Day Light Savings

[Rich Riddle]

Legislators have put forth a bill to keep day light savings in the USA in effect all year starting in 2023. No more changing back and forth...... Do you have any opinions?

[Ole Anderson]

I am all for it.

[Jim Becker]

The Senate passed it with what amounts to a unanimous action. Hopefully, it will make it into the House agenda (there is no current bill) and it's likely to pass there, too. This is one big pet peeve that nearly everyone actually agrees on! Should it clear the house and is signed by the White House, it would take effect in about November 2023. The reason for the delay is to accommodate the transportation industry, especially airlines, which have already scheduled out a long way with the current time change scenario. They actually asked for the delay because of the huge amount of work that would be required to make changes.

I'm 100% in favor for sure. Regardless of whatever reason(s) it originally came into be, I don't believe it really serves present day society very well at all.

[ChrisA Edwards]

Now they propose it.

Could have done it a long time ago so I didn't have to adjust the clock on my VCR. I managed to set it once, but then forget how to, so it was wrong for half the year and it screwed up scheduled recordings.

Progress.

[Rich Riddle]

I am in favor of it as well......no more spring forward and fall back, well after 2023. I know Arizona and Hawaii at one point did not recognize the tradition, and even some places in Indiana did not recognize it.

[Kev Williams]

It'll be all fine and dandy until working people and kids notice they're driving to work and going to school in the dark during most of the winter. And what's Arizona to do, they don't even DO daylight savings time?

I've always changed the clocks on Saturday morning. I just adjust my 'inner clock' 1/2 hour's worth on Sunday, by Monday it's like it never happened. And FWIW I work 7 days a week and have about 30 clocks to change. It's really not that big a deal!

[Frank Pratt]

I'm all for getting rid of DST altogether. I'm not aware of any study anywhere that shows a benefit. I hate it.

[Stan Calow]

Didnt they do this once back in the '70s? For the energy crisis. As I recall people hated it People complained about the darkness, safety of kids, etc.

[Ron Citerone]

I tought about the kids in the dark too, but they could just adjust school hours during the winter months to compenste I suppose.

[John E. Hobart]

Split the difference bump it up 1/2 hr. That will really get them going! :D

[Mel Fulks]

Thousands of years of careful improvements in time keeping that took careful observation, and skill. Now it’s “ let’s pretend it’s some other
time …ALL the time ! “. It gives making up stuff important status ! Now let’s change an IQ of 75 to….175 ! Why hold people
back when we could make everyone a genius in such an easy manner ? I got savage mocking for understanding and enjoying “noon marks”
and sundials !! Now it’s let’s VOTE on the time . That could make an expensive watch a useless bauble. I know this is gonna sound crazy….,but
some of us can handle concepts like choosing a line of work and when we want to do it. I’ve heard that some people sleep during the DAY
and go to a job at night ! That’s anti science time denial.

[Bill Dufour]

Alaska in winter has the highest suicide rates in the USA. Go to work in the dark. get home in the dark, get depressed. Why not share with the rest of the country. I bet the politicians think this bill will make winter days sunnier and warmer.
Bill D

[Jim Koepke]

Oregon has passed a law to stay on standard time year round. It will only take effect if California and Washington adopt similar legilation.

It would be great if we would stick to one or the other.

The human circadian rhythm is more in tune with standard time according to most of the articles on the subject.

jtk

[Jason Roehl]

I am in favor of it as well......no more spring forward and fall back, well after 2023. I know Arizona and Hawaii at one point did not recognize the tradition, and even some places in Indiana did not recognize it.

Indiana went to DST in about ‘05. Prior to that, most of the state was EST year-round, except the NW corner and the SW corner, which are in the Central Time Zone, and I think they followed DST. If year-round DST goes full time, I hope Indiana switches to Central. We’re too far west. I hate 10:15pm fireworks on Independence Day (because that’s when it’s finally dark enough).

