluff.

[Kev Williams]

I consider fobs as very much a 'basic product', boil it all down, they're simply an ignition key to start your car! ;) - and for people like me, I'd rather have a plain old car key any day...

[Mike Henderson]

At one time, a physical key was high tech. Today, keyless entry is old stuff and it's pretty secure. You can jump a key ignition, but it's tough to get around a modern keyless ignition.

I see two disadvantages of keyless ignition: 1) if your vehicle battery is dead, you need a mechanical key to get into the car, and 2) you have to change the battery in the fob occasionally.

I've been living with a keyless ignition car for 15 years and love it.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

Most keyless ignition fobs have a physical hard key inserted that can be used to open the door if necessary. Once inside, the end can be pressed into the dash button and non-powered near field recognition will start the vehicle, even if the fob battery is dead. Other features that use transmission from the fob are not going to work if the fob battery is toast, however.

[Lee DeRaud]

I see two disadvantages of keyless ignition: 1) if your vehicle battery is dead, you need a mechanical key to get into the car, and 2) you have to change the battery in the fob occasionally.
I don't know how common it is, but Honda, and at least one other mentioned in this thread, has a mechanical key embedded in the fob. Besides working the doors, you can lock the glovebox and the trunk release with it, then keep the key and give the fob to the parking attendant/mechanic/car-wash guy.

One other feature I didn't know it had until the car was a couple years old: there's a warning light/chime if the car detects that the fob battery is getting low. In any case, you can still unlock and start the car with a dead fob battery, it just requires holding the fob close enough to the door handle and the start button for the system to read the embedded RFID chip.


I've been living with a keyless ignition car for 15 years and love it.
Only 6+ years in my case, but second that.

[Lee DeRaud]

Most keyless ignition fobs have a physical hard key inserted that can be used to open the door if necessary. Once inside, the end can be pressed into the dash button and non-powered near field recognition will start the vehicle, even if the fob battery is dead. Other features that use transmission from the fob are not going to work if the fob battery is toast, however.
I type too damn slow, but I have an excuse:

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[Jim Becker]

I type too damn slow, but I have an excuse:

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Ah...a helper to insure you keep to a steady, safe pace... :) :D

Fortunately, Sammula doesn't like to type...

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[Mike Henderson]

I type too damn slow, but I have an excuse:

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That's a great picture. What's your friend's name?

Mike

[Lee DeRaud]

That's a great picture. What's your friend's name?

Mike
That's Reggie: Corgi-Cocker mix, coming up on 10 years old in June.
He somehow manages to crawl into my lap from very odd angles. :)

[Dave Zellers]

Only 6+ years in my case, but second that.

Maybe 16+ days in my case, but I'll third that. Put the fob in your pocket and you're good to go.

Yes- a mechanical key is included in our new Kia Sportage fob. Not a switchblade, you have to press a button and yank it out. Had no clue it was in there until I watched a video about the car.

Pro tip! If you buy a new car today, seek out and watch EVERY video online you can find about how it works. You will be glad you did. Then after watching all those videos, you will understand maybe half of your car's capabilities. :cool:

[Mike Henderson]

Mechanical key included in my fob, also. Forgot to mention that. Had to use it once or twice to open a door when my car battery died.

Mike

[Bill Dufour]

My wife had her SUV for several months until we releazed it only ha sone keyhole outside. So having a fob saves the maker two lock cylinders and associated linkages.
Bill D

[Alex Zeller]

Back in the day when you wanted to unlock your car you would pull your key out and stick it in the keyhole. For those down south it may seem like the perfect low tech solution but live through some freezing rain and dealing with frozen locks and you realize that some options are becoming standard now because they are almost a requirement. Nothing worse than climbing through a hatchback because that's the only thing that you can unlock.

It really comes down to how many different versions of a car do companies want to make and how much does producing said variations cost vs just making them all the same? For example, power windows. It once was an option but it's now at the point where it's actually cheaper to just make them standard. For appliances the modern fancy ones can actually do a self diagnostic check so a tech on the other end of the phone or computer and make sure the repair guy has the right part and instructions on how to repair it before heading to your house. For warranty work that's a real savings. Of course nobody expected a shortage of computer chips.

[Lee DeRaud]

It really comes down to how many different versions of a car do companies want to make and how much does producing said variations cost vs just making them all the same? For example, power windows. It once was an option but it's now at the point where it's actually cheaper to just make them standard.
I always thought the best example of that was cruise control. At some point (late-1980s?), the emission-control systems pretty much required throttle-by-wire, at which point the only added cost of cruise control was the stalk on the steering column.

All of this pared down the concept of "option list" to the point that it got absorbed into "trim level". I'm always a bit amused at the "options" listed on new car stickers, most of which are actually standard features and the remainder kick in a dozen or so at a time. The last car I ordered check-list-style was in 1981.

[Brian Elfert]

I thought electronic throttle by wire didn't become a thing for gas vehicles until year 2000 or so? Anyone remember around 2009 or 2010 when Toyota had their big recall due to an issue with the electronic gas pedal? Diesel vehicles seem like they went to electronic throttle earlier. My 1995 motorhome with Series 60 engine is fully electronic. I couldn't imagine a 40 foot cable working all that well. I rented a car in 2009 and had to drive about five hours round trip. The darn car didn't have cruise control and was miserable to drive that far! I have had cruise in every car I have owned since my first car.

Vehicles made since stability control became required pretty much all have ABS brakes. My understanding is that ABS and stability control use basically the same components so why not have ABS?

[Derek Meyer]

I'm the one who mentioned the $800 key fob. That is what the dealer told me it would cost me to replace a lost fob for my vehicle, which is a 2020 Ford Edge ST crossover. The vehicle had a sticker price of less than $50,000, so while expensive it's definitely not a high-end luxury vehicle.

My wife has a 2020 Edge Titanium (one trim model down from the ST) and hers has the same type of key fob that will also cost $800 to replace a lost one. I think the only reason they are so expensive is that Ford has you over a barrel and can charge whatever they want for them.

[Jim Becker]

Derek, I will suggest to you that other Ford dealers may not be quite so greedy for a replacement fob. Even by today's standard, that $800 is about double what most others go for at full price, etc.