[Edward Weber]

I was one of those kids walking to the bus stop (1/2 mile) in the dark, on our country roads with no shoulder, just a ditch. It was not fun, let me tell you.
Light, dark, it doesn't matter, the work still needs to get done. Adjust your schedule and leave the clock alone.
Pick one and stick with it, then people can find something else to complain about every six months.

[Jim Becker]

And what's Arizona to do, they don't even DO daylight savings time?


Interestingly one of the Senate folks actively spearheading this is from Arizona. They have successfully embraced the "no seasonal time change" and I doubt there will be any issue with them doing a one time sync with the rest of the country if the House passes this and the White House signs it.

[Jim Becker]

Split the difference bump it up 1/2 hr. That will really get them going! :D

I've actually had that specific thought for years now, John. Split the difference. If I'm not mistaken there's a chunk of geography in the north east maritime part of North America that's a "half hour" different.

[Paul F Franklin]

Personally, I don't care much either way. Of all the issues facing the USA, I put this pretty low on the list.

[Kev Williams]

The reason Arizona doesn't embrace DST is they don't relish the extra hour of intense summer HEAT at night. It'll surprise me if their citizens don't balk at moving the clocks ahead permanently...

Guess I'm the only one who LIKES DST...

[roger wiegand]

Very much in favor of eliminating the time change, but (as a morning person) I'd pick standard time, not daylight saving time as the one standard to stick to. Having the sun up when I want to go to bed in the summer reminds me too much of being a little kid-- except then I wanted to stay out and play.

[Jerome Stanek]

I tought about the kids in the dark too, but they could just adjust school hours during the winter months to compenste I suppose.

So the kids still have time change. I like standard time for as I am a morning person and always have been. it stays light long enough in the evening in the summer time.

[Howard Garner]

Just stay on Standard Time.
Them tell everyone to shift their start times one hour to gain the after normal work hours daylight.

Howard Garner

[mike stenson]

The reason Arizona doesn't embrace DST is they don't relish the extra hour of intense summer HEAT at night. It'll surprise me if their citizens don't balk at moving the clocks ahead permanently...

Guess I'm the only one who LIKES DST...


We will stay on Mountain Standard Time.

[Mike Kees]

I hate switching my clock. Have heard and support making Standard time the norm. Lived in the Yukon as a kid, really ridiculous there extra daylight when you already have 20 plus hours naturally most of the summer then "fall back" when daylight almost disappears most of the Winter . Winter definitely brought out the worst in some people with all the darkness.

[Mel Fulks]

When you observe a shadow thrown down by a noon mark onto to the earth ,and yet never breaking , you can look at your work and know
if you can finish it before dark, When you find that you can’t you can try to round up a neighbor or two or just adjust your plan. With
‘pick -a- time” you lose track of what is real time. I concede that the fanciful adjustable time makes it easy to forget to show up on time
for boring stuff.

[Jack Lemley]

110% in favor of DST all year!!! I detest the time change crap!!

Jack

[Lee DeRaud]

This is one big pet peeve that nearly everyone actually agrees on!
For some arbitrarily low value of "agree". Most people hate screwing around with their clocks, but I suspect if it were actually put to a vote, it would break 45% for all-year DST, 45% for all-year standard, and 10% for "Who gives a flying...".

[Bruce Wrenn]

Don't care for current start / end dates for DST. When it changes in the fall, Monday afternoon was the most depressing day of the year. It got dark before I got home - SUDDENLY! Went to rehab this morning with kids standing in the dark waiting for the bus. In winter, means they will be at school for two hours before it gets light. In evenings want to be outside doing things, but the rest of my world says go inside. Currently, contractors near house are having to delay go to work times back an hour because it's still dark. This also means workers get home and hour later, so the effect of DST is lost on them. Means families who used eat dinner around seven, are now eating around eight. If they have little ones, it's hurry up and eat your dinner, because you have to get to bed. Not much family time.

[Jerome Stanek]

My parents always like standard time as you could start picking the tomatoes earlier so you got 1 hour more work before the 3 o'clock truck would come. The truck came at 3 every day so he could get unloaded by 5. All the greenhouse people liked standard time. In the summer it stays light long enough on standard time.

[mike stenson]

I'll be surprised if this lasts longer than the last attempt at this in the US.

[Bernie Kopfer]

Yesterday a sleep expert group said that our circadian rhythms would be better served by staying on Standard time not Daylight Saving time. I think what people hate is the twice yearly change and resultant difficulties it causes. We can always hope that Congress will thoughtfully do the right and best thing for the country, but…. Don’t hold your breathe.😖

[Jim Koepke]

We can always hope that Congress will thoughtfully do the right and best thing for the country, but…. Don’t hold your breathe.

Bernie, I happen to have a bridge you might be interested in buying…

jtk

[glenn bradley]

Nationwide standards for time have occurred before. Nothing earth shaking about it for me. Standardizing is OK. Standardizing on standard time would be better. I like more early day than more late day. This would not have been so 40 years ago. Guess I'm getting old. Permanent DST should be welcome by late risers though ;-)

[Mel Fulks]

Remember ,it started out as “ British Summer Time” in World War 1. But today’s war stuff works faster! So we don’t need it !

[Ed Aumiller]

Prefer standard time, but either one ok, just hate the time changes as animals do not know the clock changed and they just get used to it and it changes again...
Pick one and stick with it...

[Jerry Thompson]

Just when I was getting a handle on setting a digital clock:rolleyes:.

[Jim Becker]

I'll be surprised if this lasts longer than the last attempt at this in the US.

There seems to be a lot more support for it at this point, both from the public and throughout the spectrum of "congress critters".

[Bruce Wrenn]

Have you forgotten that we tried this in 1974? Didn't work then, nor will it work now. We wouldn't have the time zones across the USA if it hadn't been for the railroads.

[mike stenson]

I think it lasted about 8 months? I wasn't aware, I was too young and didn't live here anyway.

[Rod Sheridan]

I save my daylight in a battery via a photovoltaic cell.

Oh, that’s not what you mean???😀

I’m ambivalent…….Regards, Rod

[Rod Sheridan]

Have you forgotten that we tried this in 1974? Didn't work then, nor will it work now. We wouldn't have the time zones across the USA if it hadn't been for the railroads.

Technically true Bruce however I would think that an agrarian society already had time zones supplied by dawn and dusk….Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

Have you forgotten that we tried this in 1974? Didn't work then, nor will it work now. We wouldn't have the time zones across the USA if it hadn't been for the railroads.

Time zones pretty much put the sun in the center. That made “bad timing “ for everyone else. And nonsense For agrarian people to make a
full day. Their 12 noon had to be REAL mid -day. That’s why they had to have “noon marks” , “pretend time” would have made them starve.
So in reality we had MORE time zones then and MORE accurate time. A consistent watch is not always mean accurate time.

To work the longest possible full day the sun has to be at zenith at your middle of the day.

[Lee DeRaud]

For agrarian people to make a full day. Their 12 noon had to be REAL mid -day. That’s why they had to have “noon marks” , “pretend time” would have made them starve. So in reality we had MORE time zones then and MORE accurate time. A consistent watch is not always mean accurate time.

To work the longest possible full day the sun has to be at zenith at your middle of the day.
That makes zero sense. To "work the longest possible full day", you just need to start at sunrise and stop at sunset. Why would you care when "noon" is?

[Mel Fulks]

If the job must be finished “today” you must have half the work done by mid-day. Farmers are good at math! People who own
fine watches sometimes don’t want to use them in the field. It was common for a farmer observing that it was noon and he had not done
half the work to ask for help. Thanks for asking the question, I was not clear. Things like an unusually early frost coming could change
priorities . I’ve seen guys get fooled by “pretend time” and scramble to get the job done.

[John Stankus]

Isn’t all time “pretend time”. It’s an arbitrary construct. I would venture that 19th century agrarians did not generally have clocks. Church’s and schools had bells to tell folks when they needed to be at services or class. A common numerical time is only needed when you wanted to coordinate activities with other folks. Time balls ( indicating local noon) were so ships could set there chronometers for navigation. If you knew your local noon AND your longitude you could work out local noon in Greenwich, and keeping that time you can tell your longitude wherever you may travel on the seas

John

[Edward Weber]

That makes zero sense. To "work the longest possible full day", you just need to start at sunrise and stop at sunset. Why would you care when "noon" is?


+1
Adjust your schedule not the clock

[Kev Williams]

And I would say that "a day" 24 hours. Or 1,440 minutes. Or 86,400 seconds. When 'the light is on' has nothing to do with it... ;)

[Mel Fulks]

No ,it’s not all pretend time. A noon mark could be a stick or tower and lots of stuff in between. It took quite a while a while for the first
clocks to get as accurate as a noon mark , indeed they were set by noon marks. I still remember being a kid often in a room full of adults
and hearing someone ask the time . I would usually hear at least 4 different answers . The almanacs still put sun stuff in because people are interested in their solar system and time keeping. Today there are still old noon marks. A nutty woman in my town found what is obviously
a noon mark in the form of a cairn. She refuses to accept what it is because she loves to get her name in the paper. Several times the
answers turned in by passers-by were nut-case stuff ….all dutifully turned in the news paper and unfortunately reported by the news paper.
We live in world with a lot of nutty people who’s off the cuff blathering is printed.

[Mel Fulks]

Decided to detail more about “nutty lady” , AKA noon mark doubter. The cairn noon mark is pyramidal and diagonal to noon sun. Shadow is
cast by the peak . It’s a big wide thing , when sun is in high summer it’s light shines on all sides and the point can not cast a shadow on to
ground. But wait ! The north corner is tucked back so it makes the shadow even though it’s only about a foot above the ground. I’ve been
there at high summer and seen it work. When I figured it out and checked it out I showed it to her. But she ain’t about to give up her
mystery. Gonna look for traces of the old ground line.

[Ronald Blue]

If the job must be finished “today” you must have half the work done by mid-day. Farmers are good at math! People who own
fine watches sometimes don’t want to use them in the field. It was common for a farmer observing that it was noon and he had not done
half the work to ask for help. Thanks for asking the question, I was not clear. Things like an unusually early frost coming could change
priorities . I’ve seen guys get fooled by “pretend time” and scramble to get the job done.

That must have been way before my time to call the neighbors in if the job wasn't going well. I grew up on the farm and my father farmed all his life and I never heard him reference anything like that. They well knew what most jobs entailed and planned for it in advance. Combining resources to make it more efficient. Steam engines and threshing machines were a common example of this. Some hauled shocks in and someone hauled water for the steam engine. Others pitched the crop in and others hauled the thrashed grain away. I remember them getting together to help work cattle or it might be pouring a concrete pad. At least this is how it was done in the corn belt. What you suggest would mean whomever you asked to help would have to abandon what they were doing to help. So then their work wouldn't get completed.

[Bruce Wrenn]

If the job must be finished “today” you must have half the work done by mid-day. Farmers are good at math! People who own
fine watches sometimes don’t want to use them in the field. It was common for a farmer observing that it was noon and he had not done
half the work to ask for help. Thanks for asking the question, I was not clear. Things like an unusually early frost coming could change
priorities . I’ve seen guys get fooled by “pretend time” and scramble to get the job done.


If they couldn't tell time, then how did they know an early frost was coming? When we were farming, most of the work got done BEFORE noon. Same in construction. Morning hours were always more productive.

[Mel Fulks]

Bruce, Funny stuff !!

[Jim Koepke]

No ,it’s not all pretend time.

The only reason for time is so that everything doesn't happen at once.
-- Albert Einstein

[Alan Lightstone]

Spent many years working in winter from dark to dark. That's what happens when you have to be at work at 6:00 am. Survived it.

Listened to an interesting podcast on this today on Freakonomics MD. Conflicting studies regarding medical, health and safety issues with our present switching system.

Oh, and they mentioned something I didn't know. It's "Daylight Saving Time, not "Savings". Who knew????

Personally, I hate the change.

[Bill Dufour]

What I hate is signs and notes that say 12:00 Am or 12:00Pm. There is no such time! Teachers in my district where told if a assignment had to be submitted by midnight set it as 11:59 PM. Or 12:01Am.
Bill D

[Mel Fulks]

What I hate is signs and notes that say 12:00 Am or 12:00Pm. There is no such time! Teachers in my district where told if a assignment had to be submitted by midnight set it as 11:59 PM. Or 12:01Am.
Bill D

yep, that’s why we have “noon”

[John Stankus]

No ,it’s not all pretend time.

Time is a construct. It only matters if people agree on the construct. If you don't have to interact with anyone else, you can reference your time system to whatever you would like. While solar noon is an easily referenced time point, but it is not a consistent point. https://earthsky.org/astronomy-essentials/years-latest-solar-noon/ Solar noon varies when compared to an atomic clock, by up to about 15 minutes over the course of a year.

I would venture to bet that now in a roomful of adults you would get a more consistent answer to what time it is, since a large number of folks are using their cell phones as their time piece (at least the under 40 crowd). The phone's time is set by the network which references a NIST atomic clock.

To rephrase the quip " You can call me anything you want, but don't call me late to dinner" ... You can call dinner time anything you want, as long as it is clear when the meal is. :-) That is as long as there is agreement amongst those using the time system, it works. Referencing solar noon is not better than any other reference point, but actually worse since it is only consistent definition along on line of longitude.

[Mel Fulks]

And “long horn cattle”, is just a construct since they are all pretty much the same size. But if you don’t have to interact with other people
or try to tell time with horn “tips” then violence can usually be avoided.

[Jason Roehl]

What I hate is signs and notes that say 12:00 Am or 12:00Pm. There is no such time! Teachers in my district where told if a assignment had to be submitted by midnight set it as 11:59 PM. Or 12:01Am.
Bill D

I’ve always known 12am to be midnight, and 12pm to be noon. If you say 12am and 12pm don’t exist, what does 12:00 mean?

[Lee Schierer]

I’ve always known 12am to be midnight, and 12pm to be noon. If you say 12am and 12pm don’t exist, what does 12:00 mean?

My computer thinks the same as Jason regarding 12:00

[Jim Becker]

What I hate is signs and notes that say 12:00 Am or 12:00Pm. There is no such time! Teachers in my district where told if a assignment had to be submitted by midnight set it as 11:59 PM. Or 12:01Am.
Bill D


I’ve always known 12am to be midnight, and 12pm to be noon. If you say 12am and 12pm don’t exist, what does 12:00 mean?


My computer thinks the same as Jason regarding 12:00

This kind of thing is exactly why I prefer the 24 hour clock... :) But that's kinda like discussing, um...metric vs Imperial I suspect. :D

[mike stenson]

I’ve always known 12am to be midnight, and 12pm to be noon. If you say 12am and 12pm don’t exist, what does 12:00 mean?

Using a 24 hour clock resolves this, at least on things like train schedules. So much easier to deal with.

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve always known 12am to be midnight, and 12pm to be noon. If you say 12am and 12pm don’t exist, what does 12:00 mean?


What I hate is signs and notes that say 12:00 Am or 12:00Pm. There is no such time! Teachers in my district where told if a assignment had to be submitted by midnight set it as 11:59 PM. Or 12:01Am.
Bill D


My computer thinks the same as Jason regarding 12:00


This kind of thing is exactly why I prefer the 24 hour clock... :) But that's kinda like discussing, um...metric vs Imperial I suspect. :D

An engineer who was a co-worker used to argue about this. His feeling was that 12:00 noon and 12:00am were the same thing. It gave me the feeling he showed up at the wrong time for something and was trying to defend his error. My point was that 12:00n and one nanosecond fell into the realm of PM. 12:00m and one nanosecond was in the realm of AM. He didn't like my reasoning.

For fun and clarity it may be better to say "high noon" or "midnight."

One of my employers was a public transit agency. Using the 24 hour clock made sense there. Though it never was natural for me. Always had to do a little mental math.

jtk

[Lee DeRaud]

For fun and clarity it may be better to say "high noon" or "midnight."
I had several coworkers who considered the phrase "high noon" to be aspirational. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

One of my employers was a public transit agency. Using the 24 hour clock made sense there. Though it never was natural for me. Always had to do a little mental math.
Growing up as an Air Force brat, I always thought of the 24-hour clock as "military time".
It wasn't until I was in grad school that I realized anybody else used it.

[Jim Koepke]

I had several coworkers who considered the phrase "high noon" to be aspirational. :)

I've worked with people like that and avoided them after "high noon" if they were operating any machinery or other dangerous equipment.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

Growing up as an Air Force brat, I always thought of the 24-hour clock as "military time".
It wasn't until I was in grad school that I realized anybody else used it.

I actually do use it 'cause I like it, but obviously have to adjust when communicating with people :)

[Lee Schierer]

The military uses the 24 hour clock to avoid confusion regarding time.

[Lee DeRaud]

The military uses the 24 hour clock to avoid confusion regarding time.
Not to mention GMT "Zulu" time...

[Roger Feeley]

Split the difference bump it up 1/2 hr. That will really get them going! :D

John,
I’ve been thinking the same thing. This is not a choice between standard or daylight times. We can choose any value between the two.

here’s a question. I would assume that somewhere in each of the time zone is a meridian that matches solar time. I found something that suggests that the match is not in the center of the zone but towards the eastern edge. If that’s the case, I wonder why. Would it also make sense to readjust the zones?

[Michael Schuch]

The last change in 2007 was a pain in the rear when the change dates went from April to March and from October to November. It made keeping old records (like medical records) a pain in the rear since GMT to local DST was no longer a straight forwards conversion. This change will be easier but still require code changes to account for the new rules. I am all for making it permanent but really don't look forwards to diving into all that old legacy code again.

[Jason Roehl]

The military uses the 24 hour clock to avoid confusion regarding time.

I use it for myself, but automatically convert for others’ sake when communicating. I’ve been doing that so long that it’s second nature.

[Rob Luter]

I was one of those kids walking to the bus stop (1/2 mile) in the dark, on our country roads with no shoulder, just a ditch. It was not fun, let me tell you.
Light, dark, it doesn't matter, the work still needs to get done. Adjust your schedule and leave the clock alone.
Pick one and stick with it, then people can find something else to complain about every six months.

Exactly my story. I live on the Western edge of the time zone and for my whole life have never awakened to sunlight on a work day or school day. In the summer it stays light until almost 11:00. When I moved to Indiana in 1994, we didn't observe DST. It was glorious. I got to wake up to the sun and birds and drive to work in daylight. It got dark at a reasonable time of night. Then a pack of idiots at the State house decided we were viewed as bumpkins for not changing, and shoved through a measure that had us join the insanity. I really think they were chapped because they couldn't get a full 18 holes in after work.

I get that those living at the Eastern edge of the zone have a completely different viewpoint. I'd hate for it to get dark at 4:00 PM in the winter too.

[Jim Becker]

I use it for myself, but automatically convert for others’ sake when communicating. I’ve been doing that so long that it’s second nature.

Ditto for me, Jason....

[Edward Weber]

If you've ever had to get up at different times during a week for a job or school or whatever, I don't think it's a big deal. You can adjust your own personal schedule much easier than changing the reference time the entire country uses.
If you normally start work at 8am for one half of the year, your boss could simply say, for the next six months we'll be starting at 9am. Doesn't sound so hard to me.
Many professions work when there's sunlight, regardless of what time the clock says, always have and probably always will. "Sun up" is at a different time everyday.
The whole concept has outlived whatever benefit it was supposed to provide. IMHO

[Curt Harms]

That makes zero sense. To "work the longest possible full day", you just need to start at sunrise and stop at sunset. Why would you care when "noon" is?

Might want to eat sometime? And whoever was cooking might want to know when you're going to appear. On a somewhat related note, where and when I grew up on a farm, the noon meal was the biggest and that made sense. Breakfast was pretty hearty too. When do most people expend the most energy? Sunrise to Sunset. Does it really make sense from a physiological standpoint to take on the majority of the day's calories in the evening then go to sleep?

[Curt Harms]

Not to mention GMT "Zulu" time...

[persnickity] I think GMT has been superceded by UTC (Coordinated Universal Time). Why it's called Coordinated Universal Time but is abbreviated Universal Time Coordinated I do not know. [/persnickety]

[John Stankus]

[persnickity] I think GMT has been superceded by UTC (Coordinated Universal Time). Why it's called Coordinated Universal Time but is abbreviated Universal Time Coordinated I do not know. [/persnickety]

Actually it was a compromise between the English speaking world, and the French speaking world
English speakers wanted CUT for Coordinated Universal Time
French speakers wanted TUC for temps universel coordonne'

UTC was the compromise


Some of the advocacy for a particular time reference point reminds me of a comment that circulated around about a proud set of parents watching their son march in a formation and declaring that out of several hundred marchers their son was the only one in step. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

[persnickity] I think GMT has been superceded by UTC (Coordinated Universal Time). Why it's called Coordinated Universal Time but is abbreviated Universal Time Coordinated I do not know. [/persnickety]
A bit like changing the name of the zero-latitude line from "equator" to "waistline". :)

[John E. Hobart]

As a ham radio operator I use UTC when logging all my contacts with others around the world. But that also entails making sure you use the correct date based on the UTC , it might be Thursday at 9:00 pm local time but Friday according to UTC.

[Kev Williams]

Just reading thru the last few of these posts and I'm LMAO; there's no such 'time' as 12am or 12pm?

Think measuring around a 1" circle, the end and beginning are both 0 AND 3.1459~ inches, which is contradictory, and yet makes perfect sense...

Reminds me of when I was trying to cancel my Talk.com long-distance account- owned by AOL- back in the '90's, they used a bogus 'time' tactic to NOT cancel your account. Goes like this:

Hello, I want to cancel my Talk.com account.
Sorry to hear that, but you can't cancel right now.
Why is that?
Because we're still in this month's billing period.
We can't cancel your account until after this billing period ends.
Ok, when does it end?
Last day of the month.

First day of the month, I call to cancel:

Hello, I want to cancel my Talk.com account.
Sorry to hear that, but you can't cancel right now.
WHY NOT?
--Because you've started a new billing period...

So basically, their contention was that right up until but not quite 12:00am on the last day of the month was the current current billing cycle,
which magically became the next current billing cycle the instant the clock passes 12...
476478
Took me 3 months and finally a nasty lawsuit-threatening letter written in 2" tall red letters to get thru to the schmucks at AOL to cancel my account or else!

THAT experience is why I know that yes indeed, 12am and 12pm DO exist! ;)

[Stan Calow]

You have to know what the initials AM and PM are short for.

[Jim Becker]

A lot about how we discuss time revolved around "convention". 12 AM and 12 PM are what they are simply because when using a 12 hour clock format for a 24 hour day, we need to differentiate them. It's just a matter of words.

[mike stenson]

This would all make for a fun RFC read.

[Curt Harms]

Actually it was a compromise between the English speaking world, and the French speaking world
English speakers wanted CUT for Coordinated Universal Time
French speakers wanted TUC for temps universel coordonne'

UTC was the compromise


Some of the advocacy for a particular time reference point reminds me of a comment that circulated around about a proud set of parents watching their son march in a formation and declaring that out of several hundred marchers their son was the only one in step. :)

Sounds like a bunch of plastic surgeons.:D

[Curt Harms]

We live in world with a lot of nutty people who’s off the cuff blathering is printed.

Or Broadcast. With a straight face.

[Bryan Hall]

100% in support of not screwing with the clocks. It messes me up terribly. For some reason I seem pretty sensitive to that time shift and I feel all out of wack for about a month after every time change.

[Steve Demuth]

Just reading thru the last few of these posts and I'm LMAO; there's no such 'time' as 12am or 12pm?


There probably wouldn't be if the cultures from which we inherit our 12 divisions of the day didn't almost all have an aversion to zero as an actual thing. 12:00AM and PM, or indeed 12:01 AM or an other time in the hour after midnight, really make no sense. Just an oddball convention because for most of the history stretching from Mesopotamia through Rome and the on to the Middle Ages and Enlightenment, the idea of a zeroth hour wasn't intellectually palatable.

I like your pi example though. I've always thought that a much more sensible scale for time, if one was starting from scratch with the knowledge humanity now has, would be pi based. A full circle is 2pi radians, so why not count time as radians past anti-meridian. Noon would then be pi o'clock, and we could run the normal workday from, say 2.00 o'clock (about 7:39AM), to 4.00 o'clock (roughly 3:16PM), for a 7 hour 39 minute work day, or perhaps 4.1 o'clock (3:39PM), for an 8 hour day.

A side benefit would be that this would give every student a jump start on trigonometry :-;.

[mike stenson]

I don't wanna do the maths for that.

and I do trig at least 3-4 times a week ;) Oh also, not all countries use a 40 hour work week, so setting the hour based on a workday would be problematic.

[Lee DeRaud]

I was told there would be no math.

But the other thing we could do as part of this is get rid of February 29th. With the pi-based clock, the obvious answer is to insert a "Pi Day" in between March 14th and 15th every four years.

[Jim Becker]

But the other thing we could do as part of this is get rid of February 29th. With the pi-based clock, the obvious answer is to insert a "Pi Day" in between March 14th and 15th every four years.

But that would destroy the rhyme that most people use to remember how many days are in each month! It would change the awkward exception list at the end... :D

[Steve Demuth]

I don't wanna do the maths for that.

and I do trig at least 3-4 times a week ;) Oh also, not all countries use a 40 hour work week, so setting the hour based on a workday would be problematic.

Less figuring than with that than with what we've got now. All times are just decimals in a pi-based system. Compare that to what we've got now: a binary (AM/PM) that is non-zero based, containing base 12 number of hours, divided into a base 60 number of minutes, divided into a base 60 number of seconds. Nothing remotely simple about that.

The problem with a pi-based clock is that you can't actually count a transcendental period of time, so the length of a day could at best be an approximation to 2pi - say 62832 "pi seconds" in a day.

[mike stenson]

Who uses 12 hour clocks? ;)

Actually, much of what I look at for time is number of seconds since 1, Jan 1970 (start of epoch).

[Lee Schierer]

I've always thought that a much more sensible scale for time, if one was starting from scratch with the knowledge humanity now has, would be pi based. A full circle is 2pi radians, so why not count time as radians past anti-meridian. Noon would then be pi o'clock, and we could run the normal workday from, say 2.00 o'clock (about 7:39AM), to 4.00 o'clock (roughly 3:16PM), for a 7 hour 39 minute work day, or perhaps 4.1 o'clock (3:39PM), for an 8 hour day.

A side benefit would be that this would give every student a jump start on trigonometry :-;.

Pi doesn't work for world time. The earth's orbit is elliptical not a circle.